Trygon Prime. Worth it?

[SierraFiveOne]

Hey all!

I've just recently started a Tyranid army and was looking for some advice from some experienced bug players out there. I'm trying to build a monstrous creature-heavy army (because I absolutely love the models) and have yet to get any sort of real experience on the tabletop with them.

I just ordered a Trygon/Mawloc set from my brand new FLGS and was wondering which build would be best. I'm not planning on adding a Mawloc until later so that's not an issue for now.

My question is this: In your opinion is it worth the extra points to upgrade the Trygon to a Prime or would those points be better served somewhere else?

As to the armies I regularly face, I'm usually up against a gunline Imperial guard army (not mechanized), a Wolf Guard heavy Space Wolf army with little to no psykers involved, a gunline Tau army, and a infantry-based Space Marine army led by Pedro Kantor. We're all very friendly so I don't have to worry about cheesy playing.

We generally play at around 1500 pts give or take a few hundred points on any given day. As of right now, I don't have much (only a few hundred points of gaunts and 'stealers for my troops) so my list is very flexible at the moment.

Thanks!

(PS. I want to add a Carnifex in a spore to run around and attempt some anti-tank shenanigans in the background, possibly taking any shots of opportunity at any exposed troops. I've been planning on using the base 'fex with bio-plasma. Is there a better option I should know about?)

[Nungunz]

The trick with Tyranids is that you really have to balance the list very carefully or it will fail miserably. Whether or not a Trygon Prime is a good choice honestly will depend on the rest of your army. In some lists it's great, in others there is no point in taking it.

Can't really tell you one way or another unless you put up a list. It's the great thing about tyranids, there are so many different build options you can run, but on the other hand the army has to work very well as a cohesive unit.

Put a list in the forums or send me an PM and I'll see if I can help you out.

[Ulf]

I usually dont take the upgrade.

The enhanced ranged weapon is pretty useless as your Trygon will be fleeting in the shooting phase most of the time.

Synapse Creature is a nice bonus, but you don't really need it. The Trygon himself does not need it because even if he fails his LD 8 test, he will charge into melee anyway. For other creatures it is kinda hard to get into synapse range withough bringing their own synapse along in the first place.

Shadow in the warp is ok, but nothing to reliably shut down psykers, as they tend to pass their checks on LD 10 anyway, or they can evade the shadow entirely.

[Tynskel]

Nunzgunz is right.

You will have to experiment with your Trygon/Trygon Prime to see which beast works well with your intended tactics and overall strategy.

Some basic fine lines that are probably obvious:

R u using the Trygon as a vanguard or as a harassment unit?

If you plan on vanguard, then the Synapse and extra firepower will probably be more useful to you: thinning numbers so your smaller units can overwhelm.

If you plan on harassment, I would go bare bones, or take the Furious Charge upgrade-- treat the Trygon at that point as expendable--- expensive! yes, but expendable.

Generally, with Tyranids, EVERYTHING is expendable. That's why I have always like playing them. Knowing when to sacrifice a unit take time and practice... which, if you are a bug player, you already know that the Hive Mind has lots of patience. :)

[SierraFiveOne]

Fair enough. I guess you'd need to see the list to get a good idea of what's going on.

Here's what I'm thinking:

HQ

Hive Tyrant
2x Scything Talons
Armored Shell
Regeneration
Paroxysm
Leech Essence

Elites

2x Zoanthropes

1x Lictor

Troops

9x Genestealers
Adrenal Glands
Scything Talons
Rending Claws
Broodlord
Adrenal Glands
Scything Talons

15x Hormagaunts
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs

3x Warriors
Scything Talons
Rending Claws

Fast Attack

3x Raveners
Scything Talons
Rending Claws

Heavy Support

Carnifex
2x Scything Talons
Bio Plasma
Frag Spines
Mycetic Spore

Trygon Prime
Adrenal Glands
Regeneration

All in all this comes out to 1496 points. I tried to include as few ranged weapons as possible as I'm not the biggest fan of Tyranids with guns.

