Army Builder: Yes or no?

[RebelGrot]

Good afternoon BoLs! (Good morning where applicable to different time zones)

I'm in the process of rebuilding my old Blood Angels into Angels Sanguine and, whilst figuring out purchases etc, have gone through a tree's worth of paper working out various different army lists and squad load outs.

So, now, I'm very tempted to go buy the Army Builder software to a) make life easier and b) save the rain forests. Therefore I put forward a very simple question to the BoLs lounge:

Is army Builder worth it (about £30). Does it work well and do everything the blurb says it does? And, finally, is it accurate to the points and rules limitations?

Anyone got any pros or cons?

Thanks all,

Ed

[erwos]

I bought AB for like $10 off eBay. I'd seriously investigate that route.

[RebelGrot]

I bought AB for like $10 off eBay. I'd seriously investigate that route.

Now, this I like the sound of! Thanks Erwos :)

[david5th]

It is very good. Only problem i find is that sometimes after an update, previous army list files might not load correctly.

[Iceman]

Honestly, I don't know how anyone does without it. Even at $30-$50 it is worth it. Especially if you have more than one army. Two things to watch out for:
1) When a codex is updated, it usually takes about a month for a new datafile reflecting the changes to come out.
2) As David5th says, sometimes an update can invalidate old files. However, you can get around this a little by saving them in html format.

[sangrail777]

where do you get the updates?

[scadugenga]

AB pretty much torqued me off when they tried pulling a GW-esque C&D game on the PP forums.

PP's response was chock full of classy "eff you" awesome, which made me laugh.

But the ridiculous pretentiousness of AB with that little escapade caused me to make the choice of never giving them any of my money.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?9026-Attention-Privateer-Press-Players-New-Forum-Policy

Was their response.

Lone Wolf has since "apologized" (not really) but they're still chock full of "tool."

[Necron_Lord]

I got it for $30 on EBay (about 20 pounds) and if you play a lot and with multiple armies, it is probably worth it. It has lots of game systems (not only GW ones) and for having references and statistics, it is very good. Usually updates for new codices pop up about a month after release and there are sometimes glitches on the points costs for certain upgrades for certain armies, but they normally get corrected with the newer update. There is a button on the menu for checking for updates and then they are just downloaded.

I personally feel that I get my money's worth using AB and all my friends who are into the hobby have it as well and feel the same way.

[Alrik_40000]

Army Builder is fantastic. I've tried several other roster programs, most of them free, and none are quite as good as AB. It's easy to use, and great for theoryhammer. The program has some occasional flaws, such as when Space Marines lost their frag grenades, or the time whem Nobz cost zero points! LOL I still doublecheck my rosters against my codex when I make one, but rarely is there much of a problem. Plus, it's for more than just 40k - it has datafiles for Warhammer Fantasy, Flames of War, and several other miniatures games.

You know you can download a trial version, right? It only allows you to put three units in a roster, and roster printing is disabled, but you could give the demo version a spin and see what you think of it. As far as cost goes, if you purchase the program, you can request a second key to activate AB on a different computer. So, you and a friend could split the cost and get two keys to run it on your respective computers. That's what my brother and I did... $15 bucks a person is the best value in wargaming!

Try it out... I think you'll really like it.

[Xethik]

While I would hate to promote piracy...
Bols does not support piracy in any way... Or even hinting at it

Duke

[Gotthammer]

While I would hate to promote piracy...Bols does not promote piracy in any way, or even hinting at it (duke)

If you hate to promote it, why are you promoting it? Durrrr :rolleyes:


It's a good program - I use it for testing out points for builds, and it make the 'what if I swap out the Platoon for Vets' maths easier. The wide variety of systems supported (and the ability to make your own) is a great boon too.

[BuFFo]

Buy it.

[Duke]

My only wish for Army Builder is that they would develop an app for the ipad. That would be sweeet!

Duke

[erwos]

While I would hate to promote piracy...Bols does not promote piracy in any way, or even hinting at it. (duke).

I have not seen a cracked version of AB 3.X. The cracked 2.X version isn't going to do anything for you, it's long unsupported.

The current trial is plenty fine for evaluating the program. Please don't tacitly advocate privacy.

[gwensdad]

Get it, but always double check against your codex (or whatever rules book for other games) and don't rely on it too much. I've seen players loose all imagination after getting Army Builder and just using the same builds over and over because they never even look at their own codex anymore.
*sigh*

[The Madman]

i tried the trial and though it was helpful, i felt it wern't worth the 30£ when Microsoft Word and the calculator were doing just fine for me. plus it feels to me it's an illegal program in the same respect Pirate bay was with torrent downloading, the program may not be illegal itself but the way it is used (I.E having the army list and a brief summery of what everything in the book does on a file format to work on it) is.

