I have an idea on how to kill a WK, in 1 turn. Take a nurgle daemon prince, give it a bale sword, wings, and zoom it toward the WK, then go first, 4+ poison it, and instant death it. Done and dusted, 300+ odd points gone.
Thoughts?
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I have an idea on how to kill a WK, in 1 turn. Take a nurgle daemon prince, give it a bale sword, wings, and zoom it toward the WK, then go first, 4+ poison it, and instant death it. Done and dusted, 300+ odd points gone.
Thoughts?
There are multiple ways to kill a Wraightknight. But consideration needs to be given that the Eldar player has forced you to deal with the knight at the expense of everything else. If it were a distraction, you have brought that, your prince is out of position near the enemy lines and would be ripe pickings.
Not to mention your unit costs nearly what the Wraithknight does....
Also i'm not sure it can move that fast, especially since your plan relies on you going first, in which case your opponent can deploy to counter it.
Ah, but the prince will have wings so it can catch up with the WK. Also, give it exalted rewards to up its survivablity, then the eldar army shoots at it, and not the other beasties moving up the board.
Maybe.
But to me this isn't a "to kill a wraithknight". This is "too kill any unit i don't like". Swarmlord, Tyrannofex, Command Squad, that tank that screws you over
Its an alpha strike tactic that kills anything
And then the eldar player will laugh after you sink more points into your model, only to have it countered by 20 models from his troops section. Guardians wound anything on a 6, at ap2. We loves your MC's.Quote:
Originally Posted by flashkid123
Depending on the configuration, don't think about "killing" it; think about "neutralizing" it. If you don't present it with good targets - i.e. you are mostly an infantry army and it has wraithcannons - you can afford to ignore it more than most. If you have sacrificial units - of which Tyranids have in abundance above all others - then just send them in (if you can catch it) while dealing with the rest of the army. I've found that shooting at it with a few heavy weapons here and there simply will not work; it is all or nothing, and for a unit with that price tag, I really don't think it is worth using an entire army (what it usually takes) to try and kill it in one turn. A smart Eldar player will play on the fact that it is scary and use it as the ultimate fire sink.
If your talking about neutralising it, take a mastery 3 psyker and hope you get puppet master. Imagine the look on the other players face! Their suncannon obliterating their precious *insert good eldar unit her*. :)
Being in range, casting the power, deny the witch....hmm. Isn't it a witchfire that has to roll to hit as well? Seems a bit too....unreliable, to me. Useful, obviously. I don't have the rulebook at hand, but I think it would be pretty easy for a Wraithknight to stay out of range.
most wraithknights will not be 300 points, if they take sun cannon/scatter laser for 5++ it will be 300, but melee knight with 5++ is 250 and 2 heavy d cannon is 240.
stock 240 is generally considered the best way to go so yea even if sucessful they will be in a great spot to light the prince up with serpent fire and/or reaper fire
Keep Wraithknights stock. Eldar can do AP2 elsewhere for cheaper. The Str10 guns make the Wraithknight more flexible than super-expensive blasts, and you don't really need the Invulnerable save.
How do you assault turn 1 if you go first?Quote:
Originally Posted by flashkid123
How about 300 points of Eldar Guardians? How many Shuricats is that?
It's nearly impossible to have a Daemon Prince in charge range on Turn 1, especially if the Daemons go first, unless the opponent Scouts or Infiltrates further into the middle of the table. The Nurgle Prince (which are excellent w 3 Biomancies and Balesword) would usually need to Swoop 24" and then Glide/Assault Turn 2. Assuming it nixed the Wraithknight (decent assumption unless the WK is not in cover or gets hit w a Skull Cannon first) then the rest of the Eldar army would be free to shoot the crap out of the Daemon Prince, in which case it would probably die.
If possible, I think a better way would be Krak Missiles, after Enfeebling, and Vector Striking too. Massed Vector Striking can be a very good use of FMCs.
Puppet Master is 24" range I think, so very unlikely to be cast in Turn 1 if the Daemons go first. It does not roll to hit, as it's a Malediction, but that would be pretty awesome to turn the WK onto its own brethren pointy-heads. But with S10 or other ID weapons on the table, I go for Biomancies in the hopes of Iron Arm.
My thoughts are that this will not work... In a GK, SW, DA, BA, BT, or SM army.Quote:
Originally Posted by flashkid123
Killed three in the last week in the exact same way: Drop Pod Sternguard. 20 Hellfire rounds hitting on 3's + wounding on 2's = Dead Wraithknight and first blood.
10 Sternguard within 12" of the knight (and presumably the rest of the eldar army), means you traded a 285 point unit for a 240-250 pt unit, and although your chances are very good to take it out (or make it mostly dead and thus vulnerable to a cannon or two), I am not sure how trading 'knights' is a good strategy
Maybe a better question/challenge is how do you kill the wraithknight with: the least amount of points/least amount of risk
Lets assume you have the same amount of points to spend and keep it at base cost for the knight: 240 pts
You kill a wraith knight the same way you kill tyranid big bugs...
