Limit on SM chapters

[Pendragon38]

So if the nids or the crons be come a major threat, can we release the shackles on the1,000 SM limit to deal with the threat.....Y or N ??

[fuzzbuket]

? so if there were a lot of nids would space mahreens fight them? yes and the ADmech make new chapters when there not building neat toys :D

[Pendragon38]

No, I'm talking about taking the chapters limit of Sms off, like the great crusade were the SM were millions of them that went to war

[Leez]

If they did I wonder how they'd spin the Ultramarines and Ultramarine line-toting chapters reactions to the decision by the Lords of Terra. After all Guilliman had a Primarch sized hissy fit when the other Primarchs were less then enthused about Codex Astartes if not out right refusal to follow it. As I recall it was set to become a civil war until the other Primarchs decided to follow it or at least lie to his face about their intentions to follow it.

[DrLove42]

Yeah but primarches are dead. Or at least MIA at present.

How do you see Dante responding to being told he's now in charge of the Flesh Tearers and all his crazed successor chapters?

What would Calgar do in response to the blastpheming agains Guillimans codex?

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, Space Marines and the Imperium now follow the Codex Astartes, Guilliman´s guide, like the Emperor himself´s word, so I really doubt they should disobey it...

Unless the situations gets really, really worse... Think that there´s only ten thousand space marines (1000 chapters, 100 marines per chapter), but there are also millions of Imperial Guard´soldiers ready to die and support marines...

[ColCorbane]

Think that there´s only ten thousand space marines (1000 chapters, 100 marines per chapter)

It's a 1000 marines per chapter mate.

[Valkerie]

Actually, several chapters already exceed 1,000 Marines. Black Templars and Space Wolves come to mind right off hand, and I'm sure there are others I can't remember right now. Of course, 'officially', those chapters follow the rules when they report their strength to the Imperium. They just seem to 'overlook' the extra troops they have.:)

And somewhere I remember reading that even the Codex following chapters exceed 1,000 when you figure in vehicle crews, and trainees.

[fuzzbuket]

well istn that the reason of all the diffrent foundings the admech? taking a hissy fit at the 1000 limit so they make MORE chapters :D


(oh im pretty sure the grey plastic unboxed/unpainted marines exceed 1000 in some peoples cases :p)

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, even being in a chapter more than 1000 marines... What I said is still valid hehehe

[gwensdad]

The fluff says there's 1000 chapters, but with the confusion of the Imperium with departments/organizations/etc not talking to each other there could be 2000+ chapters and nobody would know.

[MarneusCalgar]

Yeah, and maybe more than 20 of that number can be more loyalists to Chaos now...

It´s the "problem" of using so big numbers to describe all in the fluff

[Nabterayl]

I don't think the thousand-chapter limit is any kind of prescription. Even if it were, who would be able to monitor it? I've always read that as, "there happen to be roughly 1,000 chapters at any given time."

[Duke]

I think it is more a general idea of how many marines there are out there, just to give us a feeling of how few of them there are.

Duke

[Impactor]

By the book ( Guillys book) 1000 Chapters, 1000 SM per Chapter, then there should be no more than 1'000'000 active Space Marines.

But its a guide, as new SM are being trained all the time, and some chapters simply dont abide by the rules, see the Space wolves and Black Templers for instance.

Not to mention no one really knows how many SM chapters there are, it could be 1000 +/-

So the true number of SM in the galaxy could be 1'000'000 =/-


If the threat was grave enough im pretty sure even Guilly would have seen the need for more SM. for example:
If the human race's survival hinges on more SM, then you would have more created.

Plans for what is done with the extra SM can be worked out later. breaking them into chapters is one answer to the problem. One of the major rules of the codex astartes is to stop anyone person/group/council etc... having control of a legion.

Anyhows, surely the bigger problem would be creating the SM required? theres a lead time on these guys you know!

[Denzark]

By the book ( Guillys book) 1000 Chapters, 1000 SM per Chapter, then there should be no more than 1'000'000 active Space Marines.

Not strictly true - When the codex was issued, there was still only the first founding - second and subsequent foundings take the figure to the 'today' (41st millenium) figure of a thousand chapters.

