IG are by no means Over Powered!

[Renegade]

Just finished catching up reading on the News & Reviews...

What is it with people...? Most armies can to mech, and in some cases better than IG. IG are squishy, and SM can do just about anything they can, and in most cases, better. Orks can challenge any IG list, as can any other xeno.

So really, I don't get. What is the crying about?

[Denzark]

I heartily agree on the 'why the crying'. I respectfully differ on the 'space marines can do....'

5 Ed = Mech is God = IG is God of Mech.

[scadugenga]

I don't think there's "loads of crying" but there is a strong argument re: IG being the king of mech.

Which, honestly, they should be.

So far, they're the only army than can take tank/artillery squadrons. 3 Leman Russ variants for 1 Heavy Support slot is devastating.

That, and the biggest "grr" is the undercosted overly useful Chimera.

[Renegade]

I am not really that convinced. IG are incredibly squishy with a best Sv of 4+, the side and rear armour on the Chimera is paper, and the basic weapon is a joke. You have no choice with IG but to go for massive amounts of fire power. In fact, they don't have anything that is brilliant amour wise on the side and rear.

MEQs are elite's, they can still take enough fire power to do close to what IG can. You got Whirlwinds (except BT) can take a load of Dreads or Terminators, Scouts are better then anything the IG have an answer for, and have by far a lot of better FA options that are good at busting mech. The LR (which some MEQ can take a lot of) is in ways better than a Russ, and are people really forgetting the Spearhead rules, rules that can be used in any game? Rhino's can fix themselves, a Chimera can't. Immobilise a Chimera and its a pill box thats going to die to small arms fire.

What IG do well, is the same thing that Pup's do well, the units work well together.

Take away those pie plates and IG are very, very weak.

[Mizzrym]

Well I disagree on the pie plates thing, they hurt but with the prevalence of cover they're not that bad. It is the massively spamable autocannons and lascannons. If chimeras ever got autoccannon turrets it would be the end for most other armies.

[blackarmchair]

Take it from someone who played IG for years, IG are OP as hell now. I started IG around the time it's 4th ed dex came out and quit a little less than a year ago due entirely to the new book. I ran the same leafblower list against each and every foe and almost never lost, not because I am incredibly skilled but because there is simply no arguing with some of the cheese in this book.

IG infantry are squishy. IG armour is not.

The issue with the IG dex isn't that its troops are difficult to kill it's the unprecidented amount of armour that can be fielded in a single army.

Vehicle squadrons, new variants of old vehicles and a general drop in points cost have allowed IG to include a staggering amount of Mech, especially considering that even IG transports are AV12. It has become possible to create walls of APCs granting cover saves large tanks and static firing lines that hammer away past the tops of the Chimeras.

There is no single "cheese" unit, there is no simple one thing that sets IG apart as being overpowered. They simply can take too much of what is supposed to be rare and expensive.

[Daemonette666]

I don't think there's "loads of crying" but there is a strong argument re: IG being the king of mech.

Which, honestly, they should be.

So far, they're the only army than can take tank/artillery squadrons. 3 Leman Russ variants for 1 Heavy Support slot is devastating.

That, and the biggest "grr" is the undercosted overly useful Chimera.
I think IG lead the mechanised assault by a small margin. Next it is either the Tau or the Eldar who also get nice tank squadron options, and both have hover tanks to choose from. They have some nasty weapons designed to kill troops well or kill tanks well. But in a Blitzkrieg, armoured assault, you can not send the tans ahead with out a good artillery and infantry fire support to cover them and soften up the enemy. That is why I think IG edge ahead.

There is only one Space marine army that could claim to be better. They are have been designed for assault and to be really over powering and almost unstoppable. Fortunately they are expensive and their enemy generally outnumbers and out guns them, until they get into close combat, then say bye-bye. Yes the BA can take landraiders as a dedicated transport which can then deep strike, and they get fast tanks, including their whirlwinds, and they get the storm raven.

Yes Renegade, they can get lots of Dreadnoughts and even psyker Dreadnoughts who jump, but how many of them do you get to face in a game where you can have 6 lemun russes, 3 artillery tanks, and loads of troops mounted in chimeras, and add to this the vulture/vendetta gunship troop transports, and your sentinels, which I had hold an entire quad of Khorne Berserkers charges by 2 of them and they held them for 3 rounds until an Ogryn joined the battle and finished off the Berserkers ( note take a power fist for Aspiring champion lol). A few ok, but you get a lot more, so take Commander Pask, and hit him with BS 4 tank cannons.

Lucky it is not 4th edition rules. The close combat was a nightmare for IG back then.

[scadugenga]

I think IG lead the mechanised assault by a small margin. Next it is either the Tau or the Eldar who also get nice tank squadron options, and both have hover tanks to choose from.

Neither Tau nor Eldar get squadrons of tanks. Eldar grav tanks are 1 per slot. Same with Tau tanks.

Vypers are in squadron format--but that's really neither here nor there re: the KoM discussion.

Eldar do have arguably the best/most resilient dedicated transport in the game, at a paltry 2x the cost of a chimera or 3x cost of a rhino. /soapbox

[Renegade]

Neither Tau nor Eldar get squadrons of tanks. Eldar grav tanks are 1 per slot. Same with Tau tanks. Look up "Spearhead" formations. The "wraith" death star is pretty horrible to (Wraith Guard with Wraith lords, Farseer and Warlock) Get that marching forward with some support and its nasty. War walkers can take more fire power than a sentinel.

Are people not using Landspeeders in squadrons? They have been able to for a long time, and can dish out a lot of hurt. A mix of Typhoons and Tornado's can be quite effective. Not to mention the 3++ Terminators DSing with the aid of a storm.

Some this "OP" nonsense seems to come from ridged list building, and the automatic "that unit is no good" kind of thinking. I'll point out the Valcan lists, the Lysander lists before that etc. Those that come up with these type of builds before they become popular are the ones that are playing around with what they can do.

All the 5ed codices have about an equal chance against each other, I have yet to see a real imbalance between them.

[scadugenga]

Look up "Spearhead" formations.

Look up normal games. We're not talking GW's WD expansion--that you need to agree to play, just like CoD, PS, etc.


The "wraith" death star is pretty horrible to (Wraith Guard with Wraith lords, Farseer and Warlock) Get that marching forward with some support and its nasty. War walkers can take more fire power than a sentinel.

The discussion thus far is primarily regarding Tanks. Not "death stars" of other varieties.


Are people not using Landspeeders in squadrons? They have been able to for a long time, and can dish out a lot of hurt. A mix of Typhoons and Tornado's can be quite effective. Not to mention the 3++ Terminators DSing with the aid of a storm.

Again, my response, and the overwhelming posts thus far have been about a TANK discussion, not av10 speeders. You're prevaricating. Either that, or you should have more clearly defined your response to my quote and made your other argument/statement separate.


All the 5ed codices have about an equal chance against each other, I have yet to see a real imbalance between them.

Ah, but neither Eldar nor Tau are 5ed codices.

Now, to get away from the tank discussion--you should never underestimate the ability of orders and massed lasguns. You have 50, 60 shots coming down range, you're going to cause some hurt. Even 2+ saves fail 1/6 of the time. FRFSRF makes it even more nasty. I never really gave much thought to the humble lasgun, until I put it into use.

[DarkLink]

I am not really that convinced. IG are incredibly squishy with a best Sv of 4+, the side and rear armour on the Chimera is paper, and the basic weapon is a joke. You have no choice with IG but to go for massive amounts of fire power. In fact, they don't have anything that is brilliant amour wise on the side and rear.

Doesn't matter when you've got 100 guys and 10 Chimeras, with a whole bunch of cover saves to go around. And they have so much firepower they can send back at you that even if you kill half of them, the surviving half will do more damage to you than you did to them.



MEQs are elite's, they can still take enough fire power to do close to what IG can. You got Whirlwinds (except BT) can take a load of Dreads or Terminators, Scouts are better then anything the IG have an answer for, and have by far a lot of better FA options that are good at busting mech. The LR (which some MEQ can take a lot of) is in ways better than a Russ, and are people really forgetting the Spearhead rules, rules that can be used in any game? Rhino's can fix themselves, a Chimera can't. Immobilise a Chimera and its a pill box thats going to die to small arms fire.

