GK stuff

[DarkLink]

Mad Cow Crazy's been hard at work over here (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65065) at Heresy Online, so I figured I'd post some of the new rumors there.




Originally Posted by Jared van Kell
As it stands from my source (and no I will not tell you my source for obvious reasons) it goes like this. As I said this is still a work in progress so it is likely this may have changed.

Normal Grey Knights/Justicar - Powerweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+.
Grey Knight Terminators/Paladin - Powerweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+ (Possibility may be master-crafted)
Brother Captain - Forceweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+ (Possibility may be master-crafted)
Grand Master - Forceweapon, Wounds daemons on a 2+, Re-roll invulnerable saves (Again possibility may be master-crafted).

With regards to the terminators the Nemesis Forceweapon will not be the main draw but rather the psychic powers that the Paladin will be able to use, which will be quite nasty. I also have heard that they will be retaining their ability to take thunder hammers and storm shields but again at an increased cost similar to the Blood Angels.

Please remember these are still only rumours and should be treated as such until further confirmation arrives. Apply salt and/or common sense to taste.

I'm not a fan of "wound this, and only this, particular army on a whatever" sort of thing, as it's very tough to avoid it turning into rock-paper-scissors, but the psychic power/Paladin stuff sounds cool.

I also really like the idea of being able to mix in THSS Termies for, say, +5pts each.



Originally Posted by Lord Borak
Just a wee snippet I heard about the new Kngihts. Terminators will be plastic, New walkers that looked like they were straight out of Matrix 3. Crewed by Knights.

Plus some Dark Eldar stuff but we don't care about that

New walkers sounds interesting. Very interesting *strokes beard thoughtfully*

Now, Mad Cow Crazy posted a comparison picture between the Matrix APCs and Penitent Engines. They do look very similar. I don't think that this means Sisters will be in the codex (the rumor does say that it is a Knight crewing the walker, not an... er... penitent person), but it may very well be some variant.


Originally Posted by Bindi Baji
GK codex is currently being put together (fluff, art) and playtesting is happening now.
dead centre january is the date it's pencilled in for,
curiously enough the date seems to be more "in stone" then anything not related to 8th edition fantasy.

additionally there is CSM + O&G chatter

January matches a lot of other sources and common speculation. Talk of CSMs is new, though. They may be one of the next non-SM codices. And if we're lucky, we won't have to put up with any more Chaos players whining non-stop about their codex:rolleyes::p.


Originally Posted by Jawaballs
Grey Knight Rumors: Incoming Storm Raven!
Based on reliable sources, the Storm Raven will be making it's debut this September, along with plastic GK terminators and a plethora of other models. What does this mean for all of our sweet little conversions? Were they a waste of time? Hell no, we had fun didnt we?

This makes perfect sense. Get everyone hyped up about the Storm Raven via the Blood Angels, then tie it in to a new GK codex for a purchasing frenzy.

And, if this is true, I'll come back from a 10 day backpacking trip just in time to get a box of new plastic Terminators:D

[SierraFiveOne]

I agree with you about the whole anti-demon thing. It seems like you lose a huge amount of perks if you don't regularly play against demon armies.

Also, Chaos Space Marines need to get back in line. Necrons were there first.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, and it's not fair against Daemons, either. It's really hard to have an army that is well balanced against everyone when you have a bunch of special rules that make you really good against one army. You either end up balanced against most armies, but are broken against that one, or are balanced with that one and underpowered against all the others.

But I still suspect Necrons will come before CSMs. If the first whispers about CSMs are starting, that still means they are a long ways off.

[fuzzbuket]

i think that they shoul just keep the force weapons the way it is, and another reason for doing that is if most dont play deamons well se vaannilla GK THSS termies rather than cool halbard SB termies :D also whats a deamon?, could nids be deamons with the hive mind, AVATARS, possesed ,deamons . what about ig renegades or CSm?

and if you do have a seamon army youll probs play against gk with another army :P

they should do it like it is now: (when released 3rd ed)

balanced vs everything else

murderous towards deamons but deamons get say sustained attack :D

(now all we need is a fantasy 40k crossover so the orodos maullus can sort out fantasy :P)

[rbryce]

looking good. as to the daemon stomping weapons, i guess they could allow an extra points percentage for the opposing player if their army has daemons.

[Venris]

Or just keep the daemonic infestation rule?

[Malkov]

yaya, 2+ seems a bit extreme when people spend most all of thier pts on T5/6 models in DoC lists.

*shrugs* Maybe it'll be balanced by either Force Weapons getting standardized or like what's been said they have something akin to "Daemon Infestation" still.

[UltramarineFan]

Chaos Space Marines!!!! :D I would love this to be true though 1) I don't think it will happen that early and 2) I really don't know where I'll get the money for more power armour goodness

[HsojVvad]

So would this mean that GK are only good against Deamons and not so good agaisnt everyone else? Or is there going to be a rule where you play non deamon players they get to have deamons in their army then?

If this is the case then whos job is it to make shure your opponent will have enough deamons to play with then? Will this mean everyone will have to buy deamons and paint and model them just in case they fight a GK, or will it be up to the GK player to let his opponent borrow his minis?

[DarkLink]

So would this mean that GK are only good against Deamons and not so good agaisnt everyone else? Or is there going to be a rule where you play non deamon players they get to have deamons in their army then?

If this is the case then whos job is it to make shure your opponent will have enough deamons to play with then? Will this mean everyone will have to buy deamons and paint and model them just in case they fight a GK, or will it be up to the GK player to let his opponent borrow his minis?

And this is exactly why I don't like anti-Daemon-specific rules. Well put. Hopefully it's either a minor aspect of the codex meant as just a nice little bonus, or it's somehow extremely well done and ends up being balanced. I don't think I trust GW's ability to balance codices quite that much, though, so I'm hoping for the former.

[Chuck777]

Not liking the anti-Daemon rules at all.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

BAsically, the use of Grey Knights really should be as an addition to an existing Imperial force or as an ally. As people have quite rightly said, if you're a daemon player, why would you want to fight a Grey Knights army? For Grey Knights to become a viable army, they would need to focus on their psychic abilities and their purity of purpose, not just the ability to slay daemons. I would tone down their anti-daemon abilities very slightly and include some more general powers tied in with the other cool points about Grey Knights - their unswerveable faith. Perhaps they would get a high ward save against psychic powers? Feel no pain maybe? I just think that gearing them to fight against Chaos alone (despite that being their actual role within the 40K universe) means that they have limited appeal due to no Chaos player willing to be at a disadvantage in playing them. Therefore, they are only going to be an ally with Marines, Guard or Sisters anyway. I would rather they produce them as small, exceptionally powerful Elites and HQ to fight alongside these forces than an army in their own right.

[Mr.Pickelz]

something i find disturbing is that SW rune priests wound daemons on a 2+ with their runic weapons. it says it on the last line at the bottom of the page. i do agree with the gear keeping the same but with some points editing so their balanced. also, it'd be sweet if we could see more power usage, like justicars using 1 power instead of the squad shooting, or something along those lines. one power that seems OP when used against daemons (and i hope they keep it) is Sanctuary, moves daemon models 3" away "can effectively end combat" and no daemon may take los through the unit, and if a daemon deep strike scatters on top of unit, their destroyed outright, no mishap table... they just need a points and warger update, and some new units, other then that the codex is just fine

[DarkLink]

What GW needs to realize is that there are better ways of making one army good against another than simply giving them rules that are specific to that army. Just give them abilities that are good against that particular army, but work against everyone as well.

However, GKs certainly shouldn't be just an allying force. For one thing, they already have a codex, so they won't be relegated to a secondary status, nor should they. If GW drops my army, then there's no reason for me to just completely switch over to Warmachine. Also, if Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or any other variant SM chapter deserves a codex, then GKs deserve one more, seeing as they are, by far, the most "divergent" chapter by a huge margin. They don't even have any of the same statlines, for crying out loud. And, of course, GK act on their own as often as not. There's no reason why they would only ever deploy with other Imperial forces.





Oh, and it'd have to be one really, really good psychic power if you had to sacrifice your entire squad's shooting phase just to use it. No, just give the Justicar psychic powers, and let the number of the squad affect the power, but all the other GKs need to do is just feed their power to the Justicar. The Justicar would do all the hard work, the rest of the squad should act as normal.

Unless, of course, it was a really, really powerful psychic power.

[DrLove42]

The whole murdering demons on a 2+ is perfect from a fluff point of view, not at all for gameplay sense. GK turn up to wipe the floor with demonic incursions, they don't get involved in putting down an Ork waaagh or defending the trenches from some attacking Tau. Their job is purely murderin' some warp beasties.

Maybe give them standard weapons (normal and power), but all sucesful invulnerables are re-rolled, cos that'd hurt a lot of demons more than it'd hurt Orks or other Marines, to fit with the fluff, but not be so dominating that no demon goes near them

[DarkLink]

Some stuff from Warseer:http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269877



Maybe give them standard weapons (normal and power), but all sucesful invulnerables are re-rolled, cos that'd hurt a lot of demons more than it'd hurt Orks or other Marines, to fit with the fluff, but not be so dominating that no demon goes near them

Right, having rules that work against everyone, but just happen to be really good against Daemons in particular (but potentially good against certain other armies as well), is a much better way to go than having a bunch of Daemon-specific rules.

[Jokubas]

What GW needs to realize is that there are better ways of making one army good against another than simply giving them rules that are specific to that army. Just give them abilities that are good against that particular army, but work against everyone as well.
Yeah, I was really hoping that they'd simply give the Grey Knights a playstyle that happens to work well against the type of army that the daemons are. I don't really know much about daemons, but to give an example, Grey Knights could have units that disrupt deep striking somewhat or something. You know, make them the tactical rock to the daemon's scissors. Not something that's specifically good against them and only them, but a setup where their main playstyle tends to do well against the main daemon playstyle.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I was really hoping that they'd simply give the Grey Knights a playstyle that happens to work well against the type of army that the daemons are. I don't really know much about daemons, but to give an example, Grey Knights could have units that disrupt deep striking somewhat or something. You know, make them the tactical rock to the daemon's scissors. Not something that's specifically good against them and only them, but a setup where their main playstyle tends to do well against the main daemon playstyle.

Right. Things like defensive grenades, ignoring invulnerable saves, lots of psychic defense, the ability to hit very hard, very fast, and the mobility to redeploy quickly would all be justified by being good against daemons, while still working well against most armies.

[DarkLink]

Oh, and Harry's chimed in, too.


QUOTE (Harry @ Aug 3 2010, 07:12 AM)
Great rumours but there is a fair mix of stuff in your first post. (Some is accurate some misses by a mile).
Can you identify the bits that are based on first hand info, collected rumours from the mintynet and the guesswork.
Maybe some sort of colour coding.

QUOTE (Harry @ Aug 3 2010, 07:12 AM)
The one thing I have posted about Grey Knights is they all wear artificer armour.

QUOTE (Harry @ Aug 3 2010, 07:12 AM)
No ... all I have said is they wear artificer armour.


QUOTE (Harry @ Aug 3 2010, 07:12 AM)
The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.
Not right after .... a little while after.

