Going over on points

[Captain Kellen]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've been playing for awhile now but can't remember the rule about going over on points or if one exists.

I'm over on a list by one point.

1. Is this allowed?

2. Is this allowed in tournements?

thanks,

CK

[blackarmchair]

It's generally okay in a friendly game, just check with your opponent he/she should be fine with one or two points.

In a tournament setting however it is strictly off-limits. The points limit is absolute and cannot be violated.

[BuFFo]

1. Is this allowed?

No.


2. Is this allowed in tournements?

No.

[chromedog]

1. Depends on the players. Some are easygoing, others not so much.

I can be either. If you act like a dick during a 'friendly' game, you ain't getting squat. If you're a nice guy, I'll probably cut you some slack.

2. Not in my experience.

[AbusePuppy]

Why have a points limit if you're allowed to go over it? (In a tournament setting, I mean; in a friendly game it's more of a guideline than anything and you often end up cobbling a force together because you didn't bring absolutely every model in your entire collection.)

[Gir]

My gaming group allows a 1% tollerance on the groups that the game isn't perfectally banalced to start with. We still don't allow people just to take extra stuff at the end to fill that extra 1% though.

[Captain Kellen]

Thank you all for the replies. It was one of those 'brain-fart' moments at 2am and needed some help with it. I'll go back to the drawing baord,

thank you all again,

CK

[Lykum]

This is why we set a 1501 points limit on our games.

[Nabterayl]

We set a tolerance of 4 points over whatever the specified point limit is, on the theory that if you were 5 points over an opponent who came in at the specified point level could probably afford another upgrade. But no, there isn't any official allowance for going over in the rules.

[lobster-overlord]

We also used to use the 1% tolerance. But then we decided to start making our tournaments odd on their numbers. Our first tourney after that was 1786 points, rather than 1750, which allowed for a 36 point overage.

[BuFFo]

Going over the point limit never made sense to me.

If you are going to play 1750, then play 1750. What is it with this 1786 nonsense? I don't understand it. What if a player goes to 1789? Do we give him leeway on top of leeway? Get what I am saying?

I make my army 1500. My opponent goes 1505. Good, he went 5 points over. I make my army 1510. I am now 'fairly' 5 points over him. Where does it end?

Don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY understand about friendly games blah blah blah. The OP asked about if it is against the rules, and yes, going over a LIMIT is against the rules.

To set a limit of 1501 or 1505 makes NO sense!! That is a limit just like 1500 is a limit!!! I fail to see the logic here.

Just don't go over the limit.

[Gotthammer]

Adeptus Titanicus had a rule for going over points - you could do it but there was a corespondingly higher risk of loosing a unit the more you overspent.

Overspend 1-20 points - 1 in 6 you loose a Titan
Overspend 21-40 points - 2 in 6 etc etc.
It capped off at 70 points, and Titans cost ~600-1100pts each for scale.

So you could risk it, but if it went against you you'd end up with less by a fair bit.

[TSINI]

I'm with buffo in this one, whats the point in imposing a limit if you have an "acceptable over run" - why not just set the limit a little higher in this case...

Yeah in friendly games its acceptable to go over a little, for example my platoon commander with a bolt pistol makes an ugly 2 point upgrade stick out like a sore thumb in my nicely rounded #0 and #5 figures, and i'm damned if i'm gonna chop it off to give him a laspistol (i use metal commissars as commanders)

so the odd 2 points isn't a concern

HOWEVER

with 25 points over I can buy a cyclops demo tank - which is a whole extra battle tank shot. so obviously the line has to be drawn

and in tournaments, I always take the 3 point hit, I either take another commander model with a laspistol and no bolt pistol to make the points nice and round, or i just come in 3 points under. its no biggy. but no way would i ever take even these 2 points over in a tourney/competition/slightly competitive scenario.

a limit is a limit.

[addamsfamily36]

personally, i allow a slight tolerance on points.

for example i would let 2003pts slide in 2000pts. my reasons?

say i write an army list thats 1998 points. i play an opponenet who has 2000 pts on the dot.

ok i have nothing i can buy for 2pts (for example no items exists etc). even if i rearranged my list i would either be way over or even more down.

