The Question of Counts-As

[40kAlex]

I've got a question, but first there's a little background to be explained:

I started a codex marines army about two years ago by buying the Battle Company box set. This gave me a tremendous starting foundation of rhinos, devs, tacticals, and assault marines. From this platform I built up a sizable (3000+ points) marine army. I was happy with it, my sternguard and Ironclads were running about destroying things, and I even occasionally used my Thunderfire cannon.

Then the Space Wolf codex came out.

Being of Norwegian decent myself and always a fan of vikings, I fell in love with both the fluff and the rules. Although SW lacked some of the fun toys (Sternguard especially missed) I enjoyed an army that had awesome heroes, usable devastators and shamanistic superstitions. But what was I to do? Buy a whole new army? Instead I had my marines count as their wolf equivalents and bought what I needed to in order to create unique wolf units.

I now plan to try the same thing with BA, buying/converting sanquinary guard, baal predators, and sanguinary priests, while using my core of tactical and assault marine models.

Meanwhile I endeavor to come up with fluff to explain three organizations of combat doctrine in one chapter (as my codex marines were a homebrew to begin with) which is actually going rather well. I suppose it helps being an english major.

My question to you all is whether you consider this an alright thing to do? All of my friends had little issue with tactical marines as grey hunters or devastators as long fangs, but do you? If I put this army on the table, with its original color scheme and name, would you scoff or start rolling dice as though nothing was amiss?

[DrLove42]

Personally depends on the situation and the paint scheme.

If they're painted as say Ultramarines and you play them as wolves it might bug me a little but i'd still let them be used. Just remember you can take stuff from space wolves and BA (eg no wolves in a storm raven). I've seen a lot of standard marines "counts as" BA just so people can get more stuff into their army.

Apoc is obviously different as you say theres multiple chapters on the field

[BlackKnight15624]

I think it's fine as long as you can justify it to your opponent. Obviously, this is far easier with a homebrew chapter, as definitions of what a Tactical/Grey Hunter/whatever marine can be blurred far easier than with, say, an Ultramarines tactical squad trying to pose as a Grey Hunter. If you're going with a canon chapter, then stick to the codex that's out for them. However, since you're doing your own thing... well, do your own thing! More luck to you.

[DaveLL]

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I would appreciate it if the regular tac squads you were using as a base for everything else (or at least the special units for each codex) looked nicer than is standard for a marine army. Essentially, if you want to regularly reuse one army's models for 3 armies, it would be nice to see that you put in at least 2 armies' worth of painting effort into them. That said, even if they looked terrible, I still wouldn't refuse to play you. *shrug*

[scadugenga]

As long as you were up front about it and clearly showed what model represents what unit choice I'd have no worries.

It's even easier if you aren't using one of the previously established chapters, so you have the freedom to move about. That's pretty much what goatboy does with his "Space Goats" and "Blood Goats" (or whatever it is).

As long as there's decent communication, it's all good.

[40kAlex]

Glad to see the same reaction I've seen on other forums, I was worried that only my friends were willing to let me do this and so my army wouldn't be able to enter a tournament as Wolves or Angels.

I use my own custom scheme, my whole army is painted (rather basically as I don't have any technique, but it is painted), and I always explain anything and everything to my opponent if they don't already know what they are looking at.

I use tactical marines as grey hunters and my assault marines w/o jump packs as BA assault marines and blood claws, while specialists such as sternguard, wolf guard terminators, sanguinary priests, and various HQ options are represented by unique models. I have seperate rune priests and librarian models, though my chaplains to flip between chaplain, reclusiarch, and wolf priest.

Thanks for the input, I hope to enter a few local tournaments with my wolves, though I'll be sure to talk to the TO first to make sure I they don't object to my wolves-without-wolfy-bits wolves.

[HsojVvad]

Nothing is wrong with it. I would gladly let you. Just hope you don't mind me asking, "uh, what is that agian?" a few times over and over again. I do not know what everything is so I rely on explanations anyway.

As long as you don't try the "yes he is holding a flamethrower, but it counts as melta" then say "no it's a lasgun" What ever you say before the game begins is fine with me.

[BuFFo]

Playing with proxies is fine. Just do it and have fun.

[Mystery.Shadow]

One of the things that I like is when an opponent uses a proxy and mentions the name of the proxy every time it performs an action.

Njal casting X on Y
Blood Claws running.
Long Fangs shooting at Z
etc

Marines proxying for Marines is ok in my book. Eldar proxying for Orks makes me wonder....

[DarkAngelHopeful]

I don't have a problem with proxies. I do it all the time. Heck, I used to play paper hammer with WFB. lol. The only thing I'm afraid of is home brewed rules, but I don't have much experience with them. I just know some people would try to abuse them. But I would still play against them and you.

But yes, proxy away!

