Rage-Free Lash of Submission. 2k CSM

[cco]

This is a VERY long post with a lot of explanation of strategy, if you just want to see my list first and skip all the other stuff, skip to the bottom where it says JUST THE ARMY LIST.

So after deciding to get back into 40k after a year long absence, I decided to try Chaos Space Marines (should be picking some up for the holidays) I made a list and talked with some of the Chaos Marine players in the store. The list was based off of Lash of Submission and a large amount of blast templates, and they chastised me for using such a "single-minded" tactic. After some searching I've discovered that well, people don't like Lash of Submission. So I've been trying to figure out a way to make a competitively viable Lash of Submission list which doesn't centralize itself around Template Spam.

Anyways, on to the list itself.

First I need a Lash user.
Sorcerer of Slaanesh: Lash of Submission 125 points

Next up I need something which somehow benefits from Lash- I'm liking an assault unit which can charge units which are Lashed out of position. Raptors and a Chaos Lord are nice because they can counter-assault enemy units encroaching on the Sorcerer, or use their massive assault range to hit small enemy units.

Chaos Lord of Khorne: Pair of Lightning Claws, Jump Pack. 150 Points.

10 Raptors: 2 Meltaguns Aspiring Champion armed with Power Fist 250 Points
10 Raptors gives me 25 regular attacks and 4 Power Fist attacks on the charge. Meltaguns get rid of nasty things like tanks and terminators, two things which are likely to be getting close to the Sorcerer.

Speaking of the Sorcerer, it's about time he got a body guard of his own, don't you think? I decided that a nice, resilient unit of Thousand Sons was the way to go, not to mention that I can use Lash to pull enemy units into rapid fire range. A Land Raider gives me some utility shots, and rips apart mech armies, leaving the nice little infantry units inside the enemy vehicles ripe for the Sons.

10 Thousand Sons and an Aspiring Sorceror: Warptime 292 points
Land Raider: Demonic Possesion 240 Points

I still need more Troops, so I decide to fill out with some nice Chaos Space Marines.

3x10 Chaos Space Marines mounted in Rhinos: 1 Flamer, 1 Meltagun Aspiring Champion with Power Fist. Extra Armor on Rhinos 765 Points.
I now have 3 Objective Grabbing units (Thousand Sons will probably eat a lot of fire and I don't want to waste them on objectives. In Capture and Control I leave one at home and use the 3rd Rhino for Tank Shocking and the like. The Flamer is for Horde armies, which I don't have a real counter to.

Okay, I admit, the ability to cluster enemy units is too good to pass up. But to keep from running Obliderators I'm going to use something similar: Havocs.
5 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers: 155 Points

I've been considering a unit of 2 Obliderators here, but it feels like I would be ruining what this list is about.

Total Points: A clean 2,000

The Basic Strategy is to eliminate enemy transports so that the Havocs and Thousand Sons can clean up enemy units. Strategy varies depending on which army I'm facing.

JUST THE ARMY LIST
Sorcerer of Slaanesh: Lash of Submission 125 points

Chaos Lord of Khorne: Pair of Lightning Claws, Jump Pack. 150 Points

10 Thousand Sons and an Aspiring Sorceror: Warptime 292 points

3x10 Chaos Space Marines mounted in Rhinos: 1 Flamer, 1 Meltagun Aspiring Champion with Power Fist. Extra Armor on Rhinos 765 Points.

10 Raptors: 2 Meltaguns Aspiring Champion armed with Power Fist 250 Points

5 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers: 155 Points

Land Raider: Demonic Possesion 240 Points

I'm open to suggestion on all fronts, seeing as this is my first list in a long while. Just remember that the idea of this list is to use the Lash of Submission without just running Template spam, which my local gaming group HATES.

Thanks for reading!

[blackarmchair]

Wooo-whee where to begin?

Well, for starters welcome back to 40k. Always happy to add new members to the hobby.

