Poisoned attacks

Now I just recently got my Tyranid codex, and I was thumbing through it when I noticed that Carnifexes can take Toxin Sacs, which confer the "poisoned (4+)" rule on their CC attacks. Now perhaps I am being dense here, but Carnifexes have Str 9, which means that against just about everything in the game, they will wound on 2+, so wouldn't taking toxin sacs be paying to nerf the 'fex?

If the poisoned rule said that they wound on X+ unless the comparison of strength and toughness would be better, then I could (maybe) see taking them (particularly with the additional component of poisoned allowing you to re-roll failed wounds if your Str is greater than the target's toughness). But otherwise how on earth is this a viable option?

Also, if one happened to have a 'fex with toxin sacs already, do you think WYSIWYG would demand that it be given the upgrade? :D

It's a downgrade unless you're fighting T8 and up, in which case it's an upgrade. Not one you'd want to take very often, admittedly, but not useless in 100% of cases.

If the to wound role is better than the poisoned attack the better one applies. Also under the rule for poisoned attacks states that is the toughness is equal or less you get to re-roll failed rolls to wound.

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Originally Posted by kdetro

If the to wound role is better than the poisoned attack the better one applies.

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While a perfectly sensible way to play, that's not actually true. Do you have a rules quote to back that up?

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Originally Posted by kdetro

Also under the rule for poisoned attacks states that is the toughness is equal or less you get to re-roll failed rolls to wound.

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That is true, which is why a carnifex with toxin sacs has better odds of wounding a T8 or T9 model than a carnifex without (and of course against T10 models, wounding on a 4+ because of poison is better than wounding on a 5+ because of Strength-Toughness comparisons).

Are there any 40k models with a toughness higher than 8? I think the highest in non-apocalypse 40k is T8 (the Necron C'tan).

Hierophants are T9 I think, and probably some other Apoc models as well.

Toxin Sacs on a Carnifex is probably one of the more useless upgrades in the game, just ahead of all the wargear that doesn't function at all anymore ;)

While on the one hand I agree with you, Lerra, on the other hand I think it's nice that they've included upgrades in the codex that can allow carnifexes to take on the biggest, nastiest stuff in the game.

The rule in the rulebook for poisoned weapons, pg. 42, says that if the strength of the wielder is equal to or higher than the toughness of the target, the attacker must re-roll all failed to wound rolls.

My guess is that the poison sacks on a carnifex makes it re-roll failed to-wound rolls.

Hmm adrenal glands are better I guess, cus on the charge u are strength 10, and I4

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Originally Posted by Commissar Lewis

The rule in the rulebook for poisoned weapons, pg. 42, says that if the strength of the wielder is equal to or higher than the toughness of the target, the attacker must re-roll all failed to wound rolls.

My guess is that the poison sacks on a carnifex makes it re-roll failed to-wound rolls.

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The strength of the carnifex is only taken into account with regards to that re-roll. Other than that is becomes redundant. It will wound on a 4+, no greater, no less.

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Originally Posted by Just_Me

If the poisoned rule said that they wound on X+ unless the comparison of strength and toughness would be better, then I could (maybe) see taking them (particularly with the additional component of poisoned allowing you to re-roll failed wounds if your Str is greater than the target's toughness). But otherwise how on earth is this a viable option?

Also, if one happened to have a 'fex with toxin sacs already, do you think WYSIWYG would demand that it be given the upgrade? :D

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I totally agree that a comparative rule should be used but unfortunately it's not. It's a pointless upgrade for a monstrous creature.

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Originally Posted by david5th

I totally agree that a comparative rule should be used but unfortunately it's not. It's a pointless upgrade for a monstrous creature.

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That's not entirely true. If you are using your monstrous creature solely to hunt other monstrous creatures then toxin sacs make everything that is S6 better. However, the carnifex only gets a boost against T8 in the normal game, so yeah, its a downgrade.

Oh, toxin sacs also make S6 MC's better against bikes, aside from eldar bikes, of course.

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Originally Posted by david5th

I totally agree that a comparative rule should be used but unfortunately it's not. It's a pointless upgrade for a monstrous creature.

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Originally Posted by kdetro

If the to wound role is better than the poisoned attack the better one applies. Also under the rule for poisoned attacks states that is the toughness is equal or less you get to re-roll failed rolls to wound.

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

While a perfectly sensible way to play, that's not actually true. Do you have a rules quote to back that up?

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See, that's my thinking, it makes so much more sense if poisoned only comes into effect if the roll would otherwise be worse. From a logical perspective it makes more sense; think of it this way, suppose I'm a Carnifex (rawr!) and I have the strength to smash through steel like it was cardboard, life is pretty good... Now the hive-mind (in it's wisdom) decides to reconstitute me with poison sacs, I STILL HAVE THE STRENGTH TO TEAR THROUGH STEEL, now it just so happens I am also poisonous, when I hit it will still be just as strong as ever, but it will also poison them.

