forgeworld IA rules/lists

[dvs1]

What does everybody think, when it comes to the topic of forgeworld rules and casual gaming? I know most tourneys won't except lists/units from IA, but their sooo nice and beg to be played. I realize general rule of thumb is to ask your fellow ga,mers beforehand. but it would suck if you could only use them some of time.

[Javin]

All forgeworld rule sets and units are by permission only.

[hisdudeness]

Forge World rules are as ‘permission only’ as any other expansion/supplement of 40k.

I play Red Scorpions and just started Elysians and rarely have a problem as long as you do not surprise them with the rules. This should never be a problem since we are supposed to go over each other’s list before a game.

Most of the problems I have are from people making crazy claims of FW units/lists being over powered. But OP in 40k just means it is outside of the normal and the person doesn’t know how counter.

[Renegade]

You don't really need to ask, but if anyone asks be clear that you are using Imperial Armour rules and don't mix it up. IA are official GW expansions to the codices. That or you can included a single super heavy from Spearhead expansion, again no requirement to ask permission.

If anyone acts a jerk, then call em on it, and stay clear of the in the future as are most probably WAAC type of player anyway.

[Archon Charybdis]

You don't really need to ask, but if anyone asks be clear that you are using Imperial Armour rules and don't mix it up. IA are official GW expansions to the codices. That or you can included a single super heavy from Spearhead expansion, again no requirement to ask permission.

Unless you and your opponent agreed beforehand to play a Spearhead game, then no, you cannot just pull out a Super-heavy vehicle without asking. Nor could you randomly start using Planetstrike stratagems if you and your opponent didn't agree to it. If it's an expansion to the core rules, you'll need your opponent's permission before using it.


If anyone acts a jerk, then call em on it, and stay clear of the in the future as are most probably WAAC type of player anyway.

...Or they've never encountered IA before and are uncomfortable playing against it. There are lots of people out there who believe IA stuff is broken, however incorrectly, and don't feel like getting curb stomped. It only takes one game of playing against a Lucius Drop Pod (an actually mega-b0rked unit) to ruin someone's opinion of the rest of IA and make them gunshy.

[erwos]

You don't really need to ask, but if anyone asks be clear that you are using Imperial Armour rules and don't mix it up. IA are official GW expansions to the codices. That or you can included a single super heavy from Spearhead expansion, again no requirement to ask permission.
That's a heck of a stretch. You're saying that expansions are now non-optional? Am I allowed to take spearhead formations, super-heavies, and apoc formations without asking my opponent permission first? _That_ is the kind of behavior that's WAAC, sir.

Sorry, but expansions are just that: expansions. They are not core rules. The new IA books have the "expansion logo" on the front of them, and this non-ambiguously shows that they are not core. I'm not saying this as a FW hater, either: I have quite a bit of their stuff. But I'd never field it in a pick-up game without specifically asking my opponent for permission first.

[Porty1119]

I just bring the rules for any FW stuff I use (my Vulture) and people don't mind. Tournies at my FLGS actually allow FW with printed rules. (yay!)

[Mystery.Shadow]

I don't mind people using Forge World models or even SuperHeavies in 'normal' 40k games. Just let me know ahead of time and/or let me use some too!

[Valkerie]

I use Repressors in my Sisters of Battle army, and I've never had any trouble. Of course, I have a copy of the relevant rules, and if I haven't played the person before, (or if it has been a whle since I last played him,) I show the rules, explain how the vehicle works, and answer any questions he might have. As long as you aren't suddenly springing something on your opponent in the middle of the game, you shouldn't have any real problems. :)

Tournaments, of course, are a different matter entirely. There, you should always check first. And if they disallow them, there's not a lot you can do but accept it.

[Renegade]

@Archon Charybdis & erwos

Considering that at 1500 points, those formations are going to be as cripling to them as they are the other, whats the problem? You get to share lists before hand anyway (you do take written lists right?) so you should know what your up against before a model hits the table top.

[scadugenga]

Using FW lists, much like Spearhead rules, are something that should be agreed upon ahead of time. Because using expansion goodies against someone looking to play a regular game is stacking the deck.

Saying FW rules aren't broken is like saying crack's a fine addition to a growing child's nutritional diet.

FW goes over-the-top with their rules, because there's no worry about game balance. (IE, GW oversight)

Caestus Ram, anyone? How about the new Krieg uber rules? (5th ed codex prices/gear with 4th ed doctrines!)

Or, to make a better point of it--if it wasn't OP'd/borken, then the Apoc rules by GW for FW models would be exactly the same--and they are not.

Spearhead, FW, CoD, Planetstrike--all things that should be agreed on well beforehand.

[erwos]

@Archon Charybdis & erwos

Considering that at 1500 points, those formations are going to be as cripling to them as they are the other, whats the problem? You get to share lists before hand anyway (you do take written lists right?) so you should know what your up against before a model hits the table top.
Have you even read the spearhead formation rules? They give you a massive boost for relatively few points. You get to take units outside of the FOC, they can fire one additional gun at all times, and you get access to some very effective upgrades. Every mechanized IG or Eldar player would take spearheads, given the choice. The concept that they're detrimental is a good laugh - not to mention that, for a lot of us, a standard game is 2000 points.

Sorry, but expansions are optional. It reeks of power-gaming to just run through them taking whatever you want, screw the other guy.

[Diehard]

This is why GW and FW need to decide on exactly who is going to write the rules. All the problems come from them not working together after the model design is over. That is really rant for another day though. I figure as long as you can bring in the book with the rules and a matching model then it is game on with no exception given for tournaments. Part of the problem of them being 'unbalanced' is they see so little time on the table mo one ever gets to work out the weaknesses. It is the same thing with the internet list of the week. Play anything enough times and you will find its faults. If it means getting your armies teeth kicked in so be it. This is coming from a Tau player so no it is not some SM power player that wants to have dreadnoughts assaulting out of drop pods. It is the simple fact that they built the model to be played and not sit on a shelf collecting dust.

[Renegade]

@Erwos: The US gae aybe 2000 points, however, the British and European gae is played at 1500, whih is also the points leel that GW tests the game at. Your paying extra for taking Spearheads, so a good starndard list is still taking more.

The only exuse is that a player not flexable, and then they only have themselves to blame, as some one using those extra rules are still paying points and there is no need to play the extra senarios unless both agree.

[scadugenga]

@Erwos: The only exuse is that a player not flexable, and then they only have themselves to blame, as some one using those extra rules are still paying points and there is no need to play the extra senarios unless both agree.

Sorry, but you're flat out wrong.

60 points (an IG mortar heavy weapon squad) to give your formation tanks a 5++ save? Or Tank Hunters, or the ability to flank or scout/infiltrate? And that's what makes it okay to use in regular games? And being able to select units outside of FoC chart rules to boot.

Sorry Renegade--you're way off base if you think that the points cost (on avg, 60) make it somehow okay to use these rules in a regular game.

And if you think I'm wrong. Play an eldar player who for 660 points, takes 6 wraithlords (with wraithsword) with fleet, counter attack, furious charge & rage.

[erwos]

I'm guessing you don't play many pick-up games, Renegade. For some of us, though, that's the scene.

Yes, if you're screwing around with a bunch of friends or whatever, _maybe_ what you're describing is acceptable, because everyone knows the house rules (yes, taking spearhead formations without spearhead missions is a house rule!). But for random games against relative strangers, you're generally going to find yourself with an unfortunate reputation pretty fast - the guy who can't make his army work using just the codex, and then whines when you ask him to field a normal, tournament-legal army.

I like Spearhead; I like Apoc; I like FW. But there's a serious conceit when "I like" suddenly becomes "you must use". They're expansions, not core rules.

[pgmason]

Personally I'm happy to use and/or face FW models in any game. Things like superheavies and fliers need prior arrangement as they can change the fundamental nature of the game (as would adding in Spearhead, Cities of Death, Planetstrike or Apocalypse), but I see no need for it with most FW stuff. Prior disclosure yes, prior arrangement no.

Balance isn't a good argument for refusing FW, since most FW vehicles are costed based on the old VDR rules, making them more expensive than their codex equivalents. Hence the FW baneblade cost is around 650pts, while the GW one is 500.

I can't think of any circumstance where I'd refuse a game based on what units the other person is playing. If we're at the club and you say to me you want to play with your Krieg list, I'm going to say 'hell yes'! Equally if you want to play spearhead or planetstrike I'm probably going to want a few minutes to rearrange my list to fit the new FOC, but I'm not going to say no.

[erwos]

I can't think of any circumstance where I'd refuse a game based on what units the other person is playing. If we're at the club and you say to me you want to play with your Krieg list, I'm going to say 'hell yes'! Equally if you want to play spearhead or planetstrike I'm probably going to want a few minutes to rearrange my list to fit the new FOC, but I'm not going to say no.
You're missing the point: this isn't about whether you should play against such units and lists, but that people fielding them need to ask for permission first.

As for, "well, let me just quickly reorganize my list", I don't know about you, but the following lists for me are _very_ different:
1. Tournament-legal, codex-only IG army
2. IG army using FW units (breaching drills!)
3. IG army using FW _lists_ (Armoured Battle Group!)
4. IG army using Spearhead rules (zillions of tanks and a super-heavy!)

It's not reasonable or realistic to expect me to haul miniatures for all these contingencies. In fact, it's annoying enough just to come with just 1 and 2. Sure, I don't have to use FW stuff just because you're using it - but at that point, doesn't your sudden wealth of options give you something of an advantage over me?

Better to just start with the assumption that you're playing a normal game, and then, politely, ask the opponent if they're OK with a FW unit or two. If they say no, smile, thank them, and get on with the game. If they say yes, don't abuse the privilege...

[Vaktathi]

Saying FW rules aren't broken is like saying crack's a fine addition to a growing child's nutritional diet. Um, for the non-Apoc stuff, methinks you need to actually get to know more of the IA rules for these things. Most aren't really competitively costed, intentionally so.



