Are Banshees TOO cheap?

[Cyberscape7]

Interesting story, I just bought some banshees after a bit of pondering if I should. then I realised something. If you have a ten man banshee squad with exarch and either mirrorswords or executioner PLUS both exarch powers it makes the squad cheaper then a terminator squad with no upgrades. Then I did a few simulations. against a terminator squad at half AND full strength the banshees obliterated them. Basically banshees are able to tear down a squad that is worth double the amount their worth whilst taking very little casualties.
However this experiment was done half the time with the terminators having been doomed so that may have affected it. But still it seems banshees are EXTREMELEY cheap for the damage they can do(not that Im complaining) who else agrees?

[DrLove42]

I don't personally. Compare them to bloodletters. Bloodletters have a power weapon and high(ish) init. As well as a Invuln and deep strike. And they're not much different in price

A termy can shoot which a banshee can't
Power fist on Termy is dangerous to tanks which bansees aren't
A banshee hasn't got an invuln and has a worse armour save

Maybe a banshee is better in combat, but a termy is a more rounded unit, able to shrug off nearly all fire, return it and kick *** in most combats.

Also a Banshee is only S3, so they pack less of a punch, even if it is a insanely fast, power weapon punch it doesn't hurt as much

Edit - Oh yeah and they're T3. So they get wounded easier

[AbeSapien]

S3 means they are rubbish without a farseer Dooming the unit they charge. That adds an extra 80 points onto the unit.
They will get shot as they run or as they jump out of their transport. 4+ save and T3 means they die very quickly.

Scorpions will inflict more wounds because they are S4. This means that you will generally fail more saves than the Banshees are capable of inflicting. And then add a Dooming Farseer...
Plus scorpins can threaten tanks and can infiltrate and have a 3+ save making them more servivable.

And most terminators have storm shields these days.

[DrLove42]

Scorpions are balenced as they don't have power weapons so though they get more attatcks, and cause a greater % of wounds the bad guys get armour saves. Scorps are better against hordes with lower saves, but banshees are better at the big armoured dudes.

Can be rebalenced giving the banshee's exarch mirror swords for more attacks, and the scorp a biting blade or power fist

[DarkLink]

Banshees are designed to kill terminators. Saying they're too cheap because they can easily kill their points in Terminators is like saying that meltaguns are too cheap because they only cost ten points but can kill 200+ points worth of vehicle in one shot. It's just a bad comparison.

[Laughing God]

Personally, I include at least 10 Banshee's in every list I create for Eldar. Do I place them on the ground, force them to foot slog and get ripped apart by ranged weaponry? Uhm, no...

They are always placed in a Wave Serpent, and they can usually count on getting the initial charge thanks to this comfy ride.

Yes, they'll rip apart terminator armor. Just pray your opponent fails their 3+ or 5+ invul saves.

You have to pick and choose who the Banshee's will strike. They are excellent when matched up against the right units. And the same can be said for every Eldar unit. They excel in certain situations, yet can be destroyed in - well - most.

The strength of the Banshee is not in the figure itself, but the person controlling the figure. If you make silly mistakes, bad placement, poor decisions, etc - they will NOT earn their points. You must pick and choose at the start of the game. The ultimate goal is getting the Serpent close enough to unload its cargo, and letting the girls do their job afterwards. But, you must be willing to lose them afterwards. Once they are out of the Serpent, they are nothing more than easy targets.

I'll admit, the Scorpions may be more balanced, but they will not eat through opposing units in the same way a unit of Banshee's will. Better survivability? Sure. But as far as raw killing power, the Banshee's win that fight, hands down. Do you run Scorpions head first into a unit of Terminators and expect to win the assault 1st turn? ....no. Can you do this with Banshee's? Yes. Have I done this with Banshee's? More times than I can count, I assure you.

10 basic Banshees, with 2 CC weapons, 1 attack bonus, 1 for charge = 40 attacks. Against basic marines, you'll hit on 4+ (50%), and then wound on a 5+ (33%). That is still 6 or 7 armor ignoring wounds, and that is without the assistance of a Farseer and 'Doom'. That is a crippling / killing blow to every vanilla marine unit out there.

Are Banshee's too cheap? No. They succumb to bullets rather too easily. Put some on the table with no protection and see how far they get.

