Rape Trial Coverage Fiasco

I agree entirely EP, I think they knew exactly what they were doing and I think they should have been treated as adults in this case too. I wouldn't want anyone to think I sympathise with this scum. I was just reiterating what I had read in reference to their understanding of what they had done, or supposed lack of understanding.

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Originally Posted by Deadlift

I agree entirely EP, I think they knew exactly what they were doing and I think they should have been treated as adults in this case too. I wouldn't want anyone to think I sympathise with this scum. I was just reiterating what I had read in reference to their understanding of what they had done, or supposed lack of understanding.

Fair enough.

Wow... we all agree that we hate these people. How is it possible for so many different people from such different backgrounds to all sit down and agree to hate one thing? I mean, we can't even agree to hate Orks or Eldar, or whether or not we should hate the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels, or whether Games Workshop hates us more or less than Privateer Press hates Monsteropolis. And yet, we all agree to hate rapists. And we all hate them just as much.

It's kind of heartwarming, really.

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Originally Posted by Deadlift

Thank you Nab.
I think it's a general rule for most members of the public that some serious crimes don't seem to carry sentences to match or are just not taken seriously in the first place, looking further afield to India and what's happening there its obvious that its not just a western perception either. But to get some insight is always good.

Going back to your post and the final part where you say it's possible that both boys didn't realise they were actually committing rape. I had read that theory too elsewhere. Basically because these boys have been able to get away with whatever they like for such a long time, coupled with the fact the girl wasn't attacked per se and clothes ripped off etc they didn't realise they were actually committing rape. One of the boys fathers admitted in court that his parenting skills had been nonexistent and lacked any moral guidance. Now whilst I can "understand" this I think we can all agree at a certain age especially theirs we should have some moral responsibility for our actions. I don't think the fact the town, which tried to cover up this case either has really helped these boys or others in this lauded team to understand the heinous crime they have committed. It sounds like its not an isolated case either.
Personally I would like to see them both made an example of, but if you like it or not the law is the law.

Not sure if it works the same where you are but I have a friend who is a magistrate and as I understand it here in the UK when it comes to sentencing he has to have advice on what sentence he is able to pass down, to ensure he isn't either to lenient or harsh. But mostly we talk about bikes.

Once again thanks for the insight.

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Originally Posted by ElectricPaladin

I think the boys understood that they were doing something sexual to a girl against her will. Perhaps they justified it by insisting to themselves that she was drunk, or that it didn't count as "really rape" because they weren't being violent. But really? I think they knew what they were doing. They obviously didn't have the moral center to take a different course. They clearly didn't think about the consequences of their actions until afterwards, when they tried to cover it up. But they did it, and they knew it was bad, or they wouldn't have tried to cover it up in the first place. In fact, I think that one of the heinous online videos involve one of the boys saying to someone else "she is so raped."

I think when people say "I didn't know it was rape," they're talking about situations in which they were also drunk or high, in which case it's ambiguous who raped who. Or they're talking about a situation in which their partner was one of the rare people who can get black-out drunk without seeming black-out impaired. Or cases of statutory rape in which the minor managed to deceive the adult about his or her age.

But really? How often do these things happen? Were the law just, it would take them into account, certainly. While a 30 year old who has sex with a 15 year old pretending to be an 18 year old should probably get help to improve his or her judgment, this person probably doesn't deserve to be on a sex offenders list for the rest of his or her life. I've heard of a handful of cases in which two drunk people have sex and, in the morning, the man is arrested, because in some states the law is worded such that the man is always considered the rapist even if both are drunk. So, there are grey areas, and fuzzy lines, and perhaps a few people being punished more severely than they really deserve.

But I don't think these kids didn't understand that they were raping a girl. They knew what they were doing, and they knew it was wrong. They just thought that it was an ok sort of wrong, a relatively minor offense, like streaming Warhammer 40k pdfs. Because their moral centers were completely out of whack and they lived in a town that treated them like nobility because of their football skills.

I should clarify - when I say "I don't think they understood," I don't mean that they didn't understand that they were engaging in sexual conduct with a person who was not their spouse when that person's ability to resist or consent was substantially impaired," which is the Ohio definition of rape relevant to this case. I think they absolutely understood that. They'd be guilty even if they didn't (note that the crime is defined by the victim's actual state, not the offender's belief about the victim's state), but I think that they did.