What IG do well, is the same thing that Pup's do well, the units work well together.

Take away those pie plates and IG are very, very weak.

Sure, MEQs are better. They're also significantly more expensive. A Scout squad might be better than a unit of Guardsmen, but when you can get three guardsmen for every Scout then it really doesn't matter much.

You can't just compare statlines. You have to compare armies. And IG can cram in more firepower, vehicles and bodies than anyone else.

[Daemonette666]

Doesn't matter when you've got 100 guys and 10 Chimeras, with a whole bunch of cover saves to go around. And they have so much firepower they can send back at you that even if you kill half of them, the surviving half will do more damage to you than you did to them.



Sure, MEQs are better. They're also significantly more expensive. A Scout squad might be better than a unit of Guardsmen, but when you can get three guardsmen for every Scout then it really doesn't matter much.

You can't just compare statlines. You have to compare armies. And IG can cram in more firepower, vehicles and bodies than anyone else.
Yes I agree with that point, they get a lot.

They also have some handy rules now adays designed to help them get back into the fight if they might be forced to rout or fail a LD test.

Their smaller yet still cheaply priced veteran squads get BS 4. Match this with the cheaper transports, and lots of tank and artillery in squadrons, and you have a real winner of an army. I sometimes use my traitor guard as only recently fallen, and follow the guard list for them because of this.

[Renegade]

They also have some handy rules now adays designed to help them get back into the fight if they might be forced to rout or fail a LD test. A LD that is pretty low and has to test to follow orders. Luck of the dice still.



Their smaller yet still cheaply priced veteran squads get BS 4. 2pts per model more for that BS4. I wouldn't call that under priced given thats the only plus.


Look up normal gamesSpearhead can be used in normal games. I know people that use at least one in a normal pick up games.


The discussion thus far is primarily regarding Tanks. No, the discussion is me trying to understand why some are crying "Over Powered" for what is a fairly squishy army, which some very crunchy bits. It's no good running foot sloggers against a fully mech list a lot of the time, I was pointing out that MEQ list can take a lot of dakka if the player chooses.

However those tanks got more expensive for IG in this edition by around 10-15pts, and remain, but for one upgrade,shoot at BS3.

[RocketRollRebel]

A LD that is pretty low and has to test to follow orders. Luck of the dice still.

2pts per model more for that BS4. I wouldn't call that under priced given thats the only plus.

Spearhead can be used in normal games. I know people that use at least one in a normal pick up games.

No, the discussion is me trying to understand why some are crying "Over Powered" for what is a fairly squishy army, which some very crunchy bits. It's no good running foot sloggers against a fully mech list a lot of the time, I was pointing out that MEQ list can take a lot of dakka if the player chooses.

However those tanks got more expensive for IG in this edition by around 10-15pts, and remain, but for one upgrade,shoot at BS3.


Orders can get off fairly reliably but that isn't where the power is.

Veterans you are paying 2 pts more for yes BS4 and 3 special weapons! A veteran squad with 3 melta guns in a chimera is 155pts. Space Marines can't touch that kind of fire power at that bargain. Also the Chimera is a good little tank. Sure it has weak side n front but its job is to mostly scooch guys around and/or be a wall to your big cheap artillery. Throw in Vendettas for cheap long range accurate las cannon fire and late game objective grabbing and you are set to go. A super effective IG list can spend under 200pts on each unit so they can pack in a lot of fire power into standard 1,500-1,850 lists.

Now are they unbeatable? No not at all. I've played IG for over 4 years as my first and main army and even now I still lose plenty of games. Its not a complete win button army but they are pretty friggin efficient.

[Porty1119]

Veteran squads actually gain krak grenades, so I treat the increase as 1pt/model for the grenades and 1pt/model for the BS increase.

[fuzzbuket]

lets just say hull mounted las cannons, multi melta sponsons, punisher cannon x3= no tank OR infnatyman within 24" is going to be alive nex turn and sure the las gun is rubbish but 50 lasguns and powersowrd blobs, are they rubbish?

ig is not overpowed its just that *****eaper and that bit better than all the other dexes, and there tanks

in the fluff there are

infantry regiments

armourd regiments

in the fluff armourd regiments arew rare and not every thing you see, the igs problem is 2500 pts+ in smaller games YOU CANt take blobs and armourd brigades and valk vets,you need to take ONE path and stick with it.

2000pts is the guards sweet spot like 1000- 500is the DE/Dh sweet spot


oh and a 5+ save isnt bad due to the meq anything above 4+ is horrible,

a 5+ is a 1/3 chance of survival. its actually very good.

[Renegade]

lets just say hull mounted las cannons, multi melta sponsons, punisher cannon x3= no tank OR infnatyman within 24" is going to be alive nex turn and sure the las gun is rubbish but 50 lasguns and powersowrd blobs, are they rubbish?

I am not saying that the IG are crap, I am saying that they are no better than any other 5ed codex out there. Hell, I get people crying about my foot slogging BT, so yeah, I know all about being hit by pie plates, but that is what cover is for (ok, get closer to the enemy with each death is pretty decent at times)

I've seen Bike lists do crazy thing to Mesh list. It is not that mech is horribly powerful, its that people are not using the list to there potential.

There been nothing said here that makes me think that the internet "IG is like ZOMG" is anything more than crying.

[Zweischneid]

There been nothing said here that makes me think that the internet "IG is like ZOMG" is anything more than crying.

Well, frankly, that is easy to see as you don't really even try to admit any of the arguments brought forward. There's all the reasons in this thread that make IG punch above other Codexes in the average.

Like most people trying to prove that "X" isn't overpowered, your simply dismissing any point brought forth by equating "overpowered" with "unbeatable"; consequently reversing the argument to "if Y can be beat by X", "X" is not overpowered. But that, is a logical fallacy.

Let me break it to you. "Overpowered" is not the same as "unbeatable". So far, GW has (luckily) not produced any unit, codex, list or combination that is truly "unbeatable". There are however plenty of things, IG included and first among them, that are "overpowered" (for reasons listed above in plenty).

You do not counter an argument like "Chimeras are too cheap for what they do" by arguing that you can still kill them in one way or another. To put it in the extreme, Landraiders that cost a Space Marine Army only 5 pts. would be "overpowered"; even if they still die to meltaguns like any other Landraider would.

In short;
Can you beat any given IG army coming at you? Sure. They are not unbeatable. They also still have weaknesses that savy players might be able to exploit (say.. low LD).

However, will IG armies by and large have an easier time/struggle less? Most definitly, because they pack some mean combos and underpriced options that put them ahead of other Codexes out there.

[jmboland]

Renegade,

I have to completely disagree with you. I play a mech space marine list and have been pretty succesful, but if I play an equally skilled IG mech list, they win every single time. Here's why.

1) Chimera, it has better armor than a rhino, with more guns, and more firepoints and is incredibly cheap. Also, the shape of all IG vehicles are made perfectly so they can be castled and protect one another flanks and hide each other.
2) Vendettas are incredibly cheap, come in squadrons, can carry troops, is a fast skimmer with scout, and has three twin linked las cannons.
3) Veteran Squads, they ARE really cheap but that isn't even the worst part, its the three special weapons. No space marine squad can do that, except sternguard but those are only combi weapons. The combination of these veterans with three special weapons each in chimeras with enough firing points so they can shoot is amazing.

Of course there are other advantages of guard like artillery and leman russ squadrons. But a spam of nothing but the above by a skilled player is a very very hard army to beat. IG individually may be squishy, thats why they have vehicles. Those vehicles are not squishy, they are some of the heaviest armored transports in the game. Leadership is almost a secondary concern because you will almost never see a squad outside a chimera until you blow it up. Even if you do blow up one chimera or two or three, there will still be more waiting. The main problem with IG is that they make up for their weaknesses perfectly. Low armor is negated by a cheap transport option that has relatively high armor. Low BS is negated by cheap veteran uprgrades thats a troop choice, and for their tanks, the access to many numerous shot weapons (multi-laser, heavy bolter) on a single tank. Low leadership is negated by the fact, you will almost always have to blow up the tank first, and then usually that squad is written off anyways, or they could just take a commisar.