[Mike X]

I went years without ever knowing what Army Builder was. One day, I went into my LGS, and sitting on a table unattended was a piece of paper with a Tyranids roster featuring full unit stats and details. I looked at the bottom of the sheet, and the copyright said Army Builder. Immediately, I bought the application and have never been unsatisfied with it. Everyone uses it at my new LGS, they even installed it on the LGS's public computer. Hands-down brilliant software, and the best part is even after your year of free auto-updates is over, you can still manually install them (which is easy as hell!).

[BlindGunn]

I bought the old 2.X version and enjoyed it. I'm a cheapskate and refused to buy the new version because I have Office Suite and can create my own lists that way. It's great because it's programmable for most any game systems.

The biggest strength of Army Builder is also its biggest weakness: Someone has to create the data files. As said by others, some are pretty rough. It took me a while to get an old Space Wolves lists to work properly.

That's because there is no "official" data file for GW products. This can be important as I DO remember GW running a C & D campaign years ago against any website hosting ANY data files that contained their "Intellectual Property".

As you can imagine, sales of GW codex and army books were affected the more popular AB became. People were using AB instead of buying the books. GW got pissed, went after Lone Wolf and discoverd they didn't have a case - Lone Wolf provides software as is. Up to purchaser to write their own data files (or find someone who'll do it for them). So (rumour had it) GW went after some of the data file programmers and web site hosts. It got especially bad when GW wrote their own "Army Builder" program.

So: Decent product, but you either need to be able to create data files yourself for your own use (legally, this is what was intended) or have a good reliable source that won't dry up if GW has another hissy fit...

[erwos]

Eh, you're not realistically going to be able to get away with just AB and not the codex. Rules disputes inevitably arise where exact wording matters. Showing them your AB printout isn't going to cut it.

What the printout _is_ handy for is having a quick reference for unit and weapon stats.

[Pendragon38]

HAHA...Seattle,Washington yeah always finding a way so most of us don't need to pay for those bells and whistles in a system like windows7 LOL

[imp]

It's great to build your army in, but I really don't like the format of the finished lists. In fact where I'm from AB-lists are banned at tournaments, because of all the useless information.

[RebelGrot]

Thanks for all the responses folks!

I was expecting the odd "yeah" or "nah" but there's some really useful info - I didn't know there was a trial version so I'll get onto that.

As for piracy and all the C&D business unfortunately (for my wallet) I can't bring myself to do non-official downloads etc so I'll stick with the mini trial to get the gist and then go full price from there I reckon. And no fear regarding codex replacement, that definitely won't be happening - who wants the cold brightness of computer monitor when you can fall asleep reading the freshly printed pages of good old paper books! I think I'll use it really for getting a list together in less than 3hrs and not having to waste half a pad with crossing out, or as someone above pointed out being able to figure out simple replacement switches without needing to break out the abacus!

Cheers all :)

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

It's great to build your army in, but I really don't like the format of the finished lists. In fact where I'm from AB-lists are banned at tournaments, because of all the useless information.

What? what useless information? everything on that roster is pretty important and very handy to have on hand.

And anyway, you can tweak the output roster in a bajillion ways.

[joescalise]

Could not live without it!!!!

[N.I.B.]

The cracked 2.X version isn't going to do anything for you, it's long unsupported.
Wrong.

[erwos]

Wrong.
I have no idea what you mean. AB40k is only maintained for 3.X. Cracked or not, AB2.X isn't all that useful anymore. Incidentally, this is one of the big criticisms leveled against the devs - they basically didn't release any new releases of AB for a year so as to force people to re-up their subscriptions.

[Eyespy]

Army Builder as a program is solid, but the data files for 40k et. al are not produced by Wolflair and are often flakey and just plain wrong and poorly checked, which can be embarassing if you ever get called out on it for a tournament. The last update fixed IG veteran heavy weapons by breaking all heavy weapon teams.

[Melissia]

The data-files from http://www.ab40k.org/ are hardly "often flaky".

You just have to keep up to date.

[Eyespy]

The data-files from http://www.ab40k.org/ are hardly "often flaky".

You just have to keep up to date.

Load the imperial guard rules. Make an infantry platoon. Try and give that squad a heavy weapon.