Presumably there would be no limit on the amount of chapters allowed in codex astartes. The 1000 strong limit on marines in a chapter was to make no one chapter unstoppable if it turned traitor - unlike the leigon sized forces that broke free and headed for the Eye of Terror.

Presumably the technology for creating new chapters must be restricted - no love between adeptus astartes and adeptus mechanicus, otherwise they would be banging out new foundings all the time. Gene seed is needed to create new chapters, and presumably the ability to create zygotes from scratch (the progenoid glands) must be extremly rare and guarded by the chapters - else rebel governors, traitor legions, tyranids etc would all be banging out extra super duper troopers in their millions as soon as they got their hands on one dead marine body.

Also bearing in mind that only a few male children are suitable candidates physiologically and psychologically to accept the implants.

And, to tell the truth, there would be no benefit to making such disparate self contained forces band tgether in super chapters (legions if you will) just to face down tyranids/necrons/black crusades whatever - Its the number of marines that has effect, not the number of marine higher commands.

Unless there is some high Lord of Terrra planning a recession caused defence cut so has planned to amalgamate a couple fo chapters - save on chapter master pay, that sort of thing...;)

[Lord_Crull]

By the book ( Guillys book) 1000 Chapters, 1000 SM per Chapter, then there should be no more than 1'000'000 active Space Marines.

But its a guide, as new SM are being trained all the time, and some chapters simply dont abide by the rules, see the Space wolves and Black Templers for instance.

Not to mention no one really knows how many SM chapters there are, it could be 1000 +/-

So the true number of SM in the galaxy could be 1'000'000 =/-


If the threat was grave enough im pretty sure even Guilly would have seen the need for more SM. for example:
If the human race's survival hinges on more SM, then you would have more created.

Plans for what is done with the extra SM can be worked out later. breaking them into chapters is one answer to the problem. One of the major rules of the codex astartes is to stop anyone person/group/council etc... having control of a legion.

Anyhows, surely the bigger problem would be creating the SM required? theres a lead time on these guys you know!

Not quite. While Guilliman decreed 1000 Marine per chapter he never said anything about there being only a 1000 chapters. Remember,the Second Founding had only about 20-30 chapters made. There have been sucessive foundings over the millenia wuith more Space Marines.

If we need more Space Marines then we shall simply make more foundings. Simple.


If they did I wonder how they'd spin the Ultramarines and Ultramarine line-toting chapters reactions to the decision by the Lords of Terra. After all Guilliman had a Primarch sized hissy fit when the other Primarchs were less then enthused about Codex Astartes if not out right refusal to follow it. As I recall it was set to become a civil war until the other Primarchs decided to follow it or at least lie to his face about their intentions to follow it.

Again, not quite. Guilliman had his support among the Primarchs, Corax supported it and the Blood Angels Legion emrbaced it. among others.

[Denzark]

Crull did you actually read what I put 1 post above you?

[Lord_Crull]

Crull did you actually read what I put 1 post above you?

I did. I just like restating it.

[Just_Me]

The 1,000 marines per chapter limit could perhaps, be lifted (assuming a way could found to circumvent the raw inertia of tradition in the Imperium), but (as several people have stated) the 1,000 chapters number seems to be an organic cap that has come about naturally. Simply put, the creation of a space marine is not a simple process, not everyone can become a marine, they must have both the right genetic compatibility and certain basic levels of physical and mental ability to actually undergo the transformation, and they must actually be located by chapter recruiters. As the ~1,000,000 marines number seems to have held true for almost the full 10,000 years of the Imperium (new chapters being formed to replace lost ones), there is every reason to think that the Imperium's human population can only support that many due both to issues of recruitment and physical compatibility.

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, the thruth is that maybe ALL chapters have more than 1000 marines each... Cause they even die, so the training must be aways done for new recruits... And not all the recruits pass the geneseed tests...

[Pendragon38]

The DA background talks about how there order that was still young enough can still get the procedure,while the older ones can be augmented to almost SM strength.

[Tynskel]

The 1000 chapter limit comes from the figure of 1,000,000 Space Marines. Since each chapter is ~1000 Marines, there are ~1000 chapters.

There has pretty much been 1,000,000 Space Marines since the beginning of the Imperium-- the number fluctuates, but probably no more than 10% in either direction. (Probably more like 5% fluctuation).

