Leman Russ Squadrons

[gwensdad]

I'm having mixed success in the league I'm in right now. I've been fielding a Squadron of 3 Russes (Russi? Russ'?) and found that they either 1) dominate from turn 1 and win me the game or 2) get close assaulted and destroyed by turn 3. Of course, everyone else in the league insists I stop using squadrons completely and take single tanks. So thoughts? I'm thinking for next month either dumping all tanks and going Guard-Horde or taking a second squadron to support the first.
Here's what the squadron is now:

Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ 185
+lascannon
+Sponson Heavy flamers
Leman Russ 195
+lascannon
+Sponson Heavy bolters
+Pintol mounted heavy stubber
Leman Russ 200
+Heavy Flamer
+Sponson Plasma Cannon
+Pintol mounted heavy stubber

What I'm thinking when adding a second squadron is 2 of the above LR being joined by a Vanquisher, then the 2nd squadron being a Punisher, one of the above LR, and one other undecided (need to acquire) LR.

[BuFFo]

Wait a second....

Are you using your other two heavy slots up? If you aren't, then why are you taking a squadron? Take one Russ per slot.

[crazyredpraetorian]

......and why would your opponents want you to take the LRBTs a seperate units? If you are putting the hurt on them with a squadron, they won't be happy with them as seperate units.

[gwensdad]

In one instance I took the Vanquisher in 1 slot and the Punisher in another and (with the squadron) was 3. This last series I dumped the Vanquisher and took a Basilisk.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I bet I know why.

As an SM player I use a full squadron of land speeders. Even with AV10, this unit is very hard to totally neutralize, because of the way you allocate hits. I very often allocate the hits so that the penetrating hits are stacked on one particular vehicle. I am fairly certain this is how the rules work, and I can only imagine how much more effective it would be for LRBT variants. Those things are pretty tough on their own, but with the ability to stack the shots and that many weapons, they might absorb a lot more fire before one of them goes silent.

The only major down side is that you have to level the LR's already-excessive firepower at a single target, which is simply overkill. But then, any general worth his salt is going to avoid the area covered by those tanks like the plague -- no one wants to get shot by that!!!!

[Katie Drake]

If you're going to take more than one Russ in a squadron, never take more than 2. This way you can hide one of the tanks behind cover and have the other sitting right in the open and both vehicles get a cover save.

Really though, Leman Russes should be taken as single model units. It's very rare that you need more than one Russ firing at the same target to wipe it out, especially in the case of any of the variants that have weapons on their turrets that fire blasts.

[RocketRollRebel]

Agreed. Russes in squadrons can go terribly wrong when they get caught in close combat (damn you lichtor!). I leave squadrons to hydras and hellhounds personally. If you are going to take a squad o russes tho I'd take two and keep em cheap with a battle cannon and hull heavy bolter.

[Chumbalaya]

I don't like Russ Squadrons as it lets them get popped by immobilized and susceptible to glancing hits, which is one of the big strengths of AV14, being immune to most weapons.

As for the Russes themselves, sponsons are too expensive and force you to be static, hull lascannons are too expensive and ineffective (hull heavy flamer), and Battle Cannons are too generalist since you can get better weapons anywhere.

[Xas]

Battle Cannons are too generalist since you can get better weapons anywhere.

can you show me a better weapon to equally kill MEQ, hordes and light tanks(transports)?

I like the russ and the hullascannon because it helps with the relative weakness of the battlecanon (only 1 s8 shot against tanks).

[Katie Drake]

As for the Russes themselves, sponsons are too expensive and force you to be static, hull lascannons are too expensive and ineffective (hull heavy flamer), and Battle Cannons are too generalist since you can get better weapons anywhere.

Huh? Sponsons aren't expensive unless you're talking about the heavy flamer ones (God those are awful. I'd personally only take them if they were free). Sponsons also really don't force you to be static. Players are perfectly capable of moving their tanks despite having sponsons - that they choose not to is a weakness on their part, not on the tank's.

Hull lascannons are pretty expensive but they do have their place with some Russ builds. When we're talking about a normal Battle Tank, it's best to leave the lascannon at home and just roll with the heavy bolter.

Battle cannons are anything but too generalist. They're freaking devastating! Sure, they can't reliably deal with AV14 but few things can. Sure, they can't wipe out 2+ armor save protected infantry but again, few things can. The Leman Russ Battle Tank with plasma cannon sponsons is a nightmare on treads to almost anything.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

As for the Russes themselves, sponsons are too expensive and force you to be static, hull lascannons are too expensive and ineffective (hull heavy flamer), and Battle Cannons are too generalist since you can get better weapons anywhere. Makes little sense. Even if you were "forced" to stay static this things have a huge sphere of influence and can reach out and touch some poor unit nearly anywhere on their 2/3 of the table, LOS permitting.

I find the guard army folds quickly without these monsters, personally it's my first step to nuke them when I face them!

[Chumbalaya]

You think 6 S5 shots that force your tank to sit still is worth 20 points?