Now we all love it when we get a list that works out at dead on 2000pts or whatever your target points game may be.

BUT

that doesn't always happen

so people are more than willing to allow someone to play 2 points under vs them. yet when that person finds themselves 2 points over, reversing the scenario its not ok?

yes i get the fact they have exceeded the points limit by 2 points or 3 etc, but disallowing them, would be outplaying them by the same amount, even though they might have tried everythign within a boook to make a round figure. This happens more with the older books which have odd points costs like 12, and 3 etc all of which when added with 5's creates end numbers like 7 and 8.

does anyone understand what i'm trying to say?

if not then nevermind lol :)

[Lykum]

To set a limit of 1501 or 1505 makes NO sense!! That is a limit just like 1500 is a limit!!! I fail to see the logic here.

Both limits are equally arbitrary (plus or minus 5 pts) and equally logical. As long as both players agree before they make their lists none of it really matters. Why not a 1234 pt limit? I'll tell you why, because that is the combo to my luggage.

[artemi]

Just remember one thing though. In friendly games, the guy who went 1 point over only won because of that single point. And if he looses, then even 'cheating' didn't help him... :cool:

[BuFFo]

Both limits are equally arbitrary (plus or minus 5 pts) and equally logical. As long as both players agree before they make their lists none of it really matters. Why not a 1234 pt limit? I'll tell you why, because that is the combo to my luggage.

You are missing my point.

If you made a 1234 point army, I would show up with a 1239 point army, and it would be okay, since we are friendly. Now that I am 1239 points, and it was okay for me to go 5 points over your army, what is stopping you form claiming fairness, and making your army 1244 points, being 5 poitns over mine? Then I make my army 1249 points.... It never ends.

Why is it arbitrarily okay for one person to go 'over' the limit? Why not the other player? If both players have 1502 and 1504 point armies respectively, since they both went over the limit, why not go higher? I mean, the real army size limit is 1504 points here, but since it is okay to be higher than the limit in friendly games, why not squeeze in another grenade, making your army 1506? Then the other players wants to play fair, and adds an extra model, making him go 1510.

Basically, there is no point limit as long both players agree to play each other with house rules, but the OP asked about the ruling on this, and as far as 40k is concerned, 1500 points means 0 - 1500 point sized armies.

[DarkLink]

Both limits are equally arbitrary (plus or minus 5 pts) and equally logical. As long as both players agree before they make their lists none of it really matters. Why not a 1234 pt limit? I'll tell you why, because that is the combo to my luggage.

It's about sticking to the arbitrary limit, not what that limit is.

[Lerra]

I'll always build my list below the limit, even for casual games. It's an additional challenge to tweak the list to come in under the required point value, and I have fun fiddling with lists. Plus, going 1 point over would make me feel OCD, like something was out of place.

[Culven]

You are missing my point.
I think you are missing the point of some of the others who are using 1505 point limits or (agreed points +1%) or whatnot. They aren't allowing overages with no limit, instead, they have accepted that there are times when a few more points could allow a player to select something that they would rather include than a bolt pistol or melta bomb. So, they set their points limits to 1505 or whatever. So, the 1502 and 1504 armies would still be below the agreed limit. In the end, players can set any points limit they like, and provided that neither player goes over, there wouldn't be a problem, even if the points limit has a built-in leeway when compared to "standard" points limits or it is just completely random. I haven't seen anyone actually state that they have no hard limits, which would lead to the escalation that you feel would result. Most seem to have a hard limit, but it may not coincide with the agreed points limit.

In the end, having a hard limit of X points over the agreed points limit is about the same as making the agreed points limit the hard limit, and this is the official rule, but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with essentially making the points limit 1505 points.