Good news, you have a very good idea for a list.

Bad(ish) news, I think it needs some tweaking. First and foremost, you NEED 2 lash sorcerers. If your list is to revolve around such a mechanic you need some redundancy. If you want my opinion (and if you're reading this I am going to assume you do :] ) the best way to run lash sorcerers is on a bike. You can play hopscotch with squads and artificially extend the range of lash. It makes you T5, much a like a DP gives you EXCELLENT mobility and allows you to switch which squad you hide in each turn. It makes the sorcerers hard to catch and unpredictable.

Second, drop the Raptors. Raptors are...bad...just really bad. They're overcosted and underpowered. GW seems to think anything fast should be expensive regardless of how good it is when it actually gets where it's going. In this same vein, drop the Thosand Sons, they're survivable but AP3 bolters really mean nothing in 5th ed where almost every squad has a transport.

Your CSM squads look good, keep them if you like them.

You don't need a land raider. Nothing in this list is hammer-y enough to warrant transportation, if you were rocking Abaddon and slaanesh termies I could see it, but otherwise...nah.

As per your havocs, your initial assumption was correct. You want oblits.

Ok, all that being said. My roommate and I concocted a lash list a few weeks ago that actually won him a local tourney so I'll share with you how it worked and maybe you can steal some ideas.

Firstly, take those sorcerers on bikes, two of em. I've seen people advocate for daemon princes, I'm telling you right now the sorcerers are more survivable.

Consider taking outflanking chosen with 5x meltas and a rhino. Destroys ANY tank

For troops, you want mostly berzerkers. There is nothing worse to get lashed into in this codex than berzerkers. Seriously, those guys are stupid good at what they do.

For heavies you want 6-9 obliterators. Seriously, these guys do SO much damage. Lash people into a pile and shoot 3 plasma cannons per squad. Squadwipes everytime. The added advantage of obliterators is their ability to handle armour, as previously said mech is king and lash requires that you de-mech your opponent Obliterators are a great way to do this.
Consider also taking a defiler with battle cannon and 4x ccws with fleet + lash he's speedy and adds another template.

The list is mean. Obliterators hit hard and no one wants to get into cc with Berzerkers (even new space wolves and blood angels can't really handle it). Toss in a hammer unit like some khorne or slaanesh terminators and you're golden.

List looks something like this: (you can drop the chosen in favor of a hammer cc unit if you like)

+ Chaos Sorcerer [155]
- Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Space Marine Bike

+ Chaos Sorcerer [155]
- Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Space Marine Bike

+ Chosen Chaos Space Marines [185]
- 5x Chosen; 5x Meltaguns
- Rhino

+ Chosen Chaos Space Marines [175]
- 5x Chosen; 4x Meltaguns
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Khorne Berzerkers [243]
- 1x Skull Champion with Powerfist
- 7x Berzerkers
- Rhino

+ Obliterators [225]
- 3x Obliterators

+ Obliterators [225]
- 3x Obliterators

+ Defiler [150]
- Battle Cannon, 4x Dreadnought CCW

Total: 1999

[Feighan-Raask]

I'm going to agree with what blackarmchair has said...you do need two sorcerers to make this style of play work and they work best on bikes. Take Obilterators as well as these fill the role of blast weapons with the plasma cannons to take advantage of the lash's but given they are walking gun platforms they fill many other roles such as anti-tank for when you come against mech armies. swapping the landraider and havoc squads nicely lets you have 5 obliterators. Or 3 Obliterators and 1 Defiler.

As for the thousand sons...I'd keep them but see about giving them a rhino as this will make them a lot more effective early on (give the rhino a combi melta to pop a transport). Yeah they can't take out terminators but thats what obilterators are for. If you wanted them more as a holding the line role I'd take either two more units of chaos marines (which lets face it at 294 points you can nearly afford) or plague marines.

