The rule Smash makes you ap 2 and allows you to do smash attacks correct? page 42 main rulebook under monstrous creatures. Now would that make a hive tyrant ap 2 with his boneswords?
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The rule Smash makes you ap 2 and allows you to do smash attacks correct? page 42 main rulebook under monstrous creatures. Now would that make a hive tyrant ap 2 with his boneswords?
Yes it would. You're AP2 in melee all the time (unless you're AP1), and - completely separately - you have the option to halve your Attacks and double your Strength in melee.
Think of it like this: your model that has the Smash USR always fights with Smash -- but you can choose, at any time in cc, to make a special "Smash Attack" that doubles your Strength but divides your number of Attacks by two.
Except your tail attacks. Because no one has ever smashed anything with a mace tail...
http://3219a2.medialib.glogster.com/...saurus-jpg.jpg
Thanks folks for clearing that up. Ive never used monstrous creatures before besides my demon prince that has the ap 2 axe. Now may i ask whats the point of the swarmlord? Instant death and 4+ inv? Other then that i think u can make a cheaper tyrant as good.
Because She is a force multiplier: 3 powers that buff/debuff, hands out candy USRs, and is still a beatstickQuote:
Originally Posted by Vangrail
That's why it is str 8Quote:
Originally Posted by evilamericorp
It's no big deal as I probably still wouldn't buy them, but I do think the tail biomorphs could have had a little more oomph for what they cost and what they are.
As for the Swarmlord, yeah he's basically there to make other units in your army a lot scarier at any given moment, and is ML3 which is lovely. He then also butchers most things in close combat, and what he can't beat (a rather short list of things, although slightly larger now that they for some reason removed the forced re-rolling of invulnerable saves) you can just throw something else more appropriate at. Also he always gets the good warlord trait, Synaptic Lynchpin. Your call on whether you want to take him and have that or have another warlord roll on strategic, which is also good for Tyranids.
I just can't see tail attacks being that strong. Pay 10 points; get a bonus attack.
That's how you should look at it.
Swarmlord is also the only Tyrant to have an invulnerable save, albeit combat only. That's pretty saucy right there.
High strength no AP weapons in this game are stupid. Why can it smash a Space Marine Chapter Master to pulp in one hit, yet can be stopped by a Catachan Flak Muscle Shirt?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel
What is this raging hate boner you have for Tyranids? Why do you want everything in the book to be bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel
Tell that to anyone that's been smacked by a Croc or Aligator tail and I don't think you'll like the language they hit you with for saying it... :) Believe me, you'd rather be hit with his/her claws than the tail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel
That's because they look like Rambo, and you know Rambo is super duper tough and can't be hurt by a rocket launcher (S8) let alone a wimpy little nid MC. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by evilamericorp
Yeah. Exactly my point. They are still alive, not dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bower
I don't have a hate boner. *YOU* are the one with the hate boner. I am just recognizing that bugs don't need redonkulous rules that don't make sense to be fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by evilamericorp
I have been playing bugs since they came out. I still have the original plastic Warriors, hugger Carnifexes, and *flamespurt* gargoyles. Don't tell me that I don't like Bugs.
High strength does not equate armor piercing. I could totally see Marbo being hit by the mace and go flying, but not be dead. I cannot see Marbo being picked up by a crushing claw and *ever* making it out alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by evilamericorp
except in real life it kinda does.
Historically a mace was designed as an "anti armour" style weapon, because it relies on blunt force trauma it transmits the impact through the armour to the man inside, effectively ignoring the armour.
Or a modern take would be sabot rounds in tanks, they rely on kinetic force to do the damage not chemical explosives.
of course I see the game balance perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
Shockwave physics is not necessarily what is being talked about here.
That's where AP2 comes from Monsterous Creatures. The shockwave physics.
Str 8 is just a momentum transfer.
Sabot rounds are not 'high strength'. Those are high velocity rounds, causing shockwaves.
Think of str8 more like Men in Black, and the big bug just slapping Jay around. That's str8. Jay's not wearing armor. He just happens to make his 6+ save multiple times in a row. The cook, in the restaurant, on the other hand, fails his 6+ save and is crushed by Instant Death.
Yeah, I'm sure that GW's sitting there with their pocket protectors and calculators thinking 'but how does the energy wave propagate through ceramite? What if we run a finite element analysis to find the weak points in power armor to justify Rending?"
That's what Tech Priests do. They just call it 'runes of armor initiation'.
I don't think they think about it that way with actual calculators. However, I'm sure some of the guys/gals that work there have taken physics at some point in their life.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
Only the ones you can ask are, and then only the ones who didn't get a full on hit. Believe me, that tail can (and does) kill. And a croc/alligator is not the size of a double decker bus, or larger of course as in the case of Tyranids that have such an attack, if you want to equate it to something that size, check out Dragons in DnD, whose tail can do a heck of a lot of damage. It doesn't kill because DnD of course is heroic fiction and you can't have the main PC's dying outright because nobody would play, they are considered more or less to have 'eternal warrior' for all intents and purposes. But any creature the size of a Hive Tyrant or larger smacking you down with it's tail will undoubtedly kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel
Tyrant tail attack-str 6 AP5. Yup. That'll kill just about anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bower
That's exactly the problem though- it has a reasonable AP to go along with the high S. It's the attack with S8 and AP- that makes no sense. How can you hit something hard enough to inflict the damage equivalent to a krak missile and have it bounce off even the lightest armor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel
A lot depends on how the force is deployed.