FW goes over-the-top with their rules, because there's no worry about game balance. (IE, GW oversight) Um, really? The vast majority of FW stuff is intentionally overcosted. Yeah, there's a couple screwups, but overall there's far fewer broken FW units than GW codex units (e.g. Lash, Biker Nobs, Vendettas, etc)

You'll notice just about every FW unit that GW has included in a codex became cheaper and/or better. Look at the Hydra. FW had that at 200pts. GW made it 75 with a cover save ignoring rule for skimmers and bikes, and able to be taken in Squadrons. The Valkyrie was around 200pts after Rocket pods previously (as opposed to 130) and only AV11, and while yes, it was a flyer, it was nowhere near as useful or capable as it is now, and the Vendetta was entirely a GW proper creation. The LR Executioner was a single shot plasma cannon turret, not a 3 shot one with the ability to get plasma cannon sponsons as well until GW proper made it that.

Is a Leman Russ annihilator really all that scary? A TL lascannon turret instead of a battlecannon? A Firestorm, basically a falcon but with a single turret mounted AA weapon isntead of a pulse laser+extra gun?

I think there's some overreaction here to one or two FW units.

Hell, even the Baneblade was considered rather lame until GW made it amazing. Before it was 634pts (instead of 500) with no 10" blast (only a 5" for the main gun), didn't get the Coaxial re-roll, could only pivot 90* each turn instead of like any normal vehicle now, and the damage chart was basically that of 3E/4E where a 4/5/6 would take off a structure point, not just a 5 or 6, and then each structure point lost also allowed an additional roll on the damage tables again, and the main weapon didn't get a save to avoid destruction.



Caestus Ram, anyone? Still in playtesting without finalized rules, and says exactly that on the PDF.


How about the new Krieg uber rules? (5th ed codex prices/gear with 4th ed doctrines!) 60pt infantry squads without access to Heavy Weapons, no Chimeras, no Vendettas, only Artillery platforms no mobile artillery units, no Manticores, no Veterans (Engineers are *not* vets, BS3 and no access to Melta/Flamer/Plasma/GL except a single Demo charge or Heavy Weapon other than the terrible Mole launcher), no PBS's, no Marbo, etc. and *everything* costs more.

the Elites artillery and Hades are not in any way going to make up for that.

Likewise, in general, the Krieg rules are going to be more of a detriment than a boon, unless specifically running Blob platoons, which not every unit can do. In general you will want your units to get run down and destroyed quickly so you can shoot at the enemy again, and Krieg units are going to stay stuck in combat, not really being any more ffective than normal guardsmen, meaning you won't get to shoot more.

If you think the Krieg list is broken, you have some serious issues. It's nowhere near the power of the basic IG codex.



Also, the argument I see pop up a lot is "oh, I have no idea what these things do, I don't want to play them" I find to be rather naff. Most people don't own and aren't familiar with all the printed codex's, do they pitch the same fit if they come up against a Dark Eldar player and have never seen the book or the army before?

What about a new codex?

It's easy to get most of the Imperial Armor rules as they are available for free download from the FW site for most of their models. And regardless an opponent should always have them with them anyway for you to look over.

If it's designed to be used in a basic 1500-2000pt game within the confines of the core rulebook (like Heavy Mortars or Repressors) I just don't see the issue other than people wanting to be snooty. If you haven't seen the rules before, ask your opponent to hand them over, no different than a new codex or one you haven't played before.

[BuFFo]

If my opponent asks before hand, I will ALWAYS let them use these units, super heavies, flyers, I don't care.

If my opponent just plops them on the table without asking me, I will ALWAYS deny their usage.

[erwos]

Also, the argument I see pop up a lot is "oh, I have no idea what these things do, I don't want to play them" I find to be rather naff. Most people don't own and aren't familiar with all the printed codex's, do they pitch the same fit if they come up against a Dark Eldar player and have never seen the book or the army before?

What about a new codex?
FW stuff is not really available in the USA without importing it. That's the big difference. That new codex is on every store's shelves - the newest IA, not so much. So, while I think you make some reasonable points elsewhere, I think you're glossing over some problems with this one.

[Vaktathi]

FW stuff is not really available in the USA without importing it. That's the big difference. That new codex is on every store's shelves - the newest IA, not so much. So, while I think you make some reasonable points elsewhere, I think you're glossing over some problems with this one.

True, but you can however get all the stuff for IA 1,2 and 5 in free PDF download however (and those 3 have the vast majority of rules for FW's models). Granted, yes IA books are expensive and 3/4/6/7 have to be bought from the UK or a US Battle Bunker, I still don't think it's a great reason to refuse the stuff, especially if someone hasn't taken advantage of the relatively better access to buy all the codex's, because at that point you end up in the same situation of not having the book and not knowing the oppositions rules. A good example is DE, which for the last few years have been direct order only from the GW online store, you haven't been able to get any of their stuff off shelves in 4 years, and I've never seen someone refuse DE a game, though they'll disqualify FW stuff for sharing that same condition.

[scadugenga]

Um, for the non-Apoc stuff, methinks you need to actually get to know more of the IA rules for these things. Most aren't really competitively costed, intentionally so.

Um, really? The vast majority of FW stuff is intentionally overcosted. Yeah, there's a couple screwups, but overall there's far fewer broken FW units than GW codex units (e.g. Lash, Biker Nobs, Vendettas, etc)

You'll notice just about every FW unit that GW has included in a codex became cheaper and/or better. Look at the Hydra. FW had that at 200pts. GW made it 75 with a cover save ignoring rule for skimmers and bikes, and able to be taken in Squadrons. The Valkyrie was around 200pts after Rocket pods previously (as opposed to 130) and only AV11, and while yes, it was a flyer, it was nowhere near as useful or capable as it is now, and the Vendetta was entirely a GW proper creation. The LR Executioner was a single shot plasma cannon turret, not a 3 shot one with the ability to get plasma cannon sponsons as well until GW proper made it that.

Is a Leman Russ annihilator really all that scary? A TL lascannon turret instead of a battlecannon? A Firestorm, basically a falcon but with a single turret mounted AA weapon isntead of a pulse laser+extra gun?

I think there's some overreaction here to one or two FW units.

Hell, even the Baneblade was considered rather lame until GW made it amazing. Before it was 634pts (instead of 500) with no 10" blast (only a 5" for the main gun), didn't get the Coaxial re-roll, could only pivot 90* each turn instead of like any normal vehicle now, and the damage chart was basically that of 3E/4E where a 4/5/6 would take off a structure point, not just a 5 or 6, and then each structure point lost also allowed an additional roll on the damage tables again, and the main weapon didn't get a save to avoid destruction.

Still in playtesting without finalized rules, and says exactly that on the PDF.

60pt infantry squads without access to Heavy Weapons, no Chimeras, no Vendettas, only Artillery platforms no mobile artillery units, no Manticores, no Veterans (Engineers are *not* vets, BS3 and no access to Melta/Flamer/Plasma/GL except a single Demo charge or Heavy Weapon other than the terrible Mole launcher), no PBS's, no Marbo, etc. and *everything* costs more.

the Elites artillery and Hades are not in any way going to make up for that.

Likewise, in general, the Krieg rules are going to be more of a detriment than a boon, unless specifically running Blob platoons, which not every unit can do. In general you will want your units to get run down and destroyed quickly so you can shoot at the enemy again, and Krieg units are going to stay stuck in combat, not really being any more ffective than normal guardsmen, meaning you won't get to shoot more.

If you think the Krieg list is broken, you have some serious issues. It's nowhere near the power of the basic IG codex.



Also, the argument I see pop up a lot is "oh, I have no idea what these things do, I don't want to play them" I find to be rather naff. Most people don't own and aren't familiar with all the printed codex's, do they pitch the same fit if they come up against a Dark Eldar player and have never seen the book or the army before?

What about a new codex?

It's easy to get most of the Imperial Armor rules as they are available for free download from the FW site for most of their models. And regardless an opponent should always have them with them anyway for you to look over.

If it's designed to be used in a basic 1500-2000pt game within the confines of the core rulebook (like Heavy Mortars or Repressors) I just don't see the issue other than people wanting to be snooty. If you haven't seen the rules before, ask your opponent to hand them over, no different than a new codex or one you haven't played before.

So, I'm snooty because I don't want to get blindsided by a PG bat? Whatever.

So, let's break down the Krieg, shall we? for 1 point more per model (per inf squad) you get +1WS, Iron Discipline, and Die Hards. Plus, unlike the Codex IG, both the sarge and the commisar in a standard squad get to have powerfist options. tell me again how that doesn't make them effective in blob units? 2 WS4 powerfists per squad?

You know what, I'll leave it at there. If you think that for +1 point/guy is not OP'd to have the most of the best doctrines in the 4th ed game for 5th ed units and prices, you'll never get it.

So, that's Krieg. A melee oriented horde army that you're saying isn't op'd because they don't have armor like the regular dex. Riiight...

Sure, GW stole things they wanted to use and made them cheaper--it's what they do. But the new stuff coming out, is just as whacked. And no offense, you're firestorm example blows--it was a crappy idea from the get go.

And, as a quick aside--FW modified all their point costs with their updates--so things aren't quite so disparate as you'd like people to believe. There's a 130pt base Leman Rus variant. Oh, and they still kept the more "powerful" version options to the Manticore (7" St 9 AP1 blast) so that argument's out the window too.

You can find the updates here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html

But lets discuss issues and not make snide comments about people who don't agree with you, neh?

[Chuck777]

Anything that is not the core rules (BRB plus the 16 codecies) is optional, which require permission to use. It's as simple as that.

