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  • Morality of the Net List

    Hey guys, after an experience I had last week, I have some thoughts to share.

    To give a brief introduction, last weekend I was at Brighton Warlords tournament (Great Time, Highly Recommend!) with my tyranids. my first 4 games were not that great, the first 3 being draws and the 4th with my losing horribly. All against Gun Lines, as you can imagine, my gribblies did not fair amazingly well. In my 5th game, I was placed up against a young chap who was a great guy to play. However his list did not pose many challenges for me, with the main body of his force being 3 tactical squads and an assault squad.

    After around half an hour of playing, the result was clear and we was the first pair to finish that round as I annihilated him. Don't get me wrong, I am not the most amazing player by any means. My list is not good at that many things, but beating standard tactical marines is one thing it really excels at, so from my point of view, it was a good match up. In our post game discussion, he asked me if I had found the list I used off the internet. I casually said no and carried on as usual but since then it has been bugging me. For reference, here is my list.

    Hive Tyrant - Wings, 2x Twin Devourers - 260

    Doom Of Malan'tai - Mycetic Spore - 130

    Tervigon - Stinger Salvo, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210
    10 Termagaunts - 50

    Tervigon - Stinger Salvo, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught - 210
    10 Termagaunts - 50

    Trygon - Toxin Sacs - 210

    2 Carnifexes, 2x Twin Devourers - 380

    I would call it mildly competitive, but nothing more than that. It may be my own personal bias, but I have always found that the term Net-List has always been used in a derogatory sense. In that, a good player would not need to go online to find out how to build his army, he would be able to work it out for himself. Only less able players would feel the need to go and copy another persons ideas.

    So having just won my game, being asked if I had simply taken my list from somebody else I was slightly offended. The theory being that my gaming ability does not quite match up to my list. Now yes that is quite the cynical thought of me, he could of (and probably meant) that my list was good in general. But he did say that he had seen very similar lists online. I would call that a symptom of the Tyranid codex in itself; it isn't the best designed book. But I have had Tyranid armies for the past 7 years and would like to think I know how to play them quite well, and my own gaming group can confirm that I have spent the past few months finally crafting that list after many many play tests.

    I learnt later, that a couple of the players at the tournament, did indeed get there lists straight off the internet. I suppose the question I am asking to the general gaming community is this:

    Is copying army lists off the internet an honest way to play?
    Am I as a gamer being unfair as to judge those who do?
    Is my grumpiness over reacting to what otherwise may have been a fair comment?
    What are your opinions on the topic in question?
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Morality of the Net List started by Night System View original post
    Comments 25 Comments
    1. Caitsidhe's Avatar
      Caitsidhe -
      I think the whole "Net List" thing is vastly overblown. It has become a meaningless term like "Troll" on the internet that is applied whenever someone wants to make an excuse or villify someone. A point in case is one of my own lists. I have an (1850) CSM/IG list in which I build an artillery line for Sabres anchored on a platoon and Lord Commissar. They are the allies. The rest of my army is CSM and designed around a very aggressive, board control system. I played it for about three weeks and did amazingly well with it. It caused a storm of debate behind closed doors (and my back). I even had a friend of mine (who plays Orcs and whose planes I shot down) tell me that my list was all over the internet and he didn't like net lists. I had to smile...

      "Really? My list is so popular it is all over the internet?"

      "Yes. I've seen it several places."

      "That's funny. I follow all the sites and the only places I've seen it on the internet is where I myself have posted it."

      There are other aspects of the story but it suffices to say my list has not gone viral. The only proponent of it seems to be me. I am never going to assume anyone just copied their list from the internet, unless they tell me that. I suspect most smart people will come to similar conclusions when they study a codex or combination of such books. I tend to assume my opponent is at least as smart as I am (however intelligent that may be). It seems all to common for most people to assume they are smarter than their opponent, or at least somehow "morally" superior. I can't tell you how little I think of the attitude.

