Dark Angels Fallen

Hey guys,

Something I've been wondering for a long time: what is the big deal about the Fallen? I haven't read the Heresy novels concerning the Dark Angels (hence why I'm asking this question), but from what I understand it sounds an awful lot like the Dark Angels are terrified that somebody might find out that, once upon a time, some Dark Angels fell to Chaos. Unlike, you know, EVERY OTHER LEGION EVER.

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Are the Dark Angels really planning to spend an unforeseeable amount of time hunting an unknown number of traitors whose fate, not to mention whereabouts, are unknown, because they can't stand the thought that somebody might find out that such traitors existed once upon a time, and might still exist? Do the Dark Angels even have a reputation of not having any renegades on their rolls?

Or ... is there something else going on? I mean, I can accept (and love) space marines being insufferably self-absorbed pricks, I just want to leverage others' reading.

That's prettymuch it, though there is a bunch of guilt and repentance thrown in there - they want to find them to bring them to justice to atone for their sins so the Emperor will forgive them (which may or may not be what Cypher is up to). Not all the fallen are evil chaos worshipers either, as they were cast through space and time, so some when found are repentant and recieve a quick death when they realise what they did by turning on their brothers.

I think though that rather than just the fall to chaos it's more that they fell during the heresy, and fell en masse. Whilst some of the traitor legions had guys who stayed good, none of the other loyalist legions had guys turn bad at that time (that we know of at the moment). The betrayal was also less about fighting against the Emperor and more fighting against the part of the legion who abandoned the fallen on Caliban.

Do the Dark Angels have any lore about not having any subsequent renegades?

The issue with the Fallen is that the "Loyalist" DAs might not actually be as loyal as the Imperium believes. To fully understand the issue though, reading the older fluff helps, especially Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe (see link below).

The Horus Heresy series has also helps by explaining that the Imperium's goals are very different now than they were during the Crusades. For example, worshipping the Emperor then was forbidden whereas now it is forbidden.

[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Darkness-Warhammer-40-000/dp/0743443497"]http://www.amazon.com/Angels-Darkness-Warhammer-40-000/dp/0743443497[/URL]

I ... don't think I understand. It's not as if the Inner Circle seriously fears the Fallen approaching the Imperium and saying, "Little did you suspect that for the past ten thousand years the Dark Angels have secretly ..."

I don't even know how to finish that sentence. Secretly been working against the Imperium? The Dark Angels act like insufferable pricks, but no moreso than any other marine chapter. Put their own needs above that of the Imperium? Well of course; they're space marines. Secretly attacked Caliban, rather than the other way around? Why should anybody other than Dark Angels care about that?

EDIT: Let me take a step back and ask a broader question: do the Dark Angels care about their "secret" getting out? Or is the current lore that they view this as an internal matter?

Actually the DA do act more insufferably prickish than most other Marine chapters. Certainly more so than Sallyminders and Ultramorons. There's some more prickish out there, like Minotaurs and Black Templars, but DA are the worst of the first founding when it comes to relations with the Imperium at large.

The reasons the DA _currently_ care are because it's chapter tradition. Full stop. However, in M31 and M32, they cared precisely because they were the only loyalist legion (not chapter) to undergo a full split. That's the simplest view I think, although I accept that may become more fluffed at some point.

The symmetries between Dark Angels(First Legion) and Alpha Legion (Last Legion) are all over the place if you take some viewpoints. If the Lion was actually being disloyal during the Heresy by waiting to see who one whilst Alpha was actually being loyalist but playing double agent, then there's more to the symmetry than just first vs. last and general secretiveness.

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Originally Posted by inquisitorsog

Actually the DA do act more insufferably prickish than most other Marine chapters. Certainly more so than Sallyminders and Ultramorons. There's some more prickish out there, like Minotaurs and Black Templars, but DA are the worst of the first founding when it comes to relations with the Imperium at large.

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I'm not sure I buy that, except that they're the worst of the First Founding chapters. What do they do other than turn down requests for help for their own self-important reasons, show up places where the Imperium might have other strategic concerns without prior notice or coordination with other Imperial forces that may be present, plan and execute their own missions without regard to how that might screw up the plans of other Imperial forces or without regard to whether the other forces present need their assistance, and then leave?

I mean ... that may not be all marine chapters, but as I understand it, it's the standard.

So what I'm hearing at this point is that they care because they once cared, but it's not as if they're living in fear that somebody will find out that they have renegades in the closet and ... I dunno, not invite them to the next cocktail party. That about (flippantly) accurate?