[Vaktathi]

So, let's break down the Krieg, shall we? for 1 point more per model (per inf squad) you get +1WS, Iron Discipline, and Die Hards. Plus, unlike the Codex IG, both the sarge and the commisar in a standard squad get to have powerfist options. tell me again how that doesn't make them effective in blob units? 2 WS4 powerfists per squad? WS4 and Die Hards is, most of the time, going to be a detriment more than a blessing. You want those units to get run down quick and killed so you can shoot again. WS4 isn't making them hit back any harder, it only makes them get hit a little less, and Die Hards is counterproductive as you don't want them sitting in CC. In single Infantry Squads, if you want 11 T3 S3 5+sv dudes with a flamer and 2 S6 powerfists for 130pts, be my guest, that's not exactly a great buy. With a normal codex I could get 20 dudes with two autocannons and two grenade launchers for that same price, or an AC/GL squad in a Chimera with a heavy stubber, mulilaser and heavy bolter, giving me 4 36"+ range weapons with 11 shots for the same price and a tank they have to crack me out of.

The only time that's going to be worth it is in blob platoons, and then you're having far fewer heavy weapons as the Infantry Squads *cannot* take heavy weapons. Not to mention fewer infantry just in general because they cost 20% more.

As for Powerfists, yeah, you can get them in there, but they are S6 rather than the more ubiquoutous S8, and you're increasing the cost of the unit by 25% for that *single* upgrade.


Basically, you're paying a lot of points for CC upgrades on what is still at its core a shooting army.

Yeah, I guess you can fit in a lot of I1 S6 powerfists into a max'd Krieg blob platoon, but that's going to be a 425pt+ unit without any heavy weapons and before buying any special weapons if you're kitting it with only 1 Commissar (all you need for the Ld9 and Reroll). 475 if you want to give it a clutch of BS3 Meltaguns. They die just as easily as normal guardsmen and have significantly less firepower. 445pts gets me a similarly equipped Codex blob squad, with Powerweapons instead of Powerfists, but they would also have *5* Heavy Bolters or Autocannons to shoot at stuff with, 475 lets me pack in 6 meltabombs as well so I have a chance to kill something like a Dreadnought or Soul Grinder that gets stuck in. So I'm hit a little easier in CC and my PW's are S3 instead of S6 but don't strike at I1 and I can harm heavy vehicles and have a far more shooting capability.

For basically as much as that kitted Krieg platoon, using a codex army I can get 4 AV12 tanks carrying 35 infantry, packing 4 Multilasers, 4 heavy Bolters, 4 meltaguns, 3 autocannons, and 3 grenade launchers.

I can tell you most IG players are going to least favor the Krieg unit over the alternatives.

Now, I guess you could give the Blob Platoon 5 Commissars, giving you 10 S6 powerfists, but at that point you're talking about a *625* point unit before any other upgrades. I think most opponents will be fine with an opponent dumping that many points into a single IG blob squad. At that point it costs as much as a tricked out Nob Biker squad that's hardier, killier, and faster. Or 3 6man CSM Terminator squads (18 Terminators) with a couple powerfists in each, some combi meltas, and a buttload of powerweapons and Icons to allow other units to come in without DS Scatter.

Additionally, you are also then overpaying for the Commissar because half of his benefit (no negative morale modifiers) is already costed into the basic troops.

Also, what good is +1WS and Die Hards on Artillery crewman and Heavy Weapons squads? You still pay for it, but it's pointless. Even on Command squads, the extra WS is basically worthless, and the Die Hards is, without question, more of a detriment on those units than a boon.

The Rough Rider equivalents, Death Riders, likewise have been overcosted to uselessness. A 60% cost increase for a 6+ invul save, no access to things like Meltaguns, and a pistol to go with the CCW. While yes, they are more effective in rounds they didn't get charged, units that are WS4 T3 S3 I3 A1 Ld7/8 Sv 5+/6+ are not worth 16pts. They hit no harder on a charge (the only place they matter) and lack the extra shooting options of normal rough riders, basically so they might kill an extra foe or two after they've already spent themselves and are going to die anyway.



You know what, I'll leave it at there. If you think that for +1 point/guy is not OP'd to have the most of the best doctrines in the 4th ed game for 5th ed units and prices, you'll never get it. Or you know, I have a fair bit of experience with Imperial Guard between two, almost three armies over various editions and can tell whats hype and whats not:rolleyes:

1pt for guardsmen is a rather noticeable cost increase. 1pt is very little for Space Marines, it's another when that's 20% of the models cost.



So, that's Krieg. A melee oriented horde army that you're saying isn't op'd because they don't have armor like the regular dex. Riiight... That's what makes the current IG dex strong. The Krieg list lacks Chimeras, Vendettas, Valkyries, Sentinels, Hydras, Armored Sentinels, Marbo Manticores, Psyker Battle Squads, Veterans, Griffons,Collossi, and Primaris Psykers. You know, all the stuff people think make Imperial Guard broken. Plus a lot of other stuff like Ratlings and Ogryn.

If you think WS4 and CC stubborn infantry that are more expensive across the board, along with Elites artillery that are going to whiff half the time due to the Multiple Barrage rules, are going to break an IG army without all the stuff I listed above, I really don't know what to say. They even managed to make ST's even worse by taking away their pistol/CCW combo in exchange for WS4/Stubborn (not a fair trade) and making them cost 2pts more each, removing the ability to take Plasma Guns, no Special Operations, and no Chimera or Vendetta option only Centaurs

The list is quite literally missing almost everything that people describe as being the strengths of the IG codex. WS4, Stubborn, and increased access to Powerfists (in an archetypal *shooting* army) is going to cure all that? I really don't think so.


Point for Point, those guardsmen still are *very* expensive next to contemporaries.Do you think a 6pt WS4 S3 T3 A1 5+sv stubborn Krieg Guardmen really is worth a 6pt Ork Boy with WS4 S3 T4 A2 6+sv Furious Charge+Mob RUle+Shoota/Choppa? Not in a lifetime.

You take that 425pt Guard blob with 6 powerfists against 2 30 strong Ork Boyz mobs with a single powerklaw in each, in total costing 430pts (only 5pts more) and you get two units instead of one, 10 more dudes, harder to kill dudes, and far more attacks, and those Klaws are S8/9 instead of 6.




Sure, GW stole things they wanted to use and made them cheaper--it's what they do. But the new stuff coming out, is just as whacked. Aside from the still labelled "experimental" Caestus, what's so horrific? I can think of far more broken Codex IG units than FW has come out with. And lets be honest,while it should cost a bit more, the primary issue with the Caestus is that it's an FA unit, not HS. Given the already existing Stormraven, I can't see how it's too much worse. The only things I really felt weren't kosher were the Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pods, and the Blight Drones.


And no offense, you're firestorm example blows--it was a crappy idea from the get go. Most IA stuff has been historically like that however. The hydra also blew when it was 200pts. Would you have still been as adamant about declaring it as broken as "crack cocaine in a child's diet'?



And, as a quick aside--FW modified all their point costs with their updates--so things aren't quite so disparate as you'd like people to believe. Yes to a degree, but that also was basically forced on them as nobody is going to use or buy models for 200pt Hydras anymore or undergunned Leman Russ Variants that cost upwards of 200pts for what they did. I can't really see how much, if any, of the updated Imperial Armor 1 IG stuff is out of line.

However many things still are rather overpriced from FW next to Codex equivalents, or are just plain pointless. Units like Salamander Command & Salamander Scout, Cyclops, Trojan, Sentinel Powerlifter, Centaur, Atlas,etc.


There's a 130pt base Leman Rus variant. Yeah, the Annihilator and Conqueror. The Annihilator's got a single BS3 Lascannon in place of a Battlecannon, and in most of the places it's available (e.g. armored battlegroup and whatnot) it's still 150. For 130pts, do you really think that's undercosted? 145 with a hull lascannon? As a comparison, an AC/LC pred, while not having the same armor, is going to be far, far more effective with more firepower for fewer points, especially when compared to a BA Fast AC/LC pred, Or a Vendetta, which has more guns that are *all* TL'd, Scout, DS, Extra Armor, is a Fast Skimmer that will pretty much always have LoS, and a 12man Transport capacity, suffering only in weaker armor.

The Conqueror has no Lumbering Behemoth rule (meaning moving and utilizing those sponsons is out) has a shorter range on its main gun and, while still S8 AP3, is only using a small blast, not the 5" LRBT blast.

It's hard to see that as horrifically undercosted in comparison, when it offers less mobile firepower and a smaller blast template with only 2/3rds the range.




Oh, and they still kept the more "powerful" version options to the Manticore (7" St 9 AP1 blast) so that argument's out the window too.They kept the option for it's original use, how is that bad? How so is that so much more powerful? Larger blast with better AP, but minimum 36" range (meaning you can't hit half the board, 50% larger min range than the Codex version) lower Strength, and it's only *one* shot a turn , not potentially up to *three* shots a turn. I know damn sure I'd take the D3 S10 templates every time over the S9 AP1 version. AP1 is for tank killing, D3 10 shots is going to work better for that. For anti-infantry work, I can get more cost efficient performance from just about every other artillery option, or a Leman Russ Battle Tank.

And it's not like you can switch between shots in game.

What argument is out the window here?



But lets discuss issues and not make snide comments about people who don't agree with you, neh?
I didn't direct any snide comments against anyone, I did make a generalized observation as to how such behavior appears to me.

[Archon Charybdis]

The Lucius Drop Pods and the Caestus are really the only things from FW I've seen that make me go "Seriously, wtf?" As often as not the things I've seen browsing through IA2 Update, for example, are pretty fairly priced or even a little expensive (there's a few good examples in the random land raider variants).

But I think Buffo hit the nail on the head. Aside from those two specific examples, I have no problem with FW rules. However, I do want to know what I'm facing beforehand, and I don't appreciate having something completely unexpected sprung on me. If it's an honest mistake and they didn't think to mention it (maybe its a club scene where most people already know his army), that won't bother me so much. If it's a guy who's intentionally going for the shock and surprise of it, I'll call BS. It's unsporting and I'm not going to put up with it.

[Gotthammer]

Given I've been told they're looking to stock the IA books in stores, things might change.

