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This is so repugnantly ignorant I have a hard time believing its not just a pathetic attempt to troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Harbinger
If, by some unholy reason you are serious, then you actually need to read the facts surrounding this case, and then modify your stance, or shut your trap. Because, indeed, you are exactly part of the problem.
If suggesting that a girl should take the time to seriously consider the possible consequences of getting into a car with strangers, accepting alocholic beverages that have already been opened from those strangers, and cross state lines to attend a house party full of strangers and alcohol makes me part of the "problem" then I will gladly be part of the "problem." You seem to equate the idea of being cautious with blaming the victim. I don't see how you can conflate the two. It's never okay to rape somebody. It's also not a good idea to place your well being at the mercy of strangers. You can take smart simple common sense precautions and still get assaulted. There are plenty of bad people out there that do bad things, trying to minimize your exposure to such people is smart. What happened to that girl wasn't inevitable. It's unfortunate that you seem so intent on belittling the idea that women should empower themselves by taking responsibility for their personal safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by scadugenga
Where did her parents think she was going? Did they know who she was traveling with? Did they have a way to contact her? Did they ask her to check in with them? Did they try to contact her? There's lots of steps that people can take to reduce the chances of running into trouble. Hopeful trouble doesn't run into you but you try your best to prepare for that too. This incident should make women/girls reflect on how they handle their own safety, their friends' safety, their children's safety. If examining how it happened, how it could have been avoided and how you should handle your own behavior is going to be shouted down with accusations of blaming the victim then we're not doing all we can to stop this kind of thing from happening again.
Mostly I was just quoting the part of the statute that is relevant to this case. All fifty states define marital rape as a crime, often under the general rape statute, though the effective definition of "marital rape" may be slightly different than "regular" rape. In Ohio, the way it's treated is that a separate part of the rape statute makes it a crime to engage in sexual conduct with anybody through the purposeful use or threat of force. That applies even to cohabitating spouses (there is a specific call-out that marriage is not a defense to yhis section). That does make marital rape slightly narrower in Ohio than non-marital rape. Specifically, it excludes the cases of sexual conduct with a person 13 or younger and with a person whose ability to consent is substantially impaired. The first is fine, since you can't legally have a spouse that young in Ohio anyway. The second is, I suppose, more up for debate. Personally I think that sexual conduct with one's drunk or unconscious spouse should not be considered rape absent other factors, but I can see the argument otherwise. I am a little iffier on the fact that in Ohio I can get my spouse intoxicated specifically to lower her resistance to sexual advances, engage in sexual conduct with her, and it STILL doesn't count as rape. But I can see the argument - consenting spouses might well get intoxicated to lower inhibitions, and is that so wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildeybeast
But anyway, that's the law.
I dont usually resort to this, but you are a prick. Nothing, BUT nothing excuses anybody from harming somebody else in this kind of way and your excuse or justification of this makes me wonder, are you living in Ohio ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Harbinger
I want to elaborate a bit more on why Earl Harbingers statement is so repugnant.
He says the victim bears some responsibility because she was reckless in going to the party and drinking. Look at that for a moment. Going to a social gathering and imbibing alcoholic beverages is reckless behavior for a woman. Why? Because a man might rape them. So here women are being held responsible for the actions of men. The message here is that it is the womans responsibility to avoid being raped, not the mans responsibility not to rape.
What message does this send to young men? That it's ok, you may have raped that girl but it isn't really your fault, it's hers. So if you find yourself in a similar situation you can be forgiven for doing it again, right? Oh and when you do rape a girl you only have a 3% chance of serving prison time, so what have you got to lose?
Thus springs forth the rape culture that permeates many societies.
It is an unfortunate precaution that girls have to go to parties in groups, literally watch what we drink and generally be on guard at parties. It isn't a responsibility, it is a BURDEN. It's not just something we have to do with strangers, either. Most rape victims know their attacker. We have to be on guard ALWAYS not because of anything we have done but because a lot of men can't control themselves and when someone like Earl Harbinger shifts responsibility to the victim he is in a small way contributing to the culture that allows this behaviour to continue.
Alcohol facilitated rapes actually make up only a small amount of reported rape cases, but they are in effect the poster boy for rape and so the attitude that people display towards them is important. When people shift the blame onto the victim, it sends the message that the rapists were not fully responsible for their crime. Which is despicable, repugnant and simply untrue.