So, some of Stickymonkey's stuff is accurate, but not all. And Harry's mentioned Artificer Armor repeatedly now...

[DrLove42]

So read that last bit (sisters started after, but not right after) as being when GK come out there'll be another codex in the middle then sisters?

[DarkLink]

Or at the least, that there will probably be a new Sisters codex sometime next year, if not right after GKs.

And here's some more rumor comments;


Harry is absolutely right.
I have tried very hard to make sure everyone is aware my sources are not 100% solid. I am privy to "some" early design side info, and "some" PT notes or 2nd hand accounts. Occasionally I will be told information that is "permissible" to publish but always with the caveat that I may be fed misinformation. From what I've said in the past I think a few people here may know exactly what I do. But I still have to write a disclaimer up each time I post.

Back to info:
The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

The box sets should all be plastic.

I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons.

Some models "may" be on display at GDUK.

[Brass Scorpion]

if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffyHuh? Forge World has been making a Grey Knights Dreadnought for years and I have never heard any comments about it other than it looks cool and people would like to have one. So did I and I bought one a couple years ago when the Battle Bunker still stocked Forge World items.

[steeldragon]

Releasing a GK dreadnought is an excellent opportunity to do a librarian dread or a lightning claw dread as pictured in the BA codex (the lightning claw dread, not the librarian one).

Andres

[DarkLink]

Huh? Forge World has been making a Grey Knights Dreadnought for years and I have never heard any comments about it other than it looks cool and people would like to have one. So did I and I bought one a couple years ago when the Battle Bunker still stocked Forge World items.

In the fluff, GK Dreads are very rare. Grey Knights only want to rest after they fall in battle, entirely reasonable considering they literally fight the most horrible things in the entire universe.

Thus, it's not likely we'll see something like in the BA codex, where you can have Dreadnoughts in virtually every slot. GK Dreads will likely be Elite only, or something similar.

[cheesyfluff]

Am i right in saying the Grey Knighs were held back in favour of the Dark Eldar? Ie only one release spot left this year, Dark Eldar got it?

If so it could mean Sisters are all but done too. Although if they are not going to release them back to back, well with a fantasy release in between as usual it kinda begs the questions who else gets some love?

As a rough guess, and i mean guess! It looks like Grey Knights, Fantasy release, Necrons, Fantasy Release, Sisters.

Although there are also 2 Marine codexs due an update, Dark Angels and Black Templars. I am sure from a finance point of veiw if nothing else GW won't go a whole year without a Marine release. And both of those armies don't even need many new models. It means for a low cost/risk they can sell a load of existing stock.

Ah i remember the good old days of a few years back when we pretty much knew the entire years releases by March.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I know that some people will want to defend their GK armies, and I concede that of course Grey Knights will deploy in force on their own at times, but surely it is only when there is a significant demonic incursion? Why would you send a whole army of daemon slayers to destroy, say, a demonically possessed demagogue leading traitor IG? Or a Chaos Marine army who MIGHT be led by a daemon prince? I think it far more likely that they would dispatch small contingents of up to 1000 points to deal with anything other than a daemonic incursion. You can fluff any scenario up to suit the situation - it just doesn't feel as right to me when an army of Grey Knights is fighting anything other than daemons WITH THEIR CURRENT RULES. Space Marines are supposed to sort out the problem conflicts that IG and the Ecclesiarchy to some extent cannot handle, i.e. when it involves Xenos or Chaos marines (well, that seems largely to be the case anyway), the SOB handle the rogue psykers and Grey Knights with daemons. Their deployment is exceptional, so why should they be battling all and sundry? Their purpose would need to vastly change before I could ever except them as anything other than task specific. And I own a fair few Grey Knights myself! (Well, 12 terms, 10 marines and Stern).

[Lerra]

. I am sure from a finance point of veiw if nothing else GW won't go a whole year without a Marine release.

It's possible that Grey Knights will count as GW's yearly marine release. I remember a statement from a higher-up in GW about a year ago stating that the DA/BT were not being worked on at the time, and wouldn't even be on the table for a while. At this point, I'm just hoping that DA get released early in the 6th ed cycle. It would be nice to avoid another late-edition update.

[Lockark]

I play Chaos Deamons, but I also play CSM and Traitor Guard. (All three armies slaanesh dedicated.) I can't help but think, "If Grey Knights get bonuses ageist my daemons, why should I unpack my deamons when I play a Grey Knight player? Why not play another army and not be at a disadvantage?"

But what also bugs me is:

GW has been systematically removing all war gear that targets specif armies. Instead opting for war gear with more generic/wide spread use. Why would they suddenly back pedal and start pushing Anti-Codex:Chaos Deamons war gear in there newest codex?



I think there is something we're missing here, or this latest batch of rumours may be compromised/misinformed. As to me something doesn't seem to be adding up here.

[cheesyfluff]

It's possible that Grey Knights will count as GW's yearly marine release. I remember a statement from a higher-up in GW about a year ago stating that the DA/BT were not being worked on at the time, and wouldn't even be on the table for a while. At this point, I'm just hoping that DA get released early in the 6th ed cycle. It would be nice to avoid another late-edition update.

Fair point but i think from a sales point of view they like releasing Marine codexs so much because not only do they sell all the new models specific for that codex but a load of Codex Marine stuff too like Whirlwinds, Land Raiders ect.

I do feel for Dark Angels and Black Templar players though, while not needing much in the way of updated models seeing your codex brothers get better gear, more rules ect is a bit harsh. I would love to see a Dark Angels codex! I want to start Dark Angels again!

That said, i also feel for all the Necron, Tau ect players out there. No army should be using a book from 2 editions ago.

[Melissia]

Tau use a fourth edition book.

[DarkLink]

Am i right in saying the Grey Knighs were held back in favour of the Dark Eldar? Ie only one release spot left this year, Dark Eldar got it?


We don't know, and it doesn't really matter. It's entirely possible that they simply finished DE first, so they are coming out first.



If so it could mean Sisters are all but done too. Although if they are not going to release them back to back, well with a fantasy release in between as usual it kinda begs the questions who else gets some love?


We don't know. And there's not any reason to try and read into it this much. Plus, it's not likely that GW has finished 3 codices all at the same time and are just waiting for the opportunity to release them. Sisters started a fair bit after GKs, and are likely not done yet.


I know that some people will want to defend their GK armies, and I concede that of course Grey Knights will deploy in force on their own at times, but surely it is only when there is a significant demonic incursion?

First off, Grey Knights don't exclusively fight Daemons. They fight Chaos in any and all forms. That means CSM, Traitor Guard, Space Marines, Daemons, Eldar/Dark Eldar, etc. And they can certainly fight Tau/Nidz/Orks (because who knows what those vile xenos are up to). A Grey Knight deployment against any of these forces is perfectly reasonable under the current fluff. Especially considering that the DH codex has a couple pages dedicated exclusively to why they might be fighting other armies.

Secondly, Grey Knights being one of the single largest SM chapters there is, it isn't unreasonable that they would deploy full armies. They have strike cruisers scattered across the Imperium, each of which carries a decent sized strike force of Grey Knights.

Sure, you're only likely to see 100+ Grey Knights in one place during a massive war. But that's a lot of Grey Knights, far more than most battles need.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I disagree with you entirely here. Grey Knights are first and foremost Daemon hunters. I will concede that they are likely to turn up to Chaos fights IF they're nearby. The other guys? Yeah, they include excuses to be fighting them, but it's not their primary function. Having to come up with excuses for a specialist wing of Space MArines every time they want to fight something other than Chaos is lame lame lame. Where is the evidence that Grey Knights are one of the largest chapters? I doubt that, don't mind if you can prove me wrong, but I was under the impression that those with a purity of soul and purpose were hard to find - plus evidence of these Grey Knight strike cruisers?

I can see why you wanna defend them as a viable army, and I'm not saying no-one should want to collect them and game with them, but they are first and foremost daemon hunters - I will always feel a little sad if they aren't battling Chaos, no matter what elaborate fluff is used as justification!

[fuzzbuket]

they should keep the list at the back of the book with tuff like :

the imperial general has a fancy warp artifact, the commander is corrupt,ect,ect

if they kept those 2 pages most would be happy ;)

[cheesyfluff]

Tau use a fourth edition book.

My bad, I probably should of worded that last line better.

Eitherway i still can't wait to see some older armies get some love, it gets boring playing against marines and guard every week!

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

If they made Dark Eldar look a little less like 80s Sci-Fi villains, I'd definitely consider them. If they made the Orks less of a comedy choice, I'd be more interested. I'm hoping the Ecclesiarchy get a good overhaul, I do actually want the Grey Knights to have better justifications for going to war against whoever they feel is chaotically connected, cos they ARE cool. They need a better Grand Inquisitor combatant other than the vagina in a giant walking throne (anyone else think that model was clown shoes?). I think the most amazing army could be a Mechanicus Army, with all the Skitarii and that sort of gubbins - that would totally kick buttocks. I would remortgage my house for a decent Mechanicus army!!!

[DarkLink]

I disagree with you entirely here. Grey Knights are first and foremost Daemon hunters. I will concede that they are likely to turn up to Chaos fights IF they're nearby.

Well, first off, you are flat out wrong about them being almost exclusively only Daemon hunter. It is very explicitly their purpose to fight Chaos in all its forms. Sure, if a major Daemonic incursion shows up, they're the best thing to fight it. But their missions are against chaos in all its forms. Nowhere is it states, or even implied in any way, shape or form that Grey Knights only fight Daemons.

I'll also point out that Daemonhunters is not a formal title. Grey Knights are not Daemonhunters. The Ordos Malleus Inquisitors are not Daemonhunters. That's just the title of a codex, or maybe a nickname they've garnered in fluff for being good at fighting Daemons.




The other guys? Yeah, they include excuses to be fighting them, but it's not their primary function. Having to come up with excuses for a specialist wing of Space MArines every time they want to fight something other than Chaos is lame lame lame. Where is the evidence that Grey Knights are one of the largest chapters? I doubt that, don't mind if you can prove me wrong, but I was under the impression that those with a purity of soul and purpose were hard to find - plus evidence of these Grey Knight strike cruisers?

Now, as I said earlier, as Grey Knights fight Chaos in all its forms, there's justification for fighting pretty much everyone right there. Chaos Marines (and by extension Space Marines who may have recently turned to Chaos, or are in danger of turning), Traitor Guard (and again, regular Guard in danger of turning), Dark Eldar (who may not technically worship Slannesh, but that's details), Eldar (who have a ton of involvement with Chaos themselves), and so on and so forth.

It's tougher to justify Tau, Orks and Necrons, but that's only 3 out of 16 armies in the game. Why get irritated over that, especially in a game that's as serious as 40k (meaning, not very serious. At least, I hope not. Otherwise you should go get a life:p).



There are roughly 3000 Grey Knights. That's second only to the Black Templar, and maybe the Space Wolves. Remember, the recruiting pool for the Grey Knights is the entire galaxy of humans. And they only find enough to maintain a force of 3000. Whereas there are over 1 million normal Space Marines.