[erwos]

True, but you can however get all the stuff for IA 1,2 and 5 in free PDF download however (and those 3 have the vast majority of rules for FW's models). Granted, yes IA books are expensive and 3/4/6/7 have to be bought from the UK or a US Battle Bunker, I still don't think it's a great reason to refuse the stuff, especially if someone hasn't taken advantage of the relatively better access to buy all the codex's, because at that point you end up in the same situation of not having the book and not knowing the oppositions rules. A good example is DE, which for the last few years have been direct order only from the GW online store, you haven't been able to get any of their stuff off shelves in 4 years, and I've never seen someone refuse DE a game, though they'll disqualify FW stuff for sharing that same condition.
You can buy the DE codex in stores. You're being disingenuous by confusing the rules and the models here.

And, no, not all the FW rules are online. If someone's fielding, say, Elysians, there's just no way to know about what that army is packing.

[Vaktathi]

You can buy the DE codex in stores. You're being disingenuous by confusing the rules and the models here. Between a dozen FLGS's in three or four states and the Los Angeles Battle Bunker, I have never seen a DE Codex on a shelf. You have to either direct order it online, or have the store do so for you.



And, no, not all the FW rules are online. If someone's fielding, say, Elysians, there's just no way to know about what that army is packing.Right, and I said just that, but that's why people bring their rules with them so you can look it over. And again, I don't see how it's so different than a new codex or one you just have never played against before.

[SotonShades]

Personnally I love the FW lists. I think they are fun to play with and against; the Ork Dred-Mob list in IA8 in particular. But that is just the thing... they are geared towards fun games between two like minded players, rather than as competitive, balanced lists for tournaments and the like.

I have more than a few FW models. Among my local gaming group, most people know this and more or less expect me to bring some resin gribblyness to the table and so don't have a problem with me either using the FW lists, or a couple of FW units in a regular list. On the other hand if I was playing someone I hadn't met I'd either use those models as a non-FW equiovolent (Chaplain Dreadnought as a Venerable Dreadnought for example), play a normal GW list or go over the rules with my opponant beforehand so they know what they are up against. So far I've yet to come across anyone who has outright said no. Quite the opposite in fact; the usual response goes along the lines of "Man! I have to destroy that thing :D"

[Old_Paladin]

You should always ask an opponents permission (or check the tournies rules) before using forgeworld.

Like it or not, they are a thrid-party group (well, a subsidiary of a company); it's not called Games Workshops' Imperial Armour.

Forgeworld has a lot of mix in it's rules. Somethings are overcosted (like the old hydra), most are costed pretty well, and some... well... breaching drill comes to mind [if you think 150 points is way too much for an "always deploys on turn two with a strength ten, AP: 1, melta, large blast, that removes terrain; then on turn three (or later) a scoring unit in carapace armour shows up" you need to check how much things cost in other codexes! If Space Marine drop-pods did that, people might actually force a ban on a mainstream codex.]

The fact is, if you just blindly allow anyone to use forgeworld at anytime; for every person that takes an overcosted unit that they think is fun or that uses the rules to update their aged codex (like the poor inquisitors), there will be people that use undercosted unit, with rules that are far to unbalanced.

[Vaktathi]

People pick and choose the best units anyway, it's hard to see where including IA stuff would be any worse than the Codex stuff we already deal with. As an example, I see Plague Marines with Lash Princes and Oblits quite often. I never see Spawn. Assuming you throw in FW stuff, I don't really see any of the FW Chaos stuff for instance really changing what people take in CSM armies, you might see Dreadclaws in competitive games, but maybe not even those as they are expensive and and the army really isn't built to utilize them like the normal Space Marine army.

Also, the Engineers+Drill isn't as bad as people think. Drill comes up, maybe pops something. Dies in next enemy turn as it's an AV11/10/10 box. The enemy then knows exactly when and where the squishy expensive (10pts each, double a basic guardsman!) engineers with relatively few weapons options, S3 guns, and a pretty standard guardsmen statline, aside from 4+ armor and WS4, are coming up and can react accordingly. Any competent opponent is going to be able to pretty easily counter the engineers. It's no different than the Trygon, except that the Trygon might actually last. You don't see people freaking out about the Trygon's tunnel ability anymore.

For 150pts, I'd rather have a Chimeltavet squad if I'm going for competitiveness.

Also, at least according to the FW website, FW isn't a subsidiary, they are a division of GW, meaning they aren't even a different entity. Note that all of their emails and contacts are "@games-workshop.co.uk" and not "@forgeworld.co.uk" Their works all have a*GW* copyright (not a FW one, at least with the one book I have in front of me right now being IA:5) and their models are considered Citadel models.

[Old_Paladin]

People pick and choose the best units anyway, it's hard to see where including IA stuff would be any worse than the Codex stuff we already deal with.

For 150pts, I'd rather have a Chimeltavet squad if I'm going for competitiveness.

For 150 points I'd rather have the codex vet squad with 3 melta and the forgeworld drill.

For it's price, it's more accurate, timely and cheaper then an orbital bombardment. It makes a mockery of anyone that plays a denied reserves game (as it doesn't rely on dice rolls); an most armies are going to be hardpressed to devote anything to stopping that 100 point vet squad from coming (you'd have to plug the hole for 3+ turns, it doesn't even use normal deep strike, the vets are alot harder to contain). Oh, and there is ZERO things you can do to stop it. You cannot slow down it's arrival, you cannot damage it before it deploys it's massive hit and you cannot damage the squad at all until it's on the field (and the turn it shows up, they get all their full actions, so its better then normal deep strike).

You say that this tactic is useless because the trygon is like this and no-one uses one anymore. Remind me again how much the trygon costs? More then 50 points? Does it do a strength 10, AP: 1, melta hit that destroys terrain? Does it always come of the same turn and you can build a solid stratagy around it, or does it come on randomly using pretty normal deepstrike rules? Can it be destroyed with a bad scatter [I honestly don't know its rules]? There is also the units following it, even if they are troops scoring; what if they're out of synapes range? Do they get to wait until it's safe to come out? Do they count as deep striking, or can they shoot and then assault from the tunnel (if within synapes range)?


The point is that if it's just codex lists you have a general idea of what to expect. If people can start showing up with forgeworld, then why not indie lists (some of which are as good and balanced as forgeworld, sometimes better)?
If people get fighter jets, or heavy bombers without having to ask; then there's a whole new set of rules that a non-forgeworld player will have to know, in addition to the new tactics, strengths and weaknesses of the opponent.


They simply need to ask ahead of time if forgeworld is alright; that way people can either say "sure, that armoured company with no scoring units is fun," or "NO! I'm not playing against your vet/drill list with that strength D weapon tank; stick the guard codex, like everyone else that doesn't have an extra $500 laying around."

[Vaktathi]

For 150 points I'd rather have the codex vet squad with 3 melta and the forgeworld drill. Depends on the rule and opponent, that'd be a more effective combo though than the engineers probably, but they'd also be a suicide unit, unlike the chimeltavets that can sit in their chimerabunkers and shoot out with 3 meltaguns and a lascannon, needing to only worry about damage to the chimera.



For it's price, it's more accurate, timely and cheaper then an orbital bombardment. Why are we comparing it to something out of 3rd edition army books?


It makes a mockery of anyone that plays a denied reserves game (as it doesn't rely on dice rolls); So does an Officer of the Fleet or infiltrating kroot and any number of things. I'm pretty sure it still does rely on dice rolls :p


an most armies are going to be hardpressed to devote anything to stopping that 100 point vet squad from coming (you'd have to plug the hole for 3+ turns, it doesn't even use normal deep strike, the vets are alot harder to contain). Why would you have to plug it for three turns? It says they come in automatically the turn after the drill arrives. That means you know exactly when and where that unit will arrive, and can either clear out to avoid the emerging unit, or sit a tank on the hole, effectively meaning the squad is destroyed as it can't come on.



Oh, and there is ZERO things you can do to stop it. Just like a drop pod?


You cannot slow down it's arrival Anything that effects reserves can certainly do so. The Hades follows the normal reserve rules.


you cannot damage it before it deploys it's massive hit Likewise you can't do the same to a drop pod with a deathwind launcher toting a mutlimelta dread. That's going to hit turn one and there's nothing you can do about it either. Comes down first turn, dread pops a tank, pod blasts the infantry. All from a normal codex.


and you cannot damage the squad at all until it's on the field You mean like anything else coming in from reserves?


(and the turn it shows up, they get all their full actions, so its better then normal deep strike). While true, again you know exactly when and where it's going to show up once the drill is in play and should have plenty of opportunity to react, and it's not like you have much to worry about from a squad of guardsmen in terms of assaults. Shooting is really the only thing that'll matter 95% of the time, so the vast majority of the time it's going to be no different than anything else coming in from reserves like Chaos Termi's loaded with combi weapons or Oblits coming down on icons without scatter and dumping melta shots into enemy tanks, or Stormtroopers coming in and blasting something.




You say that this tactic is useless because the trygon is like this and no-one uses one anymore. Remind me again how much the trygon costs? More then 50 points? Does it do a strength 10, AP: 1, melta hit that destroys terrain? A Hades has nowhere near the killing potential, staying power, speed, or potential army control utility (Synapse) that a Trygon offers. A Hades is very easily killed off both by mid strength shooting attacks and any sort of CC. A Trygon is a T6, 6 Wound Monstrous Creature with Fleet and a 3+ armor save, that has a decent shooting attack and amazing Close Combat abilities, not an AV11/10/10 tin box with a single BS3 blast attack (admittedly strong, but high chance of whiffing) limited to moving 6" a turn that's completely helpless in CC with the sole exception of high Ramming strength.


Does it always come of the same turn and you can build a solid stratagy around it I'm pretty sure that, unless you're playing Apocalypse, the Hades follows the normal reserve rules. At least that's how I read it's rules. So no different than the Trygon there.



Can it be destroyed with a bad scatter [I honestly don't know its rules]? For both the Hades and Trygn, unless if it goes off the board yes, just like a Drop Pod. Otherwise no.


There is also the units following it, even if they are troops scoring; what if they're out of synapes range? That all has to do with what you want them to do and how you've built and deployed your army, and the Trygon can be made a Synapse creature.


