Off-Topic III: The Revengening!

Yup people don't realise that Feudalism was based on reciprocal benefits and a noble with more peasants had more productivity through a larger workforce. You treat them like poop and they left for the nearest friendlier noble and boosted their productivity instead. You looked after the peasants, you prospered.

I do tihnk capitalism is fundamentally the best economic system developed to date because it produced unprecedented growth, the trouble is the way it implemented. It NEEDS effective and efficient regulation, not to stifle growth but to prevent greed overpowering everything else.

Edit: Also there are issues related to forcing capitalism on non-Western countries in the name of development which ultimately ends up making us lots of money and keeping them impoverished because their guvmint doesn't have the experience or institutional rigor to stand up to big business. Hell we struggle to do that and we expect some poor developing nation to do it? Ridiculous. But its ****ing up a lot of poorer countries.

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

Oh we're not at all far from Feudalism when the majority of working age adults rent their property.

Only trouble is, those at the top have shirked off the responsbilities of the olden day Nobles (like keeping the land safe and secure etc).

Saddest thing? It's the post-war generation dismantling the very system their parents set up and fought for. It's pathetic.

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The most pervasive attitude in the US is "if I have mine, screw you!" True for healthcare, pensions, wages and on and on.... Mass selfishness and apathy is why the privileged few get away with murder. So frustrating.

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Originally Posted by DWest

This is actually a bit of a red herring; North Dakota is currently experiencing a huge boom in shale gas extraction, and their growth is being fueled entirely by the construction of well and housing for the workers moving in to the area, which are one-time purchases.

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The whole thing is a bit of a red herring. I quoted the graphs for employment figures in post #[URL="http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41512-Off-Topic-III-The-Revengening!&p=441504&viewfull=1#post441504"]5390[/URL]

It isn't exaclty strong evidence for or against it. Economics are far too difficult to work out than just saying broad brush statements.

Yup, blame Ayn Rand...

It's even sadder when the little man echoes the big man :( I mean I get the people up top wanting to stay there. That's perfectly natural.

But the level of subtle oppression workers are subjected to is horrendous. I know this is a lazy, hackneyed target but take Oil companies 'What's that? We've only made £2.2 billion in profit? We were wanting £2.3 billion! There's only one thing for it. We'll have to cut jobs, because reasons.' So depressing.

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Originally Posted by eldargal

I do tihnk capitalism is fundamentally the best economic system developed to date because it produced unprecedented growth, the trouble is the way it implemented. It NEEDS effective and efficient regulation, not to stifle growth but to prevent greed overpowering everything else.

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Totally agree that Capitalism needs serious regulation to prevent wealth pooling at the top amongst other things. Also Capitalism is a horrible thing to apply to Healthcare. There is no way it can work for something that is literally a matter of life and death for people. Talk about an inelastic product! Also, I don't know if anyone has ever done a psychological profile of the wealthy but I suspect it would turn up deeply disturbed individuals.

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Originally Posted by eldargal

Yup people don't realise that Feudalism was based on reciprocal benefits and a noble with more peasants had more productivity through a larger workforce. You treat them like poop and they left for the nearest friendlier noble and boosted their productivity instead. You looked after the peasants, you prospered.

I do tihnk capitalism is fundamentally the best economic system developed to date because it produced unprecedented growth, the trouble is the way it implemented. It NEEDS effective and efficient regulation, not to stifle growth but to prevent greed overpowering everything else.

Edit: Also there are issues related to forcing capitalism on non-Western countries in the name of development which ultimately ends up making us lots of money and keeping them impoverished because their guvmint doesn't have the experience or institutional rigor to stand up to big business. Hell we struggle to do that and we expect some poor developing nation to do it? Ridiculous. But its ****ing up a lot of poorer countries.

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Initially yes, but I think that capitalism cannot work ultimately.

At the moment what capitalism shows us is that the rich get richer by exploiting the resources of the poor. Ultimately, in this global economy the rich get richer the poor poorer until the poor can't afford the buy from the rich so the rich have no market. A "good" war is a great way to mix things up a bit, (social mobility post wars is massive) and re-distribute wealth and resources. Ultimately, if we are to get to a true balanced economy you end up doing things "not-for-profit" and end up with a pure communist system (not marxist or lenin/stalin/mao communisim) but a true form where things are done for the benefit of the society and everyone is a little cog in the machine.

You know, like how in Star Trek the UFP has no currency and people's main goals seem to be to fulfil themselves. Though there are merchants and it has always bugged me how the star fleet on DS9 got lattinum to start trading. but we won't look too deeply at that.

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

It's even sadder when the little man echoes the big man :( I mean I get the people up top wanting to stay there. That's perfectly natural.