      In the end, it doesn't matter does it? You should always assume you are in for a hard fight. You do the best you can do with what you have. Even if someone is going to the internet to look for ideas, isn't the gaming community online just an extension of your friends and opponents locally? Don't you ask your friends for advice (or get it whether you ask or not) on what you should use? What would be the difference between you getting my opinion on a good list online or in person?
    1. Wolfshade's Avatar
      Wolfshade -
      I don't know Caitsidehe I've been spamming it all over the place

      That is an interesting aspect, "you only beat me because your list is a net-list."

      If you recall some of the old tactica posts by goatboy you will recall that he is a fan of redundancy in lists, and if you have an efficient mechanism for doing something, then you end up spamming it.
      I love fast vindicators, and so invarriably I will run 3, is that because I am spamming them? Possibly, but the question is why? The reason is because I believe them to be very useful at killing large numbers and they also deal really well with armour (thanks 6th ) I think they are the only S10 option in my codex. HQ choice then is going to be a librarian as the psychic powers are very good (and I can get chaplains through elites if need be), chances are I'll have a priest for a FnP bubble and assault squads and before you know what has happened you end up with a rather generic feeling list.
    1. Caitsidhe's Avatar
      Caitsidhe -
      Quote Originally Posted by Wolfshade View Post
      I don't know Caitsidehe I've been spamming it all over the place
      Preach it brother. The sooner we see the Sabre Artillery line in common use the sooner the flying circus combinations will go away for more balanced options. I'm considering running my list at this year's Alamo GT just to punish the flying circus.

      That is an interesting aspect, "you only beat me because your list is a net-list."
      It is interesting and kind of sad. The ONLY time I hear the words "Net List" come out of someone's mouth is when they are complaining about the butt-kicking they just received and need to scapegoat why they lost.

      If you recall some of the old tactica posts by goatboy you will recall that he is a fan of redundancy in lists, and if you have an efficient mechanism for doing something, then you end up spamming it.
      I tend to agree that you should go for the units that give you the most reliable bang for the buck, but I differ with Goatboy on strategy in that I think (particularly in 6th) that you also want the most options to deal with the widest variety of types of builds since you never know who you are going to pull on a particular round. As such my own most competitive "pure" CSM build only has a single Helldrake in it. I know that seems to fly in the face of net wisdom, but I simply have too many other scenarios to build for to spam three of the things. I considered two, but in the end I went to one because I truly needed the points to handle other kinds of opponents. There are still factions whose basic function is so good due to the nature of 6th Edition that spamming them is the best competitive option. This also tends to be emphasized when the army is really only good at one thing (like say Tau). However, allies still give the option of bringing in other options to build a true all comers list.

      I love fast vindicators, and so invarriably I will run 3, is that because I am spamming them? Possibly, but the question is why? The reason is because I believe them to be very useful at killing large numbers and they also deal really well with armour (thanks 6th ) I think they are the only S10 option in my codex. HQ choice then is going to be a librarian as the psychic powers are very good (and I can get chaplains through elites if need be), chances are I'll have a priest for a FnP bubble and assault squads and before you know what has happened you end up with a rather generic feeling list.
      Yep. You gravitate towards what works in the most reliable way and against the most varied threats. That is true of real military operations too. I'm never going to call someone morally bankrupt for playing the game well.
    1. pohanew's Avatar
      pohanew -
      I think that if you want to use a net list than so be it but in my opinion I think if you do you aren't confident in you own list making abilities for example I am terrible at making lists but I have managed to come up with a competitive list

      HQ
      necron overlord with warscythe and res. orb= 130 pts

      royal court
      necron lord with warscythe and res orb= 75 pts

      troop
      9 warriors= 117 pts

      5 immortals with Tesla carbines = 85 pts

      dedicated transport
      night scythe (immortals) =100 pts

      heavy support

      annihilation barge with gauss cannon= 90pts

      total 597 pts

      this list was made for warhammer world doubles invasion 2013
    1. SON OF ROMULOUS's Avatar
      SON OF ROMULOUS -
      the thing about a net list is you can have it spoon fed to you but if they don't know how to use it or the tricks that it can do most armies wont just play themselves. so you can have a very hard list but if your incompetent and don't know how to use it its just another list. i fear the veteran gamer who knows what his list can and can't do before i fear the twit with the flavor of the month.