Do they get to wait until it's safe to come out? Do they count as deep striking, or can they shoot and then assault from the tunnel (if within synapes range)? For a trygon's tunnel, they can shoot or run, but can't assault, so yes in that respect the Hades is better, but between IG vets and DKoK Engineers, nothing is exactly scary in assaults either. Assuming engineers pop out, shoot their shotguns, and assault with gas grenades against an SM tac squad, on average they'll *tie*, and then lose every subsequent round.



The point is that if it's just codex lists you have a general idea of what to expect. If people can start showing up with forgeworld, then why not indie lists (some of which are as good and balanced as forgeworld, sometimes better)? Because FW happens to be a division of GW making GW copyrighted rules at the same location that the normal GW design team is at, with official Citadel standing? We're still talking GW product here.



If people get fighter jets, or heavy bombers without having to ask; then there's a whole new set of rules that a non-forgeworld player will have to know, in addition to the new tactics, strengths and weaknesses of the opponent. If you're talking about Flyers, you're really talking about Apocalypse then, which is a different story. Something like the DKoK Siege Regiment list has no problems working off nothing but the BRB.

[erwos]

Why would you have to plug it for three turns? It says they come in automatically the turn after the drill arrives. That means you know exactly when and where that unit will arrive, and can either clear out to avoid the emerging unit, or sit a tank on the hole, effectively meaning the squad is destroyed as it can't come on.
This isn't true (you misquoted the rule!). Read the FAQ for why. (I actually was the one who brought up this question on Warseer, so you can thank me for it being in the FAQ, I guess.)

I don't think anyone's saying breaching drills are unstoppable killing machines, but they do seem like a huge bargain for 50 points, especially when spammed. It's one thing to buy a drop pod that's essentially useless the turn after it comes down; it's another thing to have a drop pod which kills anything it lands on and can then move around and slaughter stuff for the rest of the game. They are also hell on shooty armies with significant backline assets - which, funnily enough, includes DKoK armies themselves. (I field mine in a standard IG army, when given the chance and permission.)


I'm pretty sure that, unless you're playing Apocalypse, the Hades follows the normal reserve rules. At least that's how I read it's rules. So no different than the Trygon there.
I agree, _but_ the rule is worded unclearly enough that you may have difficulty convincing the other player of this. Some people can be remarkably obtuse when it comes to arguing rules for their advantage. :)

[Old_Paladin]

Stuff...

I think you really need to re-read the drills rules and it's faq.
It's is placed in reserve, but doesn't roll to come on, it always deploys on your second turn, always. Likewise, the unit attached to it doesn't ever have to make a reserve roll, they automatically come on later; the wording is also such that the unit coming out of the hole is not forced to do so if it cannot. So yes, you would be forced to park that tank over the hole for the entire game.

The tactics of the chimera are completely different; but saying they are more survivable is flatout wrong. That chim can be shot at first turn; and some autocannon or loota shots, or a few missiles or lascannons will damage or destroy it; then the soft squad inside can be shot at, even on the first turn. It is impossible to do any damage to the vets deployed by the drill until at least turn three (or turn four if the drill owner is going second).

And this is exactally my point about forgeworld rules. These rules were even free, but you still made a lot of mistakes with them. If its a unit from a book that you didn't want to pay a lot of money for, and wouldn't be seen very often; you have no idea what it is or what it does.


Flyers aren't Apoc. The rules have been around since white dwarf 250 and 251, in the chapter approved VDR rules. They have FOC allocaton; usually fast or heavy. They are made with rules in mind to be included in standard games.
Super-heavies are made for Apoc; as they require a second FOC; and you may only use a single FOC in standard games.


Edit: OK, maybe I'll grant that the drill uses a lot more standard rules then special rules. But still, when it says "deep strikes, using the special rules below," and in the same paragraph says "depolys on the second turn, and the attached units follows on the third turn." You need to break that paragraph up better, or place it in a seperate Apoc only rules section.

[Porty1119]

Ya know, seeing as Marauders are super-heavies, and a Spearhead formation lets you take a super-heavy... :D I could take three Thunderbolts as my HS, with a Marauder and Valkyrie-mounted troops for a purely airborne army!! :D

[Vaktathi]

This isn't true (you misquoted the rule!). Read the FAQ for why. (I actually was the one who brought up this question on Warseer, so you can thank me for it being in the FAQ, I guess.)
Ah ok, missed that, my apologies. Odd ruling, that seems a little derpy that they just get to sit there and wait :p



I think you really need to re-read the drills rules and it's faq.
It's is placed in reserve, but doesn't roll to come on, it always deploys on your second turn, always. Likewise, the unit attached to it doesn't ever have to make a reserve roll, they automatically come on later; the wording is also such that the unit coming out of the hole is not forced to do so if it cannot. So yes, you would be forced to park that tank over the hole for the entire game. I was wrong about the part where you can't just plug up the hole, I missed that yes, however I'm still pretty sure, re-reading the Hades rules *and* the FAQ, that it's only in Apocalypse that you don't make the roll for reserves. At least that's how I read it. It could be up for interpretation, but it really does feel like that's a corollary to the Apocalypose blurb.

Although that said, even if it does come on turn 2 automatically for normal games, that adds even more predictability to the army, you know exactly what is coming in when, and you can look at your army and probably guess what's going to be hit, and then take measures to protect against that like popping smoke, spreading out, etc. And if you're going second and playing reserve denial, then you'll basically catch all those Hades without taking any damage and sitting there with their pants down, and you can position yourself to deal with the upcoming vets/engineers the next turn as they come up into a prepared enemy.




The tactics of the chimera are completely different; but saying they are more survivable is flatout wrong. That chim can be shot at first turn; and some autocannon or loota shots, or a few missiles or lascannons will damage or destroy it; That doesn't make it less survivable, I can hold it in reserve and have it come on and shoot without ever being shot at as well if I wish, and it's going to take those hits much better than a Hades will, and will protect the infantry much better than a Hades will as well. I could even have up to 10 of them outflank (Al'rahem platoon with 5 infantry squads and platoon command, all with chimeras for 6, then a Harker vet squad, then 3 Stormtrooper squads), again coming on without any chance to stop them or hurt the infantry inside.


It is impossible to do any damage to the vets deployed by the drill until at least turn three (or turn four if the drill owner is going second). And the same thing can happen with outflanking Vendettas or reserved chimeras. Also, since the infantry are likely arriving very close to the enemy, and given that they *are* guardsmen, their lifespan probably isn't going to be very long, and their late arrival also means they haven't been doing anything before then.


And this is exactally my point about forgeworld rules. These rules were even free, but you still made a lot of mistakes with them. If its a unit from a book that you didn't want to pay a lot of money for, and wouldn't be seen very often; you have no idea what it is or what it does. I missed one thing that was in the FAQ, true, however the other issue is, if anything, an interpretation issue.

Looking at the GW design studios rules, I don't think you can claim they are any better written. Look at all the issues with the Valkyrie regarding disembarking/contesting/etc, Ork Deffrollas and Dakkaguns (having 3 different entries in the book!), Doom of Malantai (and the Tyranid Codex in general), or the entire Skaven army book. I still don't think even half the Space Marine players around really understand "And they shall know no fear" entirely. I see them routinely regrouping within 6" of an enemy or forgetting that they take no retreat wounds instead of being swept, or that they can move after auto-regrouping, etc.

I think we're being unfair to FW here in that regard. This argument can be applied just as easily to any codex you don't regularly play.


Flyers aren't Apoc. The rules have been around since white dwarf 250 and 251, in the chapter approved VDR rules. They have FOC allocaton; usually fast or heavy. They are made with rules in mind to be included in standard games. I don't know about WD issues or anything unfortunately, I know FW used to have flier rules for normal games, however Apocalypse created a new ruleset for flyers (e.g. they don't come on and move, shoot, and leave all during an opponents turn anymore). Yes there are rules for them in non-apoc games, but you still need rules from the Apocalypse book for them.

[Old_Paladin]

Yes there are rules for them in non-apoc games, but you still need rules from the Apocalypse book for them.

Why?
My whole point is that to use anything thats non-core rules or non-core codexi, you need an opponents permission.
If I have the VDR flyer rules, how is that any less valid then Apoc rules? How can you say that Apoc flyers are fine, but standard games type flyers are somehow illegal?

[Vaktathi]

Why?
My whole point is that to use anything thats non-core rules or non-core codexi, you need an opponents permission.
If I have the VDR flyer rules, how is that any less valid then Apoc rules? How can you say that Apoc flyers are fine, but standard games type flyers are somehow illegal?

The VDR flyer rules are not the same as the Apoc flyer rules, they are very different, and the VDR is a relic from ten+ years ago and from two editions past that most people haven never even known existed and wasn't on anything near the support that FW/Apoc stuff has.

[Old_Paladin]

The VDR flyer rules are not the same as the Apoc flyer rules, they are very different, and the VDR is a relic from ten+ years ago and from two editions past that most people haven never even known existed and wasn't on anything near the support that FW/Apoc stuff has.

That's a lot of assumptions from just your personal views. (and they are a relic of only 6 years ago by the way).
Enough people either have or know about the VDR rules, that they are legal for the Astromoni-con (the largest tournaments in Canada).

It's also good to know how you feel about Dark Eldar, Witchhunter, Daemonhunter and Necron players. How about we just tell them that they aren't allowed to play anymore; because their codexes are relics from almost a decade, and two editions, ago and don't have any Forgeworld or GW support!


The fact is that you can use different rules from different supplements; usually to be used within the game set is was meant for.
In Apoc, you should use the Apoc Flyers.
For normal games you can use the flyer rules that are made with that type of game in mind.
In planetstrike, you should be using the planetstrike deep strike rules; which are different then the rules of other play styles.
In cities of death, template weapon work differently then in other games.

The list of general rules that are applied different depending on the type of game being played is huge; there is nothing that forces you to use the same rule (from a different supplement) for every type of game.