Beating IG is possible. The IG codex works great, which is the problem. The IG codex has units that fit together and cover each other weaknesses better than any other codex and best of all, they do it cheaper than anyone else.

[gwensdad]

After reading this I don't know if I'm the worst Guard player ever or my opponents are/were screwing me over.

Last year, I was in a league where we played 3 games/month each. I started with the old codex, switched to the new when it came out.

My usual opponents:
Blood Angels
Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Chaos

I lost almost every game due to getting close assaulted on turn 2. The only opponents I had a chance against (and could sometimes beat) where the Eldar. If I fielded tank squadrons, 1 uber-character would walk up to them and kill all 3 in a close assault.

Of course, I also think maybe the new Blood Angel codex is actually weaker than the old one, but that's a debate for elsewhere. And we did catch the Chaos player cheating me at least once...

[Renegade]

Zweischneid: Thats because the same arguments being used are those used by some to say that Space Wolves are Cheesy, or BT are broken in 5ed etc.

jmboland: I've heard similar said about Razorbacks etc in the past. Most codices are capable of strong builds, so I really do not see what the problem is, as they have there counters as well.

[Melissia]

For me, I think it's the combination of lots of spammable autocannons / missile launchers / lascannons and AP3 pieplates that makes IG overwhelming for me. Mostly because my Sisters rely on their armor saves to survive, and good Guard armies are capable of popping open transports, then pouring on the AP3 pieplates to deal with what's inside. If I don't get the first turn, I'm pretty much screwed (even if I reserve it only delays the inevitable).

[Zweischneid]

Zweischneid: Thats because the same arguments being used are those used by some to say that Space Wolves are Cheesy, or BT are broken in 5ed etc. .

That's because Space Wolves are Cheesy :D

[Denzark]

Renegade this is such a non-discussion. You are not answering anything here. Space Marine Arty - Thunderfire and Whirlwind? Hugely crap compared to Guard arty, Basilisks, Medusas. Medusas! Capable of S10 + 2d6 pen? Preds - crapper as anti-armour than Vanquishers or Demolishers yet supposed to be marines' MBT. Rhino's/razorback? Worse than Chimaera. Particularly if lascannons are popping out of the back hatch.

Marines do some things, even lots better - hth, dreads, ATSKNF. But an average guard player will find it easier going with IG to get results against MEQ or any other army, than an average MEQ will. I play both, have played IG in all 5 editions and they are at their comparitive hardest now.

It is harder to counter a well placed IG gunline than it is to counter MEQ - harder to kill the Guard troops to kill off scoring units, harder to pierce a well sited defence on an obj.

If you could still follow on into a new hth they would be pap. But, murder a squad, even a blob, and then consolidate to stnad around as heavy calibre shells cracks beakies.

Happy days, the Emperor protects.

[the jeske]

well it is like that because IG was always the best army to tailor . no other army could do it like IG . with the death of different lists we had in the 4th [the more then a few chaos and sm builds for example] and the nerf other armies got in 5th ed [eldar got weaker, tau got weaker, ] they just have to meta mecha and they are good to go [as they already do well against horde or sloggers because of the numbger of shots they can do] . the fact that they now have mobilty that works too , makes them very good. It is easy to notice when a dex is realy good and when it is just not tested against enough. Nids stoped being powerful[if they ever were powerful] before the new codex came . IG are still seen as very good [OP argument aside] after 3 dex , SW are very good afte 2 dex.
Can one win against an IG list ? sure , the problem is at how many points played and with what chance for an actual win with a list that isnt gimped against the rest of the play field.

[jmboland]

Renegade,

This is def a non-discussion. of course every army has strong builds, but IG are stronger. Razorbacks are good for marines but dont compare to chimeras. Chimeras have better armor, 11 to 12 is a huge difference. They also have more guns, albeit usually not stronger guns, but thats not what chimeras are for. Chimeras fit the role of veteran transport perfectly. Razorbacks and whatever else you want to choose as an example are good, but not as good as a chimera.

Also, have you played this game before? whirlwinds? thunderfire cannons? how can you even compare that a medusa, basillisk, or any of the other choices IG has?

no one here is saying IG is unbeatable, every army can be beaten, it is just that IG have stronger builds than any other codex.

Also, why do you post a discussion if all you do is disregard what other people are saying and restate your point over and over?

[Renegade]

jmboland,

I've played his game since 2002, though not used the C:SM. A Chimera is only reasonable as long as no one get a shot on the side armour, that is where the Rhino is stronger, and a Rhino can self repair.

Guard have had a way of getting a number of special weapons in a squad since at least the last edition, even if it was a 0-3 troop option.

Jeske has put forward the only thing I have read that does not read as OTT so far. Though for his last point, most games played in the UK are 1500, and imbalance is known to happen at higher points. (though I would argue that CSM can do heavy support better than other SM lists, to a point)

[jmboland]

obv. not enough. A self repair? are you kidding? your saying a rhino is superior because it has lower armor, less weapons, worse weapons, less firing points, but has self repair? even an immobilized chimera with a vet squad is better than a rhino. Said vet squad can shoot out the top with almost any type of heavy weapon plus three more guns. Even if you get your side shot which you seem to think is very easy to get, there is still five more of them at least.

six vet squads with six chimeras is less than 1000 pts with special weapons in each squad. in ard boyz thats less than half the army. trying competing with that in any army. No matter what army you use, except possibly orks, has that kind of value for the points.

What guard havent had is a troop choice that has had bs 4 that can take three special weapons for 100 pts. Being able to have 6 choices like that instead of three is a huge difference.

I mean you must be doing this as a joke right? whirlwinds, thunderfires, self repair? i mean come on you cant be serious

[Renegade]

jmboland: And yet those things that add crunch to the squishy IG have, other than the Chimera, become at least 10 points more. The standard Russ was, the Hell Hound are more expensive than they were.

Meltas are limited in range, and if they are in range, then they are close enough to assault. Going from the C:BT, 6 5man squads in razorbacks with TLLC is not much more (170 pts) and thats if I give them all PF and Melta, and they have range on there side over the chimera, not to mention a better BS. The 1 pt difference in armour means little, in that case, and its going to be good against most other armies. Given that most my AT options are assault based, and killing a guy or two probably means I get closer to you. Like I care for gun lines. I would probably go in LRC's and ram and shoot your little tanks up all game.

IG have always been able to bring more guns to the show, and now the big guns are a more expensive.

I just think you are making a much of a muchness over it, as does the webs (well, more on the US than on the UK side).

[scadugenga]

jmboland:

I think you're wasting your time tbh. Renegade doesn't seem to want to actually discuss the topic. He has his opinion (the internets are whiny crybabies about IG) and nothing is going to change that viewpoint, or his viewpoint that Guard are squishy, underarmed and under-armored (I guess his IG opponents don't find cover saves) and prey to his superior BT. ;)

Despite there actually being no whining or crying about the IG on this thread, but actual discussion points re: why they have a lot of power in their 'dex.

Maybe he hasn't faced IG since 2002, back in 3rd ed when Chimeras were popcorn.

[MC Tic Tac]

Well I beat my Mech IG friend today using foot sloggin Space Wolves - Dawn of War set up on capture and control too so make of that what you will :p

I have been playing Guard since 3rd edtion (with over 5000pts) and while it's that "we're on top" after 2 Edtions of being Cannon fodder it it kind of annoying that we are now the "flavour of the month band wagon :(.

[RocketRollRebel]

Well I beat my Mech IG friend today using foot sloggin Space Wolves - Dawn of War set up on capture and control too so make of that what you will :p

I have been playing Guard since 3rd edtion (with over 5000pts) and while it's that "we're on top" after 2 Edtions of being Cannon fodder it it kind of annoying that we are now the "flavour of the month band wagon :(.