1. Sternguard in a pod...2+ poison *20 shots...he will fail 3+ saves
2. Dark eldar...lances or poison...shoot the lances 1st and make him give up saves (obviously re think this if his toe is in area terrain)...I like trueborn with the duke or even normal warriors in a raider with racks...heck take 20 warriors give them a hemo, the duke and a conceal farseer or spirit seer....(obviously points heavy but meh)
Yup. Of course, I don't know why he didn't just reserve the Wraithknight. But whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Freedom
Also the average of 20 shots * 2/3 hit *5/6 wound *1/3 failed saves is only 3.7 so you have to get pretty lucky to put it down in one round as it has 6 wounds. If it has the suncannon (a fairer points comparison), you will lose most of the sternguard in return fire and/or get kicked to death in assault (only 1 wound on average even with the full squad firing on overwatch, subtantially less if the eldar shoot you a bit first)
First one: I had an Achilles on the table. Only thing she had that could kill it reliably was the Wraithknight and, in the opinion of my opponent, it had to die before the Thunderfire cannon could open up.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
Second Time: They won first turn roll off, it's just that I seized.
Third: Same scenario as the second.
I lucked out.Quote:
Originally Posted by isotope99
2 venoms with dual splinter cannons each does the trick for me. 75 each as I do love me my night shields. Takes em out in 1-2 turns depending on whether I roll unnaturally horrible or not.
your dice were grea tthen... plus you probably have more points in that squad than your opponent does in the wraithknight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Freedom
statistically you have 13.3 hits 11.1 wounds 3.7 unsaves wounds
as far as investment you have 10 sternguard at 250 in a 35 point pod. 285... unless they go with the most expensive loadout you would reasonably take (suncannon/shield and scatter laser at 300). even then they will punk you in an assault the next turn unless you already softened it up with a few mroe woulnd which means they are still probably going to rain down a shuriken death on the sternguard.
it is certainly a way to deal with it, but seems mroe along the lines of your oppenent should statistically be coming ahead in this exchange.
Didn't feel like devoting my two predators to the death of the Wraithknight when there were two Wraithlords stomping around as well.
So many ways to drop him in just one round of shooting.
But here are two ways to do it with just one shot.
Illic; shoots needing 2+ to hit and then rolls a 6 bang one shot kill.
A Squad of Wraithguard disembark from Wave Serpent and like Illic all they need is to roll a 6 on a wound roll.
As for other ways there are Snipers, Las Cannon Heavy Weapon Sections can drop him fairly quickly.
A real smart Eldar player would not even take one because there are so many better choices in the Heavy Support, War Walkers, Fire Prism's (can get two of these for nearly the same point cost as a naked WK.
It only has two shots unless you really want to spend the points and only has four attacks and will need 4+ to hit most things in Close Combat.
So sucky firepower and not a Hand-to-hand model either with a okay save except when being hit with AP 3 weapons.
Oh and good thing this is not 2nd or 3rd Edition because can we say Vortex Grenade. Lost my Avatar many times to that.
No if you are facing an Eldar player with one of these on the table ignore it and go after his other units. Once they have been dealt with it should be easy to kill then.
Seriously, Sainhann? Go to frontpage BOLS. Click on the latest article by Reecius, one of the best Eldar players there is. See what he has to say about the Wraithknight. You do not know what you are talking about.
Yeah its a good thing this model wasn't released 15 years ago, or it would not have been any good....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sainhann
As for "ignore it". If you've got an army that can ignore the firepower that thing puts out with no problems...good for you.
Your reasons for not taking one are the same as every other MC. Or Vehicle (why take a land raider? I could shoot it once with a lascannon and roll a 6!)
A vanquisher or two with Beast Hunter Shells, 72" BS4 Twin-linked (co-ax rule) S8 AP2 Instant Death.
Take an Armored Company as allies and have a couple of these with standard Russes for troop choices.
As a nid player I can only speal for my Codex.
I enfeebled one so it took a couple of wounds from a lot Devourers and was tarpitted by Termagants. My buddy was using a Revenant Titan instead I think you'll agree it looks kind of comical
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/K8...0=w302-h402-no
I had a brain fart and was also convinced the Termagants could wound it, for some reason I keep thinking they're St4, once we reinstated the two wounds I thought they'd caused a Warp Speed Tervigon came in and smashed it to pieces.
However, that's still a lot to bring it down, the Termagants as a tarpit was neat but I did think Tyranid Shrikes with Toxin Sacs, lash whips and boneswords or, a Prime with LW+BS with warriors with boneswords might do it for less than the cost of the Wraithknight. Wounding on 4's and no armour saves seems a possibilty for unit of 3 Warriors - 12 attacks on the charge, but I may be missing something I don't have the Wraithknight stats or Tyranid Codex to hand.