[BuFFo]

I think you are missing the point of some of the others who are using 1505 point limits or (agreed points +1%) or whatnot. They aren't allowing overages with no limit, instead, they have accepted that there are times when a few more points could allow a player to select something that they would rather include than a bolt pistol or melta bomb. So, they set their points limits to 1505 or whatever. So, the 1502 and 1504 armies would still be below the agreed limit. In the end, players can set any points limit they like, and provided that neither player goes over, there wouldn't be a problem, even if the points limit has a built-in leeway when compared to "standard" points limits or it is just completely random. I haven't seen anyone actually state that they have no hard limits, which would lead to the escalation that you feel would result. Most seem to have a hard limit, but it may not coincide with the agreed points limit.

In the end, having a hard limit of X points over the agreed points limit is about the same as making the agreed points limit the hard limit, and this is the official rule, but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with essentially making the points limit 1505 points.

I am not missing anyone's point.

I have played many games where people go over on points, and I tell them to remove something to make the points, and they do. That is why it is called a limit.

It is not a hard thing to do at all. I know people want to shove an extra grenade in somewhere, but oh well, don't go over the agreed point limit.

Keep in mind that the OP asked a specific question, which I already answered twice. He didn't ask if it was okay in friendly games to go over an agreed point limit. He asked what the rules say in this event.

[Culven]

I have played many games where people go over on points, and I tell them to remove something to make the points, and they do. That is why it is called a limit.
It is not a hard thing to do at all. I know people want to shove an extra grenade in somewhere, but oh well, don't go over the agreed point limit.
That is fine, but why decry the points limits that others choose to use? Most of the posters you were commenting on seem to have a rule which defines the point limit as slightly more than the standard point levels, but they do have a limit. This allows for a little leeway, but it doesn't allow for the rampant excalation that you claim it would. Now, I agree that a points limit of 1505 points really isn't any different than a limit of 1500 points in that a player is not allowed to go over it, and it is typically easier to find a pick-up game at 1500 point than 1505, but in the end, it is up to the players to decide which points limit they want to use. I have even played games where I simply asked my opponent how many point they could field and used that as my points limit as well. It was a completely random points total, but it allow my opponent to play with what they had and we were both building to the agreed points total. Both of which are well within the rules.

Keep in mind that the OP asked a specific question, which I already answered twice. He didn't ask if it was okay in friendly games to go over an agreed point limit. He asked what the rules say in this event.
Yes, the rules tell us to not go over the agreed points limit. However, some groups seem to use (X points + Y points) as their agreed points limit. So, a "1500 point game" may actually use a point limit of 1505 points. This is perfectly legal, and the players are abiding by their group's point limit.

[DarkLink]

Ironically, I think Culven is the one missing Buffo's point, not the other way around.

Here's what Buffo is saying; Pick a points limit, and stick to it. Don't go over it. At all. You picked that limit, and agreed that neither player would go over that limit. Thus, don't go over the limit, because you agreed not to.

It doesn't matter what that limit is. You can agree to have a limit of 1534pts, or 2348pts, or whatever you feel like. The point is, once you've agreed you won't go over that point limit then don't go over it.

[Culven]

I understand what BuFFo is saying. I was just trying to point out that most of the posters saying that they allow a specific amount over the agreed points total are actually agreeing to a slightly higher points level. In their groups, the normal points limit which players are not allowed to exceed is the agreed points limit + X points or percent. So, they may agree to 1500, 1750, 2000 points, but the unspoken agreement is actually 1505, 1755, 2005, or whatever. So, they do seem to have a hard limit to what they would allow, and thus, the escalation that BuFFo is convinced would result never happens.

However, I also agree with BuFFo that one may as well just play with lists equal to or less than the agreed points limit and disregard the +X. The end result is still going to be that players need to make selections that don't go over the agreed to points limit regardless of whether an unspoken leeway is the norm for the group. I just didn't see any reason to berate those who play with the +X factor in any form (group house rule, unspoken agreement, random point limit, and so on).

[Jwolf]

Going over on points is like moving a little bit extra. If you're fine with fudging that extra 1/8th of an inch, then going over a few points is cool, too.

I don't care if you're over 100 points in a casual, or move your Rhinos 13". Heck, if you want to do either in a tournament, I'll point it out to you, but in the end, I'd rather lose than fight about you wanting to have a little more of the cake.

