Chaos Space Marine Chosen & Infiltration

[BlueRonin]

I was looking at a list and saw Chaos Space Marine Chosen listed with 4 Meltaguns mounted in a Rhino. Now there were still heavy support options left in the FOC, so I was wondering why the list designer had used Chosen instead of Havocs.

Then it occured to me that I was assuming that the Chosen's ability to Infiltrate is lost when mounted in a Rhino, yeah? I took a look in the Codex and couldn't find the usual "ability to Infiltrate is lost when mounted..." disclaimer. Am I still missing something, or can a unit of Chosen actually use their Infiltrators special rule even if they have taken a Rhino?

[firestorm]

Wow, I've never noticed that before, but you're right... what a tremendous oversight!

I'm obviously not a power gamer, or someone who is unscrupulous about exploiting rules loop-holes, because I haven't noticed that at all in the two years I've had the current Chaos Codex.

I'll have to try it out before they correct it...

[MUMBLES]

They still get the infiltrate rule, but all it allows is for them to outflank if they want to. For infiltrate, you look in the BRB pp 75. "If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport, it cannot infiltrate."

However if you wanted to, you could infiltrate the chosen, and set up their transport as per the normal rules. You just can't put any other unit inside that rhino during deployment.

[BlueRonin]

Yeah, that's what I was assuming too, due to the text of the USR; but I still feel it is an oversight that mounted Chosen held in reserve can outflank.

In this case, it explains why the list had mounted chosen w/meltadeath instead of Havocs, at least

[Jwolf]

Only Scout transfers to the vehicle. Mounted Chose can't Outflank, as the unit entering play (the Rhino) does not have the ability to Outflank. This is much like the step-child of the "only ratlings and Al'Rahem can outflank in Valkyries" argument. Both are based on bad reading skills, and not supported by the rules.

[Culven]

While Infiltrate won't transfer to the Vehicle in the way that Scouts does, the Outflank rule rule still allows the unit to Outflank in their Dedicated Transport (last sentence of the Outflank rule on page 94).

[Jwolf]

It does. But I don't agree that that this applies to dedicated transports that are not themselves eligible to outflank. (thus only scouting models OR Al'Rahem Chimeras, more or less).

[Culven]

It does. But I don't agree that that this applies to dedicated transports that are not themselves eligible to outflank. (thus only scouting models OR Al'Rahem Chimeras, more or less).

Why not?

The rule refers to "such units" (refering back to the previous reference of ". . . units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules. . ."which are "picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport". There is no qualifier that the Transport must have the USR. Therefore, it would seem that the rule is stating that a unit with Infiltrate and a Dedicated Transport may Outflank and enter play embarked in their Transport.

[Jwolf]

Because the Scout USR has a call-out for the transport gaining Scout, which makes the Outflank rule consistent if the transport Outflanks with it's troops inside. I'm not clear where the oversight is, but I don't find the language clear enough to allow what I perceive as a signifcant advantage (to armies that I play).

[Culven]

I think that the difference between Scout being conferred and Infiltrate not has more to do with allowing the Transport to make a Scout move and not permit the Chosen Rhino to Infiltrate, but allow either to Outflank. I think that the rules are clear, the fluff makes sense, and an Outflanking unit in a Transport isn't really overpowered.