The thing is, because of "case law" legislation doesn't NEED to be updated. the precedent is set and that is just a strong or stronger that legistlationQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfshade
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The thing is, because of "case law" legislation doesn't NEED to be updated. the precedent is set and that is just a strong or stronger that legistlationQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfshade
surely they must re do the entire thing nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Gotthammer
Oh I know that it doesn't need to be, but it would be much easier if it were. That way when you start any preceedings you would be comparing law and relevant case law and it would be altogether. Rather than getting the law as wrote and then searching in a large pit for any relevant case law which may or may not be over looked (deliberately or otherwise).
That was the prosecution. The chief prosecutor is president of a group that raised money for Darren Wilson. Basically every analysis of the prosecution by bar associations and legal experts has said it was almost as if given by a defence attorney.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfshade
http://40.media.tumblr.com/40e38e15a...lkgo1_1280.jpg
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(Civil rights attorney/MSNBC legal analyst Lisa Bloom)
Not only all that but the police said Mike Brown was 35ft away from Wilson when Wilson shot him, thus as he "charged" he feared for his life. [URL="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/20/1346374/-BREAKING-VIDEO-Police-Lied-Mike-Brown-was-killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV"]He was actually 148 feet away.[/URL]
More on the "prosecutor":
Also note that despite being called a trial it wasn't to find Wilson guilty or innocent, but to determine if there was enough conflicting evidence requiring deliberation, or direct evidence of a crime being committed. Most Grand Jury trials take a day or less, have half a dozen witnesses and do not have the defendant present. This one took 25 days, had 80 witnesses, and Wilson was interviewed for four hours alone.Quote:
One might give McCulloch (the prosecutor) the benefit of the doubt, if not for his background. His father was a police officer killed in a shootout with a black suspect, and several of his family members are, or were, police officers.
His 23-year record on the job reveals scant interest in prosecuting such cases. During his tenure, there have been at least a dozen fatal shootings by police in his jurisdiction (the roughly 90 municipalities in the county other than St. Louis itself), and probably many more than that, but McCulloch’s office has not prosecuted a single police shooting in all those years. At least four times he presented evidence to a grand jury but — wouldn’t you know it? — didn’t get an indictment.
One of the four: A 2000 case in which a grand jury declined to indict two police officers who had shot two unarmed black men 21 times while they sat in their car behind a Jack in the Box fast-food restaurant. It was a botched drug arrest, and one of the two men killed hadn’t even been a suspect.
McCulloch at the time said he agreed with the grand jury’s decision, dismissing complaints of the handling of the case by saying the dead men “were bums.” He refused to release surveillance tapes of the shooting. When those tapes were later released as part of a federal probe, it was discovered that, contrary to what police alleged, the car had not moved before the police began shooting.
Also also out of around 100,000 grand jury trials only 100 or so have not gone to court. Except in the 81 involving police, where only one has proceeded.
Blimey. Surely that is sufficient to be a miss-trial?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotthammer
it will always be far more important to them that police officers can kill people freely, than victims get justice. they will have been worried that if Wilson were prosecuted, the floodgates would open and police would have to do things like use reasonable force, or think about their actions. that might make them hesitate to kill, and people would therefore worry about their safety. it is the same with Zimmerman, far more important that stand your ground laws remain than a victim gets justice.
No, because it's not a trial as one usually thinks of it to determine innocence or guilt, but more like a committal hearing to determine the strength of the evidence that there is a reasonable case to go ahead with. I believe the US is the only country to still use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfshade
What worries me in cases like this or the Mendez trial in the uk. Even where there aren't any procedural issues, there is always the feeling that the establishment will protect the establishment and so there will be those who do not accept the outcome of the trial even if it were without controversey.
I am not sure in such occassions what can be done. Well other than making sure every trial is transparent and everything is proper.
clearly in America they always willQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfshade
Considering the riots I would say it doesn't mater what the cases out come is as this would of hsppend regardless.
Yeah, it would either be because of the miscarriage of justice with the cop being a scapegoat or because of the miscarriage of justice with the cop getting away scott free.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tiger88
but if you look at the rioters, according to police reports of arrests since the shooting, most of those rioters arrested are white and from a different town. almost as if they are using the unrest as an excuse. obviously that is not always the case, but the people who are using the riots as an excuse to condemn the black community are ignoring the activities of the kkk etc. who are there.
