Background Wishlist.

fair point Erik, you aren't wrong - it has plenty of holes, but I htink that's more cos it's a "new world" and backround, hopefully they will iron out details and retcon/change things over time to improve it, sort of like how rogue trader developed into the 40k world we have today. Personally though I find that something to look forward to/interest me, but I can see where your coming from. Speaking personally, developing my own fictional universe has taken a lot of work over the past 5 years and I still find things I want to change or people point out various things that don't make sense I may of missed, allthough the GW team is a lot larger than just me.

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Originally Posted by Erik Setzer

Eh... On my end, the more I read of Star Wars background, the more it makes sense, whereas with AoS, the more I read, the more I feel they didn't have a coherent plan in place and are some day going to wake up with the realization there's a lot they'll have to retcon because they're already being contradictory.

Part of the problem with including the events of the "world-that-was" is that it brings up more questions. Like if these guys remember what was done to them, why don't they remember what they're called? How did all of these races get recreated exactly as they are, but can't remember who they are? Why are all these heroes alive again and seemingly immortal? Why did Archaon's motivations shift? How the heck do you bring a daemon back after it was destroyed to summon another daemon?

The naming thing just comes off as more ridiculous the more they try to tie in the old fluff (and it was just stupid to start with... there is no other word for it, it was a fit of stupidity by a group of morons wanting to trademark names for fantasy tropes because they seem to like paying lawyers). And the whole deal with bringing back all the dead people? Suddenly all the sacrifices were meaningless. The emotional impact of those deaths is negated. They meant nothing. And after the Skaven advanced quite a good bit in a short period of time, they've been stuck with absolutely no technological advancements for thousands of years, with the Stormfiends still being the pinnacle? There's nothing to explain these problems, because there was no central plan.

Sure, they have all these stories for the Golden Armor Brigade, but for those of us who find an army of people who all look the same and are meant to be Fantasy Space Marines to be boring, that's not helping that the rest of the fluff is largely a mess, and they're not showing the slightest concern in fixing it (probably because they don't think it's worth the money or time invested).

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Horses for courses old boy. I feel that Star Wars suffers from the no central plan and it continuity is poor doesn't stop it being good fun. We've only really heard the Stormcast and Chaos stories so far it's no suprise there's questions pending although having read the End Times stuff it's fairly obvious how Tyrion et al "survived". As to the names well language changes over time The English spoken by my ancestors was very different to what we speak today I don't see a problem also Archaon is still after the same thing.

Still you don't have to like it I find it a great tale but if you don't that's fine.

The messed up continuity actually made me not enjoy some things in the old Star Wars EU as much as I might have, like what KOTOR and SWTOR did to the universe shown in Tales of the Jedi, or the mess made of things with Dark Empire, which was kind of fun, but when you try to think about it in the general story line, it makes no sense and is impossible to fit in there. Coruscant gets lost by the New Republic just a couple of years after they take it in the first place? And then there's the fact that the Lusankya shows up in a comic set just a year later, meaning the NR had the resources to completely rebuild a Super Star Destroyer (and it was only maybe 3-4 years after it got practically destroyed). In the Dark Empire comics, the NR is a Rebel Alliance again on the run with barely any fleet and only two ISDs, but in the stories that ended up placed before that, they put together a good sized fleet and had multiple ISDs, not just two they captured at Endor. That's just one example of where things get mind-bogglingly out of shape, and it became a necessity that the storyline be blown up and started over.

Yeah, it's not just a GW thing with me, I prefer a cohesive story with anything.

Age of Sigmar's problem isn't just that it's new. It's that they wanted to completely replace the existing setting and change names and stuff, but didn't have a plan in place to explain it. A lot of it feels like they rushed things at the last minute, and by now I'm really convinced that's what they did. I don't think they're really that concerned with a coherent story, the story is just something for people to maybe read when they aren't longingly looking at their Citadel Miniatures Collection on their shelves. Then to get more money quicker, they throw out as many stories as they can and rush out a bunch of books (battle tomes and such) that add more to the mess without really being checked against each other. They dare not slow down, in case interest wanes...

They could have done it so much better. As it is, they're going to hit a point, in the not-too-distant future, where they'll be forced to do a large-scale retcon to make sense of things. It'd be preferable if they'd just stop until they sorted out the story, even if it means they already retcon a large chunk of it to present a better groundwork.

And no, the End Times don't give room for guys "surviving." They get literally erased from existence. Their return isn't explained anywhere, nor is Malekith forgetting his own name (which yeah, is just because Marvel has a leader of the Dark Elves named Malekith... I feel bad for Tyrion when they get around to watching/reading Game of Thrones). The only possible explanations are that someone was so insanely powerful they could bring them back into existence (at which point you're left wondering why this insanely powerful being isn't helping to fight Chaos), or this is all a fever dream Sigmar is having as he floats through the void trying desperately to believe he didn't really just watch the whole world get destroyed because he failed. (Actually, the dream thing makes sense, because Sigmar somehow increased his power by a massive amount.)

