Targetting IC's in hth

[Denzark]

Chaps and Chapettes.

A situation came up the other night. A bunch of Orks were in hth with my Plague marines. They had a warboss in there. I charged a Defiler and a DP in there, and allocated their attacks to the warboss. Due to the size of the mob, I could only get within 1" (one base width) of him.

My opponent said i couldn't allocate to the boss as they were not in base to base contact - I said the rules state they must be ENGAGED. The definition of engaged is what, within 1" or 2" of a model who is in contact?

So, the question for the rules smiths here - can ICs hide behind a row of models in hth to avoid targetting, or can they only be hit if in base to base, or is my interpetation of ENGAGED correct?

Any references from the uber rules geniuses would be appreciiated.

[Nabterayl]

A model is engaged with an enemy unit if it is (i) in base contact with at least one model in the enemy unit or (ii) is within 2" of a model in its own unit that is in base contact with at least one model in the enemy unit.

You're quite correct that an IC without a retinue (which fights in close combat as if it were its own single-model unit) can be attacked by any model that is engaged with him, and thus, models can attack an IC without a retinue even if they are not in base contact in some circumstances.

Remember that page 35 specifies that you must be within 2" of a model in base contact from your own unit - not within 2" of a friendly model in base contact. Hence, if your daemon prince could only get within 1" of the warboss because there were too many plague marines in the way, the daemon prince would not be engaged with the warboss. Even if the plague marines were engaged, they aren't part of the daemon prince's unit. On the other hand, if plague marine A was in base contact with the warboss, and plague marine B was not but was within 2" of plague marine A, both plague marines A and B would be engaged with the warboss and could allocate their attacks against him (assuming A and B are part of the same plague marine squad).

You can use this tactic to hide ICs behind friendly models, so long as you don't mind losing their attacks. For instance, a warboss attached to a mob of boyz could hide in the middle or at the back of the mob, so that by the time the boyz got stuck in the warboss could not get into base contact with any enemy models (remember that ICs must make reaction and pile-in moves before other models, but an IC in a charging unit does not move in any special order). Because the warboss was not in base contact with any enemy models, he would not be engaged with any enemy units - even if he's within 2" of a boy in base contact, for purposes of assault, that boy is in a separate unit. This would mean that the warboss was not engaged at all, and thus would neither attack nor be attacked that round.

[harrybuttwhisker]

An independent character becomes a seperate unit once the assault has begun thus can only have attacks allocated to them if they are in base contact. It also means the warboss can only fight in the combat if he himself is in base contact.

[DarkLink]

It can be simplified down to this;

1. If you are in base contact with a unit, you may hit that unit.

2. If you are not in base contact, but within 2" of a friendly model that is, you may hit that unit.

[Nabterayl]

It can be simplified down to this;

1. If you are in base contact with a unit, you may hit that unit.

2. If you are not in base contact, but within 2" of a friendly model in your own unit that is, you may hit that unit.
Corrected.

[Nungunz]

The ork player is correct. In assaults, Independent Characters act as a completely separate unit than the one they are joined to.

This means that only units engaged (unless they are engaged with the Warboss, but in base contact with only the boyz) with him may attack him and he may only attack units that he is in base-to-base contact with.


EDIT: Spacey when originally posted. I are a dunce!

[Nabterayl]

This means that only units in base-to-base contact with him may attack him and he may only attack units that he is in base-to-base contact with.

That's not true. Any model that is in base to base contact with the warboss is engaged with the warboss, and any model that is within 2" from one of those models and in the same unit is also engaged with the warboss. There's a diagram under "Independent Characters and Assault" that has a very good illustration of who is engaged with an independent character in assault.

[Nungunz]

Yeah, sorry, my mistake on that. Been a bit spacey today.

In either case, the Defiler couldn't have hit the Warboss (as he wasn't engaged with the Warboss). But you are right, any of the Marines engaged with the warboss could swing at him. Except for marines engaged with the warboss, but in base contact with only the boyz.

My bad.

[Denzark]

Some interesting stuff.

I'm trying to break this down - it does indeed look like he wasn't engaged. However, I believe he SHOULD have been, for the following reasons:

1. BRB P49 - Idy characters and assaults. WHEN THE ATTACKS ARE RESOLVED however, indys cs are treated as a separate single model unit.

This first point means he is only on his own RESOLVING the attacks - ie after the defenders react.

So, back to:

2. BRB P41. Multiple combats. DEFENDERS REACT. 'Its models must be moved into base contact with any of the units they are fighting, not just the enemies that just assaulted them.'

So there has to be a shuffling up of models - the defenders reacting.