There are over 1000 known chapters--- but that is due to some chapters get wiped out, and eventually get replaced by a new chapter.

[Old_Paladin]

Here's some fun facts for everyone.
One of the old White Dwarf's (around issues 195-200) had an article about naming your own chapter; and listed every chapter even mentioned by GW, which came to around 170.

Lexicanum's list of loyalist chapters is currently at 244.
A great deal of these chapters have no history at all; they are often just a name and armour colour, some also have a chapter symbol; many are just a chapter name with no visual information about the chapter at all.


Over two-thirds of space marines have never, even once, been talked about at all; in any official fluff or printed material.
With that much unknown or undocumented material, it is pretty pointless in saying we need more marines to fill up space.

[Javin]

Many chapters have over 1000 Battle Brothers. The Codex states there is no limit to the scout company. I think that is why the Ultramarines are never below strength. They must have about 100000000000000 scouts just waiting for a battle brother to die.

If there was an extreme need for more Space Marines the High Lords could just commission more SM chapters. Remember there are roughly 1000 chapters. I am sure this number has gone above and below the 1000 mark on more than one occasion.

[MarneusCalgar]

Many chapters have over 1000 Battle Brothers. The Codex states there is no limit to the scout company. I think that is why the Ultramarines are never below strength. They must have about 100000000000000 scouts just waiting for a battle brother to die.

If there was an extreme need for more Space Marines the High Lords could just commission more SM chapters. Remember there are roughly 1000 chapters. I am sure this number has gone above and below the 1000 mark on more than one occasion.

Totally agree

[Duke]

One thing i was just thinking about is that all the tanks and t-hawks/storm ravens are driven by battle brothers, so we know there is way more than 100 marines in a chapter

Duke

[Melissia]

One thing i was just thinking about is that all the tanks and t-hawks/storm ravens are driven by battle brothers, so we know there is way more than 100 marines in a chapter

Duke

Yes, there's 1000. There are dedicated companies which are the ones that drive the tanks and fly the thunderhawks.

[Nabterayl]

Well, somewhat more than 1000. A full-strength company consists of ten squads of ten marines, plus a captain, plus a command squad, plus a company chaplain seconded from the chapter reclusiam and a company apothecary seconded from the chapter apothecarion, for a total strength of 107 to 108 battle-brothers. That's 963 marines, assuming I-IX companies are at full strength. If we add a scout company of 100 bodies, that adds another ten sergeants, a captain, command squad, apothecary, and chaplain, for another 17-18 battle-brothers. On top of this there's the chapter master, the chief apothecary, the chief librarian, the master of sanctity, and the master of the forge, for another five battle-brothers. The chapter master will often be attended by a dedicated honor guard, the apothecarion will usually have a staff larger than ten plus the chief apothecary, the librarium will often have a dozen or so battle-brothers, the reclusium will often have a staff larger than ten plus the master of sanctity, and the forge will often have a dozen or so techmarines, for a total body count, at full strength, of a dozen or so over 1,000 battle-brothers. A few chapters, such as the Ultramarines, even have dedicated fleet personnel, which raises the paper strength of the chapter even further.

That said, it is true that in most chapters, line infantry crew the starships, the Thunderhawks, the armored fighting vehicles, etc. (not all chapters have the Ultramarine-ish luxury of having even small dedicated naval and armored commands). It's an amusing exercise to take a single battle company, transported in a single strike cruiser with no escort, and map out the various ways in which they can deploy while still having the capability to bang out in a single evac flight. For instance, out of 107 marines (10 squads of 10, plus a captain, plus a four-man command squad, plus an apothecary, plus a chaplain), you might look like this:
10 battle-brothers crew the strike cruiser.
12 battle-brothers crew three Thunderhawk gunships.
85 battle-brothers drop via drop pod or Thunderhawk, with no armored support.
Or you might do something like this:
10 battle-brothers crew the strike cruiser.
54 battle-brothers ride in six Rhinos.
6 battle-brothers drive the six Rhinos.
6 battle-brothers crew three Thunderhawk transporters.
4 battle-brothers crew one Thunderhawk gunship.
27 battle-brothers drop via drop pod or Thunderhawk.
No matter how you slice it, the entire strike force is never on the ground at once. If you want an entire battle company to deploy, you bring in squads from the reserve companies to crew the ship(s), fly the Thunderhawks, drive your Rhinos, and drive your forge support (this is what Melissia was alluding to, and in fact providing this sort of support for the battle companies is one of the major roles of the reserve companies).