Also that there is a whole load of video footage showing police firing rubber bullets and teargas at peaceful protesters (including people trying to help a woman who'd had a heart attack), firing teargas into residential areas, fires being started not by riots but by teargas cannisters shot into cars, police surrounding protesters on all sides then telling them to disperse (what first amendment lol) or be arrested but not letting the protesters through their lines etc etc.
yup, not to mention hiding their identities, harassing journalists, doing everything they possibly can to obscure the truth.
The 'rioters' also torched Mike Browns church. Why on earth would supporters of Mike Brown torch his church? It is however a long established KKK tactic, and the current head honcho of the KKK admitted to having links with Ferguson police on television before backtracking and trying to say he had friends who knew people.
The decision not to indict was never in doubt, people on social media have been talking about it and the prosecutors links to Ferguson police for over a month. The riots didn't erupt when the decision came down, they erupted when police attacked the peaceful vigils and protests.
For a slight change of pace, I am cleaning someone else's code up and I have discovered the following:
There is an object called 'mlp'
A Variable called 'fltrshy'
Feeling crap today. And took the day off work.
Still full of bogies and Bleurgh.
Currently building Nurgle models in the hope I can appease Grandfather.
[url]http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2nbuxe/ferguson_decision_megathread/[/url]
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-missouri-town-under-siege-after-police-shooting.html?_r=1[/url]
[url]http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html[/url]
Time to insert some much needed musical propaganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychosplodge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc-v8CFJzu4
Cheers! :p
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Surely thou jest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten
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Yes indeed. Not a trial and only used to determine if there is a sufficient reason to have a trial. The prosecutor has almost complete control over what is presented to the Grand Jury so they can basically determine the outcome before it even starts. This was nothing more than a dog and pony show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotthammer
Believe it or not, when a grand jury spends nearly a full month interviewing over 60 witnesses and all the physical evidence the can find and release a detailed 4,800 page document containing all the testimonies and evidence, they generally don't reverse their decision due to a few politically motivated tweets.
That said, this was only one of several investigations. The FBI is independently investigation this as a civil rights case, and the local prosecutor has nothing to do with that one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
(Language warning)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
False. The owner of the store has said that while he did argue with Mike Brown over some cigarillos they were not stolen, Brown paid for them, [URL="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft"]and he never called the police[/URL].Quote:
11:54 a.m. Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson leave Ferguson Market and Liquor. Surveillance video shows Mr. Brown stealing some cigarillos. They walk along West Florissant Avenue and then in the middle of the street on Canfield Drive.
Which makes this:
A complete lie. In fact the Ferguson police chief retracted his statement Wilson knew of the theft (which didn't actually happen) and said the traffic stop was because "they were walking down the street blocking traffic".Quote:
He sees that Mr. Brown fits the description of a suspect in a convenience store theft.
You also seem to think the medical records don't show that Wilson had been struck, or know anything about the actual timeline of events based on the physical evidence. It's easy to be right when you believe only what you want to hear. I'm going to generally believe the NY Times over someone who pulls their opinions from heavily biased sources and who made up their mind on guilty long before seeing any evidence. You want to convince anyone? Don't quote some random person's snarky tweet. Make the effort to read the grand jury document and explain, in great detail, using verifiable sources that are as unbiased as possible.
Edit: though I think you are correct that they didnt call 911 at the store and wilson had no knowledge of the robbery. So that is one minor error. The grand scheme of events in that article is pretty strongly backed up by the physical evidence and several eye witness testimonies.
This case doesn't bother me as bad as the guy the police shot and killed in the Wal-Mart here in Ohio or the 12 year old that was shot and killed in Cleveland. Both of these were on video and in both cases the official police report does not match the video evidence. And no big surprise... nothing happened in either case. Plus I'm still plenty pissed that the idiots in Washington are handing out military grade equipment like candy. Who the hell thinks it's a good idea to give Barney Fife a tank and an assault rifle?
I thought the FBI case was independent of a civil case?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
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Yeah I saw that one, pretty stupid all round if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 40kGamer
Shooting the poor kid was insane, but at the same time, that looked like a very realistic toy to me
EDIT: Wait, did any of you read anything from the evidence transcript?
just in case you missed it
[url]http://www.nola.com/news/ferguson/ferguson-all-1.pdf[/url]
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yeah, that seems nuts, aren't sheriffs elected? who wants an elected official running around with that kind of hardware, seems like a good way to create fiefdomsQuote:
Originally Posted by 40kGamer
Force Awakens trailer should be going up tomorrow.