[Atrotos]

What Old Paladin and Vaktathi are discussing is slightly beside the point. As Vaktathi mentioned players are always going to use the rules that suit them best and this goes for codex entries as well. Forgeworld might produce some very competitive units but I'd take a Jetseer Council, Venetta or Vulkan over any of them any day.

If the original question is simply whether or not the FW supplements are suitable for regular games the answer is they are exactly as suitable as anything called a codex. They undergo the same amount of playtesting under the same methods (I had a conversation with the guys at FW over the phone to confirm this).

FW's added transparency makes feedback much more accessible to them hence they released their FAQ's just a couple of weeks after releasing their armylists. They are much more willing to undergo several iterations in the pursuit of balance as noted by changes made over time to the original Imperial Armour Update which altered points costs and special rules. So in a sense they more dedicated to balance than GW is though granted their rules design is far inferior.

40k players tend to have crazy ideas about the value of "official." FW has given ample support to the Inquisition and the Tau both of which desperately need it. Denying players these extra options because they're not official is silly given what I said above about the level of testing that goes into both sources.

[Old_Paladin]

40k players tend to have crazy ideas about the value of "official." Denying players these extra options because they're not official is silly given what I said above about the level of testing that goes into both sources.

I have gotten a little off track; but, my point isn't that they aren't "official", it's just that you cannot expect to be able to walk up to everyone and think that you can just play your forgeworld list, or add forgeworld rules to your army and act like you just brought a normal GW codex.

You said that a vulkan list is more competitive then anything forgeworld does? Well, add in those forgeworld multi-melta razorbacks (a free up-grade) and that competitive list just got even better, for free.
Edit: Looks like the latest update to the IA:2 list made it a twin-linked multi-melta for free anyways; so you don't even need Vulkan, for free twin-linked melta razorbacks.
That imperial guard army is already good; I bet most people would find it easy to upgrade all 10 of their chimeras to autocannons for only 50 points.


These things are fine, if your opponent doesn't mind, or can do it in return; but you shouldn't assume that every feels that forgeworld is the same as a GW codex.

[Atrotos]

You said that a vulkan list is more competitive then anything forgeworld does? Well, add in those forgeworld multi-melta razorbacks (a free up-grade) and that competitive list just got even better, for free.
Edit: Looks like the latest update to the IA:2 list made it a twin-linked multi-melta for free anyways; so you don't even need Vulkan, for free twin-linked melta razorbacks.
That imperial guard army is already good; I bet most people would find it easy to upgrade all 10 of their chimeras to autocannons for only 50 points.

A solid point. The only counter I can offer here is that Multi-melta Razorback and Autocannon Chimeras just make sense to me as a player that knows his way around the fluff. If Lascannons were suddenly introduced to the game right now I'm sure people would have the same reaction. The two examples you've given above might change the game considerably but they're (in my eyes and many others') the natural progression given the options that already exist. I hope this makes sense. It's Forgeworld plugging in the gaps in the codex.

You might then counter by saying "the options make sense, but they're undercosted!" To which I would reply that at least with FW you can expect changes to the rules based on feedback - not so with GW's blunders (Lash for example). So the way to solve the issue is by using the rules and understanding them and their effect on the game. If this is too great get yourself and all your friends on the phone and tell FW they messed up.




These things are fine, if your opponent doesn't mind, or can do it in return; but you shouldn't assume that every feels that forgeworld is the same as a GW codex.

It's a vicious cycle. If you treat it like it's somehow different to the mainstream codecies then it will continue to be different and you will need your opponent's permission. However, if you treat it like it's nothing special it becomes the norm. The moment people start using it without reservations the sooner it gets accepted in tournaments (because people have come to consider it part of the game) the sooner it becomes strange not to use it when you can.

I don't just use forgeworld material I tell every beleaguered Tau or Inquisition or Ork player I can find to look up the rules because there's more out there than just waiting out the decade it takes for your codex to be renewed.

[Vaktathi]

That's a lot of assumptions from just your personal views. (and they are a relic of only 6 years ago by the way).
Enough people either have or know about the VDR rules, that they are legal for the Astromoni-con (the largest tournaments in Canada). I have no idea what the canada gaming scene is like, Canada does not set standards for gaming as a whole anymore than anywhere else does. When were the VDR rules made available? I was almost positive it was early 3E, certainly not 6 years ago when 4E came out. I also have no idea where you'd get them from any sort of GW related resource now (so basically rapidshare/google/fansites/etc). They certainly aren't available in an army or rules book or available to download from GW. Also, IIRC,Jervis very specifically flat out stated that the VDR requires opponents consent within the VDR rules themselves.



It's also good to know how you feel about Dark Eldar, Witchhunter, Daemonhunter and Necron players. How about we just tell them that they aren't allowed to play anymore; because their codexes are relics from almost a decade, and two editions, ago and don't have any Forgeworld or GW support! They're still available for purchase and feature in GW publications. The VDR rules are not.

That said, apparently you haven't read my earlier posts, equating this exact state of such older books with FW stuff, especially DE since they are available online only, not even in stores, why should FW stuff be any different?




In Apoc, you should use the Apoc Flyers.
For normal games you can use the flyer rules that are made with that type of game in mind. The Apoc rules superceded previous rules. You can still use them for normal games, but require the Apocalypse rules. A DKoK siege regiment for instance however requires nothing but the army list and the BRB.



That imperial guard army is already good; I bet most people would find it easy to upgrade all 10 of their chimeras to autocannons for only 50 points. I think you'll find most IG players would not. This particular thing seems to cause hysteria every time it's brought up. The Multilaser is *as good or better* against anything with a T value that isn't 8 or 10, or anything that has a 2+/3+/5+/6+sv or is in cover, and is better at killing AV10 vehicles, as good at damaging AV11 (only slightly worse at destroying), and it's only when you get to AV12 and 13 vehicles that the Autocannon becomes better. So basically, you reduce performance against the vast majority of targets to be a little better at popping a smaller range of units with a little extra range, and increase the units cost by almost 10%. IG already have more than enough access to autocannons, I think you'd find that AC's wouldn't be as popular as is supposed.


I have gotten a little off track; but, my point isn't that they aren't "official", it's just that you cannot expect to be able to walk up to everyone and think that you can just play your forgeworld list, or add forgeworld rules to your army and act like you just brought a normal GW codex. What is "official"? There is no stated GW list of "official" or "standard" units/books/models aside from what has a GW copyright and/or trademark. Codex+BRB is a *convention*, but not a codified or standardized rule.

[scadugenga]

@Old Paladin:

While I agree with many of your points--you're not going to get Vatkathi to change his mind. He has been unwilling to even consider a viewpoint not of his making. You're approaching the endless loop portion of this ride. :)

Unless, of course, you like the exercise of tilting at windmills--if so, by all means, keep going! :D

[Old_Paladin]

When were the VDR rules made available? I was almost positive it was early 3E, certainly not 6 years ago when 4E came out.

Chapter Approved 2004; which had the second run updates, changes and expantions to the rules.

[Renegade]

My point was that if you are using FW lists, you should not be mixing in codex other than where FW say to in the IA. Spearhead is an official update, just as much as the new eldar vehicle is.

I don't really know anything about the US or Canada scene, but IA has been available in GW stores for quite some time. Why play if your only going to do so against half of what GW produces? FW stuff looks far better than normal plastics as well.

As for tournaments, some in the UK allow FW or impose a limit on how much FW can be used, but few ban it completely.

Maybe the rest of the world needs to catch up with the UK game, as this is where it is made.

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

My point was that if you are using FW lists, you should not be mixing in codex other than where FW say to in the IA. Spearhead is an official update, just as much as the new eldar vehicle is.

I don't really know anything about the US or Canada scene, but IA has been available in GW stores for quite some time. Why play if your only going to do so against half of what GW produces? FW stuff looks far better than normal plastics as well.

As for tournaments, some in the UK allow FW or impose a limit on how much FW can be used, but few ban it completely.

Maybe the rest of the world needs to catch up with the UK game, as this is where it is made.

Because everything in this game is optional. If you said "I want to use the titan rules for a 40K game" and Ive NEVER seen a titan on the table, I would get smashed and then never let you do it again. Same goes for the Baneblade rules that are 40K legal. Same goes for the custom lists that they put out.

Sure they look cool, usually they are undercosted or just crap, but if I am unfamiliar with them, I dont HAVE to play you.

lets repeat that

I DONT HAVE TO PLAY YOU.

If you make a convincing, nondouchy argument as to why you should be able to use these rules that cost $50+ bucks to find, and are usually special ordered from england, then I might let you do it once. Then it is incumbant upon YOU to help ME enjoy the game because you are making it so different and weird. Taking offence to people who just dont feel comfortable using things that are NOT commonly seen just makes you look like a jerk. A Jingoistic jerk, at that.

[scadugenga]

Because everything in this game is optional. If you said "I want to use the titan rules for a 40K game" and Ive NEVER seen a titan on the table, I would get smashed and then never let you do it again. Same goes for the Baneblade rules that are 40K legal. Same goes for the custom lists that they put out.

Sure they look cool, usually they are undercosted or just crap, but if I am unfamiliar with them, I dont HAVE to play you.

lets repeat that

I DONT HAVE TO PLAY YOU.

If you make a convincing, nondouchy argument as to why you should be able to use these rules that cost $50+ bucks to find, and are usually special ordered from england, then I might let you do it once. Then it is incumbant upon YOU to help ME enjoy the game because you are making it so different and weird. Taking offence to people who just dont feel comfortable using things that are NOT commonly seen just makes you look like a jerk. A Jingoistic jerk, at that.


This gets +1 just for using jingoistic...correctly. ;)

[Renegade]

Because everything in this game is optional. If you said "I want to use the titan rules for a 40K game" and Ive NEVER seen a titan on the table, I would get smashed and then never let you do it again. Same goes for the Baneblade rules that are 40K legal. Same goes for the custom lists that they put out.

Same can be said about anything that is new or not normally seen.