Now a little explanation of what I hope to achieve.

I love Deep Striking. I think it's fun and can help a close combat oriented army like this one out if it needs to grab objectives that aren't exactly within footslogging distance.

I plan to use the Trygon to Deep Strike the Raveners if possible. It will also provide synapse for them to keep them doing what I want them to be doing.

The Lictor is there to help make the Carnifex more accurate when it comes in. It can also guide in the Raveners and/or the Trygon if they arrive later. If there's nothing left to Deep Strike, he'll run around either contesting objectives or bothering any targets of opportunity.

The Genestealers are there to come in by outflanking and to either go after objectives or try to go after anything vulnerable in a kill points game.

The Zoanthropes are intended more as a bullet magnet than anything else, but if they can, I'll try to use them to harass power armored troops or any vehicle that comes too close.

The Hormagaunts and the Warriors are there to work together, with the Warriors providing synapse to the Hormagaunts, who will, in turn, screen the Warriors from incoming fire. These will be my main objective grabbers and general combat troops in non-objective games.

The Raveners are there to Deep Strike in and make a general mess of things. I want to try to get them into close combat with heavily armored opponents (Terminators especially) where their rending claws and above-average initiative can cause some havoc. I don't expect them to live very long, but if I play my cards right, they should make their points back.

The Hive Tyrant is there to look scary, draw fire, and provide synapse where needed. I'll also use him as a close combat tank, trying to draw the attention of any assault troops

Then there's the Carnifex. He's there to deep strike as close to any vehicles as possible and run around wrecking stuff. The bio plasma also gives him a chance to harass any infantry he might come across. He'll probably die, but if he can take out my opponent's big guns, (Basilisks, Whirlwinds, and Hammerheads mostly) he'll have been well worth it.

The Trygon is my second anti-tank choice. Since he can deep strike all up in my opponent's business, he should be great for picking off artillery and tanks, or if none are around, running (slithering?) around and making a general mess of gunlines and infantry concentrations. Ideally, he'll come in before the Raveners so they can follow him in and support him in this.

That's my pre-game strategy. I haven't had a chance to try it out, so input would be great (especially before I drop my money on this stuff.) I'd also like to know what to add if we were to raise the points limit to 2000 points.

[Nungunz]

First things first before I go onto the list:


I love Deep Striking. I think it's fun and can help a close combat oriented army like this one out if it needs to grab objectives that aren't exactly within footslogging distance.

I plan to use the Trygon to Deep Strike the Raveners if possible. It will also provide synapse for them to keep them doing what I want them to be doing.

The Lictor is there to help make the Carnifex more accurate when it comes in. It can also guide in the Raveners and/or the Trygon if they arrive later. If there's nothing left to Deep Strike, he'll run around either contesting objectives or bothering any targets of opportunity.

1. Raveners are beast, not infantry. They cannot use the Trygon's tunnel.

2. Relying on lictors and Trygon tunnels will lose you the game every time. It is too random and undependable. You are almost 100% banking on having the Trygon and Lictors (as you can only use their reserves special abilities the turn AFTER they show up) show up turn 2 and having everything else show up afterwards. This will never happen.

If your army comes in piecemeal, your opponent will be able to take it apart bit-by-bit every game without much effort. If you want a deep strike army, fine, that can work. But DO NOT depend on lictors to help you out.

Hive Commander is a must if you are having a DS/reserves army. Half and half usually isn't a good idea. If you like DS, I'd suggest quite a few Mycetic Spores.


Another flaw I see is a complete lack of ranged anti-transport. Tyranids are great at tearing through infantry...but they have trouble against vehicles. Hive Guard/Deathspitters/Venom Cannons/Rupture Cannons do a good job of cracking open the cans to get to the delicious squishy bits inside.



Here's what I'm thinking:

HQ

Hive Tyrant
2x Scything Talons
Armored Shell
Regeneration
Paroxysm
Leech Essence

Pricey, slow, no body guard. And with a lot of your army in reserves, he will take all the enemies anti-tank fire and die very quickly. Regeneration looks amazing, but in reality it isn't that great, would be better on W6 monstrosity. On the Tyrant all it really does is force your opponent to try and kill it in 1 turn on the off chance it regenerates a wound.

