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My wife is interested in starting the hobby and OF COURSE she has to counter me and go all in with Chaos (like I did with the God Emperor). She's settled on CSM but what's the best loadout to go with? I think she's leaning Slaaneshi/Khorne-esque marines. I know next to nothing about the Chaos SM's other than to kill them with lots of Meltas....
Any and all help would be appreciated.
Awesome! Always glad to hear there's another Champion of Chaos joining the field! I'm certainly not the most experienced player on here (only been playing since 5th edition) but I think I can at least give you a baseline. Really the questions have to be asked though, how much are you willing to spend and what kind of point range are you looking for? 1000? 1500? 2000?
(I'm assuming your wife hasn't played yet, or at least not extensively, and a medium point level, 1000-1500pts)
Plague marines I think are the easiest for beginners to get started with for CSM - they're incredibly durable, not to mention cheap since you only need 10 to have 2 squads and maximum special weapons. They're a very forgiving unit to play and morale-boosting for new players since they tend not to get shot off the board too easily. They also have the most fun default wargear with defensive grenades and poisoned melee weapons.
My next choice from a competitive angle would be Noise Marines, in large squads, with sonic weaponry, and an Icon of Excess. However, it's not too flexible/mobile and can be frustrating to play with for a beginner, despite being rather hard to kill and the potential to pump out a lot of shots. Not to mention it's rather expensive since you'll need the buy those upgrade packs.
If she's set on Slaanesh/Khorne and don't want to spend too much, then there are melee-oriented Noise Marines, CSM's with MoS, or any flavor of Khornite marines. Either way, they're all melee-oriented and I recommend a Landraider since they really need help getting to assault against pretty much any other army.
Thousand Sons may be a good choice if you are playing SM (you either playing them or IG, based on your comments) and your wife will be primarily playing against you. Like Plaguemarines, they're hard to shoot off (though PMs are harder, IMO), and giving her an army more suited to killing your units will hopefully mean less lop-sided battles initially as she learns and gets a better handle on the game.
After troop choices, I recommend:
A Chaos Lord on a bike accompanied by Chaos Spawn, so she's got something fast and maneuverable to play with
Obliterators - very flexible and can experiment with Deep-Striking & Reserves
Heldrake w/ Baleflamer - still a good unit despite the recent nerf, and gives a good understanding of Flyers and Reserves
Stay away from Warp Talons (don't do their job properly), Cultists (demoralizing to play with as a beginner, unless taken in Helcult formation or given a Fearless HQ), Mutilators (don't do their job properly unless in a Landraider), and Possessed (don't do their job properly unless playing as Crimson Slaughter).
Alternatively, you can just let her go unbound and grab whatever she thinks looks cool. There aren't any stand-out units for CSM other than Be'lakor and Nurgle Daemon Princes w/ wings and the Black Mace. Heldrake as a standout is debatable after recent nerfs.
Also, you're better off killing CSM's with Plasmaguns rather than Meltas. More shots/longer range.
Yes, I'm an IG player. I use lots of plasmas as well haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyudun
When I originally told her to go with Papa Nurgle she was adament in saying no. She's narrowed it down to either going towards buying either a CSM Battleforce or the Dark Vengeance set. I know knowing about either of those as well. Although going unbound and getting what models she likes is always a choice as well.
Thanks for your responses.
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That's the hard part. She's kinda got her mind set on either Dark Vengeance or the CSM battleforce. But I'm trying to keep her options open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristopholes
What about the CSM Attack Force? Has more interesting (and competitive) options.
My advice?
Determine EXACTLY what type of force you want to run first. then by. the god you choose and the style of list you want is drastically going to change what units your should look into.
So what theme is she going for (ignoring the god aspect that will come late)
My suggestion is to start her in an economical way. Black Legion uses Khorne too, and they look JUST LIKE regular Chaos Space Marines except for a nice, bright red shoulder pad. In short, I tend to suggest people go with Black Legion for ease in painting and so you don't have to buy as much. Magnetize that one shoulder pad and have the ability to swap out to make different kinds of Elite Troops. It makes monetary sense because it is cheap to get lots of basic Chaos Space Marines, paint them fast with a dark solid color, and then create some nice custom swap outs to do the various troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
Khorne isn't all that strong this edition because this is the era of the gun. Delivering them to the target is pretty difficult. Of course, we have yet to see how the META is shifting with the 7th Edition craziness. By in large, hardly anyone seems to be playing. The number of battle reports going up is low and has not shown off any big changes yet. Noise Marines are useful in that sonic weaponry ignores cover, but they are also expensive. I have two types of load outs for Noise Marines.
Aggressive Noise Marine Load-Out:
(8) Noise Marines including one with a Blastmaster, combat weapons, and dedicated Rhino.
(1) Noise Marine Champion w/two Lightning Claws, Melta Bombs, Doom Siren, and the Icon of Excess. *And Gift of Mutation if there are points to spare.