As for the GK strike cruisers... how do you think the Grey Knights get around the frikin galaxy?! It's not like they hitchike:rolleyes:. Strike cruisers are established in the DH codex, and in a wide variety of different fluff sources including the GK books.



I can see why you wanna defend them as a viable army, and I'm not saying no-one should want to collect them and game with them, but they are first and foremost daemon hunters - I will always feel a little sad if they aren't battling Chaos, no matter what elaborate fluff is used as justification!


If you really care that much about your views on the fluff of a game and don't want to be flexible in those views... well, relax, it's a game. Most stuff in this game is played fast and loose anyways. And since GKs have a legal army, and there are GK players, there's not much reason to get rid of them over some vauge fluff reasoning. GW will just revise the fluff a little, if they even care about the conflict at all.

Besides, as I pointed out earlier, GW says that the GKs will fight anyone for a variety of reasons, and dedicate a few pages to these reasons in the DH codex. So you might disagree with me, but GW disagrees with you, and they're the ones who write the fluff:p.

[Tuatara]

...It's tougher to justify Tau, Orks and Necrons...

Not really:

Tau - Any race that progressed as fast as they did MUST have had help from dark forces, well, best to make sure and wipe the floor with them.

Orks - They look ugly enough to be daemonic - best to make sure and wipe the floor with them.

Necrons - In effect they are undead and that is only a tiny step from becoming daemons, best make sure and wipe the floor with them before they change.

Now we have all the excuses we need :D

[Lockark]

Tau- There a young race who do not fully understand the dark forces they are encountering. There navie, and willing to experiment with things that Humanitiy knows one should not experiment with.

The Grey knights run in a preemptive strike to stop the Tau from makeing a horrible mistake. Stopping them by whipping them out.


The Imperials would recognize Xeno gods are Chaos Entities like the big 4 chaos gods. So that covers Orks and Eldar.

Necrons- Easy. They need more C'Tan Phase swords! Not to mention the C'Tan could almost be considered demon-like.

[HsojVvad]

You guys forget to mention Tyranids. Why would GK fight Tyranids? :)

[DarkLink]

Ah, right. So 4 armies that are a little tricky to justify, rather than 3.

[DarkLink]

Seems the "wounds daemons on a 2+" was bull;


I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from.

From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

Cheers.

I'm not disappointed in the least.

[Duke]

LIke I said before, as long as the rules aren't completely backwards (Like when Dark Angels came out) then I will be starting a GK army.

After seeing how great the SW models were then to be trmped by the new kings of bling (Blood Angels) I can only assume that the plastics for Gk will be super sexy! In which case I will have to at least have one army.

Duke

[synack]

You guys forget to mention Tyranids. Why would GK fight Tyranids? :)

Dude, they're Tyranids, what other reason could you possibly need?

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Besides, as I pointed out earlier, GW says that the GKs will fight anyone for a variety of reasons, and dedicate a few pages to these reasons in the DH codex. So you might disagree with me, but GW disagrees with you, and they're the ones who write the fluff:p.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! A lot of things you've posted make sense, but some stuff doesn't.


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

The Ordo Malleus is indeed a secret branch within the Inquisition itself that utilises the Grey Knights as its Chamber Militant, which are in themselves supposed to be a secretive Chapter of Marines (at least to the general Imperial populace) who are specifically trained to fight, yes Chaos in all its forms, but c'mon, they specialise in DAEMONS!!!! They carry the Liber Daemonicum around their necks! They wear Aegis suits to protect them from the effects of the Immaterium and daemons! Which are covered in hexagrammic and anti-daemonic wards!! These guys are capable of fighting any army in 40K, but they are supposed to be anti-chaos (I concede you're right about that at least!) troops! I am not saying for one minute that no-one should use them as an army, not collect them etc - as I said, I'm champing at the bit for them to be revamped, but I will always feel the game is better when I'm fighting my Grey Knights against their intended foe. Come on, you know it's never the same against Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Tau, Space Marines, Guard - I know you can spin a good story out of it - it just isn't as satisfying as charging your Grey Knight terms into a horde of Bloodletters or Stern up against a Lord of Change, is it?!?!

Actually, although 40K is not the be all and end all of my life, it is a hobby I enjoy and play regularly (although I'm better at painting than I am at playing). The 'fluff' is what makes the game enjoyable to me, as it is such a rich universe in which to play. So although I would never turn down a game of 40K, I'm always more likely to enjoy a game in charge of Grey Knights if I'm playing Chaos!

[Lockark]

You guys forget to mention Tyranids. Why would GK fight Tyranids? :)

Well you see. The Deamons and Deamon hunters sould be fighting. But then a Tyranid invasion would come and start invading the planet they were fighting on..... So then the Deamons and deamon-hunters team up to drive back the tyranids.

Once the day was won they went there separate ways since they could not fight ageist the people they once stood back to back with ageist the tyranids.

[Drew da Destroya]

Well you see. The Deamons and Deamon hunters sould be fighting. But then a Tyranid invasion would come and start invading the planet they were fighting on..... So then the Deamons and deamon-hunters team up to drive back the tyranids. Once the day was won they went there separate ways since they could not fight ageist the people they once stood back to back with ageist the tyranids.

Ya know... I feel like I've read this exact story in 3 of the 3 most recent codexes...


The Blood Angels one made me the angriest, though.

[cheesyfluff]

Easy enough to justify really. They were investigating reports of daemonic incursions and we're set upon by 'insert army here'

They have just defeated a small warband of daemons when 'insert army here' shows up. Most armies could have a reason for following a warp rift to see whats there.

Failing that, The inquisition deemed the situation with 'insert army here' dire enough to need help and there was no other marine chapter free for 'insert diastance here'

Eitherway, when faced with a world being invaded by 'insert army here' they are still Space Marines and defenders of humanity and will not walk away from it.

Thats my take on it anyway. They are set up for fighting daemons, that doesn't mean when the brown stuff hits the fan in some way they won't chip in there buck 0 five.

[Lockark]

Ya know... I feel like I've read this exact story in 3 of the 3 most recent codexes...


The Blood Angels one made me the angriest, though.



That's kinda the point I was making. If something as crazy as a Blood Angle and Necron tag-Team up can be justified IN CANNON, then I really wouldn't worry about the demonhunter's fighting non-chaos armies.

40k's Fluff is not as rigid as some people like to say it is. There must have been some time in 40k's history were Grey Knights fought Nids, Eldar, Orks, ect.

[Porty1119]

Wait...what? BA and toaster team-up, in canon? That doesn't even make sense!

[Sparda]

Page 16 of the BA codex, 955.M41, The Gehenna Campaign. Apparently the toasters were to tired to fight after the big bugs came down to try to eat them and the blood angles were to ANNNND they didn't want to fight someone who they just fought against because the pretty space vampires didn't want to hurt those mean ol' toasters so they hurried home to re-apply there sparkles that washed off from all they're crying.

[Duke]

It isn't a team up as much as it is a "k let's stop shooting each other till those guys die" the part that i thought was weird is that they didn't go back to fighting after the tyrannies were gone... Not Ike the neurons to show emotions Ike mercy or for the angels of death to be veery forgiving.

Duke

[Lockark]

It isn't a team up as much as it is a "k let's stop shooting each other till those guys die" the part that i thought was weird is that they didn't go back to fighting after the tyrannies were gone... Not Ike the neurons to show emotions Ike mercy or for the angels of death to be veery forgiving.

Duke

If you read the newer fluff in the BRB, and then reading that story. It dose make some sence.


In the new fluff GW is pushing, the necrons are not all mindless automatons serving the C'tan. The Necron warrioirs them selfs are mindless automatons that serve the necron lords. But the Lords are not.

The Necron lords them selfs are smart and calculating individuals who are striving for there own personal Goals and desires. Some of them are tools of the C'tan(Current fluff). But many have other gone rouge or there C'tan they followed was destroyed during the "War in the heavens". These lords are now left to there own devices for the most part.

At the end of the story it was implied both the Necron and Blood Angles had a sort of mutual respect for each other after fighting off the nids. So it can be assumed the Necron Lord in question had some scene of honour and respect towords the blood angles.

[Duke]

I agree that this is the way that the fluff is going... And I hope the neuron codec only serves to reinforce that idea. However, it still isn't like those forces to "forgive." most marines respect ors orks on some level fro their sheer determination, but they arent going to stop filling them with Bolger rounds cause their too tired to fight. Know what i mean?

Duke

[Lockark]

I agree that this is the way that the fluff is going... And I hope the neuron codec only serves to reinforce that idea. However, it still isn't like those forces to "forgive." most marines respect ors orks on some level fro their sheer determination, but they arent going to stop filling them with Bolger rounds cause their too tired to fight. Know what i mean?

Duke

I bring the story up, because even in cannon the 40k cannon is fairly loose. As pointed out by said story.

=)

[Duke]

True, The cannon disagrees with itself or just outright doesn't make sense so much that I am just waiting for someone to post their ninety-five theses on the front door of their local gw store.

But in all honesty it must be so, if the cannon was literal and defined then we quite possibly would have a problem with very specific armies Ike gk and sisters... As has been argued before, if it was ultra-defined then saying "gks attack ors cause ors have a daemon weapon" might not be possible at all. With a fuzzy cannon we can manipulate that fin to pllausablility.

Duke

[DarkLink]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! A lot of things you've posted make sense, but some stuff doesn't.

Well, my point that GW itself feels that there is fairly easy justification for GKs fighting any army still stands:p. It's all there in the DH codex.


So although I would never turn down a game of 40K, I'm always more likely to enjoy a game in charge of Grey Knights if I'm playing Chaos!

No problems there. I'll just point out two things: 1. fluff can change, which GW is likely to do, and 2. Seeing as GKs are not only a current army, but also one that will not be getting squated, you'll have to respect the fact that I, and most other GK players (I presume, anyways), would like to play against more than just Chaos armies. Heck, there's only one Daemons player in my gaming group, and I've only played against his daemons once. If the only army I was allowed to play against was Daemons, I'd never get to play.

[DarkLink]

SSome interesting stuff from Stickmonkey


Stickmonkey over at Warseer posted a PT (Play Test) list of GKs vs an Ork army. It does seem GK will be the most expensive army in the game to field (points wise, lets hope GW dont ask for silly money for the models since you cant field too many of them).
As I suspected GKs will be getting Razorbacks and I think its safe to say the Storm Raven is now confirmed, then again this should be taken as rumours and its from PT so anything can change.
The 10man + chimera points towards IST still being in the codex.


Originally Posted by Stickmonkey
GK 2000pt AL from PT:

HQ
GM w Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dread - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ????? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies

All I've got for now, but this give an idea of how expensive GKs will be points wise. That is not much on the board for 2k, less than 30 models...
Some interesting stuff here, the TAGK TelePorted in turn 4, since they were already on the board. So it seems TAGK can teleport around the battlefield and assault in the turn they do so. Then again "later" could have meant turn 5. GK does seem like a real powerhouse at this point. Cry some more Daemon players....cry some more....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmonkey
The PT list posted was played against 2k of Orks including nobs, mek with kff, lots of boys in trukks, a BW and dread mob. It was C&C with DoW.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in RB came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The SR took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.


