Multipsychers-mark of tzeentch

[MarkAutarch]

I am a bit confused about the mark of tzeentch and using multiple psychic abilities per turn. I realize no psyched can use the same shooting psychic attack twice, but in the chaos marine FAQ, under ahriman's rules, gw seems to imply that a psycher with MoTz can reuse the same power in a single turn. The example is multiple 'gift of chaos' but it also states that warptime can be repeated. The FAQ foolishly says this is pointless, but it is not: if I roll an 11 for my first psychic power and fail to activate warptime, then I would try again and use warptime as my second psychic power(and likely pass).

I got this concept from tactics forums from multiple websites(not this one,I'm new here) so I didn't think it was a big deal and was a widely accepted strategy. However, a friend who I played a game with last Friday said that he had never heard of anyone ever in his 15+ years veteranship of Warhammer and had never seen it done at a grand tournament.

So what is the consensous? Can my daemon prince with the MoTz use warptime twice even if the first attempt fails?
-mark

[DarkLink]

Absolutely. You kinda answered your own question looking up the relevant rules and FAQ stuff. Just because you're friend has never heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't work. It means he doesn't understand the rules as well as he thinks he does.

[Culven]

The issue typically stems from the "may use two psychic powers" rule and how players interpret that phrase. Some believe that the model is allowed to cast up to two powers a turn, and they can be the same power. Others interpret it as the model may cast two powers, but one power twice is not the the same as two powers. It just depends upon the players, though we finally started to get some FAQs with examples where GW implies that they interpret it as being able to use the same power twice. This is a fairly new precedent and some players haven't implemented it as a general rule.

[DarkLink]

Actually, I'm pretty sure somewhere it is explicitly stated that you can use a single power multiple times, with the exception of shooting powers. And if you can use a power multiple times, that means that you may attempt that power again if you failed the first time.

[Connjurus]

Yup, multiple powers of the same kind as long as they're not the same shooting power - I've even HAD to reroll a Warptime once or twice in my Daemon Prince's illustrious career. Not Ahriman, though. He's always been lucky for me. Never even gotten Perils of the Warp...but nothing is as fun as Warptime/Winds of Chaos/Charge with Force Weapon. :)

[mstingray]

I usually play as you can cast any two (or three in ahriman's case) psychic powers per turn even the same one twice but you can only ever attempt to cast one psychic shooting attack. Using the spawn powers on the eldar seer coucil is fun.:D

[aztex3400]

Ok, so after reading all of the relevant powers, looking through tons of material, dodging the wife, and talking to a few veteren players (those that I know that have gone to a few recent GTs and placed well in both them and 'Ardboys).
My only concern is that most of the powers say at the begining of something....phase, turn, etc. Yes , you may use the same power multiple times in the turn, but you must declare that you are going to use power multiple times and declare any targets before the dice are rolled.
My reasoning behind this are two fold:

1. Once dice are droped, it is no longer the beginning of the turn. That means one must declare all beginnig of the turn psychic abilities, even from multiple sources.

2. There are several precedents for declaring targets before dice are rolled. A few come to mind quickly: Space Wolf Long Fangs, Tau with certain wargear. Now the machine spirit from a land raider is a different issue, but one that supports my reasoning. It is a single model that allows one to target multiple units, yet one must declare what it is targeting before dice are dropped.

Just my thoughts on the subject

[Connjurus]

I usually play as you can cast any two (or three in ahriman's case) psychic powers per turn even the same one twice but you can only ever attempt to cast one psychic shooting attack. Using the spawn powers on the eldar seer coucil is fun.:D

It says in Ahriman's rules that he may cast more than one psychic shooting attack per turn, as long as it is not the SAME psychic shooting attack. :)

[SeattleDV8]

It says in Ahriman's rules that he may cast more than one psychic shooting attack per turn, as long as it is not the SAME psychic shooting attack. :)

Wouldn't matter as Ahriman can only 'shoot' once in his turn.
Nothing in his rules allow him extra shooting attacks.
Now if he was a MC with more than one shooting attack you would be correct.

[Connjurus]

Wouldn't matter as Ahriman can only 'shoot' once in his turn.
Nothing in his rules allow him extra shooting attacks.
Now if he was a MC with more than one shooting attack you would be correct.

"The Black Staff of Ahriman: The Black Staff is a potent focus of psychic energy. It counts as a force weapon, and in addition it allows Ahriman to make up to three psychic tests in the same turn (one of these may be to use the special ability of his force weapon). It even allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon in the same shooting phase (he must target the same unit with all of them, however)."

According to that rule, he may. :) Page 51 of the Chaos Space Marines codex.

[mountaincycle661]

Ok, hopefully i can put this issue to bed. As a long time thousand sons player and fan of all things psyker, here it goes:

psykers can use 1 power per turn, unless their rules entry says otherwise. Lots of other psykers out there can use two powers a turn due to upgrades and whatnot. The ruling in the big red book says that nobody can use the same power more than once. Also, in general, no model may make more than one shooting attack (like shooting with your bolt pistol AND your bolter - thats a no-go). This certainly applies to most psyker powers because a good portion of them count as shooting attacks.

