Feel No Pain and Saves

[BCompDude]

Can you take other saves (other than armour saves) AND still take a FNP save?

Example: Ork Nob Biker that gets blasted by a Strength 4 AP4 weapon. That bypasses his armour. Can he still take his 4+ exhaust cloud save AND take a FNP save if that fails?

Example: A Gaunt is in cover and gets ht by a bolter. It has the FNP ability this turn. Can it take a cover save AND a FNP save?

The answer should be the same to both questions but...there it is. Thanks guys!

[Culven]

A model is permitted only one attempt at a Save (Armour, Cover, or Invulnerable). Feel No Pain (FnP) isn't actually a Save, so it can be attempted after the model has failed its Save. The only time that FnP wouldn't be permitted is if the wound is caused by something that meets the criteria listed in the FnP rule.

[Leez]

Can you take other saves (other than armour saves) AND still take a FNP save?

Example: Ork Nob Biker that gets blasted by a Strength 4 AP4 weapon. That bypasses his armour. Can he still take his 4+ exhaust cloud save AND take a FNP save if that fails?

Example: A Gaunt is in cover and gets ht by a bolter. It has the FNP ability this turn. Can it take a cover save AND a FNP save?

The answer should be the same to both questions but...there it is. Thanks guys!

The later is answered above, as to the former, actually using the Armour Save instead of the Cover or Invulnerable save is not one of the listed requirements of FNP.

[Nabterayl]

Example: Ork Nob Biker that gets blasted by a Strength 4 AP4 weapon. That bypasses his armour.

Example: A Gaunt is in cover and gets ht by a bolter.
Note that both models could take their FNP roll even if they didn't have another save. FNP is denied by hits against which no model may take an armor save; e.g., AP1 and AP2 shots. Whether or not this specific model can take an armor save against the hit is irrelevant.

[Culven]

FNP is denied by hits against which no model may take an armor save; e.g., AP1 and AP2 shots.
I think that phrasing it like this tends to cause some fo the confusion for players. I find it best to explain the no-FnP criteria as a checklist. Is the wound AP1 or AP2? Is it from a Power Weapon? Is it from a source that denies any and all Armour Saves? Will it cause Instant Death? If the answer to any of these is "yes", then FnP is denied. A typical AP 3 weapon doesn't meet any of these criteria (excluding the possibility of Instant Death), so it won't deny FnP.

[addamsfamily36]

I think that phrasing it like this tends to cause some fo the confusion for players. I find it best to explain the no-FnP criteria as a checklist. Is the wound AP1 or AP2? Is it from a Power Weapon? Is it from a source that denies any and all Armour Saves? Will it cause Instant Death? If the answer to any of these is "yes", then FnP is denied. A typical AP 3 weapon doesn't meet any of these criteria (excluding the possibility of Instant Death), so it won't deny FnP.

Culven, i agree with all of this, but the instant death part does open a curious possibility.

for instance lets assume a weapon causes instant death, I.e if you fail your save invunerable etc then you die outright unless you have eternal warrior.

Now say a weapon is double your strength causing instant death, but its ap value is 3 or 4, and you have a save of 3 and also have a fnp, then you might lose your armour save, but woud have fnp as the weapon is only ap3. does that make sense?

[Culven]

Now say a weapon is double your toughness causing instant death, but its ap value is 3 or 4, and you have a save of 3 and also have a fnp, then you might lose your armour save, but woud have fnp as the weapon is only ap3. does that make sense?
No, it doesn't. The fact that the weapon causes Instant Death means that it doesn't matter what the AP of the weapon happens to be since it already meets the criteria for denying FnP.

P.S. I fixed the bit I quoted for you.

[wolflold]

It's simple

In the shooting phase you get no FNP :
- from weapons with Ap 1 or 2
- Instant death

In the assault phase you get no FNP :
- from weapons that ignore armour saves (power weapons, power fist, ect. just read the weapons discription)
- Instant death

It doesn't matter if you fail your invulnerable save or cover save, you get a FNP unless from the criteria above.
Also even if a model has eternal warrior he still doesn't get a FNP if he he meets the criteria above!

[Lordgimpet]

Can you take other saves (other than armour saves) AND still take a FNP save?

Example: Ork Nob Biker that gets blasted by a Strength 4 AP4 weapon. That bypasses his armour. Can he still take his 4+ exhaust cloud save AND take a FNP save if that fails?

Example: A Gaunt is in cover and gets ht by a bolter. It has the FNP ability this turn. Can it take a cover save AND a FNP save?

The answer should be the same to both questions but...there it is. Thanks guys!