[Old_Paladin]

That said, it is true that in most chapters, line infantry crew the starships, (not all chapters have the Ultramarine-ish luxury of having even small dedicated naval).

Actually, almost no chapter crews their ships with battle-brothers.
Some chapters like Ultra's will have imperial navy crews.
Chapters that come from an oceanic planet (like the Space wolves); select experienced sailors and their families to become generational bondsmen.

The majority of chapters simply turn the failed recrutes (that still survive), into crew and servitors for their ships. No point in wasting the 7ft tall superhuman with 20+ years of combat experience, just because his black carapace refused to bond.


As for the 1000 marine limit; doesn't the Codex Astartes actually say that the limit of a chapter is 1000 Battle-brothers?
In which case, the extra marines (captians, librarians, chaplains, etc.) aren't technically considered 'battle brothers' just as scouts who haven't finished full indoctrination and been gifted with power armour aren't considered battle-brothers (even if they are physically as capable, and many will be just as skilled, near the end).

[Nabterayl]

Actually, almost no chapter crews their ships with battle-brothers.
Some chapters like Ultra's will have imperial navy crews.
Chapters that come from an oceanic planet (like the Space wolves); select experienced sailors and their families to become generational bondsmen.

The majority of chapters simply turn the failed recrutes (that still survive), into crew and servitors for their ships. No point in wasting the 7ft tall superhuman with 20+ years of combat experience, just because his black carapace refused to bond.


As for the 1000 marine limit; doesn't the Codex Astartes actually say that the limit of a chapter is 1000 Battle-brothers?
In which case, the extra marines (captians, librarians, chaplains, etc.) aren't technically considered 'battle brothers' just as scouts who haven't finished full indoctrination and been gifted with power armour aren't considered battle-brothers (even if they are physically as capable, and many will be just as skilled, near the end).
I don't mean crew entirely, obviously. Even a few battle-brother officers and engineers, however, is a big drain on a strike force, percentage-wise. As I recall, a full officer corps for a strike cruiser is ten marines, which is a big deal on a ship that can only carry a single company (not, of course, that you'd have to leave your strike cruiser fully staffed necessarily).

The reference to the Ultramarines was to brothers such as Sgt. Chronus and Adm. Tiberius, both of whom are known examples of Ultramarines whose only job is to crew armored fighting vehicles and starships, respectively - an arrangement I've never heard of outside the Ultramarines.

[Duke]

Not that I am disagreeing, but can anyone find where it says that the reserve companies are the ones that drive the rhinos/land raiders/ predators etc.? I can see from looking at the chapter organization charts that those battle brothers are included in their chapter. Also, in one of the blood angel books it talks about how onw of the guys thought about going into "crewing" for a predator. I'm just curious here cause I have never heard that it is the reserve company marines (citations are best, thx)

Duke

[Nabterayl]

IA2. Consider for instance page 3:


The crews for armoured vehicles are all full Space Marines, and are often referred to as Custodians of a vehicle. Most crews are drawn from the Tactical squads of the Chapters [sic] Sixth and Seventh Companies. All Space Marines have some training in the use of armoured vehicles. Driving Rhinos and armoured formation tactics are part of a recruit's basic training. Later, Space Marines specialise in armoured operations and tactics, being trained in the operation of larger vehicles and basic maintenance. All Space Marine vehicles are fitted with spinal interfaces which a Custodian plugs into their powered armour and Black Carapace allowing a Space Marine to become part of his vehicle, giving him an intuitive 'feel' for a vehicles [sic] controls and systems.

[AirHorse]

I know that two of the reserve companies get specialist training, one in bikes and one in landspeeders.

In brothers of the snake the rhino a squad gets given is piloted by one of the squad members themselves, though it made sense for their mission, which was recon, might not be the same if it was a battlefield deployment. Also, they might not be the most codex chapter ever either :P

[Hunter]

Many chapters have over 1000 Battle Brothers. The Codex states there is no limit to the scout company. I think that is why the Ultramarines are never below strength. They must have about 100000000000000 scouts just waiting for a battle brother to die.