On a happier note, the responses to Earl Harbinger from the chaps on this forum make me happy and proud. Raise your sons like that and tell them to raise their sons and call out friend when they make jokes about rape and so forth and one day we might have a society that genuinely does not tolerate this behaviour.
Really? so He'll watch (being everywhere) but wait till they're dead to possibly doing owt?Quote:
Originally Posted by tawelwch
@EP, the way I read Harbingers comments it's your fault for owning a car. Which is ridiculous.
EEG - I am not convinced by your figures of 1/4 Us and 1/5 UK woman have been raped. I just do not believe if you lined up the 35-odd million women in this country, that 7 mill will have been raped.
Subjected to some sort of sexual assault, maybe pressured into sex but actual rape?
I know. I'm one of those naughty, reckless car owners who really ought to know better. Don't you remember the good old days where car owners knew their place and street thugs weren't tempted? All those smooth glass windows, those big round tires... it's no surprise that car break-ins are up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychosplodge
But you know, those things only happen in the big cities, where people have no ethics. In the country and the suburbs, people don't break into each others cars. It's because they still follow traditional values. And also because those car owners know how to behave.
I'm in a rush right now, but if I can find the studies, I'll post them here. Suffice it to say, for now, that I used to think the same as you, and then I took a fact to the knee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denzark
Also suffice it to say that even if the rape rate were much lower, we could agree that it was too high.
Final point: "rape" and "coercive sex" are the same thing. "Violent rape" and "coercive sex" are different things. "Coerced into sex" and "pressured into sex" are different things. If a teenage boy whines and complains about blue balls until his girlfriend blows him, no one would call that rape, no matter how bad she feels in the morning. That's no part of the rape statistics. However, all sorts of coercive situations - from landlords taking advantage of impoverished tenants to uncles molesting their nieces - do count as rape.
Basically, "rape" is defined as "using force of some kind to coerce someone into sex." That force can be violence or threats of violence, or threats of other kinds of retribution (ie. "let me do this to you or I'll fire you/evict you/whatever").
Oh, and by the way, the monster hole of rape culture goes a lot deeper than that. In the US, 1/4 of all women have been raped (and even more sexually assaulted or molested in a less serious way), but so have about 30% of men.
Note: I'm not saying this because it takes men being raped to make it "real," I just want to put out there that rape culture, as a phenomenon, has deep roots in how we deal with sex, violence, power, and authority. It isn't a "girl issue." It's a problem for all of us to examine.
The figures are problematic and vary. One issue is that the line between sexual assault and rape differs depending on who is compiling the data (do you count digital rape in with vaginal rape for example when both are classed as 'sexual assault with penetration)) and some question whether the distinction even matters. Is rape specifically vaginal penetration by a penis or is it any forced sexual act, with sexual assault being slightly less horrible things like groping and whatno. Then you have the fact that there is significant under reporting or rapes and sexual assault, only around 20% are reported to police.
The [URL="http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/criminal-justice/sexual-offending-statistics"]official guvmint statistics[/URL] indicate that each year around 2.5% of women were sexually assaulted each year since 2009 with 0.5% being the most serious category (sexual assault with penetration). That is each year, and most anti rape advocacy and support groups believe these figures are ridiculously conservative.
Basically the official figures indicate that one fifth of British women suffer through sexual assault at some point in their life, but these figures are considered extremely conservative. I go with some of the statistics given by rape support groups which put it at much higher (I'm still being conservative, some rape support networks in the US say the stats they see put it as high as 1 in 3).
Also coercing someone into sex is still rape. This is another factor that complicates the statistics as even a lot of women don't realise some things are rape, like being bullied into sex by a boyfriend whether it gets physical or not. That is still rape, a particulalry insidious kind because it often leaves the woman feeling violated and then feeling confused about why and thinking perhaps something is wrong with her.
Denz,Quote:
Originally Posted by Denzark
Back in Uni I worked in a crisis response job.
The stats EG posted are accurate. 1 in 4 women and 1 in 12 men are victims of sexual abuse/assault.
Because of the oppositions placed on the victim, offtimes by the cops/prosecutors, very few cases make it to court.
Most cases go unreported because of yh