How many points is TOO MANY in Apoc?

[lobster-overlord]

Hi all,

I have a massive Apoc game in two weeks, and in trying to build my list, I keep coming up with lists that are ranging in the 10's of thousands of points, and that is just MY army, not any of the other 4 to 7 players.

I'm running IG, BA and can field some Tau. I have dozens of tanks and transports that I want to field, but honestly, I don't know where to say STOP to my army list building.

In the past we've done point value maxes and then also model number limits (which really screws over the ork hoards and IG lists)

Thoughts or suggestions on point/model limits? At what point is a point value too much?

[erwos]

How long is the game scheduled for?

I'd first ask other players if they have any ideas. I'd also make sure you have some firm limitations on the number of super-heavies and str D weapons allowed.

The other question is "what kind of game do you want to have?" You don't need a coherent strategy at 20k+ points, because the game will devolve down into slinging a dozen giant templates every turn. At 10k, which I admit feels smallish, you've actually got to have a plan other than "how many titans and GCs can I fit in?"

[TSINI]

To be honest mate, list building is kind of irrelevant in apocalypse,

What I tend to do is ask

"how many points do you want me to chuck on the table?"

then simply keep sticking my coolest models on the board until I reach that limit.



I ran a 40,000 point weekend game a while back, and even though other organisers kept telling me "don't worry about points" it's always good to keep a rough tally on the players' army sizes, even if its only to the nearest 1000 points.

I doubt it will be a 'turn up and chuck everything you can on the table'

[lobster-overlord]

It's all day saturday, from noon until when ever.

We've joked about me just bringing my collection and then cutting back once all the others have added theirs up and figured out how much they could throw back at me. Although I could never run everything by myself....

thanks for the input.

[mynameisgrax]

It's not so much 'how many points' as 'how many units you have' aside from cheap transports and independent characters (which usually don't take long). It's the number of units you have to keep track of that really bogs down an apocalypse game.

Personally, I'd probably try to keep it at around 15 units (again, not counting lightly armed transports or characters attached to units), and certainly no more than 20. For these purposes, I'd count complex units (such as nob bikers with unique equipment) and Super heavies as 2 units each.

Anything more, and everyone's minds will probably break trying to keep everything straight.

[eriochrome]

I have played both 3K and 5K as a player and I think 3K is better for most games especially 1 day ones. I see some Apoc game set up where there is just deployment zones full of models. You want to still have movement options. Pick 1 codex and work out of that. We also like to have all super heavies/flyer/gargs declared while organizing to help balance the sides.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

I think you guys should put a firm time limit on the game. Say like noon to 6, 30 minute turns. That gets everyone active and in the game. Having taken part in some of the Preheresy Warhammer 30K apoc games and other pick up ones, having hard timed turns and an END POINT helped the games along. If not, you risk people losing interest or getting too worn out and not focusing on the game.

Also have a Side General and squadrant captains. Imagine a game with 11 people per side, each one with around 3K points. One player is the Side General, and then every 4 or 5 feet there is a quadrant captain. This lets one side of the table progress into shooting right after movement even if the other half of the table is still trying to fit all their tanks through some gates. It helps with record keeping.

Also make a rule that says "anyone on the other side may witness a die roll." I had a game where I fielded a battle company, and it was split on two parts of the board. Usually I let the quadrant captain on that side run that section of my force, or if it was the other sides turn, I'd let the captain witness the die rolls and pull models while I tended to the other side of my force. This keeps stuff moving and things organized as well.

With these simple rules, you can have very massive games run pretty smoothly.

[lobster-overlord]

IHM, those are some great ideas, thanks. I ran two battle companies one time, and another player was doing one and I the other. Play went very smoothly having split it up.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

IHM, those are some great ideas, thanks. I ran two battle companies one time, and another player was doing one and I the other. Play went very smoothly having split it up.