The basic idea is that the loyalist legions stayed true to the Emperor 100%. To a man (Astartes) they were loyal and unflinching in the face of Heresy. Whether this is entirely true or not doesn't matter.

The Dark Angels are an anomaly in that some of them turned against their Primarch and the Emperor. This means that the inquisition, were they to find out, would probably see the geneseed of the DA as tainted and would be likely to order exterminatus on them. To add to this the DA themselves might partially believe that they are tainted or impure in some way and are trying to repent in the way that they always have, by removing the fallen from history.

They are willing to carry this out at all costs as evidenced by the fluff in the BT codex where an entire (albeit small) crusade was destroyed because they had found one of the fallen before the DA.

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Originally Posted by Zeshin

The Dark Angels are an anomaly in that some of them turned against their Primarch and the Emperor. This means that the inquisition, were they to find out, would probably see the geneseed of the DA as tainted and would be likely to order exterminatus on them.

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I don't have my codex (or novels, etc.) handy. Can you provide a cite for that? I don't think I've heard before that there's some notion running around that old traitors taint your geneseed more than new traitors. I can buy that such an obviously stupid notion might have currency, but I'd love to know where in our sources it's found.

While the treachery of the Fallen may have happened 10,000 years ago, keeping it a secret from the Inquisition for 10,000 years is a pretty big crime on its own. And that is a crime they still commit, unrepentantly, en masse.

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

I don't think I've heard before that there's some notion running around that old traitors taint your geneseed more than new traitors.

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Who suggested this?

... You did? Every legion has spawned traitors in the millennia since the Heresy. Why should anybody think that the Inquisition will care more about the Dark Angels' old traitors than its new traitors?

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

... You did? Every legion has spawned traitors in the millennia since the Heresy. Why should anybody think that the Inquisition will care more about the Dark Angels' old traitors than its new traitors?

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I feel like I'm getting trolled here... but...

No, I didn't. I said that keeping the Fallen a secret for 10,000 years is a crime on its own.

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Originally Posted by inquisitorsog

Actually the DA do act more insufferably prickish than most other Marine chapters. Certainly more so than Sallyminders and Ultramorons. There's some more prickish out there, like Minotaurs and Black Templars, but DA are the worst of the first founding when it comes to relations with the Imperium at large.

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No one ever remembers the Iron Hands and their incredible pouting. Seriously, 10 thousand years and still sulking in their rooms. It's like they're the chapter whose parents are getting divorced or alienated from dad. So brooding.

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Originally Posted by zenjah

I feel like I'm getting trolled here... but...

No, I didn't.

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Sorry, was working off my phone and I got you confused with Zeshin, who said:

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Originally Posted by Zeshin

The Dark Angels are an anomaly in that some of them turned against their Primarch and the Emperor. This means that the inquisition, were they to find out, would probably see the geneseed of the DA as tainted and would be likely to order exterminatus on them.

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I can buy that the Dark Angels would see it that way, though it seems unlikely to me. There have, presumably, been tens if not hundreds of thousands of Ultramarines descendants who have turned renegade, and nobody's calling their geneseed tainted. But regardless, it was Zeshin who made the suggestion that the idea is out there, not you.

Comes to that, what's our authority for the idea that the Inquisition wouldn't just say, "You had an unknown number of legionnaires turn traitor ten thousand years ago, there's an unknown number of them still at large, you didn't tell anybody, and we care ... why?"

I mean, we don't think that other chapters report their renegades to the Inquisition on a regular basis, do we?

The story of Ophidium Gulf Crusade will also shed some light on how far the Dark Angels are willing to go in order to protect their secret.

I love these threads.

Another thing about the DA is that the newbies aren't told about the Fallen. Page 11 in the dex on the bottom of the first column talks about how the Inner Circle keeps newbies ignorant of past events, and that until a Newbie joins the 1st company (Deathwing) he wouldn't learn the histories. Now it seems to me that means any DA that's in a tact squad doesn't know about the Fallen. I don't know if even the Ravenwing would know about them. All Company Masters are former Deathwing so they would know the history. Librarians and Interrogator Chaplains are also in the know, while tech marines will never know because of their loyalty to the Mechanicus of Mars.

I thought the primary task of the Ravenwing was hunting the fallen?