You need hive commander.


Elites

2x Zoanthropes

1x Lictor

Very, very empty elite slot at 1500. Zoans are best with a Spore. Lictor could use a friend or two in his brood.


Troops

9x Genestealers
Adrenal Glands
Scything Talons
Rending Claws
Broodlord
Adrenal Glands
Scything Talons

You don't need Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs would be better if you take any. Lose the Scything Talons if you need points, they aren't a must have.


15x Hormagaunts
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs

Too expensive, lose the adrenal glands and bump the brood up to at least 20


3x Warriors
Scything Talons
Rending Claws

I don't see these guys adding anything to you army. Too slow, no range threat, and S8 blasts will maul them to pieces.


Fast Attack

3x Raveners
Scything Talons
Rending Claws

These guys are tissue paper and can't do a thing after deepstriking. Take 5 or don't take any.


Carnifex
2x Scything Talons
Bio Plasma
Frag Spines
Mycetic Spore

Could work very well. Not sure though as the army doesn't have a lot of synergy.


Trygon Prime
Adrenal Glands
Regeneration

In your list, he won't need the Prime upgrade. Regeneration is a maybe.



Overall, there isn't much synergy in the list. It doesn't function as a cohesive unit and your army comes in one-by-one. This makes it very easy for an opponent to prioritize targets and take your army out one piece at a time rather than have to make hard choices and deal with a lot at once.

Sorry if it wasn't the news you were looking for, but I hope it helps.

[SierraFiveOne]

Sorry if it wasn't the news you were looking for, but I hope it helps.

Don't worry. I asked for opinions and you gave yours. It's all good and I appreciate the input. I'll admit I did get a "WHAAAT" moment when you reminded me that Raveners aren't infantry. It just sorta seems that they'd be able to follow the tunnel considering that they're tunneling creatures themselves

I should clarify and say that anti-transport isn't a huge priority for me. I only play with three or four other people and none of us really have enough money to afford a mech-list.

In fact, I should probably post generally what I'm fighting as from what I've read on this site, my metagame is massively different than pretty much anywhere else. This is pretty much off the top of my head and I'm sure to miss a bunch of it. These are the big units I can remember.

Imperial Guard

Straken plus Command
10 man Stormtroopers
About 3 or 4 Vet squads. One has Harker
2x Scout Sentinels
Basilisk
Stock Leman Russ w/Lascannon
Leman Russ Vanquisher w/Pask

This player tends to use a sort of advancing gun line strategy. I've had luck using Chaos Marines deep striking/outflanking behind him while advancing from the front. He can do a whole lot of damage if he catches you in the open.

I've had the most success with a deepstriking Chaos Marine army.

Space Wolves

Wolf Lord with Saga of the Bear
Bjorn the Fell Handed
2x 7 man Blood Claws w/Wolf Lord Terminator Sergeants
2x 10 man Grey hunters. Kitted with flamers and plasma guns.
5 Man Wolf Guard Terminator squad with assault cannon. Everyone else has TH/SS
Long Fang squad in a drop pod

He tends to rush forward and assault asap. His drop pod usually lands in my deployment area and causes all sorts of havoc before I can kill the squad off. I found it's best to assault him from two sides to keep his forces from ganging up on any particular unit.

I've had the best luck against this opponent with Nob and Kan-heavy Orks

Tau

Commander
2x Crisis suits with shield drones.
3x full Fire Warrior squads
2x full Kroot Squads
Piranha
Pathfinders in a devilfish
FRIGGIN LUCKIEST BROADSIDE EVER
Hammerhead with Rail Gun
Hammerhead with Ion Cannon

This is a very static gunline army. He may not move much but God help you if you get caught in the open in front of it.