NP. We did a LOT of Apoc around here (at least once a month) and as such we have a lot of experience getting them going. add to that the Narritive tracks at Bols Con the past two years... some Apoc pros around here :)

Speaking of, I think we should arrange a new apoc game. My battle company has been itching for a fight

[Archon]

5K per person is a good amount of points - you can command 10K sure, but the chance to forget something is higher. A shooting phase of 10K imperial army can be very boring to the enemy ;)

In my last apo game at the WE we played 6K per side - the game went smooth and only in the later turns we forget a charge here and there. We played roughly a day. For bigger games you should have a complete WE at hand.

[Vaktathi]

Personally, I find that to get a game set up, played with 5 or 6 turns, and packed back up in a day, 4,500-6,000pts a side is about what you want to play. Anything more and you just can't get through enough.

[DrLove42]

I played a 20K a side game, and the points aren't a problem. You have to make sure the table is big enough, for us by the end of turn 2 (both sides took careful planning so reserves in turn 1 and 2) there was simply no space left on the table to bring things on close enough to the action. But i've played the same points on a bigger board and its fine.

For good gameplay you need to limit strength D weps, super heavies etc etc on the sides to balence it

[chromedog]

I've played a 40,000 pt game in 8 hours (which was about the limit of our endurance).
I personally fielded half of this (it was a 4 player game. I had an offsider to help me do stuff, the other two guys fielded 10k points each).

It's important to have an objective and time limit. If you keep going until "whenever" it becomes a matter of who dies first and it's just a meatgrinder. With a time limit and objective, then the pace and intensity keep up.

[SotonShades]

I played a 20K a side game, and the points aren't a problem. You have to make sure the table is big enough, for us by the end of turn 2 (both sides took careful planning so reserves in turn 1 and 2) there was simply no space left on the table to bring things on close enough to the action. But i've played the same points on a bigger board and its fine.

For good gameplay you need to limit strength D weps, super heavies etc etc on the sides to balence it

I'd say more a case of make sure each side as a roughly equal amounts of D weapons and super heavies. Part of the reason they were included in Apocolypse, especially the 10" template, was to clear vast swathes of infantry and tanks in a single shot to help speed up the game. However it is no fun if you are on the receiving end and can't dish out the pain in kind.

As for limits on points, I personnally think it depends on the players. In the 20k game DrLove42 mentioned, we were fortunate to have players who were happy and able to pay attention when they weren't playing actively and could take saving throws for other people's models as we all had played together before. On the other hand I played a similaraly sized game with more players at my local GW recently and because there were a lot of people who hadnt played together before and a lot of kidsa who couldnt keep their attention on the game it quickly bogged down and was a lot less fun to play (that and I wasn't allowed to use all of my tanks because we outnumbered the othersaide quite a bit all ready!)

In short,if you have people who are committed to the game and know each other well and will concentrate during the long times during the other side's turn; go big, go mad, take everything you can. If you have a load of strangers playing or those with ADD or ADHD, limit what people can take to a force they can actually control.

[RocketRollRebel]

3-4k a piece seems pretty good along with limiting the amount of super heavies allowed per player. Big Red did a really great article on running efficient and organized and fun apoc games. (that I can't seem to find to link now...). I think they are the most fun when it is kept very focused and organized and themed. Otherwise it just turns into a kill everything cluster&$*#! which just kinda feels like a waste of 8 hrs of your life by the end.

[erwos]

3-4k a piece seems pretty good along with limiting the amount of super heavies allowed per player. Big Red did a really great article on running efficient and organized and fun apoc games. (that I can't seem to find to link now...). I think they are the most fun when it is kept very focused and organized and themed. Otherwise it just turns into a kill everything cluster&$*#! which just kinda feels like a waste of 8 hrs of your life by the end.
I feel like 3k-4k is on the low end for Apoc - that, to me, is more Spearhead territory. 5k points gives you room for a full FOC plus a couple super-heavies, which is what I'd consider the _minimum_ for a real Apoc battle.

[Duke]

IMHO there isn't a maximum for apoc games... There is, however a maximum number of points per player that I would set not much above 6000.