Models with the mark of tzeentch can use up to two powers per PLAYER turn (meaning two powers at the top of the turn, and 2 powers at the bottom of the turn as well). Ahrimans black staff allows him to use THREE powers per turn. It even allows him to use the same power more than once - a special exception to the normal rules. However, it does NOT allow him to use more than one SHOOTING power per turn. So:

Ahriman uses - warptime, wind of chaos, force weapon - GOOD (only 1 shooting attack in there)
Ahriman uses - Warptime, gift of chaos, wind of chaos - GOOD (only 1 shooting attack in there)
Ahriman uses - warptime, fails the psychic test, rolls for warptime again and gets it, then uses a force wpn GOOD
Ahriman uses - warptime, doombolt, wind of chaos - NOT GOOD (2 shooting attacks in there)

hopefully that sheds some light on the situation. This is also why, as a thousand sons player, i just f*cking hate ahriman. no eternal warrior and all these damn restrictions on his psychic prowess. If i had it my way, he could use whatever he damn well pleases and MUCH as he damn well pleases!

Oh yeah, and i want my old codex back where I didnt have to pass psychic checks :cool:

[Connjurus]

Ok, hopefully i can put this issue to bed. As a long time thousand sons player and fan of all things psyker, here it goes:

psykers can use 1 power per turn, unless their rules entry says otherwise. Lots of other psykers out there can use two powers a turn due to upgrades and whatnot. The ruling in the big red book says that nobody can use the same power more than once. Also, in general, no model may make more than one shooting attack (like shooting with your bolt pistol AND your bolter - thats a no-go). This certainly applies to most psyker powers because a good portion of them count as shooting attacks.

Models with the mark of tzeentch can use up to two powers per PLAYER turn (meaning two powers at the top of the turn, and 2 powers at the bottom of the turn as well). Ahrimans black staff allows him to use THREE powers per turn. It even allows him to use the same power more than once - a special exception to the normal rules. However, it does NOT allow him to use more than one SHOOTING power per turn. So:

Ahriman uses - warptime, wind of chaos, force weapon - GOOD (only 1 shooting attack in there)
Ahriman uses - Warptime, gift of chaos, wind of chaos - GOOD (only 1 shooting attack in there)
Ahriman uses - warptime, fails the psychic test, rolls for warptime again and gets it, then uses a force wpn GOOD
Ahriman uses - warptime, doombolt, wind of chaos - NOT GOOD (2 shooting attacks in there)

hopefully that sheds some light on the situation. This is also why, as a thousand sons player, i just f*cking hate ahriman. no eternal warrior and all these damn restrictions on his psychic prowess. If i had it my way, he could use whatever he damn well pleases and MUCH as he damn well pleases!

Oh yeah, and i want my old codex back where I didnt have to pass psychic checks :cool:

Read my post and you'll see how he can use two shooting attacks, or even three.

[DarkLink]

I usually play as you can cast any two (or three in ahriman's case) psychic powers per turn even the same one twice but you can only ever attempt to cast one psychic shooting attack. Using the spawn powers on the eldar seer coucil is fun.:D

Well, if you can use the same power twice, it's crystal clear that you can attempt the same power twice. There's no reason not to think that, really.

[DarkLink]

Ahriman uses - warptime, doombolt, wind of chaos - NOT GOOD (2 shooting attacks in there)



You can use more than one shooting powers, so long as 1) the user can shoot two weapons and 2) they are two different shooting powers.


This is what an illegal attempt would look like;
Ahriman uses - warptime, doombolt, doombolt

[Connjurus]

You can use more than one shooting powers, so long as 1) the user can shoot two weapons and 2) they are two different shooting powers.


This is what an illegal attempt would look like;
Ahriman uses - warptime, doombolt, doombolt

Exactly. That's why I use him - it's awesome to picture Ahriman walking through the field of battle, blaring away with spells in all directions.

A favorite tactic of mine for him though is to stick him and four Terminators in a land-raider, run around the field of battle, and cast Gift of Chaos on people since you don't need LoS for it, so you measure from the hull of the vehicle.

It's pretty freaking sweet.

[MarkAutarch]

Ok, so what I am hearing is that a tzeentch psycher can reuse a psychic power if he fails it the first time. Is that what most everyone agrees?

Mountaincycle- what's the page number for the rule about psychers not reusing non-shooting psychic powers? I know the eldar specifically state it in their codex, but I'm not finding that rule in other locations.
I agree that Ahriman should be awesome, but isn't because of his restrictions. But we aren't really talking about ahriman(because no one uses him).

But there is the question as to whether the second use of a power needs to be decided before the first psychic test is made, or if the decison can be made after the first psychic test is made.

Since people keep using examples:
"my daemon prince will use warptime-I roll an 11, oops. My deamon prince will use his extra psychic ability and use warptime- I rolled a 5, success. Now I have used two psychic powers and may no longer shoot wind of chaos for this turn."
vs.
"I need warptime to work so I will declare that I am using it twice this turn. First roll , 7, success. But I must use warptime again because I already declared that I would. Second test: roll an 8, success, but worthlessly so."

-mark