It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs

That all I got on followup. enjoy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickmonkey

Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

This sounds like I need to start saving up some cash. STAT!

[volrath8754]

I'm super pumped to see what is in the codex when it comes out!!!

[Duke]

A lot of pele, myself included will be starting a grey knight army. But seriously, 30 models in a list?! Does everyone have preferred enemy, hit and run, furious charge and feel no pain with a 2+ save?

I can't wait to see the new incarnation of the psycannon...st 6 ap 3 please?!

Duke

[fuzzbuket]

i can see GKs working VERY well with 3o models remember its probs 30 models in a 1500 pts which means youll hava a reasonably sized army, lots of eldar armys at 1500 are smaller than 40 models

and if we keep the S6 power weapons itll be fine

( and if we get to give ALL gks psy bolts free of charge)

duke if you are going to start GK have a squad or two work with your ba

i run a list like this and its VERY effective its shooty for holding objectives and they back up assault squads in CC :D

[DarkLink]

It was a 2000 point list.


A lot of pele, myself included will be starting a grey knight army. But seriously, 30 models in a list?! Does everyone have preferred enemy, hit and run, furious charge and feel no pain with a 2+ save?

I can't wait to see the new incarnation of the psycannon...st 6 ap 3 please?!

Duke

They get nightfight shrouding, too:D.


And, yes, supposedly these are the new stats for psycannons;
24" Str 6 AP 3 Assault 3 -or-
36" Str 6 AP 3 Heavy 1 Large Blast

[Tynskel]

I don't understand why the Grey Knights should get all of those special rules if they field less than 30 models in 2000 points... They are gunna get Stormravens and Dreadnoughts.


3 Stormravens, Multi-Meltas
2 Five man Assault Squads (Power Weapon, Hand Flamer, squad Flamer)
1 Five man Jump Pack Death Company with Power Weapons and Lemartes
3 Furiosos w/ Extra Armor and Magna Grapple, 2 with Blood Talons.
1 Sanguinor
=2000 points
That's 23 Models.

[DarkLink]

Heh, those are just joking speculation. We're pretty sure they have 2+ saves, and Shrouding might be nightfight based on what Stickmonkey has said, but other than that we don't really know anything.

[DarkLink]

So, apparently GK Aritficer Armor does not mean a 2+ save. And in this case it's a good thing;


Corrected Psycannon profile (updated with new info):
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.


Disclaimer: Please remember these are PT notes. These may not be in the final codex.

Eat that, Fateweaver:p.

[Duke]

Wow, rerolling everything is way better than feel no pain... Combine that with a st 6 ap3 assault 3 psycannon gk will be disgusting. The only thing i can think of is that maybe they won't be able to melta spam in squads. Which would mean that the psycannon would have to do the anti transport work.

Duke

[DarkLink]

Well, it sounds like GKs will have a significant number of new upgrade options (Stickmonkey said as much when someone asked why anyone would buy more than just a few new blisters, implying that the new plastics will have a whole bunch of brand new options).

But, yes, I doubt that there will be anything in the game quite like GKs. They'll almost certainly have options that let them deal with vehicles, but I don't think it will be melta spam. More likely, it will be a mix of psychic powers, new special weapons, and Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts and Storm Ravens.

Which, if you ask me, is a really good thing.

[synack]

nm, see you added the latest post.

GK will always stuggle against AV14, but thats what thunder hammers are for.

[DarkLink]

More from Stickmonkey;


Some bits:

Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works w/ SS. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)

'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT

'Shrouding' basically unchanged...aka nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor? IDK)

'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into diff terrain.

'Aegis' enemy Psykers w/i 12" take psychic tests with +1d6

I like the new Aegis. Basically Runes of Warding, which is a lot better than a psychic hood. The short range is still a bummer, but whatever.

[Hexx]

I want gks so badly they where my first army and I am just itching to go back to them..Plastic gks and gk terminators would alow me to die a happy man...

[Tynskel]

I want gks so badly they where my first army and I am just itching to go back to them..Plastic gks and gk terminators would alow me to die a happy man...

You r Dying? That Blows... well, hope you can hold out 'til January.

[HsojVvad]

I want gks so badly they where my first army and I am just itching to go back to them..Plastic gks and gk terminators would alow me to die a happy man...

Even if the prices are almost the same as for the metal minis? Don't be shocked if all you save is $5 or $10 buck than would have been done buy buying metal.

[Grey2321]

I want gks so badly they where my first army and I am just itching to go back to them..Plastic gks and gk terminators would alow me to die a happy man...

Even if the prices are almost the same as for the metal minis? Don't be shocked if all you save is $5 or $10 buck than would have been done buy buying metal.

While this'll probably be true, at least we'll have options aside from which NFW arm you want to use.

[Hexx]

Even if the prices are almost the same as for the metal minis? Don't be shocked if all you save is $5 or $10 buck than would have been done buy buying metal.
I dont mind if I only save £1 I just want plastic for so easyer conversions..Hell they can be the same price I will still be excited about it..

[MadCowCrazy]

I dont mind if I only save £1 I just want plastic for so easyer conversions..Hell they can be the same price I will still be excited about it..

So true, Id even be tempted to buy some sisters at their current prices if they were plastic.
Im sure they will be the same price as before since GK are such an elite army, they wont sell many boxes so why not have them expensive. Dont get me wrong now, they will sell a ton of boxes but I dont think everyone will want 5-10 boxes to be able to play.

[Hexx]

So true, Id even be tempted to buy some sisters at their current prices if they were plastic.
Im sure they will be the same price as before since GK are such an elite army, they wont sell many boxes so why not have them expensive. Dont get me wrong now, they will sell a ton of boxes but I dont think everyone will want 5-10 boxes to be able to play.
I already plan on buying 13 mwahahahah APOCALYPSE GK ARMY HAHAHAAHAHAH >:D

[DarkLink]

Even if the prices are almost the same as for the metal minis? Don't be shocked if all you save is $5 or $10 buck than would have been done buy buying metal.

Price isn't the issue. Plastic is infinitely better than metal in virtually every way. Metal used to hold more detail, but now that advantage is virtually non-existent.

You can drop plastic models without harm. You don't have to worry about scratching plastic. Plastic isn't as top-heavy, so it balances better. It's easier to assemble. It's easier to convert. A plastic army doesn't weigh 10 kilos. That's why plastic models will be so nice.

[Loken]

Have to agree that plastic is the way to go. GW is now very good at it. I have an all metal Sisters army (well, that is all there is!) but would buy more if there were new plastics.

The Immolater kit really helped update my army with all the bitz.

[Tuatara]

Have to agree that plastic is the way to go.

You're right to a certain degree. You have to admit though, there is something rather satisfying about picking up a model and it having a decent weight to it.

I have a metal Dread and a plastic dread and when I am using only one of them, it's the metal one that goes to battle whilst the plastic one stays at home and bakes cookies for the troops that make it back.

[MadCowCrazy]

If I remember correctly GW has invested in either the plastic producing company or the mould tooling company. I know they have plans to invest in both atleast, it was in their latest report. This means that by the end of next year they should own the whole chain basically. They create their own plastic, they create their own moulds and they create their own miniatures.
This should mean more plastic kits, maybe we will see more commander kits like that space marine commander (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod1050240) plastic kit they have.

I guess all that would be left after this would be for them to buy up the company that prints their box art for them unless they allready do this.

[DarkLink]

You have to admit though, there is something rather satisfying about picking up a model and it having a decent weight to it.

There's also a much better something to seeing your model knocked off the table to the floor, then picking it up and realizing it hasn't been damaged at all:p

[Melissia]

And it's easier to glue plastic than metal...

[Deadlift]

I find metal much harder to deal with when doing conversions too, Plastic is much nicer. If the new GK are going to have as much detail as last years space hulks blood angels then that would be great.

[DarkLink]

I'm hoping they do a GK Space Hulk expansion, too. I'd buy that.

[MadCowCrazy]

If they made a GK or SoB Space Hulk type thing with plastic models every WH and DH player out there would buy tons of boxes to get the models they need for their armies.

Argh! Stop giving GW ideas like this, it would be expensive as hell to get all the models Id need but I would still buy them, crying as I click "Complete Payment" on my Paypal account ;(

[Melissia]

Why should we stop giving them ideas?

Maybe they'll grow a brain and actually ACT on one of the ideas, providing them more profit and us more newer, better models and newer, better rules...

[Tynskel]

Why should we stop giving them ideas?

Maybe they'll grow a brain and actually ACT on one of the ideas, providing them more profit and us more newer, better models and newer, better rules...

Ya know, that's what GW has been doing--- look at the last for 5 codex releases-- giving the players really cool stuff, really fun rules, and new things too!


Hell, they are supposed to be releasing Dark Eldar soon (which I won't believe it until I C it!)!

[Melissia]

Yes... for three Marine codices, a single xenos codex which nobody expected to be updated so soon, and one codex that deeply needed it in Guard.

If they focus on the third edition codices starting now and do them exclusively until there are none left, I'll believe GW has actually learned that leaving things in the dust for so long is bad for profit margins :P

[heartbitt]

Yesterday I got "officially" noted, by a very reliable source, GK ranges are FULLY done, in facy they're fully done sometime ago, as the DE, the minis are superb, most on platic, like lately, and the quality is as "worse" as like DE. SH, was really the tesbed with the new injection systems (the first test was AoBR, but they not push to hard the system), the Eavy Metal team has finished the search for chromatic pallete, thistime the GK are not more shinny silver, the definition used on the studio is now they've more "dismal" look, Stormraven is in, as well, a very special character. GW almost got the date release.

[oiad]

Darn that's good if true. The last time I heard about the models the source stated they were far from finished. So either GW got their butt in gear or someone's lying.

Without trying to sound too greedy, is there any other news as to what will receive the plastic treatment?

EDIT 12/10/10 - Quote edited out - unneeded.

[MarneusCalgar]

All ranges we see for this years are finished from one year ago until now...

You think they pass the day everytime withouth doing nothing but painting in the Studio?

[Force21]

the Eavy Metal team has finished the search for chromatic pallete, thistime the GK are not more shinny silver, the definition used on the studio is now they've more "dismal" look.


???


no more pure shinny power armor?

like so...

http://www.mi40k.com/wp-content/uploads/Grey-Knight.jpg

btw that is a pretty bad@ss GK.


other then that... good news I guess.

can't wait but still need to save up some cash.

[DarkLink]

Well, I paint my GKs a dark gunmetal with glowing blue runes anyways

[DarkLink]

Incidentally, I just had an interesting idea. There's a rumor about shrouding becoming nightfight, but current shrouding is time consuming having to roll each time your enemy shoots. What if instead your opponent rolled once per turn, and used that roll for his result.

That would also open up the possibility of a character/unit being able to force your opponent to reroll the shrouding for that turn if he rolled really well...



Not that this is anything but speculation/wishlisting, but I think that would be a cool system.

[oiad]

All ranges we see for this years are finished from one year ago until now...

You think they pass the day everytime withouth doing nothing but painting in the Studio?
I'd like to think they'd have finished them. But I don't work there and try to avoid making presumptions, even when GW has a policy for such things. And as I said, it's the last thing I heard someone mention about the subject. It's not necessarilly what I believe is true.