Oddly enough, I've had the best luck against him using Necrons. I found that dropping a Monolith right on top of him and unloading warriors right up in his face tends to work well. A full squad of wraiths can also chew through a Fire Warrior squad nicely. The biggest problems I have are his Crisis suits which take a huge amount of firepower before dying.

Space Marines

Pedro Kantor
Chaplain.
3x Full marine squads with flamers and missile launchers.
5 man Terminator squad. One assault cannon.
Dreadnought with Multi-melta and DCCW
5 man Man Vanguard Veterans
Sniper scouts with a Land Speeder Storm
Devastators with Plasma cannons in a Heavy Bolter Razorback
Predator with lascannons all around
Vindicator

He moves and shoots quite a bit. It's generally tough to pin him down and assault him unless you can deep strike or outflank near him. Even then, you'll still probably end up in range of the seemingly everywhere-at-once Vindicator. He's probably the toughest opponent I play.

I've had the most luck against him with Chaos Marines. They're just about as mobile as he is and it generally comes down to who can maneuver their squads from cover to cover the best.

As for my playing style, I tend to favor aggressive assault or close-ranged shooting tactics. I like to deep strike, especially when I can control it (Chaos icons, Monoliths, etc) and find I tend to move forward from cover to cover as fast as I can to keep my guys alive to get in the fight.

Generally we like using a lot of terrain (buildings especially) and tend to play a lot of Cities of Death games. We're not very competitive and tend to play for "coolness" factor more than for victory. We rarely play objective-based games and usually go for kill points.

Hope this gives you a little more information on what I'm up against. God help any of us if we run into a Mech guard player.

[NidzillaFTW]

I would say go for the trygon prime. But keep in mind the difference between the trygon model build and trygon prime model build is pretty subtle. Once you have it built, I am sure you could use the model for either one... provided you disclose to your opponent which one it is before the game starts. so try the Trygon Prime out for a game or two and then decide if it is worth the 40 extra points.

With regards to your list, I don't really see how you can take out the Russ' or even the other tanks. I would drop the lictor and beef up on the zoanthorpes since they are equally good at destroying vehicles and infantry (Str 5 AP3 blast template FTW!). Especially since your opponent doesn't have any anti-psyker defenses.

I like raveners too. The toughness 4 is kind of a let down, but keep in mind they can move and charge a unit 19 to 24 inches away. I find the trick is to deep strike them well away from your enemy and hope that during his shooting phase he decides to shoot at a more clear and present danger (like a trygon Prime bearing down on him) and basically ignores them. It's basically the "target saturation" strategy.

other points:

Hormagaunts: while I know it is tempting to take the upgrades, I could never bring myself to spend 10pts on a toughness 3 model with a 6+ save. Those things are cannon fodder man. I would lose the upgrades and just take more models. more models = more wounds per unit=better chance of making it to your opponents gun line.

Carnifex: while the 4th edition carnifex was the reason I started playing nids, I am not sure the current incarnation is worth the points cost. Carnifex are slow, not very tough, live in fear of force weapons, and almost always go last in a combat round. For the cost of one carnifex you could almost take 3 zoanthorpes instead.

anyway, good luck! and let me say it is refreshing to see a non-Tevigon tyranid army for once!

[Inquisitor Hate Machine]

Carnifex: while the 4th edition carnifex was the reason I started playing nids, I am not sure the current incarnation is worth the points cost. Carnifex are slow, not very tough, live in fear of force weapons, and almost always go last in a combat round. For the cost of one carnifex you could almost take 3 zoanthorpes instead.

anyway, good luck! and let me say it is refreshing to see a non-Tevigon tyranid army for once!

I have a friend who plays nids. he LOVES his fexes, and wonders why everyone hates them now. They have lots of wounds, and are stupid shooty! those *******s were pretty damned annoying in our last 1500 pt game, and he did well with them at WGC

his 1500 pt list was something like this

Swarm lord with 2 tyrant guard? is that the unit?
2 hive guard with that stupid No LOS gun :(
2 fex that shot a whole lot
2 Zoanthropes that made too many saves
Tervigon
bunch of devogaunts

its was pretty crazygonuts