A static tank is a dead tank because close combat attacks auto-hit.

What does a battle cannon do that no other weapon does better? Kill vehicles? Melta, Demolisher, Medusa, Vendetta. Kill light AV? Autocannon. Kill Terminators? Demolisher, melta, plasma. Kill infantry in cover? Hellhound, Bane Wolf, Collussus, any high S high RoF weapon.

Battle Cannons kill marines in the open. Congrats, your opponent is an idiot.

Hull heavy flamer is best because it's free and gives assault units pause before rushing your lines.

[Katie Drake]

You think 6 S5 shots that force your tank to sit still is worth 20 points?

Those shots can certainly be worth the points, yes.


A static tank is a dead tank because close combat attacks auto-hit.

Err, then move if you're about to be assaulted? The sponsons are there to fire if the situation warrants it. If there's a unit of Assault Marines just over 12" away and you're not confident in your ability to kill them before they reach the Russ, then obviously you should forgo firing the sponsons to lessen the chances of the Assault Marines destroying the Leman Russ.


What does a battle cannon do that no other weapon does better? Kill vehicles? Melta, Demolisher, Medusa, Vendetta. Kill light AV? Autocannon. Kill Terminators? Demolisher, melta, plasma. Kill infantry in cover? Hellhound, Bane Wolf, Collussus, any high S high RoF weapon.

You're looking at things in a very two-dimensional way. In a vaccuum, sure a Colossus is a better pick when it comes to blowing troops out of cover. Sure, a Demolisher is better against 2+ save protected infantry and so on. The battle cannon is worthwhile to take because it's cheap and can perform a variety of roles. What happens if there's some Terminators approaching and your Demolisher happened to be taken out early in the fight, or is too far to assist? A Russ sporting plasma cannon sponsons would be a unit worth shooting at the Terminators in this case, because while it's true that the battle cannon itself won't be terribly effective against the Terminators, its sponsons sure will and there are a lot more occassions where a battle cannon is effective than the one you propose below.


Battle Cannons kill marines in the open. Congrats, your opponent is an idiot.

These are the kinds of statements that make me wonder how much thought you're putting into your posts. Yes, if your opponent is foot slogging some Marines across the battlefield toward you and not taking any advantage of cover than he's an idiot. If, however some Marines had their transport blown up early on and are now sitting in the open they're easy prey for a Russ. Besides, at what point does killing 50% of the models you touch with a large blast template become something to turn your nose up at? Sure, you might be shooting at a unit in cover sometimes, but you still have an even chance of murdering a good number of models.


Hull heavy flamer is best because it's free and gives assault units pause before rushing your lines.

Any dedicated assault unit worth its salt isn't going to sit back and decide not to assault just because of a heavy flamer on a Leman Russ. At worst it'd make them stay inside their transport and move to another spot where the flamer will be less a problem.

[Chumbalaya]

Those shots can certainly be worth the points, yes.

6 BS3 S5 shots? 6 BS3 S5 shots? What's that going to do, tickle somebody?


Err, then move if you're about to be assaulted? The sponsons are there to fire if the situation warrants it. If there's a unit of Assault Marines just over 12" away and you're not confident in your ability to kill them before they reach the Russ, then obviously you should forgo firing the sponsons to lessen the chances of the Assault Marines destroying the Leman Russ.

The only sponsons worth anything are the plasma variety, and then they aren't that useful on a LRBT. Heavy Bolters are too expensive for too ineffectual a weapon, Heavy Flamers have messed up fire arcs, so plasma is all you have left. Problem is, plasma and the battle cannon don't work well together. BC smushes light AV and marines in the open, plasma doesn't do so hot against armor and is overkill on marines. Plasma messes up MC and 2+ saves, BC does not. About the only thing they work well together on is Plague Marines and Nob Bikers.


You're looking at things in a very two-dimensional way. In a vaccuum, sure a Colossus is a better pick when it comes to blowing troops out of cover. Sure, a Demolisher is better against 2+ save protected infantry and so on. The battle cannon is worthwhile to take because it's cheap and can perform a variety of roles. What happens if there's some Terminators approaching and your Demolisher happened to be taken out early in the fight, or is too far to assist? A Russ sporting plasma cannon sponsons would be a unit worth shooting at the Terminators in this case, because while it's true that the battle cannon itself won't be terribly effective against the Terminators, its sponsons sure will and there are a lot more occassions where a battle cannon is effective than the one you propose below.

How is that two-dimensional? The BC is a compromise weapon, capable of maybe doing something halfway decent to somebody, while IG can afford to pick multiple specialized and flexible weapons. Demolisher does all of that except mess up infantry huddled in cover for 15 points more, and it can stay mobile while doing so. A colussus mixes well with other specialized variants because you send your Demolishers to splat Terminators and heavy armor, Vendettas/Hydras to pop light AV, and the Collussus blows apart the infantry that hop out and gives them no cover saves.

