Rape Trial Coverage Fiasco

Quite. She was dragged around to three separate parties, vaginally, anally and digitally raped, photographed and verbally abused over the course of hours. This was videotaped and the perpetrators congratulated themselves and boasted about it on social media. It was a sustained, brutal violation of this young girl and it took a blogger and a dubious hacker group to get her any semblance of justice. In court the two rapists who were actually charged and convicted apologised to their families for 'what they put them through' but not to the victim. The media focused not on the girl whose human rights were violated in an incomprehensibly savage crime but on the perpetrators. Because their promising football careers being cut short is just so much more ****ing tragic than a 16 year old girl being sexually assaulted for hours.

This isn't rare, or isolated. One in four women will be raped in the US and one in five in Britain. 97/100 times they won't see justice done.

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Originally Posted by Psychosplodge

That is equally disturbing.

Do they have a "perverting the course of justice" equivalent crime in the US?

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I hope so. Over here it's hard enough to get people put in jail even without any such interference.

This link shows some of this and some case studies

[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html[/url]

Some crime is too horrible and too dangerous to be forgiven. I normally think though that murder by the state is still murder. God will judge them.

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Originally Posted by eldargal

Despite being against capital punishment sometimes I agree with that.


She shouldn't have been raped.

She shouldn't have been raped

She shouldn't have been raped

She shouldn't have been raped.

She shouldn't have been raped.

To quote a placard I saw at Slut Walk once:

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The fact that other people are willing to commit criminal behavior in no way absolves anyone of personal responsibility. To advocate that somebody can behave with reckless disregard for their well being because everybody else should be behaving properly is idiotic. As a parent I try to instruct my children in how to make good decisions I don't encourage them to do whatever they want because other people should know better than to try to assault them. If you make bad decisions and put yourself in a bad situation the odds of a bad outcome greatly increase. The boys actions in this case are inexcusable and horrific but that in no way means that the decisions made by the victim are beyond reproach or shouldn't be examined. Relying on other people to protect you from yourself is a terrible counter productive morally bankrupt philosophy.

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Originally Posted by eldargal

This isn't rare, or isolated. One in four women will be raped in the US and one in five in Britain. 97/100 times they won't see justice done.

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That is a completely bogus statistic. The idea that 25% of the female population in the US has been raped must be some kind of grotesque joke. There is no data to support that claim. For that statistic to be accurate there would need to be tens of millions of rapists and rape victimes. Everybody would know multiple rapists and victims within their circle of friends/acquaintences. Girls would stop attending colleges because there would be multiple rapes on every college campus in the country every weekend. The fact that many rapes go unreported doesn't entitle people to pull numbers out of the air to manufacture a crisis of sexual violence that cannot be supported by empirical or even anecdotal evidence.

[url]http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/263834/are-one-five-college-women-sexually-assaulted-heather-mac-donald[/url]

[url]http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html[/url]

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

engaging in sexual conduct with a person who was not their spouse when that person's ability to resist or consent was substantially impaired," which is the Ohio definition of rape relevant to this case.

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Nab, can you clarify something? I'm reading that as meaning that you can't rape your wife in Ohio. Am I misreading that? Our rape laws used to say it was impossible to rape your wife, but we changed that a while ago when we realised it was wrong. Have our colonial cousins not caught up on that or does this mean something else?

The big, big issue is that so often a rape victim is pilloried because her actions are "examined". Like what she was wearing, that she chose to walk alone, or how many boyfriends she's had previously. To go to court as a rape victim is often the prelude to having one's life torn apart in every detail in a way that wouldn't happen were it a non-sexual assault.
For instance if you got beaten up randomly would the defence point out that you were wearing a t-shirt? I mean obviously by showing off your biceps you were out looking for a fight! If you're going to go around dressed like that you should expect people to attack you!
Walking home from the bus stop a stranger stops you and asks the time. Look at your watch and he drags you into the bushes and stabs you. Obviously you should have been more careful! I mean walking alone near your house, you should have arranged for someone to drive you the two hundred metres home!

Go to a party with your schoolmates, people you've probably known for years. Get drugged and abused for hours on end. Nothing but foolish recklessness there :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gotthammer

The big, big issue is that so often a rape victim is pilloried because her actions are "examined". Like what she was wearing, that she chose to walk alone, or how many boyfriends she's had previously. To go to court as a rape victim is often the prelude to having one's life torn apart in every detail in a way that wouldn't happen were it a non-sexual assault.
For instance if you got beaten up randomly would the defence point out that you were wearing a t-shirt? I mean obviously by showing off your biceps you were out looking for a fight! If you're going to go around dressed like that you should expect people to attack you!
Walking home from the bus stop a stranger stops you and asks the time. Look at your watch and he drags you into the bushes and stabs you. Obviously you should have been more careful! I mean walking alone near your house, you should have arranged for someone to drive you the two hundred metres home!

