Assassins - Take em or leave em?

Last evening I had a discussion about Assassins.
Take em or leave em?

Background: Friend of mine plays Witch Hunters with inducted IG. Most of the time my army (orks atm) faces three exorcist tanks, immolators, chimeras, melter troops... whatever, not the point here. ;)

Question is, if assassins are worth taken?

Drawbacks (all of them)
Generally they have only T4, so they are instantly killed by S8 weapons and power fists in CC.
"Only" S4 with 4 attacks on the charge.
Pricey from 95 to 120 points.

Advantages (all of them)
Invul save of 4+
Decent stats, besides T and S.


Culexus:
Don't know what to do with this guy overall. Gimme hints, please :p

Callidus:
C'tan Weapon: Looks nice, no saves for the enemy in CC
Neural shredder: Reads fun, because you have to hit the enemy's LD instead of T. But you have to roll a 5+ to hit LD 9. Bad chances. Only affective against orcs, I assume.

Eversor:
Was a monster in old editions, but in 5th, I don't know.

Vindicare:
Is he more than an average sniper (Eldar, IG)? He can pick single models and shoot into CC, which is at least nice. Special ammo is for single use only.


So whats the deal with the "we look fancy, because we wear black" guys???
I'm looking forward to your comments.

(btw. If some unit descriptions read odd, please excuse me. I only have german rulebooks here :rolleyes:).

The assassins were hugely improved with the new Guard codex and the Psyker Battle Squads.

PBS+Culexus - for every psyker within 12" the Culexus gets an additional shot with his S5AP1 weapon. Full PBS means he has a S5AP1 Assault 10 gun.

PBS+Callidus - reduce a squad's leadership to 2 using the PBS' Weaken Resolve then hit it with the Neural Shredder to wound on 2s with an AP1 template.

The Eversor and Vindicare don't benefit from the PBS, and remain pretty underwhelming. Out of the two the Eversor will perform better. Get it into melee with appropriate targets and it'll do damage. It's too easy for the Vindicare to sit around doing nothing. It'll wound on a 4+ which is extremely easy to fluff and it only has one shot per turn. It does have one special round that wounds on a 2+, and that's really one guaranteed wound - hits on 2+, wounds on 2+, AP2. Beyond that, he won't make his points back or contribute anything useful.

Legionary makes a great points about the PBS - very nice combo.

Personally, im not the most competitive gamer .. i tend to use what i think is cool rather than what i think will win games... case in point, i have a marine army based on flamers (built in the days before Vulkan's kick *** rule) surprisingly, the army is pretty decent...

Anyway.. Assassins. . Gamers tend to rate units by how much the can kill OR how hard they are to kill.. but one often over-looked advantage of any unit is how disruptive they can be to the opponent's plan.

Assassins, especially the Vindicaire and the Callidus, are great to force the other player to change his game. They need to be used carefuly, with precision.. but thats what assassins are all about.

The 'deep strike' ability of the callidus is just nasty... nuff said.

The vindicaire, i think he's a bit underestimated. The ability to pick out and kill specific targets at a distance is very powerful... knocking off a Sarge with a PFist before your Pen. Engine charges in is great. Slicing down apothecaries in command squads... a melta gun model thats getting too close to a vehicle you want to keep alive... I wish he was MORE reliable and that his special rounds weren't one use only.. but sitill.

In Apocalypse i use the 3 Vindicaire formation and its great fun. You'd be surprised how often the enemy pumps all his fire at a lone 100+ point model instead of the 400 point unit nearby.

I think the only assains GW must keep, are those 4. The death cult assasins are just non sense...

I wish GW would just man up and fill out the other 4 Temples.

I use a Vindicare to hilarious effect in most games. I've killed a Land Raider with a Vindicare.

I've killed a Land Raider with a Zzap Gun. Doesn't make it reliable :P

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Originally Posted by TheKingElessar

I've killed a Land Raider with a Zzap Gun. Doesn't make it reliable :P

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Does however make them hilarious

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Originally Posted by Inquisitor McSagington

Does however make them hilarious

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...and sometimes hilarity is its own reward! :D

No doubt.

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Originally Posted by TheKingElessar

I've killed a Land Raider with a Zzap Gun. Doesn't make it reliable :P

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Originally Posted by Inquisitor McSagington

Does however make them hilarious

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and that the point

To sum up the post of the first page:
- Assassins have their place in the showcase but not on the table.
- There are some neat tricks when combined with PBS
- (other post are rather rant than helpful hints :p).