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Originally Posted by Nabterayl

I don't have my codex (or novels, etc.) handy. Can you provide a cite for that? I don't think I've heard before that there's some notion running around that old traitors taint your geneseed more than new traitors. I can buy that such an obviously stupid notion might have currency, but I'd love to know where in our sources it's found.

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It's not old traitors versus new traitors. Traitors in general bring the purity of the geneseed into question. This is a general theme in many of the BL novels which I know are considered less than canon but the idea that a space marine could turn against the emperor would engender fear and unrest in the populace of the 41st millennium and would therefore need to be stamped out by the inquisition.

Edit: missed half a page, added quote for clarity.

Edit the second: And I suppose it's more that they had traitors and lied, killed and kept secret their actions. The cover up is as much heresy as the original fall. They're damned if the do and damned if they don't at this point.

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Originally Posted by Psychosplodge

I thought the primary task of the Ravenwing was hunting the fallen?

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The codex states that the Ravenwing are at the front of the hunt for the Fallen, but it doesn't say they know why. Sammael, Master of the Ravenwing is a senior member of the Inner Circle, so he is certainly in the know, but I'm not sure about the individual members of the squad.

Yes the Dark Angels are going out of their way to protect their secret. The Ophidian Gulf Crusade is notable but we must add the fact that they are massing Successor Chapters on the Rock who unquestioningly follow the commands of Azrael (tacit re-legionisation;- which is bound to annoy the Inquisition and the Ultramarines) On top of that they reallly offended Ursarker Creed and the Cadian High Command during the 13th Black Crusade.

On the question of why it matters to the Dark Angels my take is that they take great pride in being "The First." It s what makes them special and puts them above the "glories" of the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. The continued existence of the Fallen is a constant reminder that they fell short of the glories of their rival Legions, and whilst any Fallen exists the stain of traitor remains. Keeping it from 80% of the Dark Angels does make them self important dicks but at least their form of dickery differs from that of say the Ultramarines "we're the Marines everybody else wishes they could be" or the Space Wolves "we will go out of our way to be different just because . . " or the sulking Iron Hands.

They cannot admit it to outsiders as it would be to admit treason (and probably have either the GKs or the Space Wolves come calling) they don't think the Fallen will because both sides will wish to keep it in house

The real question is, since we know some of the White Scars turned traitor during the Heresy and even killed a custodian and there were no repercussions to the Khan, what made the DA think they would be treated differently

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Originally Posted by Absolon

The real question is, since we know some of the White Scars turned traitor during the Heresy and even killed a custodian and there were no repercussions to the Khan, what made the DA think they would be treated differently

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?
I'm assuming the limited white scars book?

I dunno, I'm with Absolon. "You mean your geneseed has spawned traitor space marines who are still at large and even now conspire with the Ruinous Powers? Oh my Terra, it's not like THAT hasn't happened before."

I mean forget the White Scars. Name a legion whose geneseed hasn't spawned traitors, and much more recently than the Dark Angels. Yeah, it's an indelible stain on the chapter's honor. Yeah, it undoubtedly makes the Inquisition ask pointed questions. And then life goes on.

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Originally Posted by Absolon

The real question is, since we know some of the White Scars turned traitor during the Heresy and even killed a custodian and there were no repercussions to the Khan, what made the DA think they would be treated differently

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The Dark Angels have a genetic pre-disposition to secrecy and paranoia?

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Originally Posted by Psychosplodge

?
I'm assuming the limited white scars book?

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It's in Garro Sword of Truth

audio book?

Most of the Dark Angels do it to redeem what they see as a failing of their legion, that some of the very first (and thus in their opinion amazing) space marines left the light of the Emperor is a massive dishonour of heritage for them, and as we know, many Spehss Mahrens are obsessed with heritage.

The origin of it, of course, is that the Lion split his legion so that if it looked like Horus was going to win, the half that ended up as the 'Fallen' could come in as reserves to bolster Horus's forces. If the Emperor won, he could say that they were traitors not doing as he told them. The Emperor won, so the 'Fallen' who were actually just doing as they were told by the Lion, were declared traitors because the Lion was an opportunistic ******* who wanted to be in power. That's why some of the Fallen did actually end up going chaos, because their father screwed them over, whereas some of them thought that although their father was a dick, the Imperium was still worth fighting for, so didn't turn to chaos. Some of them hate the Imperium but still don't turn to chaos because they see both as bad as each other.

TL;DR The 'Fallen' were the Lion's scapegoat in case Horus's plans went awry, which they did, so he declared them traitors and thus some of them actually did fall to chaos because they were betrayed.