*Nine times out of ten I have an Independent Character riding shotgun with them. If it is Lucius they are Troops and thus there are two Doom Sirens in the vehicle. I like to outflank a unit like this and thus I normally use this if Huron is my Warlord so I can guarantee the option. There is no point in taking the non-assault Sonic Blaster. This unit is to come in screaming blow the crap out of stuff and then on the next Turn assault. Noise Marine Champions, due to their Doom Siren, have an excellent chance of killing enemy characters and thus getting a roll on the Chaos Boons table. Every time I have EVER gotten a Daemon Prince via this method has been from such a champion. That is the hard part. I like to put the Icon of Excess on the Champion to make the Icon harder to kill, but if your Champion ascends, you lose it.
Fire Base Noise Marine Loadout:
This is exactly what you would think. You take as many Noise Marines as you want (you can take up to 20 in a squad) and outfit them with maximum Sonic Weaponry. The volume of fire is quite nasty if you are sitting still and have command of the terrain. A dirty trick I like is to put the Skyshield at the very extreme of my HALF of the table and then infiltrate this giant unit on top of it. With the range of the Sonic Blasters you should be able to reach down deep into your opponent's deployment zone and ignore all their cover. I have liquidated massive numbers of Tau Fire Warriors and Guard this way. It works best, of course, if you are going first.
She's like me, fast attack and/or heavy firepower.Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
so is it infantry, daemon engines, tanks, terminators?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
Does she like the heldrake? what about spawn?
those are our hard/fast hitters.
I'd reccomend slaanesh, then, they do both of those pretty well and they are the only army that can really dual role.
Plus they get a bit of a resistance boost with the icon of excess which makes up for not having the MoN
A core of 5 man noise marine squads with blast masters
and 6 man squads with doom sirens in rhinos is pretty good.
Back it up with a pair of mauler fiends, a heldrake and 2 units of bikes (with IoE) and your probably looking at the beginnings of a mean army.
Can't emphasize that Icon of Excess enough. Every game its paid for itself usually two or three times even though its only a 5+
depends on the squad. I wouldn't buy it for a 5 man blastmaster squad, or a 3 man bike squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristopholes
But a 5 man bike squad or 10 man siren/CSM squad, sure it rocks then
An additional thought hit me regarding aggressive Noise Marine load outs which I will be testing. Rather than using the expensive Cypher Formation, I could just take Cypher. If Huron or Ahriman is my Warlord, I can ensure the unit of nine Noise Marines (per earlier post) is able to Outflank and I can just purchase Cypher alone without the Formation. This cuts prices a good deal and throws a nice perk into those Noise Marines coming in hot. They will gain the benefit of being Shrouded and having Hit & Run. For that matter, Cypher in a big nasty gun line of Noise Marines (say the 20 Strong firebase) is awesome because if your opponent actually reaches them to silence the guns, you just run after surviving combat (which you will do with that high number) and fall back during your opponent's turn and get to fire all over again as if you didn't move on your own turn. Hrm. Tasty in theoryhammer. I'll put it to the test soon.
*Hrm. And if I get a combined arms detachment in the army from Crimson Slaughter with some Divination per their Wargear, those Noise Marines have a damn good likelyhood of overwatching at full Ballistic Skill, as Cypher already does.
We discussed this last night. Shes narrowed it down to either starting with a couple of boxes of csm's and the noise marine upgrades, a hellbrute, a couple of bike squads and some spawn or possessed or dark vengeance and using the da's as fallen and getting Cypher to go with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
Sounds good. If you want noise marines. Have a look at the FW kacophani. Much nicer models in my opinion
Another thing to consider is custom Sonic Weaponry rather than buying the bits. It is quite easy to make very cool looking Sonic Blasters. The best versions I've seen involved those vicious little animal heads (often vehicle bits I believe) attached to guns. The larger ones, of course, were used for the Blast Masters. Doom Sirens merely require some kind of elevated attachment to your backpack with a nasty face or even the Dirge Caster bit with a cunning setting. I do own Noise Marines with the official sonic blasters but in all honesty they were more trouble than they were worth. If I had it to do over again, I would do the custom jobs in a heartbeat.
Man, I saw your other post and as you said then, it was meant for higher point matches. I could see the Noise Marine/Cypher mix working in an 1850 list easy. I'll probably try that out myself this weekend and see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caitsidhe
I suggest against the possessed only bc unless they come with the battleforce, they're expensive monetarily and in-game while not being all that great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
Well Cypher by himself can work in lower points games, and is ideal to give Shrouded and Hit & Run to key shooting units. Now using Cypher with the Fallen Champions Formation definitely needs a high point game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristopholes
Any pictures/links to the custom noise marines?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caitsidhe
Let me look. Since my Noise Marines aren't custom, I'll have to contact the player who does use them and ask for some. I might just build one real quick to show you. :D Give me till Sunday. I have the bits required to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
So if she decides to go with 2 10 man noise marine squads, 2 rhinos, 2 helbrutes, a 5 man bike squad and some spawn, who should the HQ choice be?
chaos slaanesh lord (makes the noise marines troops) on a bikeQuote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
LOL, that is practically the CSM army I run all the time =P (I swap 2 helbrutes for chosen with melta in 1 rhino...)Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
Thanks man. So she decided on the 2 10 man noise marine squads, 2 rhinos, 2 helbrutes, chaos spawn and a 5 man bike squad with the chaos lord on the bike.Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
Thanks everyone for the help.
sounds good, and fairly solid for the kind of games your after