Other thoughts, comments are welcome, of course.

The Callidus Assassin is nearly worth her points just for the "A Word in Your Ear" ability (you get to move an opponent's unit up to 6" after deployment). Nothing like taking an IC and moving him out into the open to be eaten alive :)

I do love the Callidus. The word in your ear, plus a turn one, plus imperial guard = fun.

Strangely enough, my favorite is the Culexus assassin. I started off with an Eversor assassin, who proved his worth time and time again, but after a while I got bored of a unit that would basically kill off his points value, then promptly die. I moved on to the Callidus, hearing many good things about it. I was, frankly, disappointed. True, the Callidus ignores all saves, can jump out of combat, appear anywhere, and use her neural shredder, but targets are a problem. Anything worth ignoring all saves will probably kill her before she gets to jump out again, targets with low enough Ld to be hurt generally aren't worth using your 120 point assassin to go kill, and appearing anywhere isn't that great if she fails to do anything. I've never used a Vindicare: that's what Telion is for.

Now the Culexus. True, it's the weakest of all the assassins in close combat, but the Culexus is much more of a surgical scalpel than any other Assassin. Consider simply the Animus Speculum. In and of itself, it's a good gun with 2 S5 AP1 shots. But, when you start adding in psykers, it becomes an absolutely brutal weapon. And yet, a psyker could be considered fairly rare. So if not the Animus, then what?

Soulless.

This rule is the living, breathing reason you take the Culexus. Any other rules are just nice bonuses to help him do what he does. If you get a Culexus into the middle of an enemy force, then those nice Whirlwind barrages are pinning the enemy on Leadership 6. Your Assault squads that won by four kills? Yeah, they sweep the enemy if they fail a Ld THREE check. You can keep their entire army tied up with just a few good barrages, and pinning. IG benefit from this even more, with artillery pieces and mortars out the wazoo. Oh, and the Etherium makes it extremely hard to take the Culexus out, more so than any other assassin.

I like the sound of that :)

Back in 3rd, or early 4th (not sure which, twas several years ago) I lost an entire Squad of Wraithguard, and a 'Lord, to an Eversor. Since then...I honestly don't think I've seen one grace a table.

Hi Rookie1 -- we've done lots of talking about Assassins on our end too. The new 5E rules were a bit of a blow to them (mostly the changes in the way close combat works), but they can still be a very effective addition to an army. I think they even have their place in competitive armies, especially using the "Using WH/DH as Allies" rules for Imperial Guard.

I'm just going to talk about using assassins in an Imperial Guard army (not using Inducted Imperial Guard) because that's where you can find the best tricks.

1. Astropath: The +1 (or +2) to reserve rolls can make almost all of the Assassins more effective. In combination with outflanking, you suddenly get a lot more options for the Culexus and Eversor.

2. Battle Psyker Squad: This relatively inexpensive squad can yield 9 psykers, making the Culexus Animus Speculum an Assault 11 gun. Make sure to put them in a Chimera (to keep them from having to make Leadership tests).

3. Weaken Resolve: There are a couple of nasty tricks here. First of all, you can use Weaken Resolve in combination with the Callidus Neural Shredder (giving you a wound on a 2+, AP1 insta-kill T4 template). It does nasty things to Nobs and T4 characters. Secondly, the Eversor's pinning shots become a lot more formidable. Finally, the Culexus Ethermium and Psyk-Out grenades become very effective against units targeted by Weaken Resolve.

4. Orders: Assassins can be the target of Imperial Guard orders, so you can use Bring the Big One Down! on the Callidus' Neural Shredder, Fire on My Target! for the Culexus' Animus Speculum or For the Honor of Cadia to give the Eversor Furious Charge or Like the Wind! to give your Assassin an extra D6" move.

5. I still love the Vindicare, but he took a big hit (although I do like the Rending Exitus Rifle) in 5E. The ubiquitous cover save makes his job tougher -- even with the Spy Mask. And I really hate losing the second shot with the Exitus Pistol. But he's still great for taking out Chaos Icons, Power Fist Sergeants and

So if you like options, then an Assassin is great. They add a lot of chaos to a game and can even rarely turn a loss into a win. I suspect I'll keep using my Vindicare until I finally bring down a Landraider with a turbo-penetrator. Then I can retire him.