My interpretations of the rules for FnP would say no to both examples.
As though at the start of the FnP rule (in page 75) its just states 'unsaved' wounds but states armorsaves later on in the rule. Also where its lists some of the other circumsatances where FnP is not used, these examples such as perils from the warp, rending, dangerous terrain etc also state that cover or invul saves cant be used under their own sections. Also rending shots count as ap2 anyway. So I've been assuming that a failed invulnerable or cover saves don't get a FnP roll if the default Armor save is negated in some way as per the FnP rules.

is why im a big fan of a crackshot reaper launcher exarch against my mates plague marines :P

[wolflold]

So I've been assuming that a failed invulnerable or cover saves don't get a FnP roll if the default Armor save is negated in some way as per the FnP rules.

Then why do Plague Bearers have FNP? They only have a invulnerable save! They have this rule but can never use it???

[sebi81]

Unsaved wounds does not mean that you have to fail your armour save. If you don't get an armour save the wound is unsaved too. Unsaved just means, that the wound is actually not saved. If you have no saving throw at all the wound is not saved (=unsaved) too.
So as stated above, if a hit doesn't ignore all armour or instant kill you, you have FnP. If you have an armour, an invulnerable or a cover save or not, doesn't change the ability to take FnP. It is possible to use FnP without having any kind of saving throw. A gaunt which has FnP in this round and is hit by a bolter penetrating his armour and standing out of cover can still use FnP.

[Lordgimpet]

Then why do Plague Bearers have FNP? They only have a invulnerable save! They have this rule but can never use it???

hmm good point, to be honest I had not considered deamons, I do lack that codex.
I feel they would still get their FnP purley as they have no Armor save to fail or be negated to begin with
and only be concerned with Ap1 and AP2, or power wepons, tripping over in dangerous terrain, rending etc..


Unsaved wounds does not mean that you have to fail your armour save. If you don't get an armour save the wound is unsaved too. Unsaved just means, that the wound is actually not saved. If you have no saving throw at all the wound is not saved (=unsaved) too.

that is true but read on FNP till you get to where it says, "Neither can it be used against wounds from AP 1 and AP2 weapons, power wepons and any other wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken...."
it says there armor save not unsaved.

look i may be looking too into it but that just how I interpret it

[Culven]

I feel they would still get their FnP purley as they have no Armor save to fail or be negated to begin with and only be concerned with Ap1 and AP2, or power wepons, tripping over in dangerous terrain, rending etc..
I think you are making more complicated than it is. Just go back to the checklist in my previous post. Whether the model has a Save is irrelevant to whether it can use FnP. FnP can be used against any unSaved wound, that is a wound against which there was no successful Save (whether not available or failed). FnP will then be denied by wounds caused by a weapon which is AP 1 or 2, has specific rules which always deny Armour Saves (Power Weapons, Dangerous Terrain, Wind of Chaos, Perils of the Warp, and so on), or causes Instant Death. IIRC, a Reaper Launcher (S6? AP3?) against Plague Marines (T5) do not meet the criteria for denying FnP as it is not AP1 or 2, it has no rule which states Armour Saves are denied by it, not is it going to cause Instant Death to a Plague Marine.

[sebi81]

that is true but read on FNP till you get to where it says, "Neither can it be used against wounds from AP 1 and AP2 weapons, power wepons and any other wounds against which no armor save can ever be taken...."
it says there armor save not unsaved.

look i may be looking too into it but that just how I interpret it

You just overread the word "ever" you can't use FnP against hits that never let anyone take an armour save. The text doesn't say against weapons that the hit unit can't take an armour save. it says against weapons that no one ever can take an armour save.

Against weapons with AP more than 2 you can take an armour save, so FnP does work, not depending if the unit actually can take an armour save or not.

[Lordgimpet]

no I havent complicated it, it actually gives good cause for AP1 and Ap2 shots to be singled out against creatures that have - for Sv but have an Inv save only

not using FnP isn't just only for wounds that cause instant death they are from wound that negates the armor save,As for the example of the reaper launcher or any weapon that has equal or lower AP, it says in the AP section that the target gets no armor save at all, period. so as you never ever take an armor save if the AP is equal or lower then I feel its negates FnP.
Mind War, Spirit leach Leach, failing difficult terrain test, failing a daemon wepon roll of 1 all negaite FnP
as you don't get an armor save against these. and they are not instant death either. well unless you have 1 wound of course

[Nabterayl]

We're all saying the same thing here. I don't think we need to argue about whose phraseology complicates things when we all agree about what things deny FNP. Culven's checklist isn't the way I like to put it, but it's an accurate description of the rule. Lordgimpet's paragraph works too.

[Duke]

Wow, this thread has gotten more complicated than it needs to be.

Put simply FnP allows you to roll a 4+ in addition to an armour/ invuln. save (Even though that save may have been failed)

Im not going to quote the BRB cause it has already been done. One fun thing is that Marines get FnP even against ap 3 stuff! Suck it Flamestorm

Duke

(PS: My phraseology is bestest!)