[addamsfamily36]

What interests me is this:

say i come along with a 1496 point army and my opponent has dead on 1500. Would i dare ask that person to drop his army by 4 points? HELL NO

however

i might not be able to get that 4 points from anywhere. (read my earlier post for more details on that)

so as it stands my opponent has a 4 point advantage.

I'm not going to complain as its only 4 points. we are both in the 1500 point limit etc etc.

but as soon as someone goes over by the same amount of points say to 1504, its completely unfair......?

yes they have gone over the limit but the point difference is the same now just not in your favor for instance.

[BuFFo]

What interests me is this:

say i come along with a 1496 point army and my opponent has dead on 1500. Would i dare ask that person to drop his army by 4 points? HELL NO

however

i might not be able to get that 4 points from anywhere. (read my earlier post for more details on that)

so as it stands my opponent has a 4 point advantage.

I'm not going to complain as its only 4 points. we are both in the 1500 point limit etc etc.

but as soon as someone goes over by the same amount of points say to 1504, its completely unfair......?

yes they have gone over the limit but the point difference is the same now just not in your favor for instance.

Yes, this is exactly how the game is played. You can be under your points as much as you want. You just can't go over.

As a Dark Eldar player, I used an old codex with items that cost 2 points. My armies are always 1498, 1746, 2497, etc... I can never meet the limit.

If you can only have 1496, and your opponent has 1500 on the nose, your opponent is NOT over you by 4 points. You are UNDER him by 4 points. Get me?

[Gir]

You can arge this all you want, but the fact remains that unfortunatly points from codex to codex are not equal.

[BuFFo]

You can arge this all you want, but the fact remains that unfortunatly points from codex to codex are not equal.

I don't think anyone in this thread has argued this?

[Gir]

I don't think anyone in this thread has argued this?

Anyone arguing that going over points gives an unfair advantage technically is.

[addamsfamily36]

Yes, this is exactly how the game is played. You can be under your points as much as you want. You just can't go over.

As a Dark Eldar player, I used an old codex with items that cost 2 points. My armies are always 1498, 1746, 2497, etc... I can never meet the limit.

If you can only have 1496, and your opponent has 1500 on the nose, your opponent is NOT over you by 4 points. You are UNDER him by 4 points. Get me?

Gir, is sort of describing what im trying to say.

some of the older codex's and the even older codex's (as you exampled dark eldar) always seem to fall into that 1498 category etc. sometimes you get lucky and its bang on 1500 but thats less likely, especially when compared to modern codex's especially the marine codex's where a lot of entries if not all are in multiples of 5.

so in a way (albeit, and obscure way) 8 times out of 10 you'll always be at that 2-4 point disadvantage. which is fine because both players have played within the rules, but do you see my point?

a player who goes over by 3 points for example he had 1497

brought a 6 point item or something to make it 1503

now has that same point advantage that say a 1500 marine army had over him before.

but as you say where does it stop? Unfortunately until gamesworkshop update things like (12 point exarch;s) etc, there will always bee odd army totals in some cases.

i jsut think that the small leeway allows both players to reach the 1500, and spill a little over. atleast that way both are fighting at the full 1500 points. but i agree going over by large amounts or continuing to go over is stupid.

[BuFFo]

Anyone arguing that going over points gives an unfair advantage technically is.

You were talking about point costs between codices not being even. This isn't what this thread is about. So what if a Marine is 15 points and an Ork is 6 points, I don't think you'll ever have all codices having all aspects of them being equal to each other.

Anyway...

If Bob is at 1500 points and Joe is at 1498, no one is over on points.