I R EXCITE!
hold on while I fetch you a nice pair of massive irony blinkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
The federal civil rights violation investigation is a separate case for what it's worth. They are more for appeasing the masses until things calm down. And you are correct that sheriff's are indeed elected officials. I'm far from amused with them having military grade equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
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It did look pretty real. Supposedly in the 2 seconds it took the officers to shoot and kill him they ordered him to drop it and get on the ground 3 times. They must talk like an auctioneer to squeeze that into 2 seconds. The thing that is most disturbing is that if any other citizen pulled any one of these stunts they would be prosecuted. They may get lucky and not go to jail but they would have to answer for it in court... with all of these cases, all you hear are crickets.Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
Sure, its like the OJ Simpson case.Quote:
Originally Posted by 40kGamer
As far as I am aware the actual release of the evidence (and the quantity released) is almost unheard of, almost like they we're going out of their way to ensure that people dont have to just rely on other media.
I want to see the split of what the jury voted for but I doubt we ever will (though that my do a lot to shut people up either way)
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eh, theres nothing I can really say to that, I'd imagine that independent investigations are undertaken, but I honestly couldn't say (we have coronial inquests in australia.)Quote:
Originally Posted by 40kGamer
Remember that the stupid can go both ways.
[url]https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25508873/police-shooting-arrest-outrage/[/url]
THAT^ that is just ****ing stupid, disrespectful and a good way to ensure next time that the hostage is hurt.
I haven't actually said whether or not I believe the officer should have been indited, whether the department should be sued for mishandling the case, whether or not this was a racially motivated thing on behalf of the officer, etc. I've only stated that based on the politically charged rhetoric that gotthammer has ben basing her argument on, that she is basing her response an an emotional kneejerk while selectively picking fact to support her argument rather than taking a logicl and rational argument. And that I find the NY Times and the grand jury documents to be a more reliable source than what she has posted. Doesn't mean she's wrong, just that she needs to slow down and take a bit of time to really look at all the evidence and do a better job of presenting her argument as unbiased and objective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten
Even the fake that got posted got me excited.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mystery
Yeah, unions here tend to be kind of messed up. Like, teachers unions don't care about teaching students, just making sure you can't fire teachers ever no matter how terrible they are. Teachers unions have been as much of an obsticle to education reform as budget cuts.Quote:
THAT^ that is just ****ing stupid, disrespectful and a good way to ensure next time that the hostage is hurt.
Actually that story is the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
Police officers shot a man while he was taking a person hostage at knifepoint. Man died, police were immediately arrested and treated generally like ****. Union is are demanding answers for why they were treated this way
Quote:
The WA Police Union is demanding answers to why four of its members were arrested and detained for up to 13 hours like “criminals” after last Saturday’s fatal shooting in Carlisle.
I posted the video of Mike Brown paying for his cigars in the feminism topic. The Ferguson police deliberately edited that out. Even if he had stolen them all that says is you think its ok for a white cop to execute a black man in the street over the theft of something worth a few dollars.
Oh, well, ignore me then. Thought it was the 12 year old kid with the toy gun thing.
Huh, coulda sworn that the story was the police didn't know about the cigar thing, so how could he have been executed by police for it? Maybe it's those mind reading brain wave scanners cops have. The officer drove by, saw brown had paid for his cigars, so he whipped out his pistol and shot brown. Then punched himself in the face, rubbed blood on his clothes and the door of his patrol car, and called it in as self defense after bribing some of the witnesses to testify on his behalf?Quote:
I posted the video of Mike Brown paying for his cigars in the feminism topic. The Ferguson police deliberately edited that out. Even if he had stole them all that says is you think its ok for a white cop to execute a black man in the street over the theft of something worth a few dollars.
And here's a forensic pathologist (you know, an expert) saying why Darren Wilsons defense is bull****:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLrD5ojv21c
yeah cool so your thoughts on the testimony of people with mike brown at the time? Who were also with him later?Quote:
Originally Posted by eldargal
You mean the witnesses whose stories consistently said that Mike Brown ran from Darren Wilson, turned and raised his arms and was then shut multiple times in the chest and head? In direct conflict with Darren Wilson who claimed Brown charged at him before he opened fire? Witness accounts that are consistent with the forensic evidence in contrast to Wilsons'?
They sound fairly reliable to me.