[Brass Scorpion]

I'd like to think they'd have finished them. If indeed this is a release that is coming within a few months, they've been done for a long time. They are also boxed and ready to go. Major releases are usually finished months ahead of time, even more than a year (e.g., someone from the Nottingham studio told me that Island Of Blood was boxed and ready last year, then they had to have it sit patiently till the planned release date).

[Old_Paladin]

If indeed this is a release that is coming within a few months, they've been done for a long time. They are also boxed and ready to go. Major releases are usually finished months ahead of time, even more than a year (e.g., someone from the Nottingham studio told me that Island Of Blood was boxed and ready last year, then they had to have it sit patiently till the planned release date).

Yup, pretty much.
The shortest amount of time they allow is almost 6 months between the finished project and it's release; and at that stage, it is simply to allow the 'eavy metal crew a few months to paint the master-work models to display at Warhammer World.
At that point, all molds are finished and producing copies; the rulebook is done and being printed.
These runs will be small order mass-productions; to make sure that everything can hold up to being mass-produced.
Then it's slowely building stock for a few months, then either a special preview (like GamesDay) or the advanced order a month before release.

For somethings they'll do this almost a year and a half before actual release.

[MarshalAdamar]

Fair point but i think from a sales point of view they like releasing Marine codexs so much because not only do they sell all the new models specific for that codex but a load of Codex Marine stuff too like Whirlwinds, Land Raiders ect.

I do feel for Dark Angels and Black Templar players though, while not needing much in the way of updated models seeing your codex brothers get better gear, more rules ect is a bit harsh. I would love to see a Dark Angels codex! I want to start Dark Angels again!

That said, i also feel for all the Necron, Tau ect players out there. No army should be using a book from 2 editions ago.

Too true! As for the BT needing some love I would agree, but for now I will revel in the fact that the BT can still take "blessed Hull" for our land raiders!! So bring on the DE for a righteous beating

[synack]

Maybe the new Shrouding will be something like the DE upgrade for their vehicles, which simply remove X amount of inches from the enemy's shooting.

[Freefall945]

Without trying to sound too greedy, is there any other news as to what will receive the plastic treatment?


There's been mumbling about plastic aspect warriors. Man, I hope they're getting the hot-rod treatment.

[DarkLink]

I see no reason why everything but special characters and other single model stuff would be plastic. GW is wisely moving away from metal for as much stuff as they can.


There's been mumbling about plastic aspect warriors. Man, I hope they're getting the hot-rod treatment.

That might just be the new aspect warriors they just announced, so I'm not sure if I'd get my hopes up too much

[heartbitt]

I see no reason why everything but special characters and other single model stuff would be plastic. GW is wisely moving away from metal for as much stuff as they can.
Yes, that is path laid down in front.,...
One of the last conversation I have about this topic with the studio people was that real issue it just production costs/mold stress. It's no more quality, detailing or raw material viscosity issue, nowadays with the new engineered injection systems (AoBR was the testbed, but without stressing, and SH was the first top-notch test, and you can see the DE minis) you can get plastic detailing same as metal, althought some studio guys after 20 years, of metal/plastic dichotomy still thinks than you can do things in metal that cannnot be do it in plastic, ;-P ,the real "reasoning" is... Plastic raw are cheaper, molds can be stressed very hard, but those molds are ultra-high priced, so if the sales will be around/more than 1 million copies, it will be in plastic, no matter what. Metal is totally otherwise, molds are cheaper, raw material are expensive, and the stressing mold threshold is low, so if less than million (thousands), it goes in metal.

So individual/specials/collectors characters is hard to be prospect in plastic. All the big sales (basic units, vehicles, etc...) will be plastics.

[oiad]

It's definitely the sensible way to go about it. I guess a more specific question would have been what specific units do you feel will make the cut? Most likely PAGK (or AAGK if some of the hearsay is to be believed), TAGK, and IST's. I know the idea of jetbikes/bikers has been shot down by rumourmongers and some suggest jetpacks are in...

...not a big fan of the idea but I'm willing to hold out until I see the models and read the new fluff.

[DarkLink]

We can't really tell until we see the new rules. The GK, GKT and IST kits are probably pretty likely, but we don't know what other units are in the codex.

It's also entierly possible that a lot of the other units are just variations of those three kits. GKs could be AAGKs, purgation squads, teleport assault squads, etc, and just have a bunch of wargear options crammed into the box.

[fuzzbuket]

i wouldnt be suprised too see a GK box, A GK termi box and a specialist box ( box with 5 GK and parts for fast attack and heavy as well as more options)

[oiad]

Latest rounds from Warseer, for those who haven't read it already:

I'm back, recovered from my jellyfish stings, and with some new rumors. These come from a new source for me, but my regular sources did not call bs. So as always, nothing is set in stone...I'm recounting exactly as I was told, so if it doesn't make sense to you, it didn't to me either. I will come out and say some of this directly conflicts other information I have, but I have my reasons to share

So this actually addresses much of the inquisition in gk questions:

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkerie as dt
Inq lord retinue looks more like ig command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have ig conscripts...like an ig platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry
chimeras or valks as dt only, and only ig
Valk only dt, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as ig, but not variants (Ed: ???)
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If gw did this, only the hq really separates it much from ig, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)

Cheers

Edit: penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask.

[Drew da Destroya]

Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost

Demonhosts look to be out

Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike

Not that I play Inq or Grey Knights, but if those are true, then that's pretty disappointing.

[Melissia]

Yeah, a lot of the "Inquisition" stuff appears to be a bunch of lameass copy-pasting from C:IG.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, a lot of the "Inquisition" stuff appears to be a bunch of lameass copy-pasting from C:IG.

And to think that some people complain that they aren't going to focus enough on the Inquisition. There isn't much of a battlefield force to focus on, other than the actual ordos militant.

[fuzzbuket]

those rumors make me sad:

fuzz's wishlist:
more GK options (thunderfire mod ^_^)
mor radical options, LOTS more
vultures and valks
leave the aasains alone.

END OF.

sadly this looks like:

hi my name is _______

sadly we wont have ALLIES anymore so ill give you some crappy random IG stuff and make it customisble so a fluffy army is cheesy! oh and ill take out radicals they confule people.


sits down for some milk cookies and human souls.

CODEX: NERFED coming to you at a delayed time for too much monies !--------------------for want of double posting----------------------------------------------------

if the dex is a stickmonkey rumors i shall find those pure in heat or maybe with some shiny armour and make a homebrew !

[DarkLink]

more GK options (thunderfire mod ^_^)

Oh, you'll get lots of this.

Well, maybe not thunderfire cannons specifically, but lots more GK options.



mor radical options, LOTS more


Yeah... you might want to go and buy Dark Heresy. That's the game for that sort of stuff.

The real problem with the Inquisition in the codex is that aside from the Assassins and the Inquisitor himself (and retinue), all the actual military forces are Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, and Imperial Guard. And so those are the units that get covered in the scale of 40k. All the Inquisitorial options you really like just fit better in Dark Heresy.

[fuzzbuket]

maybe its just me but if i was writing the new dex id make the following NEW inq units and change the fluff:


more background on ISTs including about thier rergiments and specilised units

fanatical mobs

preachers and more retinue options (cortez's retinue is 300+ so an army shouldnt be hard
more on imperail saints

units

IST general hero (aka supah guardsman with power sword)
ISt hvy weapon teams (*PSYCANNONS :D* flamethrowers)
execution squads
IST units
vulture gunships
vendettas
valkires
rhino
chimera
retributor (tank)
retinue squad
inquisitor
inquisitor lord
preacher
daemon host
acoylte
fanatical mob
orbital strike
radical inq
radical acolyte (which function as in the fluff: mini inqs with bodyguards doing the masters dirty work)
stromtrooper squads with 'safe' mutations
land raiders.
knight titan!
and thats just the inquisitors !

sadly C.S.goto is the codex author and there will be less units than the current dex!

/rant over/

-fuzz

[DarkLink]

Found this:


Originally Posted by Stickmonkey
From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:

Including SCs, not including variant units ex. exterminator/demolished

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries

Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.

If true, then you've got a lot of gaps to fill.

Edit: dt= dedicated transports

[Duke]

From war seer: (sorry if double post but I didn't see it anywhere)

Well so far so good:
DH "sketchy" codex structure based on rumours so far:
HQ:
- GK GMaster
- GK chaplain
- Inq. lord (makes IST troops)
Elites:
- GK Dread
- Assassin
- Death cult assassins unit (cool!)
- GK termies
- IST
Troops:
- GK (PA/AA)
- conscripts
- penal legion
Fast:
- Storm Raven
- Hellhound
- ? GK teleportation squad ?
Heavy:
- Deathstrike launcher
- ? Purgation Squad ?
- ? GK walker ?
GK DTransports:
- Land raiders, rhino, RBacks, DPods (why take teleportation squad?)
IG DTransports:
- Chimera, Valk


Also it seems a lot of people are thinking that the release will be feb 2012

Duke

[DarkLink]

Yeah, StickMonkey's post I linked was actually directly in response to that list you posted, Duke.

Incidentally, I don't know where that list you posted got the idea that there are rumors about drop pods. Or Razorbacks, for that matter. I would presume that ISTs would keep their Rhino option, but we haven't actually heard anything about that.

Aside from that, though, it is a good representation of what we've heard about so far.

[Galadren]

Sounds good to me. I have ideas for a GK/IST Air Cav list using only Stormravens and Valks for vehicles.

[Melissia]

As far as razorbacks go, I had heard something a while back about a psycannon razorback, but I have no clue if anything came of it or if it was just a rumor.

[oiad]

Aside rom the Forge World upgrade (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Daemonhunters_/PSYCANNON-UPGRADE.html) that was released a while back I haven't heard of anything similar to that. I'd be slightly shocked to see those specialised Grey Knight weapons being left off as vehicle options this time around though. If they do include them this time then surely we'll see something new to go with it.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, as far as I can remember, the only set of rumors that really dealt with dedicated transports was that one guy who turned out to be lying about everything.

I wouldn't be surprised if ISTs got razorbacks, I just don't remember hearing anything about them.

[Duke]

I have a feeling that grey knights will have the regular transport options... As a matter of fact I could see their transport options being very similar to blood angels: I.e. Dedicated land raiders, rhinos, razorbacks, drop pods, and a storm raven in the heavy slot.

I also think that the psycannon will have a presence in those transports...I would personally love to see a psycannon razorback!

In other news, I am still thinking that the gk normal guys will be in artificer armor. Has anyone heard anything more about that?

Duke

[DarkLink]

I'd like Razorbacks for ISTs. Not so much for GKs.

I think it would me much more thematic if the GK half of the army used Storm Ravens, Teleportation and Land Raiders exclusively. Let the ISTs have their inferior Rhinos and Chimeras.

Plus, it would actually work fairly well. You're not going to have a lot of separate GK units, so it's not like you need to buy a half dozen transports for them. A SR/LR or two would be pretty sufficient for the GKs, depending on how large a game you're playing.