But the level of subtle oppression workers are subjected to is horrendous. I know this is a lazy, hackneyed target but take Oil companies 'What's that? We've only made £2.2 billion in profit? We were wanting £2.3 billion! There's only one thing for it. We'll have to cut jobs, because reasons.' So depressing.

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One thing I have seen working with companies is that the workforce ultimately takes on the personality of the top. I suspect this is through the hiring process as the top people choose candidates that reflect their personality. I also think the 'market' has unrealistic expectations of companies. Just like this year's GW report... it may be a signal of problems that need addressed but acting like they committed a crime by just making a few million is pretty extreme.

Healthcare shouldn't be entirely 100% privatised. Done so, it simply spirals in terms of costs, driving up premiums universally. Effectively, the hospitals and insurers can form little cartels, because it's pay their prices, or you know. Die.

Here in the UK? I've benefitted on many occasions from the ministrations of the NHS. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the NHS.

Yes, the old girl is battered and not quite working as well as you might want. There is too much middle management etc going, and the whole system could do with a bit of streamlining (sorry, no nose jobs/boob jobs etc any more).

So I'm doing my bit. I've got private healthcare through my employer. All I need trouble the NHS with is a referral from my GP, then it's off to a private hospital removing me from the queue, and letting the NHS deal with someone who doesn't have the option I have :)

I think the key is having a capitalism economy, not a capitalist society. Not everything can be run for profit, some things need to be run regardless and the cost absorbed and ultimately paid for through taxes. Education, health, etc. So you have a basic core of essential services that produce intelligent, well rounded, thoughtful people who can then make money and pay taxes knowing those taxes will be used to maintain a society that actually thinks of them as people not automatons to work for the ultra rich.

I certainly agree the current trend in capitalism is not sustainable. But there is a reaction against it happening even at a corporate level with an increasing focus on ethical business practise.

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Originally Posted by Wolfshade

Ultimately, if we are to get to a true balanced economy you end up doing things "not-for-profit" and end up with a pure communist system (not marxist or lenin/stalin/mao communisim) but a true form where things are done for the benefit of the society and everyone is a little cog in the machine.

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The problem with any system is that people are flawed creatures and the select few that feel the need for power will do anything to have more than their share of the pie. They can justify it however they please but ultimately every system will face serious internal threats to it's survival. Whether it is successful at defending against these threats is completely up to the masses, most of whom will likely be ignorant of the issues to begin with. Who would have guessed that the practice of "Bread and Circuses" would still endure after so many centuries.

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Originally Posted by Wolfshade

Though there are merchants and it has always bugged me how the star fleet on DS9 got lattinum to start trading. but we won't look too deeply at that.

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Being a non-Federation outpost, they likely got an allowance from the Federation to enable them to properly interact.

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Originally Posted by 40kGamer

The problem with any system is that people are flawed creatures and the select few taht feel the need for power will do anything to have more than their share of the pie. They can justify it however they please but ultimately every system will face serious internal threats to it's survival. Whether it is successful at defending against these threats is completely up to the masses, most of whom will likely be ignorant of the issues to begin with. Who would have guessed that the practice of "Bread and Circuses" would still endure after so many centuries.

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Oh yes I totally agree, hence I do not think it will be in my time or indeed my childrens or even great grandchildren's life time.

For any kind of communism to work, you need an abundant society, where the basic needs of all (food, water, shelter) are all comfortably met. Now we're currently capable of doing that. Except for Capitalism. Yay!

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Originally Posted by Wolfshade

Oh yes I totally agree, hence I do not think it will be in my time or indeed my childrens or even great grandchildren's life time.

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Sadly I agree. Barring the total collapse of the national economy, which would lead to unimaginable chaos, we won't see any real change in our lifetime. This leaves a person in the undesirable position of needing to game the system to have a better life... The hundreds of thousands of pages of laws and tax codes benefit the wealthy just as much (if not more so) then they limit them.

Attachment 10388

Well yes, going back a little bit, while looking at organic farming figures I discovered a "fact" that despite the millions of people who are malnuritished there is enough food being produced, it's just the hungry's fault for not being able to afford the food....

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Originally Posted by 40kGamer

Sadly I agree. Barring the total collapse of the national economy, which would lead to unimaginable chaos, we won't see any real change in our lifetime. This leaves a person in the undesirable position of needing to game the system to have a better life... The hundreds of thousands of pages of laws and tax codes benefit the wealthy just as much (if not more so) then they limit them.

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And that's why if anyone asks I live in Jersey for tax purposes ;)

Also Clavin & Hobbs ftw.

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Originally Posted by Wolfshade

Well yes, going back a little bit, while looking at organic farming figures I discovered a "fact" that despite the millions of people who are malnuritished there is enough food being produced, it's just the hungry's fault for not being able to afford the food....

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Quite so. It's shameful.