Dude I know what you mean. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but I get the same feeling. I've been taking them to tournys for a couple years now and b4 the new 'dex I'd do well but be only one of like 2 or 3 IG players out of say 30. Now they seem to make up 30%-40% of the armies at an event. My other army is Blood Angels and I've been seeing the same thing happen. At least I play Vostroyans tho and I haven't seen a complete Vosy army at a big event yet other than mine so I take some solace in that ;).

Not trying to be an arrogant jerk about it but since they became top dog in the tourny circuit I've been seeing them everywhere.

Totally thinking of starting up a Dark Eldar army just out of spite. Which I suppose is a very appropriate reason to play DE :D

[Renegade]

scadugenga: Its because I've heard it all before regarding different armies. I think there are a number that remember the "ZOMG BROKENZ!!!!111one!!! that CSM 3.5 got.

I have seen IG armies win and lose, but to say the are "to good" is ridiculous. All they have is guns and mech(which is the thing a lot of commentators have focused on, stating the obvious), get though that and they go squish.

Sure they are stronger than they were, and it seems that is still taking people by surprise, when all 5ed codices are stronger than they were in 4ed.

Edit: "Totally thinking of starting up a Dark Eldar army just out of spite''

Till Novermber, then everyone and there mother will have them.

[RocketRollRebel]

scadugenga: Its because I've heard it all before regarding different armies. I think there are a number that remember the "ZOMG BROKENZ!!!!111one!!! that CSM 3.5 got.

I have seen IG armies win and lose, but to say the are "to good" is ridiculous. All they have is guns and mech(which is the thing a lot of commentators have focused on, stating the obvious), get though that and they go squish.

Sure they are stronger than they were, and it seems that is still taking people by surprise, when all 5ed codices are stronger than they were in 4ed.

Edit: "Totally thinking of starting up a Dark Eldar army just out of spite''

Till Novermber, then everyone and there mother will have them.

Oh the irony of that... I'm not convinced that the DE will explode to IG or SW level, but thats a discussion for another thread...

IG do get very squishy once things go wrong and your metal boxes are gone. I run a mech vet list a lot of the time with about 4 to 5 vet squads and I've had quite a few games go south once the Chimeras are gone and my boys start to rapidly evaporate.

[jmboland]

haha alright this thread is done. Renegade, do you realize that every single point anyone has brought up, you have just responded with what you said in the beginning? Grow up, if you want to discuss something, then discuss it.

lets go over your "points":
Russ hellhound more expensive? who cares the leafblower list that everyone is "whining" about doesnt have russes or hellhounds. It has vendettas and chimeras.

70 points more for 4 less guys, 1 less special weapon, a worse tank with less armour and not as many guns, albeit it does have your amazing self repair!!!!!! OMMGMMGMGMMG self repair.... sorry i digress. the 70 pts more you pay for that squad allows the IG player to field another entire squad. Thats a huge difference.

Also, the razorback may have a better bs than a chimera but lets compare the shots you will get from a razorback with a squad in it compared to a cheaper veteran squad in a chimera:

shots from tllc razorback with squad inside= 1 twin linked last cannon shot

shots from chimera with squad inside= hull heavy bolter, turret multi laster (at a lower bs skill), lascannon shot from the squad with the same bs skill plus two more special weapons and a lasgun. Oh and did i mention that they can choose seperate targets. There is no comparrison which is better. NONE. There is NO way you can say somehow that that is better.

1 pt dif in armour??? that makes all the difference. A one point difference in armour completely changes the probabilty of penetrating the armour by over 15%. Thats huge. Tanks are made by a 1pt dif in armour. Saying that a 1 pt difference in armour is like saying a 2 up save is not that much better than a 3 up. Come on

I mean do you realize how this game works? lets say they have only meltas, so they, like you say, will have to be in your assault range. They will shoot their three meltas, at least one of the chimera weapons or at most all 3, plus two double tapping lasguns. Sure, a ten man space marine squad may still live. Then you assault the chimera. Lets say you blow it up. Maybe you will kill half the squad. Then guess what? the squad is fine!! there is still 3 melta guns and they are fine, in the open and going to kill your squad next turn. congratulations, you just killed 55 points. How do you not see this? I could understand from someone who just started but this is basic assault tactics.

did you really jsut say you dont care about getting closer to gun line guard???? im sure you will be saying that when over a 100 guardsmen get the triple tap order.

LRC? sure its a good tank. Sure your bt can take them as dedicated transports. Its a good tank. Yet it has no long range AT. You will almost always be in range of their AT for you to fire yours. At that range they will always outgun you. Not only that, its at least two turns before the LRC's get in range to either shoot up the chimeras and vendettas or drop their load. Thats two turns of multiple vendettas with 3 twin linked lascannons shooting you up. Im NOT saying the LRC is a bad tank, its a great tank, and one of the most compettive builds for BT is nothing but crusader squads in LRC's. However, this showcases guard's strength. In order for you to make up your points for your LRC's you need to kill multiple tanks and squads. For Guard, they pop even one LRC they will more than double their points.

Sure the big guns might have gotten marginally more expensive, but they also got better and they also got more numerous and easier to take. Thats fact. Its reading the rules straight from the codex. Big guns and russes have increased in points but have gotten better rules and more options such as squadrons, dif guns, lumbering behemoth rule, etc. Regardless, leafblower IG's strength is not the "big guns" as you say, but in what i have already stated.

All guard do is mech and guns??? YES THATS ALL THEY DO, THATS ALL THAT IS REALLY GOOD IN THIS EDITION. Saying that besides mech and guns ( which they are AMAZING at) guard is squishy is liek saying besides the fact that megan fox has amazing tits and is gorgeous, she really isnt that hot...

COME ON

[Aegis]

Guard may be squishy, but for every one squad of marines, there is a whole platoon of squishy... That is a lot of counter fire, especially when firing happens on a one-to-one basis for units.

For the new line of books, IG do seem to have gained the most amount of optimization. The army itself would not have become a hit sensation if there was not something to it. For instance, how many new 'nid armies have you seen since the codex? How about BA? You have some people jumping on the flavour of the month wagon, but the amount of IG players continues to grow, in both casual and competitive fields.

The simple fact is, regardless of internet grievers, is that the IG got a significant shot in the arm in terms of power, and they have become a rather dominant force on the table. There ways to beating them (I do so consistently with my Sisters of Battle), but at times, it almost feels as though the planets need to be in alignment, and the dice gods in your flavour. The sad thing is that the IG have almost become a fire and forget army, which is especially more true since the Leafblower list his the web.

Again, they are no unbeatable, but they are the most forgiving for new players to pick up, and they are down right devestating with a skilled player guiding their fire. Many of the other armies available only meet one of those two factors. In the current metegame, the guard seem to be only one to meet both. That, I believe, is the source of their power, and the source of the grief being hurled their way.

[Dr. Doctor]

IG are not so much over powerered as they are a hard army to fight, taking down mech lists requires large amounts of anti-tank firepower that leaves little room for anti infantry firepower. Infantry heavy builds lay down enough fire to decimate a footslogging army.

The codex plays to their strengths: fire power, and units that can fill almost any specific roll (Valks are fast transports, Artillery comes in anti tank, and anti infantry flavors, Russ tanks have a variant for everything.) The downside to this is most armies have fewer options than the IG when it comes to infantry, and AT and because of this it makes the Guard hard to play against.

IG has IMO the best combined arms tactics of any army and that's what makes them so deadly

[Axel]

I'm going to try and defuse the argument some here, sorry if it doesn't work.

I've been playing Guard (of all colours and flavours) for a few years now, since a few months after the brick'o'cheese of the 2nd edition Guard codex came out. While the current Codex is more obviously powerful than the 3rd edition, and 3.5 edition books, it is by no means overpowered. I should note, though, that I outright refuse to take Valkyries or Vendettas (or their ******* cousin the Vulture) in anything except a "themed" drop-trooper type list.

I'll try and make my argument by listing some things that are common factors when I lose, and common factors when I win. My hypothesis is that Guard present as overpowered due to opponent's lack of perception rather than a 'default win' mode.