Go to a party with your schoolmates, people you've probably known for years. Get drugged and abused for hours on end. Nothing but foolish recklessness there :rolleyes:

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So you don't think people have personal responsiblity for their actions? Should people accused of certain crimes not be allowed to defend themselves in court with whatever strategy their lawyers think is best? If you want rape to be treated as a serious crime and carry very serious penalties you should understand that people are going to try to avoid being found guilty in court.

The big problem with rape convictions isn't the wardrobe of the victim it's the frequent lack of witnesses. In this particular case in Ohio you had photos, video, posted remarks etc. which made the prosecution's case much easier. Often rape cases are simply a he said/she said case which is inherently difficult to prosecute. In such a case the prosecution is trying to convince a jury that the victim's version of events is the true one in the absence of corraborating eyewitnesses and physical evidence. The jury has an obligation to thoroughly evaluate the victim's character because her trustworthyness is all the prosecution has. Likewise the defense will try to prove she shouldn't be trusted. It would be irresponsible not to examine the actions of the two parties leading up to the alleged rape.

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Originally Posted by Earl Harbinger

The fact that other people are willing to commit criminal behavior in no way absolves anyone of personal responsibility. To advocate that somebody can behave with reckless disregard for their well being because everybody else should be behaving properly is idiotic. As a parent I try to instruct my children in how to make good decisions I don't encourage them to do whatever they want because other people should know better than to try to assault them. If you make bad decisions and put yourself in a bad situation the odds of a bad outcome greatly increase. The boys actions in this case are inexcusable and horrific but that in no way means that the decisions made by the victim are beyond reproach or shouldn't be examined. Relying on other people to protect you from yourself is a terrible counter productive morally bankrupt philosophy.

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Uh yes, it ******* well does actually. She isn't responsible for the attack, her attackers are. It doesn't matter a jot that she was out partying, or drinking because none of those things are an invitation to rape. She didn't do anything wrong, her attackers did. The end. This argument only gets trotted out for rape. If some guy gets punched without provocation while waiting a night club line no one says 'Well he shouldn't have been out clubbing
'. I mean look at what you are actually saying:
Girls shouldn't go to parties.
Girls shouldn't drink
Girls shouldn't go out alone
Girls shouldn't wear anything that could be considered sexy
etc.
Because these are all 'reckless'.

In other words girls have to live in a self imposed prison and behave in a constrained way because a lot of men don't realise that rape is monstrous or simply don't care. **** that. The problem here is NOT the girls behaviour, it is the behaviour of the rapist. This girl wasn't walking through a bad neighbourhood on her own after dark, she went to a party. The moment you say her actions are reproachful you shift the blame from the criminal to the victim.

That makes YOU part of the problem. YOU are contributing to a rape culture that says it is the girls responsibility not to get raped. Because there is a difference between saying to a girl 'if you go partying on your own you need to be careful' and 'if you go partying on your own you are being reckless and some of the responsibility for your rape will be yours'.

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Originally Posted by eldargal

Uh yes, it ******* well does actually. She isn't responsible for the attack, her attackers are. It doesn't matter a jot that she was out partying, or drinking because none of those things are an invitation to rape. She didn't do anything wrong, her attackers did. The end. This argument only gets trotted out for rape. If some guy gets punched without provocation while waiting a night club line no one says 'Well he shouldn't have been out clubbing
'. I mean look at what you are actually saying:
Girls shouldn't go to parties.
Girls shouldn't drink
Girls shouldn't go out alone
Girls shouldn't wear anything that could be considered sexy
etc.

In other words girls have to live in a self imposed prison and behave in a constrained way because a lot of men don't realise that rape is monstrous or simply don't care. **** that. The problem here is NOT the girls behaviour, it is the behaviour of the rapist. This girl wasn't walking through a bad neighbourhood on her own after dark, she went to a party. The moment you say her actions are reproachful you shift the blame from the criminal to the victim.

That makes YOU part of the problem. YOU are contributing to a rape culture that says it is the girls responsibility not to get raped.

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It surprises me that you chose to twist my post into that myopic viewpoint. Here, let me try it: Listen to what you're saying, women don't need to know how to defend themselves, they shouldn't take the time to evaluate the decisions they make, they don't need to develop situational awareness or judge the character of the people they go out with and they need never drink responsibly. Why should women live such a reckless hedonistic lifestyle? Because if something bad happens to them it's not their fault. Wow, that felt rather petty but surprisingly good.;)

In every single post I've made in this thread I've stated that there is no excuse to commit sexual assault or rape. The rapists made a conscious decision to commit rape, they bear full responsiblility for the exercise of their free will.