Unfortunately, as Nabterayl points out, that isn't how the rules work, and I even looked in the errata to see if this had been addressed, to no avail...

See, the poisoned carnifexes have to restrain themselves, because if you just chop a man in half with your mighty claws then the poison doesn't really get into his bloodstream. You have to delicately prick him with your poisoned talons, so you don't ... um ... yeah ...

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

See, the poisoned carnifexes have to restrain themselves, because if you just chop a man in half with your mighty claws then the poison doesn't really get into his bloodstream. You have to delicately prick him with your poisoned talons, so you don't ... um ... yeah ...

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Makes perfect sense, "don't waste what the Hive Mind provides!"

Y'know what would make more sense, is if poision was just a straight up reroll to wound, rather than wound on a 4+. Then we'd have Carnifexes rerolling a 2+ to wound.

Then they should probably throw on a "always wound on at least a 6+ or something".

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

See, the poisoned carnifexes have to restrain themselves, because if you just chop a man in half with your mighty claws then the poison doesn't really get into his bloodstream. You have to delicately prick him with your poisoned talons, so you don't ... um ... yeah ...

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HA! I second the "wha-huh? It doesn't?" theme I'm sensing. RAW wins, unfortunately, barring a gold mine type rules quote.

That is pretty silly. It most definitely is how the rules are written though.

The answer is pretty obvious: don't take Toxin Sacs on your Carnifex, you silly.

The crappy 4+ wound is to make up for a single Gaunt being able to nibble a C'tan to death.

"I AM THE MIGHTY STAR-GOD, BOUND WITHIN THIS SHEATH OF LIVING METAL!"

"om nom nom"

"HEY! STOP THAT! OW! OW!! HOW DOES THIS EVEN WORK, SERIOUSLY?"

Exactly, if you do the math, toxin sacs are a great option for anything in the codex below strength 5; 4+ is better than the 5+, or 6+ of S4 v T>4 (and would allow you to wound anything in the game), and the same as S4 v T4, while 4+ with a reroll is actually better than a straight 3+ (unless my probability calculations are off, which is admittedly possible).

I don't think there's an actual rule on this, but can't it be fair to say that the Carnifex chooses not to use the poison this time? Just like a Space Marine knowing he'll die before he can get his power fist attacks so he does his normal ones at his initiative?

You can't choose not to use your powerfist anymore in 5e, so that's not really a good analogy.

Like you said, there isn't a rule for it, but it's not a super unreasonable thing to do. I know that if somebody paid for toxin sacs on their carnifex I would let them choose between the Poisoned attacks and the regular attacks. But if somebody asked me what the rule was, I'd tell them that the rule is that they have to use their Poisoned attacks all the time.

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

You can't choose not to use your powerfist anymore in 5e, so that's not really a good analogy.

Like you said, there isn't a rule for it, but it's not a super unreasonable thing to do. I know that if somebody paid for toxin sacs on their carnifex I would let them choose between the Poisoned attacks and the regular attacks. But if somebody asked me what the rule was, I'd tell them that the rule is that they have to use their Poisoned attacks all the time.

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Whoops, hadn't noticed that. But looking at the poisoned rule, since the Carnifex's strength is probably going to be higher opponents toughness he'll be able to re-roll to wound. So...he's got that going for him.

True, which certainly mitigates the level of downgrade. But a re-rollable 4+ wounds 75% of the time. Wounding on a 2+ wounds 83% of the time. That's why I said that toxin sacs are (going by RAW) a downgrade for a carnifex unless you're attacking T8 or better. A re-rollable 4+ is better than wounding on a 3+. It is not better than wounding on a 2+.

This is why Toxin Sacs on Hormagaunts are awesome and Toxin Sacs on Carnifexes (and, for the most part Hive Tyrants) are useless. As for those of you that have modeled Toxin Sacs on Carnifexes, I don't believe you are required to purchase it, but must have it modeled if you do purchase it.

now this makes the debate about tyranid close combat biomorphs interesting again!

why? because now there is an actual up side to seeing them as special weapons. namely that a hive tyrant/carnifex can choose if he uses his poisoned weapon or his other (bonesword, scyting talons) weapon.

reroll 4+ against other monsters and squish infantry still on 2+ ^^.



on the matter itself I think the codex writer did not know the fine parts of the poison rules. otherwise our mosnters would have poison 2+ (like the nurgle monstrous creatures!).


I'm wondering if GW alltogether know what they have written or if it was a mistake? cause only useing the poison value if you were worse otherwise and rerolling your normal s/t roll if your strenght is enough to reach the poison value would be more sane.

Except it doesn't as Toxin Sacs are not weapons of any sort. It's a "Biomorph Upgrade" i.e. wargear, thus would apply regardless of other weapons. So it doesn't matter how the Tyranid CC Weapon debate is ruled in the end, attacks are still poisoned.