Any other army would kill for an AV14 battle cannon, but Guard just don't need it any more.


These are the kinds of statements that make me wonder how much thought you're putting into your posts. Yes, if your opponent is foot slogging some Marines across the battlefield toward you and not taking any advantage of cover than he's an idiot. If, however some Marines had their transport blown up early on and are now sitting in the open they're easy prey for a Russ. Besides, at what point does killing 50% of the models you touch with a large blast template become something to turn your nose up at? Sure, you might be shooting at a unit in cover sometimes, but you still have an even chance of murdering a good number of models.

Destroyed transports + intelligent player = hide inside crater/behind wreckage. Free cover for popping a transport. If you spread your models properly (when facing IG there's no excuse) the BC can catch maybe 4 or 5, has to roll to wound, and you get cover. Grats, you killed 2 marines. Not that great.


Any dedicated assault unit worth its salt isn't going to sit back and decide not to assault just because of a heavy flamer on a Leman Russ. At worst it'd make them stay inside their transport and move to another spot where the flamer will be less a problem.

Maybe you don't realize how bunched up units get assaulting tanks. They charge a vehicle that moved 12" last turn, don't do jack to it because of the whole hitting on 6+ thing, then they are perfectly aligned for a BBQ. Even marines will get messed up by a S5 shot hitting every model in the unit. It's even worse if you have multiple vehicles and multiple flamers (Every tank has a HF hull mount in my army, nothing else comes close to being useful).

[terminus]

Sponsons don't make you static. You often have a hard time firing both weapons at the same target anyway. I like the Demolisher with hull heavy flamer and sponson multi-meltas. The demolisher stays on the move the entire game... if firing at a tank, it gets a demolisher cannon and multi-melta, if firing at infantry, they eat a demolisher cannon and a heavy flamer. If the opportunity comes up to stand still and blast away at something, a demolisher cannon and two multi-meltas are brutal to anything.

[Denzark]

Sponsons give redundancy if nothing else - remember when immobilised, immobilised results count as weapons destroyed if they have some left or wrecked of no weapons left. So sponsons get you 2 bites of the cherry - only a fool would ignore an imobilised tank with weapons left on it.

[terminus]

Sponsons can also be economical in some ways. For example, lots of people like to spend an additional 15 points for a lascannon on the demolisher, because they both are AP2 weapons, and it gives it a bit more reliability when firing at vehicles. For an extra 15 points, you upgrade the lascannon to a multi-melta, which synergizes just as well or better with the demolisher cannon, and get ANOTHER multi-melta and a heavy flamer as part of the bargain.

And yes, like denzark says, having sponsons means your tank can take 6 immobilized/weapon destroyed damage results before it dies.

[Chumbalaya]

Sponson multi-meltas? You do realize you need to be static to get any use out of them, a single BS3 multi-melta shot is not very useful.

Hull lascannon does complement a Demolisher shell, but it's too expensive, BS3, and not a very good tank buster on its own.

Instead of shelling out points for maybes and what ifs, wouldn't it be better to simply get another tank?

[terminus]

Funny, I don't remember seeing any tanks that cost 30 points. There are worse ways to spend those points, especially when they provide redundancy and protects your investment. For example, the extra points for plasma sponsons on an executioner make an already expensive tank a LOT more expensive, but you're putting out 5 plasma templates at 36". If that turret goes and you didn't buy sponsons, what do you have left? A 190-point heavy flamer? w00t.

Don't get me wrong, I try to keep all my units as cheap and expendable as possible, but sometimes you have to go all out or not bother (like chimera spam... it works wonderfully, and the only detractors are the people that mix 3 or 4 into their gunline list, and expect to overwhelm the enemy).

[Chumbalaya]

Executioners are the only variant I'd put sponsons on because they complement the turret perfectly. You'll need a buffer of infantry to protect it from assaults of course.

Sponsons don't add much to the other variants, they don't complement the weapons well enough, restrict mobility, and once the turret goes you've got 2 heavy bolters, woo hoo.

And 3 or 4 Chimeras work just fine, when you've got Russes, Hellhounds, Artillery, or flyers to go with them.

[terminus]

Well, plasma compliments the Executioner, and in my experience, meltas compliment the Demolisher. Those are pretty much the only variants I use (except naked LRBTs if I'm short on points), so that's good enough for me. The heavy bolter sponsons are pretty lame given their cost (they really should be 10 points for both, like the Vendetta), but I could see their value on an Exterminator.

[Glocknal]

The LRBT is the master generalist in the IG army. The battle cannon gives you 72" range, allowing you to strike with a large ordnance template on the first turn, anywhere in LOS. In fact its the only LR tank I would take in a squadron, as it can stay at extreme range and punish enemy infantry formations, or use its S8 BC to take out AV13 with two dice, taking the highest.

I have gotten good mileage out of the hull lascannon, though I think its about 5pts overcosted. I think the LRBT is a nice gap filler in a IG army. Able to do many roles at once, allowing you tactical flexiblity.