Common factors when I lose:
- Multiple assaults. Normally, when I lose, I have been multiple-assaulted at least once in the game. Sometimes this is my error in squad placement or distance judgement, though more commonly I am attacked from an unexpected angle through non-standard deployment. As others have noted above, Guard units are not powerful on their own and rely on mutual support to be effective. Essentially, this means being near each other. Things like Ymgarl genestealers bursting out of cover to hack apart an entire platoon, or group of Chimerae can be deviously powerful. Likewise, fast open-topped transports (Landspeeder Storm), or close-combat oriented units that outflank (Wolf Scouts, Striking Scorpions) can bring ruin to half my force very quickly.

- Multiple small targets. Guard bring a lot of shooting to the table, that much should be obvious to anyone with two eyes. When an opponent contains multiple smaller units (as opposed to fewer large units) it causes inefficiencies in shooting. Either a lot of wounds are 'over and extra' to what would have been needed to destroy the small unit or not enough force is applied, resulting in 1 or 2 survivors. It is possible to get it 'just right', but doing so takes judgement, skill and luck. Further to this, 1 or 2 survivors can be a real pain in the butt. Taking a surviving Tactical Bolter marine within (probably) 12" of the squad that wiped out his Brothers. He can shoot me with a bolt pistol, then assault and likely tie up one squad for a few turns. It's a mini-tarpit, and very annoying from my side.

- Ongoing assaults. This combines elements from the above two points. Small units hitting my squads, or larger units hitting many of my squads, can tie up my shooting. Don't use Honour Guard with their 42 power weapon attacks - you'll just carve through 60-odd points of men and end up standing in the open. Use 5 Assault Marines. With less attacks you might stay in combat through my turn, then wipe me out in time for a rinse and repeat. If you have to use Honour Guard, or 30 Ork Boyz, or Howling Banshees then try and hit as many units as humanly (or alienly) possible. Spread your attacks as you see fit, but aim to either stay in combat or blitz enough squads off the board that losing your squad in retaliation is worthwhile.


Now, moving on to common factors when I win.
- Trying to outshoot me. Just....don't. Even if you're Tau. Though Guard v Guard can be a bloody affair. Show some tactical flexibility and play a different game. This can appear, from my side of the table, almost like a 'rabbit in the headlights'. Opponents get paralysed by something (fear?) and stop thinking.

- Overdeploying. If I'm going first, don't stack your deployment zone. Even the Master of Ordnance can hit 2000 points crammed into 12" deep zones. If you're going first, think about not stacking your deployment zone. Use Reserves, and more importantly, non-standard deployment (Deep Strike and Outflank particularly).

- Trying to fight against MEQ. A boltgun is almost as effective as a meltagun or plasma gun against Guard infantry. Mix and match your weaponry - melta spam doesn't work against a well planned and well played Guard army, though melta does have a place. Let's see some template weapons and balance come back, please!

- Rushing across in the open with smoke launchers. Guard can play the number of dice game better than anyone else in the game. I will hit you, and you will fail a smoke launcher save. Better to stay out of sight.

- Shooting the heavy armour. It's hard to get anywhere by shooting my Russes. Treat them like C'tan or Monoliths and just go for the squish(ier) bits. At some point I'll have few enough Guardsmen left that shooting near myself becomes unattractive. If you must kill the heavy armour, it is better to do it in close-combat (vs AV10 or AV11) or by using fast melta-equipped units. Russes rarely move over 6", so you should at least hit on a 4+. Landspeeders and equivalents (Pirhana, Fire Dragons in a transport, Swooping Hawks) are great here as they can stay out of sight on my turn, then zip over and melt a battle tank or two.


I hope the above points help people think about fighting against Guard. Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that they're not Marines. With a competitive and effective Codex, Guard have begun to appear on the tabletop more frequently. People still base their army design around killing Marines, who are almost the polar opposite with strong infantry and weak tanks.

Good luck, and may the dice fall your way!

[Denzark]

@ Axel - some excellent points.

@ Renegade - this may help you:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discussion

@ Whoever thinks IG are 'Flavour of the month'. I think IG represent a bigger commitment than that - more money, more time painting. Maybe its people who hate their non-MEQ armies getting rinsed in close assault, changing to something where the firepower (sheer amount) outwieghs their lack of hth ability.

Flavour of the Month? I think not.

[Kristov]

I find this entire discussion damn funny. There are some valid points for sure. Maybe I just have a great group, but nobody cares what army you're using, if it's in the rules, it is playable. No questions, no complaining, just playing and a good time by all. Though I don't like chimeras, and refuse to use heavies....

[Renegade]

jmboland,
plus two more special weapons and a lasgun. How long have you been playing the game? A lasgun shot is going to do diddly squat against a Rhino, and is unlikely to do anything against MEQ. Your points come across as hysterical.
As for getting shot at, as a BT player, I care not. But then I doubt you play them, or by the sounds of it ever gone against them, otherwise you'd get it. Mech BT is only one of the competitive builds for BT, not the top build.

Aegis,
There ways to beating them (I do so consistently with my Sisters of Battle), but at times, it almost feels as though the planets need to be in alignment, and the dice gods in your flavour. Funny, I get this with Eldar, but not IG... The worse I've had when going against IG, is when a player basically split his army so that I was facing 3 Russ' (Russ's?) But thats the woes of deploying first against a very good player.

So now they are possibly the best army for new players, I don't see that as a bad thing.

Axel, Some very good points. So you say that some players need to review there tactics, and need to better balance there lists?

[erwos]

I've been playing Guard (of all colours and flavours) for a few years now, since a few months after the brick'o'cheese of the 2nd edition Guard codex came out. While the current Codex is more obviously powerful than the 3rd edition, and 3.5 edition books, it is by no means overpowered. I should note, though, that I outright refuse to take Valkyries or Vendettas (or their ******* cousin the Vulture) in anything except a "themed" drop-trooper type list.
Look, while I respect that you have a fluffy list, we're talking about the codex as a whole. Much as I complain that my fluffy unmarked daemon-less Iron Warriors are somewhat ineffective on the table, the codex has a few pretty good choices outside of that. The IG codex is indeed brutal if you're not limiting yourself.

Vendettas are one of the things that makes the IG so good, because they can reliably kill a vehicle _at range_ every turn. There is not a whole lot else in the game that's capable of that feat - even Medusas with breachers aren't as reliable, not to mention costing much more.

And, of course, while the IG is pretty spectacular in a take-all-comers list, they are even more mind-blowing when tailoring a list. I'm not going to say I could field an unbeatable IG list against any army, but I'm pretty sure I could make life impossibly difficult against anyone with a bit of warning - even if they similarly tailored to IG killing (which is the default mode these days, really).

[Malkov]

Vendettas are reliable? Since when? Let's just completely ignore that they have paper armour, don't get cover, have a large unweildly footprint and that Lascans arn't all that good at AT.

Seriously, this game isn't played in a vacuum. It's not always about X guns for Y points.

[erwos]

Vendettas are reliable? Since when? Let's just completely ignore that they have paper armour, don't get cover, have a large unweildly footprint and that Lascans arn't all that good at AT.

Seriously, this game isn't played in a vacuum. It's not always about X guns for Y points.
That "paper armor" is better than a chimera's, and if you bring them off reserve, you'll definitely be doing some damage.

Also, I'm not sure what level of denial it requires to think that three twin-linked lascannons aren't good anti-tank. Do you really believe the only thing worth shooting at a tank is S10 or melta?

[DarkLink]

A LD that is pretty low and has to test to follow orders. Luck of the dice still.

2pts per model more for that BS4. I wouldn't call that under priced given thats the only plus.

Spearhead can be used in normal games. I know people that use at least one in a normal pick up games.

No, the discussion is me trying to understand why some are crying "Over Powered" for what is a fairly squishy army, which some very crunchy bits. It's no good running foot sloggers against a fully mech list a lot of the time, I was pointing out that MEQ list can take a lot of dakka if the player chooses.

However those tanks got more expensive for IG in this edition by around 10-15pts, and remain, but for one upgrade,shoot at BS3.