Heavy weapons have been broken for as long as I've owned the program and the latest version, 1.9a, traded one flaw for another (Previously, infantry squads were fine, but veterans could only have mortars)

So I stand by my statement.

[Melissia]

Yes, and? Those are being patched. There is no such thing as a complex program which has no problems.

But Army Builder is still typically more accurate than people attempting to write their own lists.

[Eyespy]

Yes, and? Those are being patched. There is no such thing as a complex program which has no problems.

But Army Builder is still typically more accurate than people attempting to write their own lists.

Your point that patches that break previously working data is better than people who can't do arithmetic is technically correct, but hardly complimentary.

[Melissia]

And your little attitude isn't exactly complimentary to your attempts to make a point, either. Regardless, the fact remains that the program is useful. I never claimed anyone should rely entirely upon it. Having the codex in front of you, and understanding it, is one of the most important aspects of actually being able to play the army. This includes the points costs and army list. Army Builder is merely a tool to assist you in making a list. It is not a replacement for actually knowing the army.

[MaxKool]

i tried the trial and though it was helpful, i felt it wern't worth the 30£ when Microsoft Word and the calculator were doing just fine for me. plus it feels to me it's an illegal program in the same respect Pirate bay was with torrent downloading, the program may not be illegal itself but the way it is used (I.E having the army list and a brief summery of what everything in the book does on a file format to work on it) is.


Feels "illegal"... what the hell does that mean, either it is or it isnt. GW being the heavy handed *******s they are (C&D Party anyone?) Know all about it and as long as it keeps the page referances and dosnt list all the info GW is fine with it. its nothing like downloading a codex on BT.

there is no way to play an army properly with just AB... Sure I guess you could try and collect a list of things missing, but seriousy thats alot of work to save $30 ona codex...

AB=Sliced bread(when its correct... wich is MOST of the time)

[Loken]

I always use Army builder. I have all my codexes and know them well. But if you are putting an Apoc army list together, it really is essential.

Simple fact is that AB makes less mistakes than people using pen and paper. I am sure YOU are good at it, but running bid games I find most people are not.

Big official games we require either AB, spreadsheet or at least a good hand written one. And I let everyone use my AB on my laptop f they need it.

[BuFFo]

AB has very few mistakes. For every one mistake AB has, my opponent's hand written lists have 5.

Been using it since around 2005, and still loving it.

[RebelGrot]

Army Builder is merely a tool to assist you in making a list. It is not a replacement for actually knowing the army.

Well said, think this is a point well worth making. The reason I initially asked was to see if it's a system that will help me fiddle about my lists and to tweak elements after play tests. I don't want a codex replacement and I still want to 'learn my army' like usual. AB is just going to help me do it while I have 5mins free here or there, instead of it being a case of sitting down and cracking out a codex, pen, paper, calculator, spare pen, beer...

As for the comparisons to torrent sites and the legalities of it all I really think they're quite separate - no one downloads or streams an album or film etc that they already have, where as I imagine the vast, vast majority of AB users already possess their chosen codex or army book and use AB as a convenience tool to assist their hobby. And even if they don't own it they're a) missing out on everything interesting and b) still going to be paying GW hundreds of £/$ for the (probably rubbish) 3,000 point army they just rustled up. Silly boys and/or girls and/or Orks.

[imcdonnell]

I use Army builder extensively and have 3 licences for my son's PC and a laptop.

This enables lists to be produced quickly and easily. These can be saved and then easily edited.

Granted that updates to the codex files means that some lists have to be redone - this is very easy.

Lists also have all of the stats on them, special rules etc...

The trial version allows for 3 units to be listed - have a go and see for yourself.

[DarkAngelHopeful]

I've never used AB, but I never have (or rarely have, I'll leave it open) any mistakes on my lists. I use an excel spreadsheet and have it add up my points. Excel is always accurate if you put in the right numbers and formulas.

EDIT: You could probably make your own "army builder" if you were creative with Excel.

[Aldramelech]

Never used it, never will.

I enjoy sitting down with my book and army roster sheet, its relaxing.

But Im from a generation where work didnt stop because the computers stopped working, in fact more got done if the computers stopped working :)

[Duke]

Why do I have a sneaking feeling that this is going to end up in someone signature... Right next to the or stance on the FSM debate. Somethinglike "I use AB to build my FSM list, and proud!"

Seriously though, I agree with alder to some point. I like opening my codex on my couch and building a list... Though I do think AB is a great added value, especially when I am making my way to tournaments.

Buffo is spot on though, for every one error in a AB list I see hand written idts with 5+ mistakes.