I fail to understand why you think it helps women or society in general to act as if the roofie laced alochol, the house party and the "rape crew" fell out of the sky and landed in this girl's living room. Women need to be careful, they need exercise caution and wisdom if they're going to go out to party. It would be great if we could change society and human nature to create a utopia where men never try to have sex with women against their will but until such a time it would benefit women greatly and reduce the odds of them getting raped if they avoided placing themselves in situations conducive to getting assaulted.

You're a woman, you're in a hallway with two doors, behind door A is a room with your friends, having a few pints, watching the telly, listening to music etc., behind door B is a group of boisterous drunk hooligans in a pub. If you had to walk through one of the doors which would you choose? I agree with you 100% that whichever door you choose nobody has the right to sexually assault you and that anyone who does should prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We're in agreement there but you can't honestly argue that a woman should treat both doors as the same because men should know better than to rape a woman. If women take simple common sense steps to minimize their chances of getting assaulted they will be much less likely to get assaulted, I don't know why you seem to have a problem with that logic.

I've had my car broken into a couple of times.

Once I was angle-parked - which created a secluded space between my car and the car next to me - and I left a big black case (my army bag, btw) in the front seat, which attracted attention. Someone broke into my car and the car next to mine with a champaign bottle and stole stuff.

Now, was it my fault that my car was broken into?

No.

I behaved ethically. I did something that by all rights I should have been safe doing. Some douche-battleship decided to parasitize me and steal from me. He deserves nothing but scorn, and I deserve sympathy.

Now, are there things I can do to make myself safer? Absolutely. I could have put my army bag in the trunk instead. I could have driven a bit longer and found a more exposed parking spot. I could have not gone to that particular store for game night, on the edge - as it is - of a lousy part of Oakland. And that's what I've done from now on.

Here's the thing, though. When I called my wife in tears because my entire Blood Ravens army had been stolen, she didn't respond with "well, you should have been more careful." She was empathetic. She comforted me. She helped me plan to replace it.

When a girl is raped and the immediate response is "here's all the things you're doing wrong that makes this your fault," something is seriously f^cked up.

Secondly - and this is by far more disturbing - while it's one thing to acknowledge that people can do certain things to make themselves safer, it's something else entirely to put the onus entirely on the victim. When people talk about how girls need to dress differently, act differently, and so on in order to prevent themselves from getting raped, and don't bother to talk about how men need to behave differently... really? I mean, what would you do if the mayor of your city got up and said "we've given up on policing our streets - here's a list of things you can do to make yourself less likely to be the target of criminals. Good luck folks."

If I have daughters, I will teach them to protect themselves. I'd be stupid not to. No one has ever said that feminism means failing to acknowledge the painful realities of the world we live in. But I will also teach my sons to be proud, decent, compassionate men who would never hurt a girl (you know, unless she's into that sort of thing and asks really nicely). And I will never stop advocating, agitating, and protesting for the kind of laws and policies that will stop people from raping each other. Because the onus of the law belongs on the perpetrator, not the victim.

Secondly, let's go back to my car.

My car was broken into a second time because someone got into the garage under my apartment building. Luckily, nothing of value was taken. I say luckily, because my car was under my freaking apartment building. I had every reason to believe that it was safe. I might very well have left an army bag, or my phone, or my wallet, or whatever in there. Luckily, I didn't.

A lot of people think that rape is like having your car broken into on the street. The fact is, though, that that's wrong. Statistically speaking, most rapes are not violent rapes. Most rapists aren't random monsters roaming the streets. They are boyfriends and girlfriends, co-workers, best friends, roommates, dorm-mates, uncles and aunts, fathers and mothers. Most girls that are raped aren't raped because they were dressed like a "slut" and "drunk" in the "wrong part of town." They're raped because their boyfriends drug them, because their bosses coerce them, or their parents attacked them. They're raped because their friend who they trusted to be the designated driver decides to take advantage of them.

We like to think that rape is about random strangers because that's an easier face to deal with. You have an image of "rapist," and he's a stranger, his face hidden, walking down the street at night, looking for someone to hurt. What you can't deal with - what you try to ignore, regardless of the facts - is that the rapist looks like everyone else. He doesn't stalk his victim. He takes advantage of someone in a moment of entirely understandable weakness. And it isn't anyone's fault but the rapists.