It seems to me that you're just trying your best to find every possible theoretical weakness in the IG list, while ignoring all the powerful stuff about it; namely cheap guys and vehicles with tons of firepower. If you think like that, you can convince yourself that any army is absolutely horrible.



Flavour of the Month? I think not.

Especially considering they're, what, a year and a half old now. And they still show up more often in tournament rosters than any other single army.

Ultimately, if you want to know how powerful a codex is, you look at how well it performs, on average, under competitive circumstances, with competent players. There are a lot of unknowns, but when an army shows up as consistently as IG does at the top of the tournament brackets, you can pretty much say it is one of the, if not the, best army in the game, atm.

[DrLove42]

Vendettas are reliable? Since when? Let's just completely ignore that they have paper armour, don't get cover, have a large unweildly footprint and that Lascans arn't all that good at AT.



That Paper armour is the same as the armour for everything in my army! And when did a Lascannon not be good as an AT? Is S9 not good enough for popping things for you? And then take 3 of them AND twin link them! The old guard weakness of low BS don't count for nothing when i can re-roll. I have never seen more than 1 miss.

[jmboland]

Renegade,

i'd like to see your "top" build for BT then, im sure it will have generous amounts of self repair.

I was not stating a lasgun would be good against a rhino, I was stating that the chimera allows for so much more versatility because it has so many more firing points, it can be good against mech and/or infantry. Also, I have played BT for a long time, im sure you are referring to righteous zeal? Cool rule, to bad you have to be alive to benefit from it. There is no way, that if you get in double or triple tap range of a gun line IG, excluding amazing or horrible dice roles, that a squad(s) survive.

Darklink,

You are absolutely correct on both your points. Renegade is either incapable of discussion, very young, or just doing this to annoy people. Looking at the most ridiculous theoretical situations while discarding everything everyone has said, you can convince yourself of anything. Why post a discussion when your mind is already made up?

Also, the power of guard, besides everything everyone has said, is clearly evident by the unprecedented number of IG players in the tournament circuit. There is no disputing that, almost more than any other codex, this version of IG have stayed on top the tournament circuit the longest, as well as keeping on top of newer codexes and keeping the attention of the community. The mere fact that people are still discussing how good IG are prove our point exactly. Do you see tyranid or BA threads in the same number as you do IG?

malkov,

X guns for Y points? how bout three twin linked lascannons with good armor that comes standard with x-armour for 130 pts? Oh, and it has scout, is a fast skimmer, and can carry a scoring unit.

What more do you want? Nothing imperial is above strength 9 (barring demolisher, artillery, etc.) Three of them that are all twin linked is pretty damn affordable for 130 pts. Thus, why you see them so often at tournys


Glad to see other people on this thread actually interested in discussing IG besides renegade, it was getting pretty boring posting in response to a brick wall.

[DrLove42]

X guns for Y points? how bout three twin linked lascannons with good armor that comes standard with x-armour for 130 pts? Oh, and it has scout, is a fast skimmer, and can carry a scoring unit.

What more do you want? Nothing imperial is above strength 9 (barring demolisher, artillery, etc.) Three of them that are all twin linked is pretty damn affordable for 130 pts. Thus, why you see them so often at tournys



If you compare say a Vendetta to a Falcon you can see how good you have it. For 130 you have the same armour. Thats it. You have deep strike, better capactiy, scout, and 3 Twinlinked S9 AP2 guns. We'd have 1 S8 AP2 and 1 S5 AP4 gun for the same points.

I know which one i'd rather have...

[Majorcrash]

As a IG player since RT days, I am totally amazed of the whining that now come for the IG. Where was the calls for a better list all these years, when guard sucked. All I have noticed is that the marines and their variants cant just walk over everyone. Now you have to use tactics and cover. Sure the IG have lots of guys, but with worst basic gun in the game and second worst armor so what if they have a few tanks. A normal marine with crask can put paid to a Leman russ in one turn. And with the LOS rules and the easy way to get cover saves that should be less than a problem. If you want to field more than 35 guys dont take some many characters and dreads. I have 124 troopers because my best guys is still not as good as a scout marine. So please less whining about the IG. and maybe taking more time on learning to play better to deal with them. 40k is all about rock paper sissors.

[DarkLink]

As a IG player since RT days, I am totally amazed of the whining that now come for the IG. Where was the calls for a better list all these years, when guard sucked. All I have noticed is that the marines and their variants cant just walk over everyone. Now you have to use tactics and cover. Sure the IG have lots of guys, but with worst basic gun in the game and second worst armor so what if they have a few tanks. A normal marine with crask can put paid to a Leman russ in one turn. And with the LOS rules and the easy way to get cover saves that should be less than a problem. If you want to field more than 35 guys dont take some many characters and dreads. I have 124 troopers because my best guys is still not as good as a scout marine. So please less whining about the IG. and maybe taking more time on learning to play better to deal with them. 40k is all about rock paper sissors.

Have you ever stopped to think that the reason that people started talking about IG all of a sudden is because they, for once, suddenly good a brand new, powerful codex?

[Renegade]

DarkLink, And after some low powered codices, they don't deserve one that is actually good. The internal balance of the codex is good, it is that which really makes it powerful. It is still IG though, with IG shooting, IG weaknesses.
How long have marines had it as good? It is no longer a game about going anti-MEQ, its about being able to take on whatever is out there, because the strength of the codices have equalled out.
If you go on forums like the B&C there is still more talk about how to beat SW or BA then there is IG, in fact its been a long time since anyone really brought that one up.

I am not say that IG haven't come out strong, but over powerfully so? Not seeing it. What I am seeing is them finally competing more on a level playing field instead of being underdogs.

jmboland, Then put out a balanced comment rather then crying "but they are ZOMFG BROKENZ!!!" Which is all you have contributed to this thread thus far.

Mixed BT is currently one of the strongest builds. You should try it rather than being a interweb sheep.

[Axel]

How long have marines had it as good? It is no longer a game about going anti-MEQ, its about being able to take on whatever is out there, because the strength of the codices have equalled out.


Renegade has summarised my wall of text from a few pages back in a superbly abbreviated format. Guard are no longer viewed as "easy beats" (not that they ever were, imho) and are thus chosen as tournament armies more frequently. This upsets the tournament meta-game because all those anti-MEQ weapons you're packing are now as effective as lascannons against the green tide. Thus, Guard prevail more easily because people are still (subconsciously?) tailoring to fight MEQ.

Mechanised Veterans were seen first on the tournament scene because you can buy them for less than a fortnight's salary, and get them assembled and painted in a month or two. They're still seen because, besides being effective, it's possible to physically transport the army in a single bag. Infantry based lists are rearing their head now because it takes a year or more to put together 1750 (or 2000, or 2500, or whatever) points of Guard infantry to a touranment standard, let alone find the foam and cases to transport them.

I'll state my opinion again, in short format. Stop tailoring, however subconsciously, to fight MEQ. Guard are more popular now than they have ever been. You WILL have to fight the Guard at some stage, so balance your army lists out a little more and get some practice against them.

[SquatCodex5thEd]

Strange that so many people feel this way. How long have folks been playing IG here? In 2nd edition, IG were underpowered pretty horribly. They had vortex grenades, but a couple of rigged Eldar skimmers could route half of the army. In 3rd edition, IG were crazily overpowered with Ordinance rules. There don't seem to be a lot of happy mediums.

5th edition IG tanks are excellent. That said, there are some downsides:

- Vehicle Squadrons in general are dangerous as Immobilized results in Destroyed. AP1 weapons mean 2/3 penetrating results will destroy an often expensive tank.

- IG Heavy Weapons teams have a very peculiar take on costing. Compared to Space Wolf Long Fangs, and IG Heavy Bolter costs 5 points more, gets an extra wound but loses out in every other respect, to include accuracy. Lascannons cost 5 points less, but don't forget the accuracy, and Missile Launchers cost 5 points more.

- Space Marine Drop Assault with Lucius Pattern Drop Pods. Unlikely to happen to this degree, but entirely possible for a Marine player to have 4 Dreadnoughts Assaulting IG in round 1. Each would likely destroy, or heavily inconvenience, an expensive IG tank. Tyranids have some heavy drop assault, too.