[Galadren]

I'm thinking GK will be a fun list, personally. Three Stormravens loaded with GK's in PA, which will be expensive, then three Valkyries loaded with IST's (and an Inquisitor Lord, of course, so they're troops). Expensive, but I coul have some fun with six flying transports.

[synack]

Only 4 DTs and SM said that the Valk will be one and Chimeras another, both of which will be for ISTs. So we can assume the other 2 will be rhinos and razorbacks. I can't see drop pods being in when GK's can teleport into battle. I'd like to be wrong in that either there are 5 DTs or I've got something wrong, but a LR DT for the GK's would be nice.

[DarkLink]

So we can assume the other 2 will be rhinos and razorbacks.

Not necessarily. Remember how BA only get Land Raiders as Dedicated Transports? And then there's the Storm Raven.

So we have four contenders for those two DT slots.

[Duke]

I personally would love to see GK teleport attack squads with heroic intervention, but the ability to use it with IC's... That would be great stuff.

Duke

[oiad]

Hmm, doesn't Heroic Intervention represent jump infantry 'swooping in' for the kill? I would sure like to see a similar ability implemented though.

There must be some shift in the fluff in this new codex. While it's always great to have options such as jump-packs and drop pods available, the Grey Knights' prevalence to Deep Striking would have been a much more interesting subject to follow up on and would help distance them from other chapters. Ditching some of those things in order to get special Deep Strike rules; e.g. any GK infantry (up to a certain amount) could be put into reserve and they'd have something to assist, along the lines of a 'Descent of Angels', would be an interesting approach. Just a rough example, before anyone gets ahead of themselves.

[DarkLink]

Incidentally, StickMonkey mentioned that he doesn't know when exactly the GK 'dex will be out (he suspected March), because he'd been getting rumors about another codex he wasn't allowed to talk about. Considering that I don't think he has said anything about Sisters, but other sources have, they might be what he's referring to. Or GW might be slipping something under the radar.

As long as they don't bump back my Grey Knights for whatever codex it is, I'm fine. And if it turns out to be either Sisters or Eldar (the two other 40k armies I have), then that would be extra cool.


Hmm, doesn't Heroic Intervention represent jump infantry 'swooping in' for the kill? I would sure like to see a similar ability implemented though.

I'm pretty sure that Heroic Intervention represents the ability to assault after deepstriking:p. The fluff's just unimportant details. Vanguard are really good at landing right in the fight, GKs are really good at teleporting right into the midst of their enemies.

The relevant part is that they get to assault after deepstriking.



There must be some shift in the fluff in this new codex. While it's always great to have options such as jump-packs and drop pods available, the Grey Knights' prevalence to Deep Striking would have been a much more interesting subject to follow up on and would help distance them from other chapters.

There's not really anything beyond pure speculation that GKs will have jump packs and drop pods.

GW had, aparently, considered giving GKs jetbikes. Which would have been awesome. But it sounds like that didn't make it into the final codex.

[DrBored]

I saw some chatter in this topic about GW upping the prices for things just because they're Grey Knights.

Lemme put it this way... the prices are going to remain reasonable. A squad of 10 plastic GK's will cost about the same as 10 plastic Chaos Marines or a Tac squad. GW has no reason to up the price just because they're Grey Knights, because they don't have to produce as many to fill out an army list. If GW increased the prices of these things, they'd cannibalize their own GK market.

That said, I'm glad to see an army as elite as this. Most strategies dealing with the GK's will be simple volume of fire. If you can kill all their troops, then they can't take objectives, so you win.

I'm not too worried about any of the 'good against daemons' stuff. I think most of it is just fluff related, and just bumps the costs of the models up a little bit.

I'm mostly sad about them taking out allies. A friend of mine was making a Black Templar list featuring Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle and a little IG all as an allied force using DH, WH, and BT Codexes. If allies are taken out, that awesome army will probably never see the light of day.

[oiad]

Something tells me with the influx of rumours regarding IG units in the DH codex that their maybe room for a few vanilla marine options too, to make up for the loss of allies. I don't mind if they steer away from it. Each codex should be self-contained, independant of need from other codieces to thrive. Besides, there's always Apocaylpse games.

I'm more worried about any stronger focus on anti-daemon rules. It's much more effective to target characteristics that are prevalent to daemons than to target daemons themselves e.g. anti invulnerable save wargear/abilities, ignoring EW by 'causing D3 wounds' instead, etc. If they have rules that target daemons themselves then who's to stop a different author from re-writing the next daemon codex in a way that renders these new DH/GK rules ineffective again. That and it's just not fair to either force involved if there is a singular force that is highly prejudice towards another but pretty 'meh' against others when every other army works well without such bias. It's much better for gaming mechanics if they're all effective against each other, regardless of the fluff involved.

[synack]

Not necessarily. Remember how BA only get Land Raiders as Dedicated Transports? And then there's the Storm Raven.

So we have four contenders for those two DT slots.

I don't see the storm raven as a contentder. It's not a DT in the BA codex and it's been said/rumoured that it's going to be FA in the GK codex. The landraider yes, so if we see landraiders as DT's, I don't think we'll see razorbacks.

[Melissia]

Something tells me with the influx of rumours regarding IG units in the DH codex that their maybe room for a few vanilla marine options too, to make up for the loss of allies.

I hope not. Why the **** would I want normal Marines when I could have PAGK?

[MVBrandt]

If they do it right, and I suspect they have done it right, the PAGK and TAGK are going to be exceptionally dififcult to kill and hard hitting, but exceptionally expensive. While "pure" grey knight armies will no doubt be buildable from the dex, their competitiveness will be a point of contention - having middling cost "nilla marine" choices (Grey Knight Initiates or something, or just deathwatchy nilla rines/rine vets), and more importantly having low cost PDF guard choices are what's going to keep it in the realm of functionality.

Frankly, I hope for this - GK would have to only cost in the 20-25 point range each to be competitive, and have appropriate inclusion of melta style weaponry, anti-tank in general, etc., at which point they'd hardly be specially equipped hyperhuman awesome-0 marines, and would just wind up being ... well, kinda like they are now, but brought into competitive line. YAWN.

Gimme super soldiers or gimme death, and having super soldiers means requiring cheap and middling cost auxiliaries in the dex to field alongside them ... or relegates them to the death valley of noncompetitiveness they currently reside in.

[oiad]

I hope not. Why the **** would I want normal Marines when I could have PAGK?
I'd hope so too. But then these are the kind of designers who apparently feel obliged to put in several variants of similar fodder units in and come up with dorky ideas such as Grey Knight walkers. I wouldn't put it pass them. :rolleyes:

[DarkLink]

I'd hope so too. But then these are the kind of designers who apparently feel obliged to put in several variants of similar fodder units in and come up with dorky ideas such as Grey Knight walkers. I wouldn't put it pass them. :rolleyes:

The walker could be cool, we'll see. Fodder units, though? Not so much. The whole point of the GKs is that they're the most elite army in the game. By definition they shouldn't have fodder units.

[MVBrandt]

If they've done it correctly (big if), the "fodder" units are PDF's that the GK have arrived to rescue, not true members of the Inquisition. By rescue I mean "kill the things they're struggling with, then kill them."

Fluff is imagination, and imagination is whatever you require to feel comfy with something - game balance, on the other hand, is entirely outside the reach of imagination. Making Grey Knights super-elite is pretty important, we might all agree ... but to do so, their points costs will go through the roof, and without "cheap" stuff to supplement the army with and provide unit durability and fire spread / redundancy, you're going to have another GK army that's super elite and super bad. HOPE for good fodder units, or all the fluffiness in the world won't save the new dex from mediocrity.

[oiad]

My problem is not with cheap units being in the codex. ISTs have long helped DH players get more bodies on the board and I've always been happy with their inclusion. It's just this desire to pile multiple units in to a codex that essentially do the same job as each other, the slightest of variations aside. Having both Conscripts and Penal Legions for example. While anyone can crank out fluffy reasons why they'll be found on the battlefield it's hardly efficient mechanics. From a design point-of-view, especially for pure-GK players, it all seems like additional padding to make up for a lack of creativity. It also looks like another way of selling alternative IG forces to disenfranchised IG players...


The walker could be cool, we'll see. Fodder units, though? Not so much. The whole point of the GKs is that they're the most elite army in the game. By definition they shouldn't have fodder units.True, I shouldn't pre-judge. It's just seems that any conclusions drawn as to why they are included come back to the designers saying, "man that would be cool and the kids will love it too!"

[Duke]

@mvb: I think you have some points, my feelings are that grey knights will be stupid elite (2+, power weapons, st 6) and then we will have cheap "filler," units like IG.

I see an army being like this:
Tagk in landraider with gk grand master
Assassain
2-3 units of artificer armor grey knights in a psycannon razorback with some kind of melta weapons.
Multiple units of IST (2-3) in chimeras
Misc heavy support.

Duke

[Lucian Kain]

Ive got High hopes for a Knights list,three Stormravens,3 of the proposed new walkers,threeTAGK squads-fleshed out,and three Devastator/purgation type squads,
im not too worried of the competitiveness of the list,although its definitely a concern across the dex.

I hope they get it right Ive waited a long time for this, if the dex is a fail so is 40K and the tabletop hobby for me.

Considering this Ive got a feeling they might even make it a smidge overpowered on account of takeing so long to get thier **** together.- I dought it.

It would be cool if they had an armour upgrade for exclusively GreyKnight armys,+1 AV that worked against/accross the spectrum of dex's.AV13 Stormravens would be nasty

If the proposed walker is somewhere between a terminator and a Dreadnought,ooooh mabe like the realy old tactical dread armour but without the high *** AV(10 or 2d6?) but with,(S5,T5,) it could become very cool.
Now im hopeing they make terminators like that again,they've brought back things like ramming and other old rules ideas would this be too far fetched as GK exclusive TA even with AV10?

Force multiplyers with light restrictions
Give those walkers Punnisher cannons to increase volume of fire, good against Inv. saves and daemon princes
A new bit of hardware has unlimited potential don't **** it up GW

[Defenestratus]

Can someone get a leaked picture of the storm raven already? I swear this thing is a closer-held secret than the nuclear launch codes.

[Bigred]

What I've been told is the GK will be the game's new "Elite" army. While "horde options" are available, even that option (probably the Inquisitorial STs) is said to cap out with a model count of under 100 for the entire force. Pure GKs will be well, well below that.

Sources have talked about army buildouts that were holding thier own on the tabletop with model counts of roughly 20!

Expect lots of new rules to deal with Daemons, and other invulnerable stuff, and few to little infantry anti-vehicle stuff, making things like the StormRaven and vehicles more critical to the army that to the Blood Angels for example (because the BAs) can take plenty of infantry based anti-mech equipment.

Lots of psykers all over the place, and some pretty scary statlines for the super rare stuff like the assassins for example.

Models are said to be off the chart dripping in detail. (more than the BAs)

[Flammenwerfer13]

I hope they dont have ANY IG troops in them. Just a pure Gk army with a maybe an Inquisitor with retinue that is rebalanced can be allied out thats it.

[Bigred]

Allies are out, but I'm sure ISTs are still in. I'm betting very minimal IG support if any other than transport options for the ISTs. The book is supposed to be a complete refocus on the GK after all.