When I get the allotment up and running (probably next year at this rate), reckon I'll donate any excess to my friends, and the local church. Despite being an affirmed godless heathen, it's my hope they'll be able to get the veg to people who it might benefit.

I'm interested to see what happens in around 20, maybve 25 years time when my generation (probably the same as everyone else here) start looking politically to our retirements. All these changes? I reckon they'll be getting switched back. After all, majority of post-war Baby Boomers will be pushing up the daisies by then. They can extend retirment age to 70 if they want. We'll just change it back once we're in charge.

[url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Vegetable-Herb-Expert/dp/0903505754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407164513&sr=1-1[/url]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...SH20_OU02_.jpg

and

[url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fruit-Expert-Dr-D-G-Hessayon/dp/0903505312/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407164513&sr=1-4[/url]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...SH20_OU02_.jpg

Yep. Such a nice spot! Just been onto the Council, and the forms are being sent out to me. EXCITE!

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Originally Posted by Wolfshade

Well yes, going back a little bit, while looking at organic farming figures I discovered a "fact" that despite the millions of people who are malnuritished there is enough food being produced, it's just the hungry's fault for not being able to afford the food....

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It is sad that there is plenty of food for everyone on earth but no real desire beyond a few token programs to actually feed the hungry.

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Originally Posted by Wolfshade

And that's why if anyone asks I live in Jersey for tax purposes ;)

Also Clavin & Hobbs ftw.

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Yessir! Gaming the tax code is as easy as pie if you know how.

Watterson is a genius. :)

Dr Hessayon's books are good, sometimes a little overly precious but ho-hum.

Two top tips.

1) In late winter/ early spring don't bother to plant anything until you've had to weed the plot. After all, if weeds aren't growing nothing is, regardless of what a book tells you (also being so far south you might find yourself about 2 weeks in front of typical UK climate, even more if the winter is mild)

2) Mulch. It retains soil moisture, puts back nutrients into the plot and discourages weeds.

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Originally Posted by 40kGamer

Yessir! Gaming the tax code is as easy as pie if you know how.

Watterson is a genius. :)

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A friend of mine who works in Belgium (very high tax rates) is often approached to see if he wants to move to Leichenstien for taxes reasons. Him being a stand up bloke always says no, and says since he uses and benefits from the government's spending, he should give back his fair allowance.


I am trying to source some of these for next year:

http://www.kenmuir.co.uk/image/cache...-8-400x400.jpg

Black Butte, though currently I have only found them at £12 per cane.

Anyone looking for an Office Job in London, my place are hiring.

PM me your email addy and I'll send you the details mmkay.

So, out of curiosity, how is laying off huge portions of your labor force to cover up other financial mistakes and prop up stocks viewed by the Labour Party? I've always gotten the impression that the Labour Party stands for the average man/woman and is supposed to defend them against the abuses of big business?

All a matter of perspective. If it's done to restructure and reduce running costs, ensuring future profitability and therefore safeguarding jobs in the long run, no real issue.

Whereas something like Cadbury's takeover, where a promise was made not to shut a certain factory in order to get the deal agreed, then doing it anyway, they tend to get the arse.

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

All a matter of perspective. If it's done to restructure and reduce running costs, ensuring future profitability and therefore safeguarding jobs in the long run, no real issue.

Whereas something like Cadbury's takeover, where a promise was made not to shut a certain factory in order to get the deal agreed, then doing it anyway, they tend to get the arse.

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Fair enough, although since I was alluding to Games Workshop, I'd have to say that I don't buy the notion at all that the lay offs had anything to do with ensuring future profitability. If that were the case, there were lots of things they could have done besides taking a hatchet to their labor. That is just the one people go to first when trying to artificially prop up stocks. The only jobs they are interested in safeguarding is that of the Board. :D

Thing is, that model does seem to work.

During my first employment with GW, I was one of...erm....three part timers, and three full timers, including the manager in the full timers.

Third employment that was down to manager, full timer, and me as the part time spod. Couple of years later, and it's just the Manager. And the shop is doing better (still friendly with Manager. I don't get specifics because it's not my business, but it's been in growth for around 3 or 4 years) So the strategy is working. Closed Monday and Tuesday, as those tend to be the quietest days on the high street, though a bit of a bummer on bank holiday Mondays!