5 point Lasguns are a great deal, but their morale is bad. Compared to 3rd edition armies, I can see a problem, but isn't all of 5th edition that way? This book's more overpowered than the last one was, so buy more?

[DarkLink]

DarkLink, And after some low powered codices, they don't deserve one that is actually good.

.....? Why not? Every codex deserves to be good. There's no reason why any codex should be weaker than any other, excluding the fact that it is difficult to balance so many different codices.


The internal balance of the codex is good, it is that which really makes it powerful. It is still IG though, with IG shooting, IG weaknesses.

Exactly.



If you go on forums like the B&C there is still more talk about how to beat SW or BA then there is IG, in fact its been a long time since anyone really brought that one up.

Yeah, because SW and BA are still new enough that people are still trying to figure out how to beat it. IG have been around long enough that most people are used to what they can bring. Knowing how to beat an army, and having an easy time beating an army are two different things.



I am not say that IG haven't come out strong, but over powerfully so?


Well, it kinda sounded like you did:p. And IG have absolutely come out in the top tier with the new codex. But nothing is really overpowered in this game, excluding small things like an Inquisitor with Sanctuary against Daemons.

[DrLove42]

- Space Marine Drop Assault with Lucius Pattern Drop Pods. Unlikely to happen to this degree, but entirely possible for a Marine player to have 4 Dreadnoughts Assaulting IG in round 1. Each would likely destroy, or heavily inconvenience, an expensive IG tank. Tyranids have some heavy drop assault, too.

TBH this is my biggest gripe in 5th ed armies, not 100's of mech tanks, portable cover etc etc. The ability to drop troops down in turn 1/2 straight into someones lines, to immediatly kill the opponents best models is the most overpowered thing in the world.

[Duke]

After coming back from bolscon I have to say that ig is not overpowered. I was Really worried about mech ig, but when I came across them I almost tabeldd the guy but we couldn't finish due to time restraints.

The problem with mech is that in the hands of an experienced mech ig they are devastating, but a lot of people bring the list and don't know how to use it, then it is just like any other list

Duke

[erwos]

After coming back from bolscon I have to say that ig is not overpowered. I was Really worried about mech ig, but when I came across them I almost tabeldd the guy but we couldn't finish due to time restraints.
Or, maybe:
1. You were a much better player than him
2. He took a non-optimized list
3. You got lucky on the dice rolls compared to him

One battle is not enough to make sweeping evaluations of the strength of an army - especially one as diverse as the IG.

[Old_Paladin]

I think one of the considerations about what makes guard a strong army is the ease at which it can break the "rock, paper, scissors" approach that has become popular in the metagame*

IG can do two things that upset this approach:
First: it can build any type of primary build and be very good at it; it can be all mech, or all hoard, it can be an alpha strike hammer, it can play a strong reserve deployment game and/or a strong reserve denial game, it can play the fast movement/'refused flank' game (that eldar used to be king of); there is even the one-trick pony to make them a close combat army (if that floats your boat).
Second: it might be the only army that lets you easily blend every potential army style in the same army at the same time. and a fast force (with a flight of Valks/Ven's and hellhounds) and outflankers (a tallarian platoon and sentinals) and alpha strike (russes and manticores) and mech (a couple of chim's) all in a single army at the same time.

They have the ability to both specialize or generalize very easily.
Many armies only have a handful of styles most people play: if it's chaos marines it'll have 'zerkers, plague's and oblits.
If it's codex marines it'll tend to be a Vulcan hammer/flame/ melta spammer, a first and tenth, or a drop army.
Guard could be anything (although it tends to run psykers, vets, chim's, ven's and manticores).


*as a personal note, I don't believe that the game is actually rock/paper/scissors; that's a choice that people made and then a logical backlash to it; namely that mech became popular, then anti-mech made a logical counter-move, now hoard/lack of mech is coming around to deny people the effectiveness of mass melta. Single-minded specialties natually have a strong weakness; but that doesn't mean that the game is built on specialties (each and every codex is clearly made to be able to play with many different play styles).

[Renegade]

Well, it kinda sounded like you did. And IG have absolutely come out in the top tier with the new codex. Same with most of the 5ed codices, name a codex that is not 5ed that is considered top tier. Non of the new codices are not strong, which is my point.


Many armies only have a handful of styles most people play: if it's chaos marines it'll have 'zerkers, plague's and oblits.
If it's codex marines it'll tend to be a Vulcan hammer/flame/ melta spammer, a first and tenth, or a drop army. Which there is plenty of tactics on the web on how to beat. There are plenty of other options, OK, CSMs got hit by the nurf hammer, but that can't be partly blamed on the crying that they were OP.

Either way, thats players restricting themselves and has little to do on how powerful another codex is, you play something enough, you get good at beating it.

[Brettila]

As a slight aside, just check out the participants in the recent 'Ard Boy Regionals. In the one, IG were on 5 of 6 tables. There were IG scattered all over the place. I think that says something about the army right there. The other army that was all over was SW...hmmm And people jumped all over me for having the audacity to make a non-pro SW comment once...

[scadugenga]

If you compare say a Vendetta to a Falcon you can see how good you have it. For 130 you have the same armour. Thats it. You have deep strike, better capactiy, scout, and 3 Twinlinked S9 AP2 guns. We'd have 1 S8 AP2 and 1 S5 AP4 gun for the same points.

I know which one i'd rather have...

Makes me hope for a new 'dar codex soon. ;)

Don't forget the Ven comes with extra armor included, and the Falcon needs to pay the points for spirit stones.

Though holo-fields make the Falcon able to survive more than a Ven could.

[BuFFo]

Makes me hope for a new 'dar codex soon. ;)

Don't forget the Ven comes with extra armor included, and the Falcon needs to pay the points for spirit stones.

Though holo-fields make the Falcon able to survive more than a Ven could.

I'd take a Falcon over a Vendetta any day. The survivability of a Falcon Transport far outweighs the offense capability of a Vendetta before it gets shot down on turn 1.

[scadugenga]

I'd take a Falcon over a Vendetta any day. The survivability of a Falcon Transport far outweighs the offense capability of a Vendetta before it gets shot down on turn 1.

I would too, but then I've been playing Eldar for 20 years, and mostly infantry based Guard for less than 2. :D

And with a Falcon, at least I have a chance at getting cover saves...

[Cyberscape7]

I do agree that the Imperial Guard are not over powered. I played a game against an infantry army with orks and only the ratlings survived. The main reason people probably think their overpowered is because they can have LOTS of tanks.
Tank=death...

[Renegade]

Given that the Leafblower got a kicking at ETC, and by Nids, I can't see how IG can not be called balanced.

[Vaktathi]

As someone who is working on a 3rd Imperial Guard army, I'll interject with my thoughts.

IG are a very strong and powerful army. Are they overpowered? Next to basically any book written in the past couple years I'd say no. However I think pretty much anything older than that (except maybe CSM's) they are probably OP, but every other book in that range probably is too in comparison. I certainly don't see how a solid Mech IG army or good SW list is in any way balaned with even the greatest Tau armies, it's going to take more dice luck and skill to win with the Tau list.

There are several reasons however why many people consistently have problems with Imperial Guard.

First and foremost I find is that they come prepared to fight Marines, which usually also works against other armies like Eldar, Tau and Daemons, and sometimes Nids depending on build. Even when they include anti-horde stuff, they still have a lot of points sunk into decidedly anti-marine gear.

Now, Lightning Claws, Powerweapons, Plasma Cannons Thunderhammers and the like are great against Marines, MC's, and even against stuff like Ork Nobz and Crisis Suits. Against IG however, they are almost totally worthless, they are a detriment more than anything else in most cases. Powerfists and Thunderhammers are still rather useful in an AT role but that's it, while the Lightning Claws and Powereweapons and whatnot are not necessary, they are wasted points. A Plasma cannon will scare a Tac marine squad, but for an IG infantry squad, a Frag Missile is almost as scary, and a Havoc Launcher is even scarier despite being less powerful. A couple of basic Space Marines getting into a 10man IG infantry squad typically will defeat them. You don't need anything more than that, and often you really actually won't want to destroy that IG unit on a charge, you want to kill it in the IG players assault phase so you don't get shot at before you move on. By dumping so many points into CC and AP2 oriented upgrades, you are basically wasting points against Imperial Guard. When you see an army that has 10-30% of its points in heavy CC upgrades and AP2 weapons, you're already starting out at a handicap against an IG army.