-- MKerr

Not understanding the absence of the Death Cult assassins. Running a WH force, I find the DCA's make for wonderful distractions for a number of reasons.

First, for 40 points a pop, they can easily make their points back once in combat. Secondly, because they are moved/targeted independently, it makes it difficult to take them all out in a single turn of shooting (this is, of course, barring multiple units firing at them, or a template weapon). Running two or more, and having them work in tandem makes them very devastating.

Admittedly, a lot of their success depends on liberal use of cover, and smart placement during deployment (in your deployment zone, or through infiltrating). However, using them in combination with almost any of the temple assassins, or even as a way to counter an opponents infiltrators, I feel they have become a valuable mainstay of my forces.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Not understanding the absence of the Death Cult assassins. Running a WH force, I find the DCA's make for wonderful distractions for a number of reasons.

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I've always been a staunch advocate of DCAs, but they lost too much in the new addition. They just aren't as effective at controlling close combats (running down enemies and slamming into the next fight). You'll get one decent close combat out of them and they'll be dead -- giving tons of KP to your opponent.

5E has just changed the game too much; while they may get their cost back, they certainly won't get back their kill points.

I fully intend to find a place for my DCAs (I have 9 of them, lol), but it may be in Planetstrike.

-- MKerr

9 DCA's just sounds sexy.

I keep forgetting about KP games (as my group tends not to play those often, as we grew bored of standard meat grinders sometime ago). Though, I suppose a case could be made for them as a way of tar pitting cheap, ineffective assault units the enemy has... But then again, I am likely grasping at straws in that case.

I think all bar the Culexus and Vindicare have a role to play.

Eversor: A straightforward killing machine, equally adept at ripping apart T4 infantry (has a poisioned power weapon essentially, hence re-rolls to wound on T4 or less) or killing MC's (his I5 and large number of attacks mean even Greater Daemons should be worried). Outflank has breathed new life into him, it's caught more than one player off guard (he has a 12" charge range) when he's arrived on their flank and eaten a Devastator squad etc.

Callidus: More a precision weapon, she's really only suited to picking on T4 characters/heavy infantry. Her real bonus is 'A Word In Your Ear', which can be game-changing. Essentially, the Callidus lets you pick an enemy infantry unit and kill them with total impunity. She is very vulnerable to ganking in combat (unlike Eversor she doesnt cause enough wounds to win combat decisively), so pick your target carefully.

Death-Cult: At the same price as a Terminator, you ditch the 2+ armour and any ranged attacks for Infiltrate, more attacks and I5. Used correctly (ie grouped together), they make the Eversor and Callidus much more dangerous. Infiltrating them en-masse at a set target is both effective and hilarious; each Assassin has to be shot individually (yes, that does suck in 'Annhilation', but my gaming group largely plays objective missions for that precise reasons ie KP's are retarded), and each Assassins pumps out 4 x S4 power weapon attacks on the charge. They also each resolve Sweeping Advance seperately.
Do not Outflank them, unless you've got some powerful reserve bonuses (IG Astropaths, Varro Tigerious etc). Their key to success is as support to an Eversor or Callidus. They can let the Death-Cult clear out the chaff (ie retinues, attached squad, big infantry units), while he/she goes for the character or MC.

This thread is convincing me to possibly play around with an Eversor assassin. Though the model is annoying.

I have a quick Callidus question:

For the Neural Shredder do you use the LD that the unit currently has or the default LD?
example: ork slugga ldr 7 but is in a Mob with 15 boyz. Is his Ld 7 or 10 for the effects of the Shredder?

Taking 3 Death Cult Assassins, deploying them seperately and ahead of you main force is a good way to give you cover saves for the units behind.

I found last ed, they were the best of the Assassins to take for the above reason, but with the enemy being forced to take target priority checks to shoot other units, or keeping them close together, and making the enemy use 3 units to try and wipe them out.

Now I'm not sure which Assassin works best now, I still have a soft spot for the Vindicare and Eversor though

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Originally Posted by Astrothumps

I have a quick Callidus question:

For the Neural Shredder do you use the LD that the unit currently has or the default LD?
example: ork slugga ldr 7 but is in a Mob with 15 boyz. Is his Ld 7 or 10 for the effects of the Shredder?