Corporate Executive guide to running a business:

1. Increase Revenues - find ceiling of what customers can/will pay. Value of product is an afterthought.
2. Cut Expenses - Find ways to squeeze costs out of lower levels while maintaining executive pork. Look for the basement for working conditions and wages. In this situation a weak economy is your friend.
3. If 1&2 have been successful and profits are up congratulate yourself and goto 4, otherwise blame anything / anyone for the situation, engage in public raging, crying and gnashing of teeth then goto 4.
4. Take a bonus 100 x the average workers pay. Buy another house, secure a new trophy spouse, take a vacation, etc.... when you are fully rested rinse and repeat. :p

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Originally Posted by 40kGamer

Totally agree that Capitalism needs serious regulation to prevent wealth pooling at the top amongst other things. Also Capitalism is a horrible thing to apply to Healthcare. There is no way it can work for something that is literally a matter of life and death for people. Talk about an inelastic product! Also, I don't know if anyone has ever done a psychological profile of the wealthy but I suspect it would turn up deeply disturbed individuals.

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Agree. De-regulation is fhe biggest crime of the century.

sigh...

bored now.....

Have a picture of our cat instead of politics.

Attachment 10410

:D

Puppy on Blanket is cuterer.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_rt_BzvwoU.../Koala+(1).JPG

And in other news, Bernie 'Mr F1' Ecclestone has been on trial in Germany for Bribery.

German Court now considering his $100,000,000 offer to end his trial......

Can someone give Alanis Morrisette a ring? We've found some proper irony for her.

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Leading scientist ejected by audience after 'trying to crowd surf' at classical music concert.

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[URL="http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/leading-scientist-ejected-by-audience-after-trying-to-crowd-surf-at-classical-music-concert-30371249.html"]Give the article a read.[/URL]

So any of you guys seem EP lately? I have a package of demons for him still, he needs to pay me for.......its been a month & a half..........

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

And in other news, Bernie 'Mr F1' Ecclestone has been on trial in Germany for Bribery.

German Court now considering his $100,000,000 offer to end his trial......

Can someone give Alanis Morrisette a ring? We've found some proper irony for her.

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Without wanting to sound like a nitpicky arse, but no you haven't. A man on trial for bribery offering to 'pay off' his court case is very much predicable, if not expected. It is not ironic. Irony is either saying the opposite of what you mean, or, in the case of events, an outcome which is contrary to what you would normally expect (and often amusing as a result). It amazes me how often people get this wrong, and how often people slam Alanis when actually a lot of what she suggests is in fact ironic.

Edit: Having just checked the lyrics, I am revising my statement about Alanis. Some of what she says is ironic, but quite a bit is not.

Well, it is Ironic!

On trial for Bribery. Offers to buy (bribe) his way out of troub. Court considering it.... So his punishment for bribery is to have to bribe the court. Irony!

does kinda make sense though since it avoids process costs, and there was no guarantee he would have been convicted. So maybe not see it as an outright bribe but as an agreement/compromise between both sides to just save all the trouble, since that's a sum that will hurt even Bernie (whom I'm not defending! never that! but that sort of thing is established practice for a reason...)

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

Well, it is Ironic!

On trial for Bribery. Offers to buy (bribe) his way out of troub. Court considering it.... So his punishment for bribery is to have to bribe the court. Irony!

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But we expect his behaviour to include bribery given that is what he is on trial for and if as Tyrendian suggests, this sort of thing is common practice in Germany, it is entirely predictable that eh would do so. It is amusing, but not contrary to what you would expect. :p

Still Ironic, as you would expect the Court to frown upon what is essentially further bribery, to avoid being done for bribery :p

Most ironic thing about Alanis' song? American commentator blasted her for reinforcing the notion American's don't understand irony, neatly missing that she is in fact Canadian :p

http://argos.scene7.com/is/image/Arg...id=312&hei=312

Yes. Three please Santa. Closest thing I'll get to a working kombishoota!

http://www.blasterlabs.com/wp-conten...g-1024x611.png


Mother of Dakka that won't get your arrested!

It did give me a wry smile to think he is being on trial for bribery and pays his way out of it.

To be fair it is probably so complicated and convoluted that the state didn't think they could get a conviction, or if they could it would cost so much money that the fine might not cover it. This is just expediant

He's also paying them more than the alleged bribe!

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28654142]Westminster parties, despite refusing a 'devo max' option on the ballot....now offering 'devo max' for a no vote[/url].

Anyone would think they were running scared..... How is it gonna turn out? DFK, DFC. I live and work in South East England, so neither have a say, nor a care how it turns out.

But it is amusing watching the Westminster parties squirm as they realise it's a lot closer than anyone thought (opinion polls currently suggesting a 'no' vote by around 10%. But you can guarantee the 'yes' voters will be out in force, as they need to be heard now).

And whatever the outcome? Alex Salmond, like him or loathe him, will go down in history as one of the most successful modern day politicians. Took his party from a minority (bad) joke, to a landslide victory, and delivered his main promise - a referendum. As I've pointed out before, he has never promised independence. Only that the will of the people would be made manifest.

what's kinda sad about the Ecclestone thing is that, while the court can distribute the money literally as it pleases afaik (within certain limits of course, can't give it to themselves...), only 1% of it will go to charity