If you want killing power almost equivalent, and do not want to spend the points on a Wave Serpent, try out Harlequins with a Shadowseer. The seer will eliminate long range weaponry from mowing them down, and they are capable of killing mass numbers just like Banshee's thanks to rending weapons, AND Furious Assault / Charge. And - do not forget about their fusion pistols. You can run one or two of those in a unit as well.

[Laughing God]

like saying that meltaguns are too cheap because they only cost ten points but can kill 200+ points worth of vehicle in one shot. It's just a bad comparison.

I killed a Land Raider with a Bright Lance once. Guess they'll have to bump up the point cost due to this. :D

[DrLove42]

As if 45 points for a weapon wasn't enough :p.

When a vendetta costs 700 pts to make up for the 3 land raider killers it carries I'll think banshees are cheap...:p

[Old_Paladin]

Isn't this the whole point of the entire style of the Eldar army.
Everything is a specialist unit; very good against its main target but not so great against everyother kind of target. (with exarches being able to either further compound the units style or make him/her deal with different targets).

Banshees are great against termies, but what if the opponent doesn't have a unit like that. Are they undercosted when forced to fight IG blobs, or ork boys, or kroot?


LaughingGod, you did your math wrong: 10 banshees have 30 attacks (1 base, +1 extra weapon, +1 charge = 3); although that still makes 5 dead MEQ's.

[fuzzbuket]

why do people think S3 T3 4+ is soo bad its a 1/3 to hit 1/3 to wound and youll pass 1/2 of your saves,

gahh MEQ has killed my brain cells must..stop..playing...blood angels...and...grey..knights...

play space hulk and by the end of 5 games youll thin a 5+ sv is very good :D

[Chuck777]

Banshees are incredibly fragile. You basically *need* a Wave Serpent for them, so that's goin to jack up the cost of the unit by 100-140-ish points. Then you will probably want a Farseer in the army as well, following the Banshees around dooming their targets (80+ points for that). So even minimally, you're looking at 180 extra points right there.

Don't get me wrong Banshees are *amazing* but, just like an eldar unit, they are incredibly fragile and need support.

[BuFFo]

Interesting story, I just bought some banshees after a bit of pondering if I should. then I realised something. If you have a ten man banshee squad with exarch and either mirrorswords or executioner PLUS both exarch powers it makes the squad cheaper then a terminator squad with no upgrades. Then I did a few simulations. against a terminator squad at half AND full strength the banshees obliterated them. Basically banshees are able to tear down a squad that is worth double the amount their worth whilst taking very little casualties.
However this experiment was done half the time with the terminators having been doomed so that may have affected it. But still it seems banshees are EXTREMELEY cheap for the damage they can do(not that Im complaining) who else agrees?

Banshees are strength 3.

This makes them too costly, easily.

[Cyberscape7]

Very valid and reasonable points I must say. Alright then, well now I am going to be using banshees in pretty much every game I play from now on and have a smug look on my face whenever an opponent asks how many points their worth. :D

[Laughing God]

Banshees are strength 3.

This makes them too costly, easily.

Yeah, who cares about abilities, or combinations. Banshees have STR 3, so they are crap...

:rolleyes:

Wow, basing an ELDAR unit on their STR stat alone. Sounds like the thought process of a SM player. Something I would never advise to ANYONE, that is for sure.



Base 3 STR Eldar units:

Farseer
Warlock
Autarch
Dire Avenger
Banshee
Fire Dragon
Scorpions
Dark Reapers
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders
Shining Spears
Rangers
Guardians
Guardian Jetbikes
Harlequins
Eldrad Ulthran
Prince Yriel


Yep, big list of junk there.

HAHAHA

[jmboland]

Well I dont think your comparison is fair to either side. First off, assuming that you are going to have the termies doomed means that you have to add the price of the farseer to the banshee squad. Also, assuming that doom will go off is a big assumption.

Also, banshees really need a transport to be effective. Again, add that to the price of banshees. While terminators dont necisarily need a transport.

And it really depends on what type of terminator squad. Sure if you are assualting a tactical termie squad with banshees, the banshees will probably win. But substitute the tactical termies for ssth termies? fugggettaboutit.