If there was an extreme need for more Space Marines the High Lords could just commission more SM chapters. Remember there are roughly 1000 chapters. I am sure this number has gone above and below the 1000 mark on more than one occasion.

i was going to mention the scout company as well.
so in theory even the Ultramarines could at times be over the 1k cap depending on low casualties/successful recruitment drive.

add to that it takes about 20 years to make a a new space marine , more if as a scout ones not particularly remarkable.

as mention ,in theory as a crisis occurs a "healthy" chapter could could go over the cap by rapid scout promotion assuming ther are sufficient power armor available.

later on the extra marines could be reassingd as a new successor chapter.

[miteyheroes]

I know that two of the reserve companies get specialist training, one in bikes and one in landspeeders.

All Marines are trained in using bikes and landspeeders.
They learn to use bikes in the 10th (Scout) Company, and using bikes is included in the regular training for the entire 6th (Tactical) Reserve Company and all Assault Marines (so that's some marines in 2nd, 3rd and 4th Companies and everyone in 8th (Assault) Reserve Company).
Presumably all Marines first train in using land speeders when they're serving as Scouts, and learn how to use Land Speeder Storms. They get further training whilst they're serving as Assault Marines (which they do after being Scouts and Devastators but before being Tactical Marines). The 7th (Tactical) Reserve Company also has access to them.

The figure of "1,000 Marines Per Company" is just an approximation: 10 companies (including the Scout Company) each with 100 marines = 1,000.
Like the "1,000 Chapters" number it's really not precise. It doesn't take into account deaths, for example. Or officers. And 10th (Scout) Company is actually often less than 100 strong.

[Freefall945]

The impression one gains from the fluff is that space marines do not die often, so there's no need for a huge scout company or 'talent pool' to rapidly refill the ranks. A battle in which a company of space marines loses a whole tactical squad and, perhaps, a chaplain, is a heartbreaking tragedy for the marines of the lore. Alternatively, it is a breathtaking victory for a shrewed tabletop general. It's necessary to disassociate the table-top casualty rate from the fluff expectation of space marine turnover.

[eldargal]

This is a point that I feel is often neglected, and from memory Jervis Johnson mentioned it in a WD article in the last few months, that when a model is removed from the game it is not necessarily killed outright, but rather 'incapacitated'. So while Space Marines can 'die' quite readily in the game, in 'fluff-reality' they are merely wounded or forced to withdraw etc.


The impression one gains from the fluff is that space marines do not die often, so there's no need for a huge scout company or 'talent pool' to rapidly refill the ranks. A battle in which a company of space marines loses a whole tactical squad and, perhaps, a chaplain, is a heartbreaking tragedy for the marines of the lord. Alternatively, it is a breathtaking victory for a shrewed tabletop general. It's necessary to disassociate the table-top casualty rate from the fluff expectation of space marine turnover.

[AirHorse]

You also have to remember that a 40k skirmish is also a very brief encounter in what can be a far more extended period of fighting. A space marine may be down for the brief time the skirmish takes place, but then he can be back to a decent fighting strength in absolutely no time.

[heartbitt]

This is a point that I feel is often neglected, and from memory Jervis Johnson mentioned it in a WD article in the last few months, that when a model is removed from the game it is not necessarily killed outright, but rather 'incapacitated'..

In fact, is in the Rulebook page 24, Remove Casualties, last paragraph...
Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked uncouncious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapicated in other some way. In any case, they are no longer fit to partcipate in the battle.

[eldargal]

Yep, its in the rules and yet a lot of people still insist that 'such and such is weak compared to the fluff because my thingy can kill it too easily', or whatever.:rolleyes:


In fact, is in the Rulebook page 24, Remove Casualties, last paragraph...
Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked uncouncious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapicated in other some way. In any case, they are no longer fit to partcipate in the battle.

[Javin]

I personally think the Imperium has a larger number than 1000 chapters. There is always mention of 20 chapters guarding this place, and 30 guarding that. Just the eye itself supposedly has over 100 chapters dedicated to its defense. Which may be why all of the Black crusades have ended in complete failure. I am sure the billions of IG, Sisters, GKs, and Fleet have made their impact as well.