That leads me to:

3. BRB P49 - Indy characs & Assaults. When a Unit is reacting to being assaulted or making a pile in move, independent characters that have joined the unit must move before other characters, in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible otherwise they will not be abel to fight. (using their own men as a screnn balh blah is cowardly etc)

So surely the warboss should have reacted before his whole unit in DEFENDERS REACT, to get into btb with the new threat?

Anyway, ALLOCATING attacks is done against ENGAGED units. Indy Cs only get treated as separate single model units when the attacks are RESOLVED (BRBp49) - attack RESOLUTION clearly has to take place AFTER attack ALLOCATION - therefore at the time of allocation they are still part of the main unit and thus fair game if you get within 2" of them to become engaged? Becuase they can't onyl be targetted in base contact, rather only when engaged and this is decided BEFORE they get treated as a separate single model unit.

Hope Nabby and Darklink can come back.

[BuFFo]

Chaps and Chapettes.

A situation came up the other night. A bunch of Orks were in hth with my Plague marines. They had a warboss in there. I charged a Defiler and a DP in there, and allocated their attacks to the warboss. Due to the size of the mob, I could only get within 1" (one base width) of him.

My opponent said i couldn't allocate to the boss as they were not in base to base contact - I said the rules state they must be ENGAGED. The definition of engaged is what, within 1" or 2" of a model who is in contact?

So, the question for the rules smiths here - can ICs hide behind a row of models in hth to avoid targetting, or can they only be hit if in base to base, or is my interpetation of ENGAGED correct?

Any references from the uber rules geniuses would be appreciiated.

You need to be in base to base as both the Orks and the Warboss are two separate units for the purpose of allocating attacks.

He was right.

[DarkLink]

Some interesting stuff.

I'm trying to break this down - it does indeed look like he wasn't engaged. However, I believe he SHOULD have been, for the following reasons:

1. BRB P49 - Idy characters and assaults. WHEN THE ATTACKS ARE RESOLVED however, indys cs are treated as a separate single model unit.

This first point means he is only on his own RESOLVING the attacks - ie after the defenders react.

The 'resolving attacks' starts when the first model starts attacking, and ends when the last model is done attacking. The warboss doesn't engage and disengage based on when he and he alone attacks.

Now, last edition it kinda worked like that. But now, if someone is engaged with another unit at the beginning of combat, they will remain engaged until the end of combat, no matter how many models get killed or anything like that. Unless, of course, the model itself is killed. Then it isn't engaged with anyone cause it's dead:rolleyes:



So, back to:

2. BRB P41. Multiple combats. DEFENDERS REACT. 'Its models must be moved into base contact with any of the units they are fighting, not just the enemies that just assaulted them.'

So there has to be a shuffling up of models - the defenders reacting.

That leads me to:

3. BRB P49 - Indy characs & Assaults. When a Unit is reacting to being assaulted or making a pile in move, independent characters that have joined the unit must move before other characters, in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible otherwise they will not be abel to fight. (using their own men as a screnn balh blah is cowardly etc)

So surely the warboss should have reacted before his whole unit in DEFENDERS REACT, to get into btb with the new threat?

Anyway, ALLOCATING attacks is done against ENGAGED units. Indy Cs only get treated as separate single model units when the attacks are RESOLVED (BRBp49) - attack RESOLUTION clearly has to take place AFTER attack ALLOCATION - therefore at the time of allocation they are still part of the main unit and thus fair game if you get within 2" of them to become engaged? Becuase they can't onyl be targetted in base contact, rather only when engaged and this is decided BEFORE they get treated as a separate single model unit.


Yes, the Warboss would indeed move before the rest of the squad. However, it still must follow the normal movement rules. If the Warboss is too far away to get into base contact, or if there isn't room between friendly models for him to squeeze through, he might not be able to make it.




Basically, here's the sequence;
1. Assault
2. Defenders React
3. Determine who's engaged with whom. IC's now count as separate units.
4. Resolve attacks
5. so on and so forth

[DarkLink]

oh, and thanks Nab for catching the minor but important detail in how models are engaged

[Nabterayl]

Basically, here's the sequence;
1. Assault
2. Defenders React
3. Determine who's engaged with whom. IC's now count as separate units.
4. Resolve attacks
5. so on and so forth

I notice that DarkLink didn't directly address your question about whether an IC is a separate unit before or after attacks are allocated. While you are quite correct that "when the attacks are resolved ... independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit," note the diagram on page 49, which demonstrates the situation of a Warboss (an IC) attached to a unit, and illustrates which models are engaged with him, and thus who can allocate attacks to him. This diagram, and its accompanying explanation, demonstrates that DarkLink's sequence above is correct.

[DarkLink]

See, I can say what I want, and Nab can do the research to confirm it:D

I think I get the better end of that deal. Credit to Nab for not being as lazy as me