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I'm fairly sure that the mob rule is only for morale tests, and not for leadership based tests.

I love the idea of snipers in 40K in general even if that 4+ to wound most of the time is not really reliable, but I think the ability of the Vindicare to hit lone models is pretty powerful (when it works) and just really cool in general. I play orks like the original poster, but when I'm just watching my friends play I always ask one of the Imperiium players to field his Vindicare and just let me play that 1 model... it brings me such joy and my excitement really amuses them, we all have a good time and hey, that's what should all be about!

Just thought I might add that due to a recent FAQ which declares the neural shredder a single handed weapon, the Callidus gets the +1 bonus for additional close combat weapon, thus granting 5 attacks on the charge. Not bad at all!

I've had various successes with my Vindicaire Assassin.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, having him pick off powerfist wielding sergeants or special weapons is incredibly effective, and scares the bejeezus out of your opponent. I've saved various important parts of my army by sniping threats from across the board.

However, much like any unit which gets the reputation of "Uh Oh! Not an [insert unit here]!" he tends to get a lot of attention, which I use to my advantage, as he can be used to bait units out of the opponents battle line into the jaws of my Assault units...

Having any unit that can, in the new wound allocation system accurately pcik of exactly the model you want is extremely useful.

I would use Assassins more as allies in my Imperial Guard army if I did not have to take an Inquisitor lord to enable me to take the assassin. I don't want to spend that many points on non guard stuff.

The assassin that is of the least use to me is the Vindicare assassin. One sniper shot a turn doesnt seem worth the points you spend.

Don't know about the other assassins as I don't use them, but the Callidus at least has 5 attacks on the charge, since the neural shredder counts as a one handed weapon per the FAQ.

In the few games I've played, the Callidus has consistently earned her points back, although she does die rather easily once she takes out the unit she's been sent against...

The trick with the Callidus is to be extremely discriminate with your target. If there ever was a surgical unit in 40k, she is it. This is simply due to her ability to pop up anywhere on the table, shred her target, and then charge in with 5 no save attacks. Ideally, you charge a unit that will survive combat, locking them in, until their assault phase, upon which you attempt to jump out of combat, and set up for another charge.

Doing precisely that, I find she is great for knocking out heavy weapons teams, HQ units, or other such nuisances.

As for what ld you use against the neural shredder, I believe it takes into consideration modified Ld's. I am not too savvy on Ork codex, so I am unsure how their bonus works, and whether or not it is a true bonus, or simply a replacement during morale checks.

Id' like to ask are all Officio Assassinorium Operative get Outflank in 5th ed?

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Originally Posted by Spellscape

Id' like to ask are all Officio Assassinorium Operative get Outflank in 5th ed?

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Both DH and WH Officio Assassinorum Operatives (that means all assassins :) ) have Infiltrate, so...yes, they can all Outflank.

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Originally Posted by Astrothumps

For the Neural Shredder do you use the LD that the unit currently has or the default LD? example: ork slugga ldr 7 but is in a Mob with 15 boyz. Is his Ld 7 or 10 for the effects of the Shredder?

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Yes, Mob Rule allows you to substitute the number of Ork in the mob for their normal Leadership value. I wouldn't recommend using a Neural Shredder against a 10-man Ork unit unless you manage to nail them with Weaken Resolve first.

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Originally Posted by Spellscape

Id' like to ask are all Officio Assassinorium Operative get Outflank in 5th ed?

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Yes, all Assassins have the Infiltrate rule (even the Callidus). Although I don't recommend that you outflank with the Callidus...

-- MKerr

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Originally Posted by mkerr

I've always been a staunch advocate of DCAs, but they lost too much in the new addition. They just aren't as effective at controlling close combats (running down enemies and slamming into the next fight). You'll get one decent close combat out of them and they'll be dead -- giving tons of KP to your opponent.

5E has just changed the game too much; while they may get their cost back, they certainly won't get back their kill points.

I fully intend to find a place for my DCAs (I have 9 of them, lol), but it may be in Planetstrike.

-- MKerr

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I find using 2 "units" of dca with my culexsus makes for good fun. They are fearless and so ignore the soulless trait but they enemy is still subject to it.

All I want is Frag grenades for the Assassins. Its sorta sad when one of the best weapons of mankind gets chumped by Pathfinders in cover :(.