Usain Bolt when running full tilt is more energetic than a speeding bullet (obviously depending on bullet type etc.) but if he hits you, you would not expect to die, it is possible, you could crack your head on the floor badly, but it is remote. High strenght low ap. Then a bullet less, powerful, could kill you relatively easily because it is designed to penetrate.
Ever seen a deer get hit by a car going 60 and walk away like nothing happened? Or the parachutist who fell two miles to the ground, landed on a bush and only had slight scrapes and bruises? Or the 8-month old Chinese baby that was stabbed in the face 90 times with a pair of scissors and survived just fine (with 90 stitches admittedly)? Stuff just happens in the right way and things don't get hurt (much).Quote:
Originally Posted by DWest
I would put that under 'rolling a 1 to wound'. Personally, I'd like to see the macetail be S8 AP4- basically a giant power maul.
I already answered this:Quote:
Originally Posted by DWest
[url]http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41040-quot-Smash-quot-rule-and-Smash-Attacks&p=389410&viewfull=1#post389410[/url]
There we go. It is just a giant tail. If you are between a rock and a hard place, that tail squishes you. Otherwise, you just get battered around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katharon
That doesn't work, he's a guy doing what? 25 - 30 mph, yet you're saying he'll hit with more force than a bullet doing nearly a thousand? I doubt that. I know a bullet weighs bugger all, but all that force is on the point. and bugger moving at e=mc squared, is still a lot of power when c squared is 1 million X the weight of the bullet. Compared to maybe 12 stone going at 600.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfshade
Except that "shockwave physics" would be a better argument for the attack to have a high AP, rather than AP-, as the energy is transmitted through the armor. Also, "sabots" are simply a method of loading a subcaliber round into a smoothbore firearm. If what you're referring to is a kinetic penetrator (of which class the "sabot" as in armor-piercing-fin-stabilized-discarding-sabot round is a member), the point of that type of ammunition is to minimize any shockwave effects by concentrating the energy over as small a cross-section as possible (hence why the projectile looks like an arrow or dart) in order to punch through thick armor, rather than simply ringing the whole target like a bell. Again, the concept of a very large club having no AP is contradictory both to physics *and* the established design of 40k (see power mauls).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel
Usain Bolt weights 94kg, and can sprint at 12.27m/s. That's 7076 Joules.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bower
An average .22lr, one of the smallest commonly available bullets, travels at approximately 300-500 m/s and weights 30-40 grains, depending on load. That's a range of about 100-200 Joules.
A .556, the NATO standard assault rifle round, has a muzzle velocity of 940 m/s, and weights about 60gr, for 1700-1800 Joules.
A 7.62, the NATO standard battle rifle/light sniper rifle round, and reasonably lethal out to about 800m has a muzzle velocity of 800m/s at 150gr, for 2500 Joules.
A .338, what's commonly becoming the new standard sniper round for most nations around the world, lethal out to well beyond 2000m, has a muzzle velocity around 1000m/s, weighs 300gr, and delivers about 5000 Joules on impact.
A .50BMG, the most common heavy sniper/machine gun round, lethal out to as far as you can hit something with it, weighs 650-800gr, has a muzzle velocity around 900m/s, and delivers up to 14,000 Joules on impact.
So, if Usain Bolt went jousting on foot, he could easily kill someone.
Um.....john.....in the E=MCsquared equation....the C value doesn't equal the mass of the object, that C is the universal constant (The speed of light) its the M that is the mass component of the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bower
edit: Furthermore, E=MCsquared is the wrong equation for what your trying to calculate, that one governs the changes in an objects mass as it approaches the speed of light.
I am talking about shock wave physics that cause spaulation. aka High AP.Quote:
Originally Posted by DWest
The giant tail is just a lot of mass over a lot of area.
I assume you mean Spallation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tynskel
If thats the case then you have missed the entire point.
A shockwave doesn't need to cause spallation to kill....in fact thats kinda the point.
Shockwaves propagate through solid with less energy loss than they do liquids, and then gasses. As such they don't "penetrate" a material in the sense your talking about, they straight up bypass it, and impart the entire (or most) of the force onto the object on the other side....and THAT'S! what kills and that's why maces should technically speaking have a lower AP....because they break your face whether your wearing a helmet or not....which, historically, was the entire point.
I'll put it another way,
There is a reason that the primary injuries cause by explosives are contributed to the over pressure (shock wave) and not fragmentation or burns
Cheers DL, saved me the back of the envelope.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
Neither Usain nor the bullet would be travelling relativistically, instead use the formula for Kinetic Energy, (E = 1/2 mv^2) then integrate along time.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Bower
I was kind of thinking they could be 5pts cheaper or do a little bit more to make them worth it.
Usain Bolt jousting on foot is cool too though I guess.
I feel like that would make a great XKCD What-if? question.
You don't need to lecture me on physics.Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder
This is what I do for a living.
The mace is sending the force over a small area. The shockwave that transfers into the other object is similar to spallation in that the wave front encounters a medium change with a large density difference. This changes the velocity of the wave front, and causes reflections. It is the reflections and wave speed changes that cause the 'over pressure' that you are describing.
The Tail attack doesn't do that. See:
[url]http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41040-quot-Smash-quot-rule-and-Smash-Attacks&p=389410&viewfull=1#post389410[/url]
Linking to an incorrect answer still doesn't make it correct.