Sure they look cool, usually they are undercosted or just crap, but if I am unfamiliar with them, I dont HAVE to play you.

lets repeat that

I DONT HAVE TO PLAY YOU.

Never said that anyone has to play against anyone. Being a jerk because something is different or new to the game is still being a jerk. You going to take issues over playing against the next new codex or WD official vehicle or whatever?


If you make a convincing, nondouchy argument as to why you should be able to use these rules that cost $50+ bucks to find, and are usually special ordered from england, then I might let you do it once. Then it is incumbant upon YOU to help ME enjoy the game because you are making it so different and weird. Taking offence to people who just dont feel comfortable using things that are NOT commonly seen just makes you look like a jerk. A Jingoistic jerk, at that.

Not my problem that the Dollar is weak against Sterling, or that you haven't FW where you come from. The game, however, is English. With the US GW moving to new grounds, maybe US gamers should ask for a FW in the US, but it changes nothing, the US is behind the UK in attitude to the game, and how it is played.2000 points is larger than the average game in the UK (normally played at 1500), so one could easily expect something original. It is only courteous to allow a player to look over the rules for your army anyway, so what''s the big deal? I've done that numerous times with my BT anyway, particularly in this edition.

And it is as much up to you as it is to whom you play against to make it an enjoyable game.

Seems like making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Vaktathi]

Because everything in this game is optional. If you said "I want to use the titan rules for a 40K game" and Ive NEVER seen a titan on the table, I would get smashed and then never let you do it again. Same goes for the Baneblade rules that are 40K legal. Same goes for the custom lists that they put out. Everything in this game is optional really. Also, all the stuff you're talking about like Baneblades and Titans are very specifically apocalypse units, and in general have been made far more powerful by GW's hand, *not* FW's. FW's rules for baneblades were *terrible*, and in fact FW has nothing to do with Baneblades anymore as they have cut their production of them in light of the plastic kit and GW's Apocalypse rules for them. Such superheavy units by their very nature cannot be used in normal play even with the old non-apoc rules as they require an additional Force Org chart on top of the normal army. They really are a non-issue for the overwhelmingly vast majority of FW issues.



Sure they look cool, usually they are undercosted or just crap, but if I am unfamiliar with them, I dont HAVE to play you.

lets repeat that

I DONT HAVE TO PLAY YOU.
You don't have to play anyone no matter what they bring. This has nothing to do with FW at all. You are as free to refuse to play an all grot army as a Daemonhunters list, Mech IG, Nob Bikers, or Dark Eldar as you are free to refuse to play against anything from FW.

That said, using this exact same argument of unfamiliarity , are you going to routinely refuse to play against Codex armies you have never played before or new update codex's simply because you are unfamiliar with them?



If you make a convincing, nondouchy argument as to why you should be able to use these rules that cost $50+ bucksand are usually special ordered from england, then I might let you do it once. And with rulebooks now starting to cost $75+ and codex's breaching $30, cost is rapidly becoming neglibible here.

What about the stuff from PDF's available for free from the Forgeworld website like the IA:V Krieg list? Probably 60-70% of FW's stuff is available on the site for free. Unlike say, DE which are only available direct from the GW online store in their entirety.

What's wrong with asking an opponent, who should have their rules on them, to allow you to look them over before a game like any other codex or army list and just get on with it? Unless they are trying to play something that doesn't belong outside of Apocalypse, what's wrong with playing against something like the DKoK siege list that's designed for play entirely within the context of the BRB rules and missions? If you have an acceptable all comers list, you'll have no problems dealing with anything in a list like that, unless one just needs to tailor their list before they play anyone.

Furthermore, do you own and already know and familiarize yourself intimately with every single codex out there? If you don't, then this argument sinks even further.


Then it is incumbant upon YOU to help ME enjoy the game because you are making it so different and weird. Taking offence to people who just dont feel comfortable using things that are NOT commonly seen just makes you look like a jerk. A Jingoistic jerk, at that.
So, I assume then that anyone playing Dark Eldar is going to have to make a federal case to get you to play them because they are so rare, and stores don't even carry them, and you can only order there stuff on line?

Sorry, but this sounds like a horrific double standard, overreaction, and a lot of prudishness when it comes to a tabletop game of plastic army men. All this stuff exists in the 40k universe, why not play it on the table?

All of these arguments are reliant upon a double standard. If you aren't playing something because it's relatively unknown or unaccessible, do you also refuse to play new books that come out, rare armies like Daemonhunters and Dark Eldar, or just any army you haven't played before? There's no practical difference in these cases, none at all.

[Old_Paladin]

stuff

This coming from the guy that threw out the VDR example because it's old and came from a White Dwarf (which you said a lot of people probably don't have);
don't back-talk others with your 'holier than thou' attitude about a double-standard when you yourself have shown one when it suits you.

If forgeworld is a 'no questions aked' set of rules because forgeworld and GW are the same company; then everything in white dwarf should always be taken without question too (and I don't mean the stuff they put on the website or the clear rules addition either; I mean all the other stuff).

But I bet a lot of people would question you if you showed up with Sisters of Battle with Fraternus militia; or the Imperial guard army where all infantry come with ATSKNF or FNP.


There is a significant difference between the core published material (the main rule book and codexes), and secondary products.

[Duke]

Remember to play nicely people, we are talking about toys after all.

Duke (your friendly neighborhood moderator)

[Vaktathi]

This coming from the guy that threw out the VDR example because it's old and came from a White Dwarf (which you said a lot of people probably don't have); I made a distinction because it's quite literally only available 2nd hand, unlike FW stuff which you can buy new or more usually download, and very specifically outright stated it wasn't official within the VDR rules themselves IIRC and that you *must* let your opponent know in advance in Jervis's foreword.

I didn't flat out throw it out, however it's far different than FW's situation, which was my point.

In all honesty, I wouldn't refuse to play against anything from the VDR, however it's not the same thing as FW stuff due to its explicit restrictions stated within the document from what I can recall.



don't back-talk others with your 'holier than thou' attitude about a double-standard when you yourself have shown one when it suits you.see above please.



If forgeworld is a 'no questions aked' set of rules because forgeworld and GW are the same company; then everything in white dwarf should always be taken without question too (and I don't mean the stuff they put on the website or the clear rules addition either; I mean all the other stuff). I agree that WD stuff should be allowed as long as you've got the rules with you and can show me how the stuff works before the game. The VDR however has a passage stating that it's very much not official and had to inform opponents beforehand, and is based on a lot of outdated rules (most probably to that players detriment rather than benefit however), making it a bit different than most things.

[Old_Paladin]

Just like how all current forgeworld books come marked Warhammer 40,000 Expansion?

And since they are all just expansion material, they would need to be talked about with your opponent before hand; otherwise you're saying that it's just as legitimate to have the IG Sentinals be Stompa Hunters, as they are just normal units using the benefits of expansion materials.


Also, you keep talking about how easy it is to get/know forgeworld rules; it's not. They have 3 army lists for download (I can name off at least 4-5 army lists that you'd have to buy the rules for). Out of the dozens (maybe even a hundred), standard game type units, they have free rules for about half a dozen.
So that 60-70% free information is way off; it's more like 10%, but likely much less.
Everything they release for free is an update to older rules (to make sure that the people that bought the books can still use the outdated information).


In responce to the strawman that "if you don't want to play forgeworld, then you shouldn't play against a new (GW) codex, since both are uncommon." I just have to say, say hello to Mr. Internet.
The reason that people will play against a codex army that is just released is because they've probably already read dozens or more pages of what that army will have and be like. We knew what 90% of the new units and tactics and power-combos for Wolves, Nids and Angels over a month before they even came out. Upon release, GW themselves talked about strengths and weaknesses and cool things about the new units and rules; and hundreds of new armies and tactics and questions were on every major site.
Forgeworld isn't like that.
People just don't ask about them as often, you don't see Dreadmob armies being posted or 'rank this DKoK army build', people don't ask counter-tactics against their friends mega-dread with meka-dread combo; and there isn't a huge fanfare upon release that discusses a bunch the new stuff (either within the community or by the production company themselves).

[George Labour]

Figured I'd ask here rather than start a whole new topic since it's similiar. my google fu also did not help at all.

What about using regurlar GW models with forgeworld lists in friendly games or where otherwise allowed? IE, catachans, steel legion, valhallans in place of elysians for a drop troops list. Or Vostroyans instead of Krieg in a siege list.

I was eyeing the elysian list in IA8 and had the realization that my old Steel Legion models would make almost perfect stand ins for regurlar drop troops. BIt of converting on some spare sentinels and the only things I'd need to lay down cash for are some sky talons, and Hardened veterans with shotguns.

I know it's obviously a matter between those I play with and myself, but is anyone here of the mind that it's a bad idea?

[Javin]

Everyone that I have played with (yes even those with IA lists) who have told me what their lists/units can do I have played against. So long as you throughly brief your opponent they will probably play with you. If they do not, find another person. Yes at times people will not play against your all titan/tank/uber units of doom from an unfamiliar book/White Dwarf/imagination. Either find other players or make a new list. Pretty easy really.

One of my favorite matchs was a 3000 point game where my oppenent brought 3 warhounds, a thunder hawk, and two thunderbolts against my Ultramarine list with 4 razorbacks, 3 speeders, 6 bikes and the rest foot.

Remember the first rule of Warhammer and you really can not go wrong.

George, I recommend using proxies to see if you like a new list before massive investing.

[George Labour]

Oh I already have most of it sitting in a couple of chessex cases. SInce I switched from a pure infantry gunline to a mechanized vostroyan list my old steel legion have just been sitting there.

Since they have the heavy weapons and most of the other options elysians use, and resemble WW2 airborne I figured, why not? Except for that niggling thought that you're somehow 'cheating' by not using the awesome FW models to go with their big expensive book.....

[Duke]

Everyone that I have played with (yes even those with IA lists) who have told me what their lists/units can do I have played against. So long as you throughly brief your opponent they will probably play with you. If they do not, find another person. Yes at times people will not play against your all titan/tank/uber units of doom from an unfamiliar book/White Dwarf/imagination. Either find other players or make a new list. Pretty easy really.