Banshees are the right price, because like everything else in the eldar codex, it needs to work in concert with other units to be truly effective.

[BuFFo]

Yeah, who cares about abilities, or combinations. Banshees have STR 3, so they are crap...

:rolleyes:

Wow, basing an ELDAR unit on their STR stat alone. Sounds like the thought process of a SM player. Something I would never advise to ANYONE, that is for sure.



Base 3 STR Eldar units:

Farseer
Warlock
Autarch
Dire Avenger
Banshee
Fire Dragon
Scorpions
Dark Reapers
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders
Shining Spears
Rangers
Guardians
Guardian Jetbikes
Harlequins
Eldrad Ulthran
Prince Yriel


Yep, big list of junk there.

HAHAHA

You sure do try hard to be sarcastic. :confused:

Welcome to BoLs!

[SandWyrm]

Banshees seem to be costed about right for a unit that will kill just about anything in combat and then be vulnerable to return fire.

Had a unit of Banshees kill a Sanguinary Guard squad of mine last game I played. They then died to the heavy flamers on my speeders. :)

[jmboland]

yeh im not sure if eldar have a unit, maybe wraithguard, that are comparable to termies. Usually eldar stuff just blow their load then die, whereas termies are usually more tactical and more surviveable. I only say maybe wraithguard just because of the survivability but they also dont really compare because of their high points, short ranged guns, and decent melee ability.

[scadugenga]

Yeah, who cares about abilities, or combinations. Banshees have STR 3, so they are crap...

:rolleyes:

Wow, basing an ELDAR unit on their STR stat alone. Sounds like the thought process of a SM player. Something I would never advise to ANYONE, that is for sure.



Base 3 STR Eldar units:

Farseer
Warlock
Autarch
Dire Avenger
Banshee
Fire Dragon
Scorpions
Dark Reapers
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders
Shining Spears
Rangers
Guardians
Guardian Jetbikes
Harlequins
Eldrad Ulthran
Prince Yriel


Yep, big list of junk there.

HAHAHA

Um...Buffo plays DE. So he might understand a little bit about St. 3.

Swing & a miss! :)


10 basic Banshees, with 2 CC weapons, 1 attack bonus, 1 for charge = 40 attacks. Against basic marines, you'll hit on 4+ (50%), and then wound on a 5+ (33%). That is still 6 or 7 armor ignoring wounds, and that is without the assistance of a Farseer and 'Doom'. That is a crippling / killing blow to every vanilla marine unit out there.

You're giving Banshees Scorpion attacks. ;P 10 basic Banshees have 30 attacks on the charge. (1 base +1 for PS/SP, +1 for charge)

As a looooong time eldar player, I've run the banshee vs scorpion math vs. meq and they pretty much equal out depending on how you kit out the exarch. Banshees do run the curve against 2+ though. ;)


A termy can shoot which a banshee can't

Um. They do have the nifty Str. 4 AP5 pistol you know. It's not *just* for show ;P

And the Xena TWP (tm) spinny throw-y thing the exarch can get. You know, this editions version of Web of Skulls. Str. 3 AP2 3 shots. And it's a power weapon to boot!

Now, Warehouse 13 calls!

[murrburger]

In 5th edition, it's all about unit durability in CC and out of CC. Even if the Banshees make the enemy flee, they'll probably just get shot up and die.

They are very expensive with Doom support and transport, and are hard to justify as a 'hammer' unit.

[RocketRollRebel]

Banshees are sweet but there is nothing in that book that even resembles undercosted.

[BuFFo]

I have personally seen a squad of Banshees (around 5 - 7 banshees, I forget the number) fail to hurt Devastators because of the 5+ needed to wound, and in turn get killed and run away. This happens more often than not that I have seen, and in turn the Eldar player will not take Banshees anymore. They can have as many gimicky rules, but when you need 5's to wound, ugh, it is just sad.

