Invulnerable save not all that anymore?

How do!

More rambling a from the festering pit of nonsense that is my mind I'm afraid!

In 6th Edition, I've started to see invulnerable saves fall slightly by the way side. Given the change to Power Weapons, and the advent of Look Out Sir! I've been finding it harder and harder to justify the points value of the Phase Shifter. In 5th, I loaded up on both those and Sempiternal Weaves. Now due to the two reasons above I find the 2+ save to be plenty good enough. Granted my heavy hitters have a glorious T5 which helps in HTH, but seeing as only Powerfists and Axes can ignore my save in fisticuffs, I am confident just dropping my Overlord into a bodyguard of Warscythe toting Lychguard.

But I'm digressing and getting too specific in terms of my army of choice.

To those others with access to a 2+ save, do you find this is enough, or do you feel my approach is just asking for a nasty old fisting/axing?

I think that "Look Out Sir!" means that we'll see fewer lists put a ++ save on the leader and embed him in a squad of goons who only have + saves. However, the opposite strategy - putting one or two guys with ++ saves in a squad to soak up damage, like Tau shield drones - might still be worthwhile. I also think that entire squads with ++ saves will remain incredibly durable and effective units, that we'll still see in play. Nothing beats having an entire squad enjoy ++ saves.

Certainly Terminators are indeed a nightmare these days.

But although I'm struggling to think of one, what of those units where it's an upgrade? Best example I can think of is Storm Shields. Is that boost really necessary these days, at least for combined arms Terminator squads?

Due to the new allocation rules, I think you'll see fewer points spent on ++ where possible. For example, I've been using 3 Crusaders in front of a big unit of Inquisitorial Henchmen. It takes a lot of firepower to knock out those 3 guys. Same with any unit where a ++ upgrade is available, I think you'll start to see a few guys at the front of units with it.

I also noticed that I was willing to send in a 2+ character to a combat as I wasn't worried about power weapons.

In short, yes, but over the long run as 6th codices are released and more AP2 melee weapons are available, I think you'll see them come back to the level that they were around in say, 3rd-4th edition.

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

Certainly Terminators are indeed a nightmare these days.

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These days? Terminators in close combat have been a nightmare for me since 5th Edition when the powerhouse books were released. I went from being CSM... the in your face guys... to ugly Tau. :) For me nothing has changed in 6th Edition. I shoot them to death.

Fair points all.

Now, how about units such as Thousand Sons? Has the change raised their stock, lowered it or had no affect? Is it mainly access to a 2+ save that changes things the most?

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

Fair points all.

Now, how about units such as Thousand Sons? Has the change raised their stock, lowered it or had no affect? Is it mainly access to a 2+ save that changes things the most?

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I'd say it really only affects units with a 2+ save. AP3 Power Weapons still ignore their power armor, and they still have the same invulnerable as before. So for that unit, no change. I'd say the major change is to characters, and units like Grey Knights Terminators/Paladins, who now don't need the Nemesis Force Sword ++ bump as much and can take other weapons.

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

Certainly Terminators are indeed a nightmare these days.

But although I'm struggling to think of one, what of those units where it's an upgrade? Best example I can think of is Storm Shields. Is that boost really necessary these days, at least for combined arms Terminator squads?

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I think it really depends on the unit. Assault Terminators are almost always better served by taking the TH/SS combo - what usually targets them ignores their +2 armour, and it also allows them to maul other +2 armour or monstrous creature-equivalent units. However, a Phase Shifter isn't really all that useful on a Necron Lord - that many points for a +3 invulnerable save that you will rarely use. Mind you too, a Warscythe Lord really doesn't need it either - he will usually kill a sergeant/character before they hit him back with a power fist anyway.

They aren't as necessary, but it is good to have some kind of save for a character. The sigil of corruption I find to be well worth it on my Sorcerer Lords.

I take Warding Staves on practically everything now, thanks to Challenges.

I believe the inv saves necessity/effectiveness has a lot to do with what your unit/HQs is going to be doing. If your going to be assaulting its negligible if you have a 2+, some see it as a must have, others try to spend the points else where. For shooty i see it as an important upgrade, as being shot at all game and being able to fend off cc units.
fortunatly I play vanilla most of the time so its either they have it or they don't. But storm shields as an upgrade are way to expensive for 1 wound models.

I'm gonna be trying to use legion of the damned soon for that save and being able to weather heavy duty fire.

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Originally Posted by Mr Mystery

How do!

More rambling a from the festering pit of nonsense that is my mind I'm afraid!

In 6th Edition, I've started to see invulnerable saves fall slightly by the way side. Given the change to Power Weapons, and the advent of Look Out Sir! I've been finding it harder and harder to justify the points value of the Phase Shifter. In 5th, I loaded up on both those and Sempiternal Weaves. Now due to the two reasons above I find the 2+ save to be plenty good enough. Granted my heavy hitters have a glorious T5 which helps in HTH, but seeing as only Powerfists and Axes can ignore my save in fisticuffs, I am confident just dropping my Overlord into a bodyguard of Warscythe toting Lychguard.

But I'm digressing and getting too specific in terms of my army of choice.

To those others with access to a 2+ save, do you find this is enough, or do you feel my approach is just asking for a nasty old fisting/axing?

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Those Fistings hurt man...........The axing not so much =/ I like my extra save even for the points it adds.

TH/SS terminators are unequivocally dealt with via mass shooting where I play. The use of ap2 just to drop to a 3++ isn't really worth it in our circles. We tend to use ap2 weapons for things that wouldn't just survive it anyways, like other terminators, sanguine guard, and that type of stuff

Sadly the only thing that really counts in this edition is massive firepower, i.e. the more DAKKA you have the better. While it is nice to force a invulnerable save rather than an armor save, the proliferation of Storm Shields (for some) has made it often better to just use target saturation. The cost of cheap shooters versus expensive Terminators coupled with the problems of assault in this edition always leads you back to just MORE shooting. So far as I can tell, Games Workshop defines "cinematic" as two opposing gun lines shooting each other for 2-3 hours until someone finally breaks. I know that sounds pessimistic but the more games played the more lists are evolving in that direction. I'm speaking of my own games and the games I observe others play. People use what works and slowly but surely discard that which doesn't.

Going back to the topic at hand:

1. Improving the invulnerable save of an HQ or Special Character is pointless if you have them in a big, sturdy unit. The "Look Out Sir" is far better than what you can buy. Surround your important guys with enough meat shields and you are fine against shooting. The only reason you would want to upgrade your Invulnerable save is if you plan on being in a lot of challenges or run in small units (or alone). Given that MOST people will evolve toward commanders sitting way back and commanding their big blobs of shooter and bringing shooting support, is doubt such people care much about their invulnerable save.

2. Upgrade the Invulnerable save on units (if you can do it) is also a tough call based on price. It isn't nearly so clear cut. There is ample firepower out there that goes STRAIGHT to the Invulnerable save so it can't hurt. However, I still think the vast majority of DAKKA which comes down like RAIN in this edition is going to tell the tale. Who cares if you have a 2+/3+ when the unit will be absorb over a 100 shots.

Terminators were a problem for me last Edition too because I could not fight them in close combat. I was already shooting them to death. Very little has changed for me except that I can put even MORE shots out now and get the added advantage of Overwatch and Biomancy/Slannesh Disciplines to make sure more of those shots wound. Think about it.