[Melissia]

From Dakka-Dakka, it says that they will have conscripts (from IG) as horde options.

[DarkLink]

Can someone get a leaked picture of the storm raven already? I swear this thing is a closer-held secret than the nuclear launch codes.

Is there a model to leak yet? Sometimes you just have to be patient.

[oiad]

No pictures yet. There has been some hearsay that the SR may arrive with a libby dreadnought as a minor BA wave just before the release. If so then there maybe pictures for it before we receive any hardcore details regarding the DH/GK codex.

As for the use of IG/Conscripts/Penal Legions, I doubt GW are going to refocus the codex title to Grey Knights without making GK's a viable force on there own. Or at least I hope so, despite how difficult it maybe to balance pointswise. As bigred says IG et al are likely be in minimal focus. Thrown in to keep IG lovers happy.

Something that caught my attention was how Stickmonkey's latest post alluded to the notion of a HQ based-system: "Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given."
I feel he maybe hinting at a system where certain armies are unlocked by different HQ models, i.e. Grey Knights need a Grand Master, IG need an Inquisitor. If correct/true, it may be quite expensive to unlock both armies but not impossible.

[Bigred]

I have been hearing that almost all of the last Stickmonkey IG-related rumors for the GK book are incorrect and the IG elements are much more constrained.

[DarkLink]

I have been hearing that almost all of the last Stickmonkey IG-related rumors for the GK book are incorrect and the IG elements are much more constrained.

Wouldn't be too surprised. StickMonkey was a little hesitant with his IG rumors, as apparently they came from a new, unconfirmed source.

[DarkLink]

Jimbo1701 on warseer compiled a nice summary of recent rumors here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281064

[Melissia]

One more confirmation that there will be no combined inquisition/sisters/grey knight/deathwatch codex, because even GW can see the idea is dumb :P

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I noticed there were still a few people clinging to that idea.

[Bigred]

Latest roundup from Warseer (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281064)


Glossary:
SoB = sisters of battle
GK = grey knights
SM = space marines
Inq = Inquisitions
NFW = nemesis force weapon
PA = power armour
AA = artificer armour
TA = terminator armour
PW = power weapon
FW = force weapon
IST = inquisitorial storm troopers

Release date:

Originally January, now looking more like March.

Organisation/fluff:

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units. (penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask)

Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.

The organization of GKs chapter being fleshed out has opened a number of new "roles"

The relation of Ordos Malleus to the Inquisition is also expanded upon

Officio Assassinorum also has an interesting fluff piece...albeit very short

To respond to the wishlisting of justicars being treated similar to Wolf guard, don't place bets on that.
It was apparent from my last contact Inq forces were still present...including storm troopers...but there are other new units there as well. From everything I've been told/heard the focus has definately shifted to GK. Not as many options for Inq, Assassins combined to a single unit with wargear to dictate functional role, Inq retinue changes that will effectively kill the tried and true power tactic of shooting everything in sight as it Deep Strikes in. The utter removal of use of allies from other codex books, or inclusion of units from this book with other armies (Self contained...no surprises there.) Overall I always felt the prior incarnation was inquisition with a dash of GK. The feel I have now is reverse of that...but there will still be very effective Inq builds to be had...so far as I know.


Special rules:

Combat squads were an option I know was playtested.

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psykers beware.

Not a lot of Mechanised. But quick to deploy.

Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons. 'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

'Shrouding' basically unchanged...also known as nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor?)

'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into difficult terrain.

'Aegis' enemy Psykers within 12" take psychic tests with +1d6

Chaos icons work to oppose GK units teleport ability. A unit with a chaos icon will block the ability of GK to teleport into battle within the icons area of influence. I'm hearing that there may also be other items that hinder this deployment tactic from other armies as well.


Wargear:

The new codex has new options (weapons, equipment, etc.) that will be included in those box sets.

Also, I understand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.

Yes, beyond psycannon and incinerator, there are 2 other special gk weapons I know were ptd...but these I can't go into detail on at this time. I'll say one had pretty poor response from the playtest group, but there could be some nice tactics developed to make it effective if it did move forward.

Corrected Psycannon profile:
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invulnerable saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invulnerable saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invulnerable or cover saves.

NFWs: NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same. I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from. From what I know right now NFW will be +2S across the board as now, but PAGKs will all count as PW, and TAGKs will all count as FW. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted NFW...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invulnerable, or cover saves. Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works with Storm Shield. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)

The rumor I had earlier about "Annointed armor" got some additional legs with a small twist. Looks like this could be granted to a unit containing a Gk chaplain. Much like other chaplains elsewhere grant re-rolls on charges, the gk chaplains are rumored to grant counter attack and re-rolls of armor saves...caveat being the reroll is only 1st round of cc... It's a complex confirmation, and taken alone I'd pour salt on it, but given I've heard of the anointed armor prior and recent codexes have some charge related chaplain ability...I thought I'd go ahead and post it. It's definitely taking more realistic tones...

New options for Dreadnaughts including librarian. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including Daemons of Chaos armies, pinning in other armies.


Army list:

Do not hold too tightly to past structures and expectations.

As far as TAGK as troops? I havent seen anything indicating this. However, I do recall a discussion of TAGK filling roles in two slots though, possible Heavy and Elite.
The GK jet bike sketches did not look at all like sammaels...no plasma gun. Knights on them has NFW in lance style. Very bullet bike rider stance...ie leaning forward over bike, not upright like marine bikes. Had the swept front faring, but not wing motifs. Looked like twin linked storm bolters under slung beneath handles. Very aggressive looking. Too bad they got axed.

according to a tiny bit I got overnight, GK TAs will have access to the standard marine upgrades, plus NFW, incinerators, psycannons, etc., of course. But he is saying the cyclone launcher for them will be arm mounted like their Storm Bolters. I'm very skeptical of this, but this source is close enough to know, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkyrie as dedicated transport
Inq lord retinue looks more like imperial guard command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have imperial guard conscripts...like an imperial guard platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than imperial guard codex entry
chimeras or valkyries as dt only, and only imperial guard
Valkyries only dedicated transport, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as imperial guard, but not variants
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as imperial guard...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If GW did this, only the hq really separates it much from imperial guard, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)
From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:

Including Special Characters, not including variant units eg. exterminator/demolisher

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries

Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.


Playtesting:

GK 2000pt AL from Playtest:

HQ
Grand Master with Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dreadought - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ????? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies

The Playtest list posted was played against 2000 points of Orks including nobs, mek with kuston force field, lots of boys in trukks, a BattleWagon and dread mob. It was Capture & Control with Dawn of War.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in Razorback came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The StormRaven took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs


Models:

The box sets should all be plastic.

The GK models are ornate.

The biggest issue you'll find with the TAs is scale. The new plastics are in scale with the other TA models. The metals are old scale sized. Its a noticable difference.

But even the AA marines look "bigger", though not to such a great extent, to me.

Once painted, the new models have better depth of detail IMO. And more small details not present in the metals. This is in both TA and AA. The best examples to look at are the Blood Angel plastics to understand how much detail can be crammed onto a figure, but still look good.

Plastics:

Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ??? (note, other sources say that a BA second wave containing storm raven and librarian/furioso dread are slated for a separate January release) I've had personal conversations with direct individuals, which would surprise me if the SR model was not a keystone of this release. I've personally seen a few mockups of the SR from the modelling teams, many more from the art team. I know what the final selected design is. It looks better than I imagined.

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner? Supposed options for all will be on sprue. Plus NFW will NOT all be halberds. But the exact nature of them was not revealed to me. If this pans out we could see a lot of weapon options in the sprue...a lot more than would be used. Assault Cannon, PsyCannon, Incinerator, SS, TH, NFWs, Cyclone launchers...seems like a lot to jam in, but if we look at SW and BA boxes those were loaded with bits. The GK TA sprues:

5 legs
6 torsos
8 heads
6 nfw
5 SB
unknown # Special Weapons (includeing SS), but if above holds it could be 6+
GK TA back banner
6-8 shoulder shields
12 shoulder pads
~12 upgrade bits (books, scrolls, crux terminus, etc.)
8 arm sets (sounds like the arms have no hands, similar to sanguinary guard)
4 hands (right/left?)
more?

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA. (see above) I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.

Blisters:

New Stern

New Chaplain?

Justicar upgrade character

Paladin upgrade character

Inquisition character

2 other blisters unknown contents

Other:

Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.

I've heard two things in relation to this list:
1) lots of those IG codex unit options are now gone
2) the army is very elite and has several viable build options with very low modelcounts (20-30 models)

[DarkLink]

Hah, ninja'd you with a link a few posts above your summary:p



1) lots of those IG codex unit options are now gone

Sweet



2) the army is very elite and has several viable build options with very low modelcounts (20-30 models)

Even better.

I'm thinking that GKs will end up like Nob biker armies, with very few extremely hard models. Hopefully unlike nob bikers, though, they won't rely on wound allocation shenanigans to be good. And, of course, hopefully they'll be more flexible, since they'll have a much wider variety of units than a nob biker army would.

[Melissia]

I have a bet going on with a friend of mine that someone will claim that I can't play my Sisters army because I have to buy the new Daemonhunters/Grey Knights codex because obviously it must be a combined codex, after all that's what all the ████ing idiots on the internet are saying.

Regardless, glad to see they're not going to go overboard with Imperial Guard units.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Same here, i have a bet with a mate about the codex combined, if im right (SoB with there own codex) he owes me a box set of any new units when it comes out.
If he wins i owe him something for his DA/BA army...stupid SM's :P

[Duke]

So much great stuff I just don't know what to say except, yippee! I seriously can't wait for this army to come out... I have loved the idea of gk for so long and would have played them with bad rules if there were more than 5 models in the range...looks like I won't be disappointed this time around.

I actually think that I am going to convert this army up to be a "custodes" army during the heresy with the gk grand master being the emperor... ::nerd drool::

Duke

[Bigred]

Yeah, I've just heard even more from trusted sources that makes me think *very little* IG in this codex at all.

Its looking like GKs and Inqs, with a handful of Imperial Operatives thrown in for flavor. Look for more GK vehicles to fill in the FOC slots vacated by all the Allied SM/IG options.

Melissia, your Sororitas are still safe as the game's only holdouts with allies and their old codex for a while longer.

[oiad]

Yeah and judging from the rumours of an impending release of a Sororitas next year that crutch will be blasted away to. I'll miss the frivolous/fun GK alliances but the girls don't really need the helping hand either.

[Melissia]

You know what will be amusing?

That short time during which Sisters can ally with the new Grey Knights codex :P

Anyway, I don't really use allies, so that's not the issue for me...

[Duke]

I'm really happy to hear that ig will be more of a walk on appearance as opposed to a main character. I never saw the point of "IG PLUS," that was the original gk idea.

Duke

[Duncndisorderly]

As someone who is looking to start a new force next year I',m going to be watching the GK with interest. I suspect I wont be the only one.

[Defenestratus]

The next person who claims to have "seen the stormraven" or... "seen renderings of the stormraven" or saw "box art of the stormraven" without providing at least a blurricam cell phone pic is going to have dead trout delivered to them.