Short answer they weren't killed they were sucked into a wrap rift whilst the incarnates of various winds magic. Their spirits became trapped In their respective winds just as Sigmar did before Ayzr became bound to Karl Franz and Sigmar came back after he died during the siege of Altdorf. That's how they became immortal and "survived". It's all there. There can be a longer answer but I don't have the time or inclination. Re read or just read the End Times it's all there odds on favourite this is what happened.

Oh I'm not taking about the EU the films don't really add up.

With the Seraphon the name change is easy to explain: "Lizardmen" was always a derogatory term applied to them by humans. It's easy to say that 'seraphon' is simply the best transcription of their native word for "servants of the old gods".

One could argue that Duarden (is that correct?) is similar for the Dwarves, or a word in their tongue that means something appropriate for the ones currently using it.

I doubt Malekith completely forgot his name. Much more likely that he took up a new one to symbolise his new path, having effectively been proven right all along about the Phoenix Throne. He'd hardly be the first elf to do so either.

Very good point Morgrim.

There's a fair precedent for that sort of thing in real life too. Its not that a far out thing to occur.

Also agreed with Morgrim's post there. I actually like Seraphon and Duradin more than "lizardmen" and "dwarfs" personally. That said Aelves is pretty uninspired/boring though...

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Originally Posted by grimmas

Short answer they weren't killed they were sucked into a wrap rift whilst the incarnates of various winds magic. Their spirits became trapped In their respective winds just as Sigmar did before Ayzr became bound to Karl Franz and Sigmar came back after he died during the siege of Altdorf. That's how they became immortal and "survived". It's all there. There can be a longer answer but I don't have the time or inclination. Re read or just read the End Times it's all there odds on favourite this is what happened.

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I read the End Times. It's pretty clear on what happened. They didn't get sucked into somewhere to be saved. They got completely obliterated. Now they come back as gods.

It's also insulting if you claim they were that powerful but couldn't stop Chaos destroying the Warhammer world, but were powerful enough to avoid being destroyed and come back as gods, but don't even have to work at it, because Chaos won't ever complete its victory now. They established things in End Times that they managed to completely contradict right out of the gates in Age of Sigmar.

I was excited for End Times. I wanted to see where Warhammer Fantasy Battles was going to go next. I know the End Times fluff. That's why I'm pissed off they brought people back. If they didn't want to deal with not being able to sell their expensive character models, they shouldn't have made them, or they should have held off and called them something else.

You need to reread or just read End Times yourself. Malekith's very essence is stripped away while he's being wiped out. It's all played up to suggest noble sacrifices fighting for an impossible goal, and now all of that means nothing. The whole story is cheapened because their deaths got retconned immediately.

It would make more sense to suggest the Old Ones decided to create new versions using "backups" they'd created, which were corrupted in some cases (hence Teclis is blind and Malekith merged his name with his dragon's). That would fit the narrative. But they didn't put thought into it. They got lazy.

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Originally Posted by Morgrim

With the Seraphon the name change is easy to explain: "Lizardmen" was always a derogatory term applied to them by humans. It's easy to say that 'seraphon' is simply the best transcription of their native word for "servants of the old gods".

One could argue that Duarden (is that correct?) is similar for the Dwarves, or a word in their tongue that means something appropriate for the ones currently using it.

I doubt Malekith completely forgot his name. Much more likely that he took up a new one to symbolise his new path, having effectively been proven right all along about the Phoenix Throne. He'd hardly be the first elf to do so either.

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Except:

1. Seraphon was the name of Malekith's black dragon. I doubt it would be the "true name" of the Lizardmen. They never had a name for themselves as a group because they didn't need it. The Slann were the Slann, all others were their slaves, their pet creations - Saurus, Skinks, etc. - that didn't merit a name as a whole. They only had a name because the people around them had to call them that.

2. Okay, you've explained those, but now what about Orruks, Troggoths, Gargants, Grots, etc.? Why did EVERYTHING change?

3. Well, since Malekith forgot who he even was as all memory of him was wiped from existence right before he physically was destroyed, one could understand him doing that. But if he was going to make some new name for his "new path," then why not other characters? Especially as the whole Phoenix King thing effectively doesn't matter, especially as the Elves (renamed Aelves because someone accidentally slipped an extra letter on there) are all eaten by Slaanesh and have been digesting in its stomach longer than the Sarlacc's victims are said to suffer (a few thousand years, I believe it's been). Even if he suddenly remembered all of that, why would it matter any more? There is no Phoenix King. The title means nothing. Their gods are gone, their home is gone, their world is gone, their people are currently gone.

The real answer is trademarks... And Malekith was too close to Marvel's Dark Elf leader Malekith. It's utterly stupid, but hey, that's what happens when a game company trades in its soul for attempts to make maximum short-term profit for a Board and shareholders.