Instead of the raptors look at getting 3 man terminator units with combi-melta's/Reaper autocannons. Deepstriking these guys in will probably be more effective. Juggling the points around a bit will possibly let you get a 6th obliterator in.

Hope some of this helps

[cco]

I've been reworking the list, don't have time to post it now, but is there a way that I could keep the sons? The idea was to lash stuff into the delightful range of Rapid Fire. 20 BS4 shots that rip apart almost all Infantry seems pretty nice to me.

[blackarmchair]

Thousand Sons are really bad. For almost 300pts there are FAR better ways to pack in >AP3. Especially considering that they currently have no transport.

Let's put it this way. Assume you are able to lash a squad into 12" range (rapid-fire/assault) a squad of 10 Thousand Sons double tapping would kill about 6 marines.

On the other hand, a squad of Khorne Berzerkers with a PF champ would kill between 3-4 on his own. He costs about 65pts. 65pts vs 300pts. You do the math. Thousand Sons are fun and fluffy, and if you like them feel free to take them. But if you're trying to be competitive they're awful.

[Connjurus]

From what I can see with this list, you can accomplish something similar - and a bit more dramatic, in my opinion - with vindicators. Possessed Vindicators are 150 points a piece - 75 points cheaper than a 3-man obliterator squad - AND they instant-death T:5. Consider taking 2 Vindicators and a 3-man Squad of Obliterators to mix things up a bit. Plus, you end up saving 150 points that you can blow on other things - and while Blackarmchair is right in SOME ways about Sorcerors being more survivable - they can take advantage of cover much easier - Winged Lash Princes bring the pain in Close-combat, which synergizes perfectly with massed Berzerkers. Besides, it's pretty easy to give Daemon Princes cover saves by screening them with those berzerkers.

As far as dropping the Chosen for a Hammer-Unit...I wouldn't recommend it. This list isn't about this, and unless you're bringing Abaddon, your Hammer probably won't be as big as your opponent's.

Power Fists with Berzerkers are okay, I suppose. I personally prefer to take advantage of their Furious Charge with a Power Weapon, but to each his or her own.

Consider mixing up the firepower on the Chosen, or making one unit have Flamers instead. Also, don't forget about infiltrating a Squad of Chosen with an Aspiring Champion - in my opinion, EVERY Chaos Space Marine list needs a Greater Daemon, and what better way of making sure they get where you want them than infiltrating the choice squad of delivery into a tasty bit of terrain near your opponent's deployment zone?

[blackarmchair]

What he said.

Although I don't think I would drop any obliterators for a vindi. Although a vindicator is cheaper and has a nice blast it is much easier to silence than Obliterators. A single lascannon can take out a vehicle whereas Obliterators can easily benefit from cover, have an invuln, a 2+ save and 2 wounds. Plus they can put out lascannon shots the first turn or two while you're waiting for lash to be in range.

Oblits rock.

[Connjurus]

What he said.

Although I don't think I would drop any obliterators for a vindi. Although a vindicator is cheaper and has a nice blast it is much easier to silence than Obliterators. A single lascannon can take out a vehicle whereas Obliterators can easily benefit from cover, have an invuln, a 2+ save and 2 wounds. Plus they can put out lascannon shots the first turn or two while you're waiting for lash to be in range.

Oblits rock.

My Obliterator Lascannons NEVER do anything. ANYTHING. Thew few that hit never do anything. I know the Mathhammer say they should be popping light vehicles and monstrous creatures with no problem, I think the most I've ever done with them in a turn was pop a Vendetta.

[blackarmchair]

Well of course personal taste/luck factors in.

Still killing a Vendetta is full of win and is an event worth smiling over. That thing is ridiculously undercosted, silencing it is a good thing.

[Connjurus]

Oh, it definitely made me smile. It exploded and killed like half the Vets beneath it. Just pictured it landing on them.

I just seem to have better luck with Vindis, though...I park them behind Abaddon's juicy Land Raider until the time is right.