One of my favorite matchs was a 3000 point game where my oppenent brought 3 warhounds, a thunder hawk, and two thunderbolts against my Ultramarine list with 4 razorbacks, 3 speeders, 6 bikes and the rest foot.

Remember the first rule of Warhammer and you really can not go wrong.

George, I recommend using proxies to see if you like a new list before massive investing.

Well said.

Duke

[mountaincycle661]

For 150 points I'd rather have the codex vet squad with 3 melta and the forgeworld drill.

-Firstly, its not 150pts. Its 50 pts :-)

For it's price, it's more accurate, timely and cheaper then an orbital bombardment. - Accurate, yes. It does deepstrike and scatter as usual. Timely? Uh...how so? It comes in from reserves just like everybody else. +4 on turn two, +3 on turn three and so on. An orbital bombardment from a space marine master can strike any damn turn he wants (provided he stands still). And doesnt the bombardment come for free on the chapter master?

It makes a mockery of anyone that plays a denied reserves game (as it doesn't rely on dice rolls - Yes, actually it does. Have you read the rules for them? I mean, carefully?

an most armies are going to be hardpressed to devote anything to stopping that 100 point vet squad from coming (you'd have to plug the hole for 3+ turns, it doesn't even use normal deep strike, the vets are alot harder to contain). Even if you cant stop it (which you can by parking a tank on top of the hole) a ten man squad of vets are going to do the same damage popping out of a hole and shooting you as they would popping out of a chimera and shooting you! And then, like always, the veterans die. Because thats how they roll.

Oh, and there is ZERO things you can do to stop it. You cannot slow down it's arrival, you cannot damage it before it deploys it's massive hit and you cannot damage the squad at all until it's on the field (and the turn it shows up, they get all their full actions, so its better then normal deep strike). - How about putting your army in reserve? Then, when the drills show up, they dont have prime targets to chew up. Then, your reserves kill them in turn.


You say that this tactic is useless because the trygon is like this and no-one uses one anymore. Remind me again how much the trygon costs? More then 50 points? Does it do a strength 10, AP: 1, melta hit that destroys terrain? Does it always come of the same turn and you can build a solid stratagy around it, or does it come on randomly using pretty normal deepstrike rules? IT DOES COME IN USING REGULAR DEEP STRIKE RULES. it does NOT come in on a set turn. Not much in the game does, really.

Can it be destroyed with a bad scatter [I honestly don't know its rules]? Clearly. The trygons/mawlocs hit things they scatter over and move stuff out of the way. Just like the drill.

There is also the units following it, even if they are troops scoring; what if they're out of synapes range? Do they get to wait until it's safe to come out? Do they count as deep striking, or can they shoot and then assault from the tunnel (if within synapes range)?

The point is that if it's just codex lists you have a general idea of what to expect. If people can start showing up with forgeworld, then why not indie lists (some of which are as good and balanced as forgeworld, sometimes better)? Because they're not GW official rules. You know...like forgeworld rules are.

If people get fighter jets, or heavy bombers without having to ask; then there's a whole new set of rules that a non-forgeworld player will have to know, in addition to the new tactics, strengths and weaknesses of the opponent. - Flyers have been moved to apocalypse only. I think people are misunderstanding the idea here. You can use forgeworld rules in your normal games of 40k if the forgeworld rules say so. For example, blood slaughterers of khorne can be taken in a CSM army that has at least 1 unit of khorne berserkers. Its that simple. However, you cant take flyers or super heavies because those rules are for the apocalypse games only. And yes, you just might actually have to learn how to fight a new unit! God forbid the horizons expand to include new units to fight against. And as long as the rules are present, and you understand what it is your fighting against, who cares? Its the same with a new codex or new unit you've never played against. "Hey buddy, whats the deal with this librarian dreadnaught?" says the player whos never played against Blood Angels. "Oh, well, its X-Y-Z", says the proper opponent. "right-o then. Lets play", says the new opponent. Now replace "librarian dreadnaught" with "forgeworld model" and off you go.

They simply need to ask ahead of time if forgeworld is alright; that way people can either say "sure, that armoured company with no scoring units is fun," or "NO! I'm not playing against your vet/drill list with that strength D weapon tank; stick the guard codex, like everyone else that doesn't have an extra $500 laying around." - Sure! lets all stagnate and let the game get boring. I love playing against the same damn units day after day.

"You there! yes, you, enthusiastic modeler and painter guy! Stop buying those gorgeous and fun models and play like the rest of us!" - angry gamer with stick up ***

"but...why? I really like this model. its neat and adds a fantastic touch to this army i love so dearly!" - enthusiastic modeler and painter guy.

"NO! No, i say! Im not familiar with your sorcerous forgeworld rules! Therefore, HERESY! Its not allowed! bwahaha!" - angry gamer with stick up ***

"Well. In that case, i just wont play any games against you. Instead, I'll play against this other guy who is looking for a fun and interesting new challenge to test his army on." enthusiastic modeler and painter guy

"HA! .... I mean....Oh. *sad face*" - angry gamer with stick up ***

Also, I agree WHOLE HEARTEDLY with everything vaktathi has said. He makes excellent points on the validity of forgeworld and you would be hard pressed to find fault in his reasoning. Kudos to you, sir.

[Old_Paladin]

Blah...

Welcome to a few pages ago, where we already discussed all this! And bravo on missing the point of half the things.

If you bothered to read ANY of the replies, you'll have seen my reasoning was based on the very poor wording by forgeworld; and I came to agree that the drill isn't as ultra-powerful in normal games (if you do not use the always on turn two/turn three rules; which some poeple are going to fight for).

Also, vet squad 100 points, drill 50 points... 100+50 = 150.


And what part of "Simply ask ahead of time" did you not understand (which has always been my underlying point)? It could be the day before, it could be a few minutes before. Most people will say yes; I'd personally probably never say no.

Yes, nothing says stagnation like say, "The dread in my Black Templar Army is a ven. Chaplain Dread, mind if I use it?" "Nope, it's fine / Mind if it just counts as a cool looking normal ven dread for this game and we talk about the forgeworld rules about it at the end, so you can use it in the next game?" Talking to people, *gasp* why would you try to do that.
The point is that you can never assume. Never expect to be able just plop down a Blood Slaughterer and expect that people aren't going to ask questions, and maybe even refuse it once and awhile if you're trying to treat it like you have every right to have it there with no questions asked.

[the jeske]

Talking to people, *gasp* why would you try to do that.
takes away time from gaming and clock is ticking on the paid table and when you get in to what is legal , what is not , read the FW rules , do the math for how it will work on the terrain/table your playing on you may not get a second game with in the 1 hour paid[aka wasted money]. Playing with core rules and the tournament rulings for given country/city etc makes it faster and less problematic.



Remember the first rule of Warhammer and you really can not go wrong.
how does maximum of kills for minimum of shots help here , because am missing something ?

[Old_Paladin]

takes away time from gaming and clock is ticking on the paid table and when you get in to what is legal , what is not , read the FW rules , do the math for how it will work on the terrain/table your playing on you may not get a second game with in the 1 hour paid[aka wasted money]. Playing with core rules and the tournament rulings for given country/city etc makes it faster and less problematic.
Where do you play? I've never heard about people having to pay to play, nor have I heard about having common city/state/country rulings (accept tournies). Tournaments are a non-issue to this subject. They would have pre-posted that the event will either be forgeworld or non-forgeworld legal; asking whether forgeworld is legal/acceptable really only comes down to pickup games.
And pay by the hour! How fast do you play? Most game types will take at least an hour and a half to two hours to finish; and you want to fit a second game into that single hour.


how does maximum of kills for minimum of shots help here , because am missing something ?
The first rules is: Always have fun.



Either you're trollin', or you play in an area that has a very unique view of the game.

[sangrail777]

It's by permission only but anyone who brings it to my table has my permission without asking.
It's a war game jeez play an unexpected army and take your balanced list and shove them up your **S! LOL!;)

[the jeske]

Most game types will take at least an hour and a half to two hours to finish; and you want to fit a second game into that single hour.
8 min per round till 1750. yes I want to fit the start of the second game in to the first hour this means in the second I can play 2 WM or go for a smoke without the game unfinshed . nothing makes a game more craptastic then going 5 min in to the second hour with first game unfinished and having to pay for the table [aside for maybe the same thing happening when you have to leave and paying for 1 hour of play when you actualy play 5 min].


I've never heard about people having to pay to play
shops- pay for tables. tournaments - pay for tables. clubs as rare as they are - pay for tables or fee per month which more or less means pay for tables.


nor have I heard about having common city/state/country rulings
aha so you sit down before every fight and go through every rules query that may come up , probably including GW FAQ not being actualy official. most [ as in almost all. i think I played less then 10 games that didnt use the rules packs for last championships ]of all our games played use either the championship FAQ with small changes[which more or less you know about as everyone knows about "the guys that use something different then the championship rules pack"].



They would have pre-posted that the event will either be forgeworld or non-forgeworld legal; asking whether forgeworld is legal/acceptable really only comes down to pickup games
wont argue with that . outside of UK FW stuff is almost never legal for tournaments and 99% of times people say no to the rules. not just because they dont know them or because some stuff may be unbalanaced , but because the number of options for some armies is realy unbalanced [yes some people do not play IG or SM].

[pgmason]

Jeske - if I recall correctly you're in Russia, yes? From your posts on B&C it seems that your country has a very different approach to games than pretty much anywhere else. I understand you typically play for fairly substantial sums of money. In the rest of the world, shops don't usually charge for use of tables unless its for tournaments etc, (and tournament prizes are hardly ever cash based). I've never heard of anywhere charging by the hour.

I get the impression that your community doesn't really do the 'casual' gaming style that is what is more common elsewhere. Any moment not spent actively competing (or practicing for competition) is a moment wasted. I can see how FW units would add extra complexity to that situation, but you must understand that your experiences will be very different from the norms experienced by most other players.