I have played in some very large games (40,000 ptx per side) and it is usually great fun if one person isn't commanding too many points.

Duke

[Archon]

I played a 20K a side game, and the points aren't a problem. You have to make sure the table is big enough, for us by the end of turn 2 (both sides took careful planning so reserves in turn 1 and 2) there was simply no space left on the table to bring things on close enough to the action. But i've played the same points on a bigger board and its fine.

For good gameplay you need to limit strength D weps, super heavies etc etc on the sides to balence it

Yes a good point. We´ve played with 40K :cool: on a table measuring 120 x 60 inches und the imperial side could not get all there reserves on table in turn 2 :eek:

In an other place we fougt with a D-Weapon Ratio of 12 to 0 - fortunatly we had a big wall on our side und the opponent used most of the titankillers to crumble this.

[Torcano]

I feel like 3k-4k is on the low end for Apoc - that, to me, is more Spearhead territory. 5k points gives you room for a full FOC plus a couple super-heavies, which is what I'd consider the _minimum_ for a real Apoc battle.

He meant 3-4k per person. Something like 15k per side.

[lobster-overlord]

Table space, time and people isn't an issue. So I think from the input above, I'm going to shoot for 6000. I have three Superheavies at my disposal (two baneblade variants and a custom tau vehicle I'm building) and will field a lot of tanks.

John M.

[erwos]

He meant 3-4k per person. Something like 15k per side.
Why is it that people get stupid when talking about Apoc games and start using "per person" or "total points amongst all sides" as their points value when, in fact, you never talk about regular 40k that way?

[Loken]

Why is it that people get stupid when talking about Apoc games and start using "per person" or "total points amongst all sides" as their points value when, in fact, you never talk about regular 40k that way?



Well, it isn't stupid. And you do talk about regular 40K that way. You play battles by # of points. Not sure how you play.

And it is about balance. You decide how many points each side or person will have to keep the game balanced.

[erwos]

Well, it isn't stupid. And you do talk about regular 40K that way. You play battles by # of points. Not sure how you play.
I play "X point games". That's not X points per person (except where people = sides), it's X points per side. It is unnecessarily confusing to call that a 4000 point game when Apoc is involved. Even the Apoc rulebook doesn't use that terminology.

[Loken]

I run the Apoc club at the SoCal GW Battle Bunker.

We typically play a maximum # of points per person, but realize that different people have different size armies. Not everyone has 6,000 points! So we may wind up with a different # of people on each side, but always the same total points per side. That is how you keep it even.

Alec

[lobster-overlord]

Ok, so I figure I'm going to stick with the 100 model limit, irregardless of point value...(I'm at 49 models, not including troops to populate the transports, and since I'm BA, the Land Raiders of course have to have Terminators inside for Deep Striking with armor support)

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=96831#post96831

These pics are fun.

[Loken]

I don't really think a model limit works. First, there is a point system for a reason. If your opponent has Orks, well that isn't many points.

Just stick with a point limit. You will find that 3-5,000 points is easily handled by a player in an Apoc game.

[lobster-overlord]

What we do is we've figured 100 models is the max thatsomeone can move in a reasonable time, so setting limit then gives those in the game for a hobby over the game a boundary to work in (like me). Then we figure out points, like my 49 tanks/vehicles are 7000 points, and then we work that into the side/team balance at the start of the game.

Saying 3-500 points and having nothing but green tides is counter to this since that number of models is WAY more than 100 and takes for ever to move. so the green tide player generally works one tide unit and his gargant. This works great for time to move.

[lobster-overlord]

We played today. Well balanced, with about 15000 per side. 3 players each side. Liftadroppa made short work of my SM tank army, and the Armored Company did pretty well against orks and chaos deamons. Overall a fun time was had by all, ending in a draw, but I think I will really limit myself to either IG OR BA and not both. My team mates weren't stepping up and helping me shoot my tanks :-) My shooting phase alone was 20 minutes longer than any other player. GAH!

So I think I will go with the 3,000 next time and not 7,000 of tanks.

John M.