Just like in real life, no one tells their full strength. I think there are many more marines around than have been mentioned.

[rkiviman]

In the background it says the number of chapter's is around 1000,but I don't remember seeing where it says that their is a definite limit to 1000 SM chapters. The only limit to SM in numbers is the number of marines which is supposed to be a 10000. It even makes a point of how hard it is to keep track of all the numbers over the centuries. I mean how many of these chapters are fleet bound and mobile, making it even harder to track them.

[Pendragon38]

I'm talking about swelling from 1,000 to 10,000 SM strong or more if need be to deal with a major threat that would other wise destroy everything. like an end game to the Galaxey

[miteyheroes]

I'm talking about swelling from 1,000 to 10,000 SM strong or more if need be to deal with a major threat that would other wise destroy everything. like an end game to the Galaxey

The whole reason why they have the limit of 1,000 is because 10,000 SM controlled by 1 man is dangerous. I'm sure that the High Lords of Terra wouldn't think "Oh no, there's a terrible threat to the Imperium. Let's respond by allowing the Marines to unleash a second Horus Heresy!"

They'd be more likely to make new SM Chapters than to allow the existing Chapters to expand.

[eldargal]

I would think it far more likely that there would be another founding of chapters before letting the existing chapters expand their size back to Legion scale and give even more power to a Chapter Master. Even putting aside the Heresy, the Badab War would have highlighted the need to keep individual chapter masters under control.
From memory those chapters that are alrady above Codex mandated size are the more splintered/independent chapters that are LESS likely to band together in revolt. I'm thinking of the Black Templar Crusades and Space Wolf Great Companies. This is probably the main reason they are tolerated to be oversize.

[Baron Spikey]

I'd just like to clear up a few misconceptions I noticed, it was 20 Chapters Founded to guard the Eye of Terror (the Astartes Praeus I believe) of which only 18 still remain, 1 chapter was destroyed and the other turned renegade.

It wasn't just Guilliman who supported his Codex amongst the Primarchs, both Corax and the Khan also agreed with it's implementation- basically it was a 50/50 split but with Guilliman having done more than Dorn, Russ, or Vulkan in the Scouring he'd have had a lot of support from the Imperium itself as well.

A lot of Chapters are rarely ever at full strength, an inconstant recruitment rate coupled with almost continuous battles is the reasoning for this, the Salamanders for instance are the polar opposite of the BT/SW they're never at 1,000 marines- their organisation plus the extremely low recruitment rate means that they rarely top 800 total.

[Daemonette666]

Well, Space Marines and the Imperium now follow the Codex Astartes, Guilliman´s guide, like the Emperor himself´s word, so I really doubt they should disobey it...

Unless the situations gets really, really worse... Think that there´s only ten thousand space marines (1000 chapters, 100 marines per chapter), but there are also millions of Imperial Guard´soldiers ready to die and support marines...
1000 space marines per chapter (usually less because of losses in battle and the need to restock with more initiates), and 1000 or more chapters (since it does mention that The Imperium does not know for certain how many chapters are still out there). That would make it roughly 1,000,000 space marines in the galaxy. In the scale of things, it is really not that many.

The IG and PDF forces have trillions of troops, that is 1 followed by 18 zeros (I use the Australian/English standard for trilliion not the US). Add to this the rogue trader fleets, Arbites, the Adep Maechanicus, and Sister of Battle, and the enemies of man kind still outnumber imperial forces. which have to be spread out to cover the whole galaxy.

When the nids attacked Ultramar, the ultrasmurfs had to get help from their fellow chapters as many of their companies were away on missions. It was the Imperial fleet that saved the day. And to this day, Ultramar has to be continually cleansed because of Tyranid spores are still popping up out of the ground. Damn Nid roaches are had to keep down. LOL

Sugestion - you have forces from more than one chapter, say 2 subfounding chapters that are located near each other and have a history of co-operating together on large operations. It would also make a nice contrast as 2 contrasting coloured chapters charge across the MASSIVE table you will need for well over 1000 space marines and their vehicles, not to mention the ammount of Nids you will need to equal the points value of that many space marines.

Good luck with the project.