How many of these "methods to kill it" are things you'd include in a standard all comers list? WOuld you run these units in a tournie, or just if you knew you were facing one of these beasties
For the most part, I don't see a need to single out the Wraithknight. As others have commented, most of the means of killing the Wraithknight are the same means I would use to kill any Monstrous Creature or particularly troublesome unit. I think the mobility of the Wraithknight limits your melee options to Flying Monstrous Creatures if you want to engage it in a reliable way. I suspect most people will kill it thus:
1. Shoot it with appropriate with mid to long range, high strength AP-1 or 2 weapons (or Poison) and attrition it as much as possible.
2. Engage it with deadly FMC which strikes before it to finish it off. *Or unit with poison in melee to kill it by volume.
It's totally killable - it costs the same as a Land Raider after all. Like the Raider, you can certainly kill the thing, but you are going to have to try. Its not going down to incidental fore from piecemeal units.
I agree with Reecius who is both one of the best Eldar players in the world and a personal friend. The Wraithknight is an auto-include because it offers something the Eldar codex didn't have before, a combination of speed, resiliance, and a player-fear inducing weapons loadout.
It's main value will be not the actual killing it does, but the zone/board control it gives the Eldar player. It's fast enough to stay out of most trouble, yet potent enough to make players think twice before moving units peicemeal into its zone of control - which gives the Eldar a perfect tool for winning missions and managing objectives.
Only the Wraithlord, or the older 4th Edition Holo-falcons had that kind of resilience in the past, and neither was as good as the Wraithknight.
I think this speaks volumes to its survivability, its not that it can't be killed, but did you opponent bring the tools for the job, especially when he is facing it from across the table at a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrLove42
I repect Reecius and his comments on the Wraithknight, it has made me re-consider it as more than just a centerpiece, although I still don't know about its true versatility. I have watched the BatReps he posted, the wraithknight wasn't bad in any of them, but neither was it I think OMGAMAZING!
Maybe a batrep with it pitted against the Tau gunline and the also against the FMC/Hound rush, using the same list and then see just how amazing or meh it is. I am sure Reecius has access to buddies with lists like those, consider that a challenge on their behalf! I would love to see the reps
Are you kidding? In the one against CSM Nurgle his Wraithknight killed a Daemon Prince, 4-5 Obliterators, and then sprinted across the board to kill a unit of cultists that was going for an objective that nothing else in Reecius' army was in position to reach. And he did it all while rolling absolutely terribly. I don't know how much it killed in the other games, but it was always doing something useful. I know against IG Frankie wasted a couple of turns of firepower shooting at it, and the Wraithknight got into his deployment zone and wiped out his remaining scoring units and prevented him from chasing after the Relic, so even if it didn't kill its points it had a solid performance.
I'm not kidding. :) I think the Wraithknight is a fine model and very durable. I'm just saying that is the best option for CSM to kill it (or anyone). You attrition what wounds you can prior to hitting it with something solid and hopefully turning it off before it gets to retaliate.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
I don't, interesting since I have been playing Eldar since when they first came out and that was what 23 years ago. So I know Eldar and I know what is needed to kill things. Oh and I do know what I am talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
Sure if your opponent is running an Elite or vehicle heavy army the Wraithknight should do quite well. But against the Imperial Guard army that I tend to run it will not do well because I only run with a few low point Chimera's and a ton of troops.
Sure it not built to take out a Wraithknight since it is built to take out vehicles that get to close to my troops. It has nothing but cannon fodder in it.
But Sniper's, Poison attacks, Las Cannons, Wraithquard, Fire Dragons, Terminator's with Shields, troops with Melta Bombs etc... can kill a Wraithknight and some of them can do it in one turn or just one shot.
Like everything in the game some army builds will absolutely hate the Wraithknight and others will giggle with glee when it is deployed. The all comers army that I dread facing in tourney's is Dark Eldar... I believe they come down on the 'giggle with glee' side when the Wraithknight comes out.
Q. How do you kill a Wraithknight
A. Same way people have been killing Wraithlords for the last 15 years, except twice!
Moving On!
I meant literally, you said you didn't think the Wraithknight performed particularly well in any of the games, despite one where it killed like 600pts on its own and denied an objective to the enemy. That specifically is a pretty good performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caitsidhe
Edit:
Take a couple Wave Serpents, and you'll practically auto-win that matchup though. Mechdar is super-awesome against DE. That's one bad matchup you can wave off (heh, pun).Quote:
The all comers army that I dread facing in tourney's is Dark Eldar... I believe they come down on the 'giggle with glee' side when the Wraithknight comes out.
I didn't say that? Did I? I don't remember commenting on how well the darn thing performs at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink