How do you feel about the True Line of sight??

[MarneusCalgar]

So, as we can read HERE:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/08/editorial-how-true-line-of-sight-is.html

I extend here the debate... What do you think??

[energongoodie]

It's how I played it 20 years ago and it's how we should be playing it now.

[Faultie]

I'm not a particular fan of it in the 40k scale and environment.
I don't mind it in some scales, or at skirmish level, or when a board is full of big terrain. It just doesn't work for some applications, and I think that 5th ed 40k is one of those.

[megatrons2nd]

TLOS would be fine if it worked both ways. Unfortunately, models can dive into cover, but you can't stand up or twist around a corner to take a shot over/sround an obstacle. You can also kill my whole squad because you can see an arm of one model, but nobdy in my squad can return fire through whatever holes you hit them through.

[energongoodie]

If I could only see one arm of your whole unit I would say I could not shoot at that unit. I would hope most people would play that way.

[Duke]

Sorry buddy, but people don't play that way unless it is you and your best bud.

Most people only care about winning. Especially when you get into the tourney scene. I found that i am way too nice of a gamer and people take advantage of it.

Tlos works fine for things that have clearly defined areas (ruins, buildings, wrecks) but tlos doesn't work at all for hills and forests. We really should be using a hybrid terrain system where those trees/hills count as area terrain and buildings and the stuff i mentioned before is tlos. Our rules system is already complicated, why not go one step further?

Duke

[energongoodie]

I thought you could only hit what you could see. Hence TLOS. I'm at work so don't have a rule book. What's the wording for shooting at units mostly in cover? I'm still gonna play it my way. I would like to be a tournament player but I do not have the time or a local gaming group.

[Duke]

If I can see you I can shoot you, the only question is if you get a cover save or not. If I can only see a portion of one guy in your squad I can shoot and you will get cover. Sucks, but thats how it is.

Duke

[energongoodie]

Then we do not have TRUE line of site. We have a weird gaming mechanic that, although better than the last version, is bobbins. I miss Rogue Trader more and more.

[lobster-overlord]

Considering most things in the game at this scale are an abstraction, TLOS doesn't work for me. Area terrain, the idea of 6 inches in and out for shooting, difficult terrain marked by bounderies of a piece of particle board all work for me on an abstrat level. Re-introducing TLOS throws that off.

Measureing from base to base is pointless when you're shooting at something's torso. The torso of a guy on a 40mm Heavy Weapons IG base is 1 inch in, so if they are at maximum range b2b, but the guys are actually 1.5 inches further, then TLOS doesn't take that into account. You shouldn't be able to hit him since TLOS give him to you but actual distance doesn't. If you have unobstructed range to a base, you should be able to hit the guy. If th range is obstructed, then you'd get the saves/penalties for cover.

John M.

[BuFFo]

I am perfectly happy with true line of sight.

Being able to see an arm is all a squad needs to know an enemy's location, and pepper the area with weapon fire until all life ceases.

Also, the amount of cover saves units get in this edition is crazy high, and almost negates true line of sight for the most part. Firing 3 Russ battle cannons on a 10 man marine squad, and killing 5 if I am lucky, due to cover saves is pretty strong.

[isotope99]

Haha, can't touch this!:D

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/photopost/data/578/DSC01077.JPG

Just to be clear, I converted this model before 5th Ed not to game the rules, but it shows how some sneaky modelling can get you a diffferent result. I'm not sure of anywhere in the rulebook that says models have to be standing up.

On the other side, I am working on an adeptus mechanicus army that swaps tanks for knights which are 10m tall in 40K scale and impossible to hide behind anything but the largest terrain feature. Most of my greater daemons are screwed too.

True line of sight works for speeding the game up but the opportunities for abuse and unfair results high. It's hard to come up with a sensible solution though, that doesn't result in some argument and I have to say that in the balance I'm glad to be rid of some of the complex abstractions there were before.

Or to summarise, faster games are better, even if I do lose more of them.

[HsojVvad]

Dosn't the rules say, if you can't see the body, you can't fire at it? If you can only see arms or the spear tip, you can't shoot at it. The Body has to be seen.

[Lane]

Makes me wish I'd spent more money on old models.

Mk6 Beakies - 30% shorter
Old Rhinos - about 30% less area per side
old dreadnaughts - about half as wide

One of the big complaints when the current generation Rhino and Land Raider was their size. Prior to those models many people were still sizing buildings and terrain on the RT era ground scale of 1" = 2m. Buildings were generally in the 4x4 to 6x8 range. Suddenly tanks were bigger than the buildings.

IMHO the TLOS rule is a bad idea. It places a concrete factor in an abstract system.
From a modeling aspect TLoS is a detriment, a cool ruined building could actually expose more models due to placing restrictions while a crap set of walls could block LoS.

A more abstract system would be better. The terrain model determines LoS. Woods block LoS both ways after X" distance and give cover before that. Ruined buildings block LoS into or thru over X" but not out of. Intact building block LoS thru and both ways if over 2", cover if under 2" into.

[Ghoulio]

Sorry buddy, but people don't play that way unless it is you and your best bud.

Most people only care about winning. Especially when you get into the tourney scene. I found that i am way too nice of a gamer and people take advantage of it.

Tlos works fine for things that have clearly defined areas (ruins, buildings, wrecks) but tlos doesn't work at all for hills and forests. We really should be using a hybrid terrain system where those trees/hills count as area terrain and buildings and the stuff i mentioned before is tlos. Our rules system is already complicated, why not go one step further?

Duke

I pretty much agree with you 100%. It really should be a hybrid of TLOS and blocked area terrain.

[Mr.Pickelz]

as a reply to that scout.
what you don't see is a Grey knight with an Incinerator DS right behind him. :D

also when doing LOS with a "forest" i'd say it works kinda like Night fight, you can't "see" the unit/model till it fires (or uses a offensive psyker power). so far, in friendly games it's added some cool depth to the game while not limiting too much on game play smoothness. :)

[anal_parsons_project]

I <3 True Line of Site. It was great in Necromunda and it's carried over to 40k quit well.

While I had a realy long and eloquent reply mdae for this, I stumbled across an article on the web that pretty much made my reply redundant:

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/08/true-line-of-sight-real-take.html

[EmeraldKnight]

I <3 True Line of Site. It was great in Necromunda and it's carried over to 40k quit well.

While I had a realy long and eloquent reply mdae for this, I stumbled across an article on the web that pretty much made my reply redundant:

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/08/true-line-of-sight-real-take.html

I read the article you linked and with the exception of this one paragraph:


Let's be clear here, TLoS represents an 'unfolding' battlefield. We know we are playing a game (well you do now!) and that a turn-based system can only depict a real battlefield so much. (omg baby hippo on TV. this needs a pic). Er sorry, side-tracked. Anyway, infantry and tanks are constantly on the move and whilst I'm sure there are case when you couldn't see the whole squad/tank/etc in real-life, this is a game and attempts to be as easy and fun as possible to play. Remember 2nd ed with a billion rules? 3rd became even more streamlined yet between 3rd and 4th there were cover saves for this model, these models couldn't even hit but this one could, you can't see through this terrain or this terrain gives me this, etc. etc. Streamlining is the point of TLoS, not some super secret conspiracy to make you have awesome terrain. The exact same as combat rules. Everyone can die and combats are quick messy affairs. IT MAKES THE GAME FASTER AND EASIER TO LEARN. Good things for business as more people are willing to get into it.

it was primarily a flame of the OP. Even this is mostly smoke left over from the flame.

As for the topic at hand, TLOS is flawed. If you are going to use TLOS then ALL models on the table must be to the SAME scale to be a fair and balanced game enviroment. Now lets examine that premise. It means that my space marine in power armor represents an average of 8 feet in height. 10 of those marine plus equipment (bolters, flamer, rocket launcher etc...) can fit into a Rhino. 12 of them can fit into a Chimera. Don't forget that the Rhino has a driver as well and the Chimera has a driver and a gunner(?). Already we have issues. As every one from 2nd ed. knows, a rhino has a super secret squirell Tardis circuit built into all the doors and hatches. This circuit reduces the size of all models entering the vehicle to 2/3 their normal size. That is how they all fit in (this only applies to the modern rhino, the old 2nd ed rhino had a more efficient circuit and reduction was 1/2) My point is that in TLOS the Rhino should be about the size of the current Land Raider. That way when you put a sqaud next to it the line of sight foortprint is the right scale compared to infantry models. In fact ALL of the vehicles in the imperial arsenal should be about 20 to 40% bigger to make them match the scale of the infantry. I would not go so far as to say that TLOS is killing the game. I for one cheerfully play with the local game group using house rules concerning "soft" terrain. Basically they are identical to the area terrain rules used this year at WARcon. Any shot crossing a template of terrain is assumed to be crossing between 2 elements of that terrain and therefore gives the target a cover save. Players should ALWAYS discuss terrain prior to start of game so there are no surprises. My biggest complaint about TLOS ( the offcenter hvy weapon shot against vehicles) is gone as a friendly judge at aforesaid tourney pointed out the single sentence in the rulebook that says that you get a 3+ cover save for such a slanted shot. Knowledgeable Judges FTW!