2 points though.
1. AB is not the end all of st buidling and should still be double checked with old fashioned means.
2. Even if something is a "gameplay tool," you should still pay for it. Not paying for AB is like going to your FLGS and not paying for a tac template cause it is a "gameplay tool.". If you like something someone makes, pay them for it.

Duke

[Gotthammer]

Why do I have a sneaking feeling that this is going to end up in someone signature... Right next to the or stance on the FSM debate. Somethinglike "I use AB to build my FSM list, and proud!"

Done, 'cause it's true :D

[heartbitt]

AB .. yes or no??? Nope!!!

Fron now on I use BattleScribe is pretty much like ArmyBuillder (modules for diferent games system and files for armies) works pretty well and is FREE !!!

http://www.battlescribe.net/

[Hexx]

I am with Aldramelech on this one but I do see the good points in using it but I like to sit down with my codex and work everything out on paper then put on word and print..but I so use army builder at times.

[scadugenga]

Never used it, never will.

I enjoy sitting down with my book and army roster sheet, its relaxing.

But Im from a generation where work didnt stop because the computers stopped working, in fact more got done if the computers stopped working :)

QFT--except for that last bit. :D

[DarkLink]

I never thought it was hard enough to put a list together to require a computer program...

[Tynskel]

The answer is Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooo!

[Duke]

Done, 'cause it's true :D

lol, good one.

[DarkAngelHopeful]

I never thought it was hard enough to put a list together to require a computer program...


I completely agree. I make mine on paper as much as I do on Excel. And the only reason I use Excel is if I don't feel like writing it down at the time.

[Tynskel]

I use 'stickies'. just write the list into the sticky!

[therealjohnny5]

there's a great "your mom" joke in there that i'm going to let slide...and my biggest gripe with AB is no Mac support. I'm with duke that i'd kick a baby seal for an iphone\ipad app. but then i'd just be happy with mac to start. while it's not a necessary program to have and i don't use excel for my lists, just pen and paper, i have to say it makes building various incarnations of lists, like my random rule only ork army, a much quicker and less painful experience. So if you have the cash to throw at it, do it.

[C'Thulhu]

Army Buildertends to become a crutch. I know a guy who has it and he hardly ever knows what he's talking about because he doesn't read the codex. I say nay

[Aldramelech]

Honestly, I don't know how anyone does without it. Even at $30-$50 it is worth it. Especially if you have more than one army. Two things to watch out for:
1) When a codex is updated, it usually takes about a month for a new datafile reflecting the changes to come out.
2) As David5th says, sometimes an update can invalidate old files. However, you can get around this a little by saving them in html format.

Once upon a time in a land far, far away the people of a magical land invented a special kind of magic that let you write down things you wanted to remember, they called this magic "Paper and Pen" and it was wonderous to behold............

As to everyone with the "If you write your list it will have 20 gazillion mistakes" view point, I cannot agree.

I always write down my lists and I can honestly say they are 100% accurate because I MAKE SURE they are.

[erwos]

I always write down my lists and I can honestly say they are 100% accurate because I MAKE SURE they are.
Good for you, but most people are not so careful. Put it this way: if the entire 40k community used AB for their lists, it would be a net positive.

[Gop]

I use it and love it. It's so quick to make multiple experimental lists. I find I only use my codexes to check accuracy - human error has occured before believe it or not. I'd recommend you get it and will be happy with it.

[Mal]

I use army builder, i've had it for about 3 years now... I only had the sub for 1 year, after that it becomes free if you don't mind manually doing your updates (which isn't really an issue).

That being said I have yet to have an AB datefile that wasn't full of minor mistakes, so my advice to you all would be this:

AB is a very useful tool to have, it allows you to rework armylists without the tedium of writing everything out, however, never take it as gospel. Always check the final lists against your codex and always take your codex with you to games, AB is a suppliment to your codex, not a replacement.

[Lordgimpet]

Lol if i used the lists I wrote on pen and paper, an archeologist woulds have a better time reading glyphs on an old tomb then my chook scratchings. That said its a case of each to their own as far as choice goes.
I use AB but prior to that I generally scribble stuff down on post-its or my arm while I flick through a codex
then slap it all together in AB. Ive got the other free builder but that lacks detailed unit info you can get in AB by right clicking which also tells where in the codex its found and AB also includes info for Apoc and planetstrike etc.
AB40k.org is a must site for anyone who has AB, and to complain about bugs and such is fine just remember its a site that is made by fans for fans. if you see a bug or error report it, it is usally fixed by the next build.

But in the end just go with what suits you