Digging out my copy of ET: Archaon to remind people who forgot, a few choice passages from the end of the book:

"'Where would we go?' Tyrion replied grimly. 'This is the Rhana Dandra, the end of all things. There is no outrunning it.'"
"Alarielle turned back to gaze down at Malekith, a sudden strength back in her voice. 'It is not yours to wield. Our chance was lost, and our time is over.'"
...and a big one...
"The air was both scalding hot and freezing cold at the same time. Malekith could feel daemonic voices inside his skull, gnawing at what little remained of his sanity. Then the edge of the rift swept over him also, and with it a deep and impenetrable darkness.
"Malevolent laughter echoed about Malekith. Memories from the past danced before his eyes like phantoms: recollections of a father's coldness, and a mother's cruel love. In an instant, Malekith relived every betrayal, every malicious deed, and every failure.
"Suddenly, the memories were gone, cut away as if by a knight. The creature that had once been Malekith felt a moment of panic, for he found that he could not even recall his own name."

And the description of said rift's effects on the world:

"And so the mortal world fell away into oblivioun.
"The gnawing rift at the heart of mankind's domain devoured reality.
"...
"The Oak of Ages was swallowed last of all. Mournful dryad-song echoed under livid skies as Athel Loren perished. With its destruction, the Weave that bound time and space together thinned and stretched. Twisted by unnatural energies, it dissolved entirely into nothingness."

So there you have it. The rift wasn't some magical device spiriting them off to safety. It was a thing of pure destructive Chaos force, wiping out reality itself. (And if Malekith did survive, well, I suppose he *did* forget his own name there, so there's that.)

But we're not just talking the return of the Incarnates, nope. We've seen Thanquol still stomping around after thousands of years, which is pretty much impossible for a Skaven. We see the Mortarchs back in their exact same form. And it's selective, too. Grimgor was an incarnate, but instead of him, we get the "We can't remember what we said they were" Gorkamorka mess. Ungrim's nowhere around, but Grungni and Grimnir are suddenly back, and seem to be rolling with the fire aspect that Ungrim had used until he died. So that's some gods showing up, despite being destroyed, whereas other gods aren't showing up. Some Incarnates, some not. Some people showing up who are mortal now being immortal, some characters who can't exist are back around. And there's no explanation for it. (Nor is there any explanation on why Tyrion is a god but needs to see through Teclis, or where Malerion comes from, or if he's even Malekith, or why Tyrion heads off with Malerion but not Teclis despite needing Teclis to be able to see. Bonus points for the elves remembering the world before, and setting off to try to get revenge for it, despite not having a clear idea of what the heck's going on.)

Then there's the weird way they seem to portray characters different between books... In the first AoS book, Alarielle is clearly the old Everqueen who's still upset about what happened to the world. But then in The Quest for Ghal-Maraz, it says "Alarielle has existed in one form or another for aeons." So it's been aeons since the world died? Or are they changing her background on the fly?

And wait, why *is* Ghal-Maraz holding so much of Sigmar's power that he can't win a fight without it? And if it's that much of his power, why did he hand it to someone else? Can they explain why the heck his old Dwarf-made hammer is back (even if he survived, being some kind of ancient God from the Machine, that doesn't explain a basic magic weapon surviving), or why it's so much of his power? Did he decide to create some new facsimile of his old hammer and transfer a large portion of his power into it just because... um... reasons? The McGuffin Hammer just makes no sense, and yet there's a whole book about getting it back.

My ultimate wish is that they just stop writing, and take however long they need - six months, a year, two years - to make the story cohesive, figure out what exactly they want AoS to be, and then retcon what's been written and make a better story.

Not gonna happen, but these are wishes, not predictions.

The rift didn't spirit then off to safety you're being obstuse I didn't say that did I? Their link to the Wind of magic saved them (not necessarily completely).

The rift didn't destroy everything did it? It never did its right there in the End Time you can try to manipulate quotes to justify what you want but it's right there. But notice you can't find one that says Malkieth died because it doesn't, it says he (like Tyrion ,Nagash and others) were engulfed by the rift. They obviously didn't get totally destroyed just because you assumed they did doesn't the make it so.

Also the rift machine clearly had some unforeseen side effects. The destruction of the old world created the Realms it says so in the opening paragraph of AoS, to be honest sonething that could be used to explain anything you'd like, *Magic* it is fantasy after all.

Grimgor and Ungirm were dead before the Rift opened (Ungrim quite a while before there was even another incarnate after him). Alarielle existed in different forms on the Old Workd as well that's quite an important bit of the story line aeons is fine. Grimnir is covered in Slayer. Tyrions perspective on things before he was engulfed is hardly evidence of anything (although quite understandable).

Yeah stuff hasn't all been explained yet that's what a narrative is all about the story unfolds. But seriously dude it sounds like you are deliberately trying to find fault. Almost suspiciously so.

I respect your right not to like it but youre just ignoring the answers that are right there in front of you. Not in all cases because there are as yet unexplained things going on but you are on some quite major things.

We may need to agree to differ on this one I think we've played it out as far as it will go.