When lawyers talk about "incapacity" or "incompetence," they don't necessarily mean an inability to understand basic level facts like that. We don't prevent sixteen year olds from signing contracts or suing people on the grounds that they can't understand the terms of the contract, their causes of action, etc., nor again on the grounds that they're their parents' property or some such nonsense. The sense in which a teenager is incompetent is in that we (meaning the law/society at large) don't trust them to understand the consequences of their actions, let alone act in accordance with those consequences.

So I think these kids knew what rape is in physical/legal terms, and I think they had it in their heads that they were either raping their victim, or coming damn close. I don't think they understood (or understand) what rape is in moral, spiritual, and philosophical terms - not even for the offender, let alone the victim. Moreover, I must admit that after law school, I don't really think teenagers as a whole understand those things. Maybe that seems crazy. Maybe it's because I'm crazy. Maybe it's a craziness I share with a lot of lawyers.

Now mind, I don't think this lessens their culpability, either morally or legally. I hope that, when the sentence is handed down, it's a heavy one (and if I'd be okay with a light period of incarceration and a long period of sex offender registration, that's only because I view the sex offender registry as a heavier and better punishment than incarceration). But if the AG shared my view that no teenager can be expected to understand the moral, spiritual, and philosophical implications of rape,* it might explain why they were moved to juvenile court. My lawyer's view of puberty is that it's an odd time, legal-philosophically: a time when you bear a moral responsibility for actions that you are incapable of understanding on a level deep enough to deter a morally reasonable adult from committing. The juvenile justice system is intended to strike a compromise suited to that disconnect between responsibility and capacity.

So ... I guess I feel that so long as the sentence handed down to these delinquent children is sufficiently heavy, I won't feel like justice has miscarried just because they aren't guilty adults. It's not necessarily the call I would have made, but I can see how an attorney general who genuinely wants to see justice done - even if he didn't care a fig for their football hero status, and even if he neither knew nor cared what the victim and her family wished - could still wrestle with the bare facts of their teenager-ness. I know I would, regardless of the call I ultimately made.

EDIT: *I should distinguish this from knowing that what they were doing is wrong. My two year old sometimes gets it into her head that what she is doing is wrong - sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. I am pretty confident that she never understands the true reason why what she is doing is wrong, even when she correctly believes that it is wrong. That's what I'm talking about here - the capacity not to know right from wrong, but the capacity to know why something is right or wrong. Of course, you may still think I'm crazy for not believing that sixteen year olds as a body don't have the capacity to know why things are right or wrong on a deep level.

You know what.

Hang them.

Despite being against capital punishment sometimes I agree with that.

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She shouldn't have gone to the party.

She shouldn't have been raped.

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She shouldn't have drank

She shouldn't have been raped

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She shouldn't have gone out alone

She shouldn't have been raped

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She should have worn something sensible

She shouldn't have been raped.

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She should have known better

She shouldn't have been raped.

To quote a placard I saw at Slut Walk once:

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Don't tell your daughter what to wear or not to drink, tell your son not to rape

I honestly feel it's a worse crime than manslaughter.

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Originally Posted by Psychosplodge

I honestly feel it's a worse crime than manslaughter.

For me it's not just the rape itself, but all that happened afterwards with the cover up and how the media handled it. Chilling to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Deadlift

For me it's not just the rape itself, but all that happened afterwards with the cover up and how the media handled it. Chilling to be honest.

That is equally disturbing.

Do they have a "perverting the course of justice" equivalent crime in the US?

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Originally Posted by Deadlift

For me it's not just the rape itself, but all that happened afterwards with the cover up and how the media handled it. Chilling to be honest.

Yep. As if rape wasn't bad enough the authorities in this town tried to bury it and there are rumours that they have succeeded in the past. This isn't isolated either, it happens all over. In the US only 3% of rapists ever serve jail time.

Its worse than that because of the premeditated nature of their intent.

They used another person to lure her to the party.

They (iirc) gave her a date rape drug.

Then they raped her publicly.

And photographed it, and then shared said photographs.

Then they bragged about their actions on the Internet. (Twitter, etc.)

When brought to light, the town did its damnedest to cover for these jackholes.

Go old school, I say. Bury them alive at a crossroads, or walk them around the tree...