I've started a collection in my closet. Its getting quite smelly in here.

[Bigred]

Here are a handful of big bombshells we've heard about. We will have to see how they pan out.

ISTs are said to be out. You can still use the models to represent some of the fighting members of an Inquisitor's retinue (which apparently have all types of options now)

Assassins are single FOC slots and you can field multiple now (which is interesting as this was forshadowed through the formal Imperial sanctioning of assassin teams in some of the latest Black Library novels).

GK Termys as troops.

So it looks like a very Grey Knight book with Inquisitors (and a variety of retinue options), Imperial Operatives, many GK vehicles (the standard SM types), Storm Ravens, etc. This is NOT going to be an "IG-lite" codex.

[oiad]

BigRed, where do you hear this stuff? Aside from saying ISTs are gone it makes a grown man like me laugh with joy to hear such possibilities being considered:

Multiple Assassin allowance :)
A large(r?) variety of retinue options with Inquisitors :)
Abolishing silly 'IG-lite' concepts. :)
GKTs as troops :D
Nicccccee.

[DarkLink]

The next person who claims to have "seen the stormraven" or... "seen renderings of the stormraven" or saw "box art of the stormraven" without providing at least a blurricam cell phone pic is going to have dead trout delivered to them.

I've started a collection in my closet. Its getting quite smelly in here.

Remember, these people might not have access to the SR in order to get a picture. If they're shown a screenshot or something but not allowed to keep it or take a picture (which is very likely), then how are they supposed to satisfy your impatience?

[Brass Scorpion]

I like hearing this sudden flood of new information about Grey Knights and comments about the information on Grey Knights, especially in a Grey Knights thread. ;) The Skaven are getting at least a couple serious new kits in January, so GK must surely be a month or two later at the earliest. The flood of new rumors on them does seem to support that short a time frame for release.

[Galadren]

Eh, I dislike hearing IST's as gone. All the other IG stuff can stay gone, but I thought IST's alone were fine as a troop option as it's extremely common to see Inquisitor's taking along squads of them.

Not to mention I already had a great little backstory for my own little fluff IST regiment. >_>

[Duke]

Tagk troops? Gk player "my troops have force weapons, how about you?" ... Ork player "ummm, we'z gots some sticks!" (and yes, all ork players talk like orks)

Duke

[Defenestratus]

Remember, these people might not have access to the SR in order to get a picture. If they're shown a screenshot or something but not allowed to keep it or take a picture (which is very likely), then how are they supposed to satisfy your impatience?



http://www.dynaspy.com/images/covert-tie-camera-hidden-dvr.jpg

Really. I'd do it for you.

[Porty1119]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

You, sir, are worthy of the EPIC award of the highest EPIC caliber.

[DarkLink]

I would find the removal of ISTs a little odd, but I wouldnt miss them at all. They were only there because of the current desparate need for melta and scoring units.


http://www.dynaspy.com/images/covert-tie-camera-hidden-dvr.jpg

Really. I'd do it for you.

Heh, that's pretty cool. Go corporate espionage!

[Spectre]

Gotta say, no ISTs is not only odd, but very stupid imho. This combined with the rumors of no Codex:Inquisition makes all stormtrooper armies completely worthless. Sure, there's always the veterans with grenadier, but with grenadiers being so overpriced, they are delegated to fun armies. *sigh* What's wrong with stormtroopers and Inquisition entries(not many, but some) in addition to the multitude of Grey Knight entries?

[DarkLink]

Gotta say, no ISTs is not only odd, but very stupid imho.

While I don't care, there are enough people with mixed GK/I armies that I have to agree.

Of course, GW might be trying to force them to start Guard armies...:rolleyes:



This combined with the rumors of no Codex:Inquisition makes all stormtrooper armies completely worthless.

There were never any actual rumors of a C: Inquisition in the first place, just pure speculation. No reliable source of rumors has ever backed that speculation, and several were firmly against it. It's always been two separate codices. The only question was what exactly would happen with the Inquisition. Would they still have a place in the GK and Sisters codices, or would they get their own, third codex/expansion.



What's wrong with stormtroopers and Inquisition entries(not many, but some) in addition to the multitude of Grey Knight entries?

That's what I would have expected. Update and streamline the current Inqusition rules, and expand the GKs to fill up the codex. You'd end up with Inquisitor/Retinue, Assassins and ISTs, and a whole bunch of GKs.

[Spectre]

While I don't care, there are enough people with mixed GK/I armies that I have to agree.

Of course, GW might be trying to force them to start Guard armies...:rolleyes:

There were never any actual rumors of a C: Inquisition in the first place, just pure speculation...
Hmm, I guess I just took that codex inquisition speculation as truth. Still, the Storm Troopers in the Guard Codex, while not horrible, are left in the dust by much better and cost effective choices(Grenadier Veterans for example, which get 3 special weapons and are still cheaper then a Storm Trooper Squad).

And the Grenadiers Doctrine is too expensive to be useful as well, thus making a DH player with a IST army only able to use their miniatures in either a cost ineffective fluff list(not bad, but not good either) or as overly dressed 5+ vets with wires and power packs connected to their standard lasgun in a Guard army they may not have wanted to play.

Well, at least imho, I will believe nothing until Games Workshop comes out and declares, " We've decided that the Inquisition is stupid, so we retconned them out of the universe." At which point I will melt down my metal minis, make them into bullets, and go on a murderous rampage through their corporate office.:rolleyes:

[Melissia]

Right, the combined inqusition idea, that idea to combine four widely varying armies into one codex was one of the dumbest, most poorly thought out ideas ever produced in 40k and the people who thought of it should be ashamed of themselves to the point of having to see a psychologist about clinical depression and promptly get slapped by the psychologist for their trouble.

GW went so far as to call the idea fanwank, which frankly I find insulting because I'm a huge fan and I basically just insulted everyone who ever thought the idea was anywhere remotely near good :P

[Spectre]

Right, the combined inqusition idea, that idea to combine four widely varying armies into one codex was one of the dumbest, most poorly thought out ideas ever produced in 40k and the people who thought of it should be ashamed of themselves to the point of having to see a psychologist about clinical depression and promptly get slapped by the psychologist for their trouble.

GW went so far as to call the idea fanwank, which frankly I find insulting because I'm a huge fan and I basically just insulted everyone who ever thought the idea was anywhere remotely near good :P

I was thinking Inquisition as its own faction(which after thinking about it for a while, makes no sense since they use their militant forces(GK, SoB, DW) to fight their enemies), which someone was talking about since it appears that the Inq is getting almost no love in the GK or the SoB codex(which apparently will focus more on the Ecceliarchy).

Btw, I completely agree with the above quote, since that is probably the stupidest idea to ever have surfaced in the mind of a person even remotely familiar with 40k.:rolleyes:

[Bigred]

Nothing expicitly new, but continued chatter coming in of:

-No IG/ allied marines at all
-No ISTs (as standalone units)
-Many, Many, Many retinue options for Inquisitors, encapsulating several of the now removed units from the old codex
-Multiple Imperial Assassins are allowed

Basically this is a GK codex with Inquisitors, and a teensy amount of other elite units. No Sororitas, or IG/SM allies in this one.

[isotope99]

What does anyone think the blood angels release in february means for the timetable?

1) Out in March following the storm raven (but means still no new fantasy codex) :o
2) Pushed back until at least april :(

[gcsmith]

with the feb 40k release and recent 40k releases, I reckon that march/april/may time being fantasy. Especially if 40k flyers is true.

[Bigred]

I dont know. Id would be pretty risky for them to push out a 40k codex past march. Then you are talking about 5+ month gap for codices for the company's moneymaking system.

40K and Marines in particular sell - Fantasy, not nearly so much...

[isotope99]

I dont know. Id would be pretty risky for them to push out a 40k codex past march. Then you are talking about 5+ month gap for codices for the company's moneymaking system.

40K and Marines in particular sell - Fantasy, not nearly so much...

That's true, and it would mean dark eldar are the only 40k codex in a year since blood angels, which I think were in April.

My dark Eldar should be mostly done by the new year so I want to start my new heresy thousand sons using the grey knights.

[DarkLink]

It's not like they never ever release anything at the same time as a new codex

[Force21]

Nothing expicitly new, but continued chatter coming in of:

-No IG/ allied marines at all
-No ISTs (as standalone units)
-Many, Many, Many retinue options for Inquisitors, encapsulating several of the now removed units from the old codex
-Multiple Imperial Assassins are allowed

Basically this is a GK codex with Inquisitors, and a teensy amount of other elite units. No Sororitas, or IG/SM allies in this one.


:confused:

No Stormtroopers?


Well I hope the Inquisitor retinues can make up for it...

& multiple assassins sound a bit odd... or is it like the way it is now that you can have death cults with say a Eversor?

[fuzzbuket]

has anyone head about daemonhosts?the mumbels from the internets suggest there gone but INQS have huge retinues.

now if we go the BA happy shiny route all radicals should not be in the dex.

however if they do a DE and make it a dark siniser dex well :D how about daemonhost retinues??

anyone think they might do that?

[isotope99]

has anyone head about daemonhosts?the mumbels from the internets suggest there gone but INQS have huge retinues.

now if we go the BA happy shiny route all radicals should not be in the dex.

however if they do a DE and make it a dark siniser dex well :D how about daemonhost retinues??

anyone think they might do that?

Radicals don't quite fit with the grey knight fluff, but since GW's recent codexes have been adding lots of new units to make them much larger, I would have thought that they would want to keep as many existing units as they can, which is why I'm sceptical about the no storm trooper rumours.

Credit where its due to GW, whilst they may make existing armies uncompetitive, they do generally try and avoid invalidating them altogether.

[DarkLink]

Radicals don't quite fit with the grey knight fluff, but since GW's recent codexes have been adding lots of new units to make them much larger, I would have thought that they would want to keep as many existing units as they can, which is why I'm sceptical about the no storm trooper rumours.


Well, as you said, Radicals just don't fit. So all those new models are likely Grey Knight ones.

You want lots of Inquisition stuff, people will have to start turning to Dark Heresy. Which is really where the Inquisition side of things belongs anyways. RPGs are perfect for handling the role of the Inquisition. Tabletop games, not so much.

[Duke]

I agree, in everything I have read the inquisition (not including chamber millitants) doesn't do a lot of standing army fighting... They should be kept at squad level actions like space hulk and dark heresy.

Duke

[tastytaste]

Here is the first of the GK leaks from Blood of Kittens


http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/12/01/network-news-grey-knight-leaks-rumors-part-1/ (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/12/01/network-news-grey-knight-leaks-rumors-part-1/)

[isotope99]

Orcs and goblins now officially confirmed for the March release slot which means no sooner than April for the grey knights :(:(:(

[w7west]

I would enjoy seeing orbital bombardments lose their 0-1 so that maybe there would be at least one army that could punish players for making parking lots.

But then again if gw wanted mech guard to be anything close to balanced someone would have said "hey wait a minute" after reading the vehicle point costs.

[Melissia]

Or they'd just make light anti-tank more readily available to all armies-- oh wait they're already doing that.