Going to point out that the American Bar Association also thinks the failure to indict was absurd, but what would a prestigious one hundred and fifty year old association of lawyers know about it?
so yeah, thanks for making my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by eldargal
So its a CLUSTER ****, you have witnesses contradicting each other all over the place.
I mean seriously, where do you get off chopping and choosing whatever parts of witness testimony you want?
whose more believable, the store owner, or the guy standing next to him?
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You know what screw it, You wouldn't have been happy with anything less than first degree murder.
EDIT:Yes, I KNOW. And if he had been indicted and then found not guilty at trial you would again be screaming insults and profanity about "****ing white males"Quote:
Daboarder, you clearly have no ****ing clue what you are talking about, so just stop. This wasn't about finding Wilson guilty of murder, it is about whether there was grounds to send him to trial which there was according to the ****ing American Bar Association who know more about American law than you ****ing do.
The witnesses statements were broadly consistent with one another and the forensic evidence, it should have gone to trial which is what the grand jury decided was unnecessary. Something they do in 0.004% of cases put before them. Also the prosecutor has KNOWN ties to Ferguson police, is KNOWN to be involved with a fundraiser for Darren Wilson, and has been condemned by the American Bar Association for not doing his job properly.
Darren Wilson referred to Brown as 'it' 'beast' and 'demon' in his statement, that doesn't sound racist at all though?
Mike Brown was unarmed. This is fact. Mike Brown did not attack Darren Wilson. This is fact. Mike Brown fled from Darren Wilson. This is Fact. Mike Brown committed no crime. This is fact. Mike Brown was shot multiple times in the chest and head while unarmed after fleeing and offering no aggressive action according to all the eye witnesses. This is fact.
It should have gone to trial, it is simple as that. It didn't because nine white people on the grand jury decided it was fine for a police officer to murder an unarmed, innocent black man who was fleeing from him.
The situation is not complex, the onyl people who think that are white people who care more about the reputation of a white police officer than the life of the teenager he gunned down in the street.
Daboarder, you clearly have no ****ing clue what you are talking about, so just stop. This wasn't about finding Wilson guilty of murder, it is about whether there was grounds to send him to trial which there was according to the ****ing American Bar Association who know more about American law than you ****ing do.
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The shop owner said there was no robbery, I'm inclined to believe him so you are literally making no ****ing sense.
Honestly the mental gymnastics white boys will do to justify the murder of black people never ceases to amaze me.
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Ok let me explain some more:
The point of this case going to the grand jury was to decide whether there was a reason for it to go trial, or if there was clearly no case to answer. There is a clear need for more investigation, I think you can agree since 'contradiction' seems to be a thing you're going for at the moment. The grand jury decided Wilson had no case to answer, no need for a trial.
So let me ask you this:
Given that in a case where a police officer gunned down an UNARMED black man who had committed NO CRIME the police officers testimony is contradicted both by the eye witness accounts and the forensic evidence, do you think there should have been a trial to establish guilt or innocence?
Yes or no. Should there have been a trial.
I say yes, the American Bar Association say yes, many, many other experts say yes.
It's not about declaring him guilty, its about whether it should have gone to trial. THAT is what is in dispute here.
Ummm what?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
I've never denied Wilson was struck, or that there was a confrontation, or even that Mike Brown was possibly even in the wrong in this part of the confrontation. What I have questioned is the fact that the Ferguson police have repeatedly been shown to change their version of events (robbery, not robbery. Shoplifting, not shoplifting. Brown was armed, not armed), failed to interview eyewitnesses, lied about facts (they have insisted for the entirety of it that Mike Brown was 35 feet away when killed, when the fact is he was over 130 feet away), and attempted to suppress any coverage of events - this is the police force who attempted to get all reporters confined to a "second amendment area" and teargassed ones who left it; covered their badge numbers; grabbed people off the street and held them without charge, saying to protest leaders they would be released without charge if the protesters dispersed.
No reason to go to a full trial?
https://31.media.tumblr.com/6d7df953...v3ro1_1280.png
https://31.media.tumblr.com/ee11a13d...hnio1_1280.jpg
While a Ferguson resident will lose an eye after being hit with a rubber bullet:
http://www.saycheesetv.com/wp-conten....jpg-large.jpg
Lets sum this up with a picture shall we?
[URL=http://s1358.photobucket.com/user/White_Tiger88/media/ayp1ezy_700b_zps6d74dbeb.jpg.html]http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6d74dbeb.jpg[/URL]