[wolflold]

I'm playing against Eldar for at least 10 years now and banshees can be a real *****! They seem under costed for having power weapons, fleet, always strike first and now the combo with doom makes em real powerfull, but they can be countered! Just stay out of there way, shoot the transport, and a good old (heavy) flamer is something Eldar fear! Just lure them out and hide a Land Speeder with heavy flamer and counter attack and its bye bye banshees :D

Also comparing armies is a waste of time, you have to look at an army as a whole not just per unit. They way i look at it Eldar realy can use a boost in rules (and im a Space Wolves player), they aren't good at shooting and assaulting isn't realy their thing either. What i mean is the have usualy have only 1 good assault unit and when it dies they lose every assault, same for a shooting unit, Eldar is average in everything.

[DrLove42]

Um. They do have the nifty Str. 4 AP5 pistol you know. It's not *just* for show ;P


Never fired their pistols! At 12" range unless i know i'm within 6" of the enemy I always fleet them to get as many into combat as I can.

As for Eldar being average i agree we need a new codex soon, not as much as our dark kindred or a few other armies but we do need one to level it out. A simple repointing on units would do, to put us off for a while.

And that long list of S3 units is mostly true...but remember scorpions are S4 cos of chain swords, farseers and warlocks always wound on a 2+ so they don't really count

[Nikephoros]

Do Wave Serpents have assault ramps? No? Oh, well then Banshees suck.

[Laughing God]

You're giving Banshees Scorpion attacks. ;P 10 basic Banshees have 30 attacks on the charge. (1 base +1 for PS/SP, +1 for charge)


Oh crap... my fault. A complete whiff on that one.
Need to proof read my comments before posting I guess. Durrrr! :D

[Melissia]

Banshees are T3 after all...

[Brettila]

Eldar points have been a hot topic in our group lately. Without exception, everyone agrees that almost ALL Eldar units are overpriced. Especially their jump troops. Just compare a Guardian to a Dire Avenger and explain why the Guardian costs 8 points. The DA has better, WS, BS, weapon, Ld, Sv, and I; but somehow only costs 4 more points... Guardians should probably more in line with units like cheap Orks or guants.

Banshees are a glass cannonball. If they shoot and charge they kill 7 (if I remember) MEQs. They then promptly get shot into confetti once they are unengaged. With executioner plus powers they are 192 pts. Add a serpent for around 140 more, and you are spending quite a bit for that one good attack round. Not to mention that the wave serpent makes it more difficult to assault, as you have to move closer, sit tight taking fire, then hopefully be able to disembark and assault. The end of the 'rhino rush' style play made Banshees tough to use effectively.

[scadugenga]

I have personally seen a squad of Banshees (around 5 - 7 banshees, I forget the number) fail to hurt Devastators because of the 5+ needed to wound, and in turn get killed and run away. This happens more often than not that I have seen, and in turn the Eldar player will not take Banshees anymore. They can have as many gimicky rules, but when you need 5's to wound, ugh, it is just sad.

This is one of the reasons I prefer scorpions over banshees--though I've had fully kitted scorps swing & miss as well. But they tend towards a bit more resilience than the screaming wenches (tm).

Though none of the eldar infantry CC units (scorps, 'shees, harlies or storms) really qualify as a "hammer" unit. Eldar don't really have a hammer unit. They have scalpels instead. :)

Shining Spears joined by a 'Spear autarch are all kinds of nasty in CC though, but for a ridiculously high point cost.

But then, the eldar have always been more pricey than most other armies out there.

At least they partially fixed the @#$@#%@#%@#$ 12" shuriken catapult with the new Avengers. 3rd edition Eldar was enough to make you weep for nerf-curbing the army received from 2nd to 3rd editions.

[Brettila]

Though none of the eldar infantry CC units (scorps, 'shees, harlies or storms) really qualify as a "hammer" unit. Eldar don't really have a hammer unit. They have scalpels instead. :)

That is perhaps the best way I have seen that put. Well done! Some people have mistakenly accused my Eldar of being too powerful. However, the whole reason I play the army is that it takes finesse to play well. You have to use combined arms, and attack with multiple units to kill off opponents.

[Cyberscape7]

Okay there is a lot of stick about the magic 3 number in the banshee statline(actually if I had considered their feeble stats then this thread probably wouldn't exist) but as it has already been pointed out, both DE and eldar are incredibly fragile armies. It does mean that you need to dish out on extra points to keep the banshees alive long enough to kill everyone which(as it has been stated) pretty much balances out the points and a farseer which again balances them out. But the whole point is, they get the job done!