Second, which I see depressingly often, is people trying to outshoot IG. I see this all the time despite the fact that it really should be common sense. Now, some armies don't really have much of a choice, Tau are decidedly at a disadvantage against IG. However your Marine gunline is not going to outshoot my IG gunline, stop trying it. STOP IT. Your Vindicators and Rifleman Dreads are not on an even footing with my Hydras, Demolishers and Vendettas.

Third, people do not make use of the magical and wonderful ability to initiate a multiple assault. I've had innumerable situations where an opponent hits one unit when they could hit three and reliably win, but only hit one, or where they can get a powerfist and a bunch of krak grenades into two or even three chimeras but only hit one. *HIT THEM ALL*. Seriously a 10man tac squad or unit of Scorpions assault an infantry platoon in a Ruins should hit all 3 units in there, not just one. That way, you are going to kill all three unless the dice gods turn the world upside down, and you'll probably clear them all out on *my* assault phase, meaning you are spared a round of shooting. Don't just hit the one and then sit in the open.

Finally, yes, Tanks. IG can field more armor than any other army. This is fitting as they are *the* tank army, and always have been (it's just that tanks sucked in previous editions). This has little to do with Squadrons actually, you will very rarely see IG players take squadrons of the big killy tanks. What's really the kicker rather is Troops. IG can field a ton of AV12 tanks for fairly cheap in the Troops slots, that get to run around and act as mobile bunkers. For vets, less than 1000pts gets me 6 AV12 tanks, 60 dudes, 6 scoring units, 18 meltaguns, 6 autocannons, 6 multilasers, and 6 heavy bolters/heavy flamers. Likewise, utilizing Platoons, one can fit 36 AV12 tanks carrying 330 Infantry just in Troops, or more realistically 8 AV12 tanks holding 70 infantry in two troops choices in a 2000pt game. While I don't necessarily think that's too horrific in all honesty, it's not something most people really think of when building an all comers army.


You have to fight IG differently than the more more well rounded armies like Eldar and Space Marines. IG are an army that wins, and wins hard, by attrition, and if an opponent isn't coming prepared for that, it's very easy for the IG to slaughter opponents taking relatively few casualties. I see so many armies come prepared to carve through all the armor saves in the world, but not have enough AT or the raw attack numbers needed to destroy IG. Most armies are capable of fitting that in there, but just don't. If you are having problems with IG, try dropping those Powerweapons, Plasma Cannons, or Starcannons, and add in another Tac Squad, or more Dire Avengers and see how that works out.

[Porty1119]

When you say Rifleman Dreadnought, are you comparing the Dread to a Rifleman AA 'Mech from BattleTech? They look kinda similar, and both have dual Autocannons...

[MC Tic Tac]

When you say Rifleman Dreadnought, are you comparing the Dread to a Rifleman AA 'Mech from BattleTech? They look kinda similar, and both have dual Autocannons...

Hydra autocannons has longer range and has an extra heavy bolter, can be taken in squadrons and is nearly half the price of a rifleman dread.

And ingnore turbo boosting cover saves too.

[Vaktathi]

When you say Rifleman Dreadnought, are you comparing the Dread to a Rifleman AA 'Mech from BattleTech? They look kinda similar, and both have dual Autocannons...

Yar, that's where it comes from :D

[scadugenga]

As someone who is working on a 3rd Imperial Guard army, I'll interject with my thoughts.

IG are a very strong and powerful army. Are they overpowered? Next to basically any book written in the past couple years I'd say no. However I think pretty much anything older than that (except maybe CSM's) they are probably OP, but every other book in that range probably is too in comparison. I certainly don't see how a solid Mech IG army or good SW list is in any way balaned with even the greatest Tau armies, it's going to take more dice luck and skill to win with the Tau list.

There are several reasons however why many people consistently have problems with Imperial Guard.

First and foremost I find is that they come prepared to fight Marines, which usually also works against other armies like Eldar, Tau and Daemons, and sometimes Nids depending on build. Even when they include anti-horde stuff, they still have a lot of points sunk into decidedly anti-marine gear.

Now, Lightning Claws, Powerweapons, Plasma Cannons Thunderhammers and the like are great against Marines, MC's, and even against stuff like Ork Nobz and Crisis Suits. Against IG however, they are almost totally worthless, they are a detriment more than anything else in most cases. Powerfists and Thunderhammers are still rather useful in an AT role but that's it, while the Lightning Claws and Powereweapons and whatnot are not necessary, they are wasted points. A Plasma cannon will scare a Tac marine squad, but for an IG infantry squad, a Frag Missile is almost as scary, and a Havoc Launcher is even scarier despite being less powerful. A couple of basic Space Marines getting into a 10man IG infantry squad typically will defeat them. You don't need anything more than that, and often you really actually won't want to destroy that IG unit on a charge, you want to kill it in the IG players assault phase so you don't get shot at before you move on. By dumping so many points into CC and AP2 oriented upgrades, you are basically wasting points against Imperial Guard. When you see an army that has 10-30% of its points in heavy CC upgrades and AP2 weapons, you're already starting out at a handicap against an IG army.

Second, which I see depressingly often, is people trying to outshoot IG. I see this all the time despite the fact that it really should be common sense. Now, some armies don't really have much of a choice, Tau are decidedly at a disadvantage against IG. However your Marine gunline is not going to outshoot my IG gunline, stop trying it. STOP IT. Your Vindicators and Rifleman Dreads are not on an even footing with my Hydras, Demolishers and Vendettas.

Third, people do not make use of the magical and wonderful ability to initiate a multiple assault. I've had innumerable situations where an opponent hits one unit when they could hit three and reliably win, but only hit one, or where they can get a powerfist and a bunch of krak grenades into two or even three chimeras but only hit one. *HIT THEM ALL*. Seriously a 10man tac squad or unit of Scorpions assault an infantry platoon in a Ruins should hit all 3 units in there, not just one. That way, you are going to kill all three unless the dice gods turn the world upside down, and you'll probably clear them all out on *my* assault phase, meaning you are spared a round of shooting. Don't just hit the one and then sit in the open.

Finally, yes, Tanks. IG can field more armor than any other army. This is fitting as they are *the* tank army, and always have been (it's just that tanks sucked in previous editions). This has little to do with Squadrons actually, you will very rarely see IG players take squadrons of the big killy tanks. What's really the kicker rather is Troops. IG can field a ton of AV12 tanks for fairly cheap in the Troops slots, that get to run around and act as mobile bunkers. For vets, less than 1000pts gets me 6 AV12 tanks, 60 dudes, 6 scoring units, 18 meltaguns, 6 autocannons, 6 multilasers, and 6 heavy bolters/heavy flamers. Likewise, utilizing Platoons, one can fit 36 AV12 tanks carrying 330 Infantry just in Troops, or more realistically 8 AV12 tanks holding 70 infantry in two troops choices in a 2000pt game. While I don't necessarily think that's too horrific in all honesty, it's not something most people really think of when building an all comers army.


You have to fight IG differently than the more more well rounded armies like Eldar and Space Marines. IG are an army that wins, and wins hard, by attrition, and if an opponent isn't coming prepared for that, it's very easy for the IG to slaughter opponents taking relatively few casualties. I see so many armies come prepared to carve through all the armor saves in the world, but not have enough AT or the raw attack numbers needed to destroy IG. Most armies are capable of fitting that in there, but just don't. If you are having problems with IG, try dropping those Powerweapons, Plasma Cannons, or Starcannons, and add in another Tac Squad, or more Dire Avengers and see how that works out.

I agree with 99.95% of this.

The .05% being that no eldar player reliably takes starcannon anymore. The nerf, and the prevalence of cover saves means the scatter laser or EML is taken more often. ;)