[addamsfamily36]

My bad culven, i was having a very slow and not very with it day when i posted that comment regarding toughness.

[Culven]

We're all saying the same thing here. I don't think we need to argue about whose phraseology complicates things when we all agree about what things deny FNP. . .Lordgimpet's paragraph works too.
I disagree. Lordgimpet is claiming that a model with a 3+ Armour Save which has been wounded by an AP3 weapon will not be permitted to attempt Feel No Pain. This is incorrect, and the point against which I am arguing. He then complicated the issue in an attempt to justify why a model with an Armour Save of - would be permitted to use Feel No Pain whereas the model with Armour Save 3+ was not.

[Duke]

I disagree. Lordgimpet is claiming that a model with a 3+ Armour Save which has been wounded by an AP3 weapon will not be permitted to attempt Feel No Pain. This is incorrect, ...

QFT. A model with a 3+ armor save gets FnP against an ap 3 weapon (assuming the ap3 weapon inst twice his strength) so if a marine gets hit by a flame storm cannon (s6 ap3) he loses his 3+ save but can still roll a 4+ fnp

Duke

[lobster-overlord]

We play it that if "that model" would be denied their armor save, then they don't get the FNP. The Death Company getting hit with an AP 3 weapon would not get their FNP because they would never be able to get te armor save against the AP 3 weapon. The wording of the rule does specify "ever" for against other weapons not specifically listed in the rule (such as ap 1 and ap2, power, etc), but we take it to mean on a model by model basis.

We use it that if the model can take their armor save, then they can take teh FNP, but if the weapon in any way denies the model of it's armor, then they don't get the FNP either. But again, that's how WE have opted to play it (usually works in my favor, because, really, how many AP 3 weapons are there?)

John M>

[sebi81]

If you and your group opted so, it's fine. But it's not the wording of the rule.

Ap1 and Ap2 weaponry denies FnP, Ap3 weaponry doesn't. Only weapons/hits that never allow any armour saves deny FnP. The wording clearly implies this. The examples given are ap 1, ap2 and powerweapons, which all don't allow any armour saves. The last half of the sentence just makes clear that any weapons which have similar rules in their codex but aren't actually powerweapons or Ap1 or 2 don't allow FnP either.

And Plague Marines are not the only units which have FnP. What about Gaunts and Deamons of Nurgle for example? The problem are not only Ap3 weapons... If your interpretation of the rules was right, gaunts could only use FnP against lasguns and Plaguebearers would never be allowed to use FnP. It's just not how FnP works. Again, it isn't depending on whether the model actually has an armour save against the wound or not, it just depends on whether the weaponry never under no circumstances allows an armour save or not.

[Lordgimpet]

Seeing your counter points to my interpretation, I have allready covered previously and I dont see the point as do others of repeating myself soo
I sought a higher power, well of sorts. I just researched white dwarf battle reports to find senarios that would bring this discussion to resolution. dispite my interpretations as being valid sadly it is not how the GW HQ staff are playing it. So I'm more than happy to defeat myself in this thread and dispite how I personally feel the rules translate, GW are playing it that FnP is applied even if the save is ignored with weapons whose AP is equal or lower. not factoring AP1 and AP2 of course.

[Cyberscape7]

The easiest way to answer is to just think of the model as a necron. If it takes a wound from a non-power weapon then knock it over and immediatley take your Wbb roll.

[Duke]

What ever helps you think of the rule right...

[incenerate101]

This thread is getting redundant.

[sebi81]

Yeah, sorry. Just tried to enlighten everyone...

[wolflold]

Anyone else who wants to repeat the things that already said over 25246 times? Don't you read the older posts?

[The Dinosaur]

did you hear blood angels are getting released in april?

[Commissar Lewis]

I hear water is pretty wet.

[addamsfamily36]

We play it that if "that model" would be denied their armor save, then they don't get the FNP. The Death Company getting hit with an AP 3 weapon would not get their FNP because they would never be able to get te armor save against the AP 3 weapon. The wording of the rule does specify "ever" for against other weapons not specifically listed in the rule (such as ap 1 and ap2, power, etc), but we take it to mean on a model by model basis.

We use it that if the model can take their armor save, then they can take teh FNP, but if the weapon in any way denies the model of it's armor, then they don't get the FNP either. But again, that's how WE have opted to play it (usually works in my favor, because, really, how many AP 3 weapons are there?)

John M>


that is fine if you have decided to play it that way. but at a tournament, or jsut any other gw or club thats not the case.

I suggest buying if you don;t have it already or jsut looking at even the blood angels white dwarf battle report.

Flamestorm cannon flames some plague marines. ap3, but got their Fnp.