[BuFFo]

Gir, is sort of describing what im trying to say.

some of the older codex's and the even older codex's (as you exampled dark eldar) always seem to fall into that 1498 category etc. sometimes you get lucky and its bang on 1500 but thats less likely, especially when compared to modern codex's especially the marine codex's where a lot of entries if not all are in multiples of 5.

so in a way (albeit, and obscure way) 8 times out of 10 you'll always be at that 2-4 point disadvantage. which is fine because both players have played within the rules, but do you see my point?

a player who goes over by 3 points for example he had 1497

brought a 6 point item or something to make it 1503

now has that same point advantage that say a 1500 marine army had over him before.

but as you say where does it stop? Unfortunately until gamesworkshop update things like (12 point exarch;s) etc, there will always bee odd army totals in some cases.

i jsut think that the small leeway allows both players to reach the 1500, and spill a little over. atleast that way both are fighting at the full 1500 points. but i agree going over by large amounts or continuing to go over is stupid.

Codices will never be even on points unless GW made everything possible be taken in multiples of 5.

A Marine is 15 points. An Ork is 6 points. Right there, you can see, that army lists will never always be exactly at 1500 points.

If a player goes over 1500 points, he needs to remove something to be under the agreed point limit.

As I have said many times already, this thread is about what the rules say on the subject, and I have answered this, what, four times already? 1500 point limit means 0 - 1500 points.

Why people love to derail threads around here is beyond me.

If the OP asked what people thought about going over on points, I would be the FIRST person to say it is okay to go over slightly in friendly games, but he didn't ask this. Don't take me as being harsh or anything, I am just sticking with the OPs question in this thread.

[Sir Biscuit]

Honestly, going over points is never okay. When we agree to a 2000 point game, that means no more than 2000 points. That is the limit. If you want to fit in more than that, we can play a higher points game.

I've been asked this a lot, mostly by younger players. "Is it okay if I go 6 points over?" No. No it is not. You can ALWAYS cut something. Sometimes it's a painful cut, yes (like losing artificer armor on your captain or an exarch power) but that's the game. You don't get to bring EVERYTHING. That game is called Apocalypse and it is not the 40k I came to play.

Hitting the points limit or being a few points under is very, very easy to do. Don't try to justify going over by saying "I can't cut anything." It's just not true.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Genearlly speaking No, a limit is just that a Limit.
In freindly game well unless your opponent is stingy i doubt there going to be a worry aslong as you let them do the same.
Tounaments as implied are strict on points, even 1-point is a illegal army list then. Though i dont worry with tournaments myself, i wouldnt have to much of a problem with 1-point, its easy enough to come up with on lists.

But ive played a few people in freindly games and they will sit with a calculator and a codes to make sure your points are correct...funny watching them waste time that way, mathlawyers seriously :p
Even funnier when you ask to do the same and they look at your like your accusing them of cheating even though there doing the exact to you.
Much more fun when you systematically destroy there well prepared army.

[Porty1119]

I seriously cannot believe this thread has persisted this long...I suppose that the BRB should say armies must be +/- 5 points of the game's level? However, then you do have the 'oh look 1000pts here's 3 Land Raiders' thing because the extra 5pts allowed a huge addition. My verdict is simply that a limit is a limit. Period, end of story. I do believe that's why it's a points LIMIT!!!!! LOL

[BuFFo]

I seriously cannot believe this thread has persisted this long...I suppose that the BRB should say armies must be +/- 5 points of the game's level? However, then you do have the 'oh look 1000pts here's 3 Land Raiders' thing because the extra 5pts allowed a huge addition. My verdict is simply that a limit is a limit. Period, end of story. I do believe that's why it's a points LIMIT!!!!! LOL

Agreed.

If you are not going to stick with a limit, don't even call it a limit. Just call it a suggestion, and watch the chaos ensue.

[henrythesecond]

Although argued slightly more militantly than my laid-back, easy-like-a-Sunday-morning style, I've got to agree with Buffo all the way here.

There's obviously a lot of ways of playing 40k (or WFB for that matter), but if you do decide to play to a specific points limit, surely each player has got to stick to that limit?

If you want to play an Army List that doesn't fit under your agreed points cap, agree a higher limit. Or change the Army List. Simple. Building lists to meet specific criteria, whether it be narrative, special scenario, points or whatever is one of the challenges this great hobby offers.

Love the passion in this thread though. It's what forums are about.

Just my 2p worth.