[fuzzbuket]

with that many marines you could build 1000 pts of each (ba, sw, BT/DA)
and have some vanilla mentors so the mentors could proxy but itd still be clear on what army your playing

so 1500 pts
1000 pts of chosen army (SW) (= grey hunters/ bjorn/ fancy puppy stuff)
500pts of mentors (tacs, devs, stuff thats in all SM lists :D)

[facelessone]

im starting a blood angels. as chaos. just to piss off my friend who hates chaos,and that i hate my chaos codex.. watch him cry when i use drop pods ,dreds that are librarians & not crazy,fast tanks,DOA & red thirst ..im sick of all the elite poster boy space marine getting all the cool s#!t

[BuFFo]

im starting a blood angels. as chaos. just to piss off my friend who hates chaos,and that i hate my chaos codex.. watch him cry when i use drop pods ,dreds that are librarians & not crazy,fast tanks,DOA & red thirst ..im sick of all the elite poster boy space marine getting all the cool s#!t

Do you hang out in cemeteries at night just for kicks?

[Lerra]

I do the same thing (one custom chapter that can play as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, or vanilla). It works out great.

[Fellend]

Go for it, I'd be thankful if I get to face different armies every time I play the same opponent

[gcsmith]

Count as is completely acceptable, as a paint scheme is just that paint, doesnt force you to use a book. Its like saying someones BA cant be green.

[BuFFo]

Count as is completely acceptable, as a paint scheme is just that paint, doesnt force you to use a book. Its like saying someones BA cant be green.

So you don't mind playing against my Tau Empire, even though they are all Dark Eldar/Imperial Guard models?

[Lerra]

As long as you can easily tell what everything is supposed to be, I really don't care what the base model is.

We've got a really cool Que'vesa army locally (humans who have joined the Tau empire). It's mostly Guard models but it is converted so it fits wysiwyg.

You could probably find a way to make DE counts-as Tau work. Maybe as DE who have stolen a bunch of Tau tech.

[gcsmith]

well given he was talking about marines which mainly only differ due to scheme....?

[steelmage99]

I made my SM army to do just this.

My Assault Marines (without Jump Packs) are Blood Angels yesterday, Blood Claws today and Crusader Squads tomorrow.

One thing I do though. For the more powerful or special choices I use the real models (painted in my own colour-scheme, of course).
I have bought actual Death Company marines and they are painted black, my Sanguinary Guard are "real" and painted gold and my Thunderwolf Cavalry are converted Blood Crushers (thanks Isotope99).
I cannot imagine not buying some of the new Grey Knights and painting them up.

All of the above gives me two things; I get to collect and paint the new amazing models and nobody can accuse me of being cheap and screwing the hobby aspect over.

The funny thing is that while I have made it so that they CAN be used as any chapter, I actually haven't done so yet. I have only used them as vanilla marines and Dark Angels (pre-FAQ), never as Space Wolfs or Blood Angels. While I am certain that I will buy some of the new Grey Knight models (as mentioned above), I don't really see myself playing them. Just not my thing.

[BuFFo]

well given he was talking about marines which mainly only differ due to scheme....?

This is sorta my point.

At my store, when I find out what chapter a person's marines are supposed to be, I REFUSE to play games with them if they swamp armies.

I don't buy the BS that jsut because you own marines they can be any chapter. No, you pick one, you stay with it.

Like I said, most people would not play me in RL if I plopped down my Dark Eldar and said it was Orks.

Either all armies can do it, or none can.

Now, if I was in a gaming group where no one cared, than neither would I. But I don't see that happening, like, ever.

I don't see why a marine player with a 500$ army can chose between 5 separate armies while my 1200$ Dark Eldar army can only play,m Dark Eldar.

NOW.... I am NOT talking about converting. I have a friend who converted Orks into a Marine Army. In this case I am perfectly happy playing either Orks or Marines.

My issue is playing Marine players who feel the want/need to swap armies on a daily basis. No sir.

[DrLove42]

I agree with Buffo on this one.

Being able to buy one army and have 5 codexes...7 if you decide you can play them as Grey Knights or Chaos Marines. And when Sister get released I wouldn't be suprised if some players start using marines as them as well

It isn't fair. But it is just another way of GW favouring their poster boys. And increasing sales in there biggest line..."Buy one army, get 7 free!" can't be far off.

[LemanRussCommander]

i think as long as someone proxies something that can be explained without saying "just close your eyes and imagine" i don't have a problem with it. But i also believe that intent goes a long way i.e. someone wants to try out a new SM codex with his nilla list that's fine, or they want to customise their khorne army into BA to play with some different units ok. But if said name player is going around with 3 army lists in his bag depending on who he meets at the store or group, just to get an edge on someone than i would be against the principle. In all honesty some people just don't have the money or understanding significant other (she's too good to me) i'm not going to rain down on them for not having six figures in the bank

[HsojVvad]

OH SIGH. People pretending a piece of plastic is something but can't be something else. Some people are just full of it. Here we go again, of someone trying to say how the hobby is suppose to work.

If you want to use your DE as Tau, go right ahead. If you want to use your Orks as SM, go right ahead.

Nobody, and I mean Nobody can tell you what to do. If anyone who does, this speaks more of their character than anything else.

Who the heck are you to say someone can't use their DE as Tau? I can't believe some of these people are worse than the Jocks in highschool who have picked on nerds. I still can't believe people think they are better than others just because of plastic toy soldiers.

Please show me in the BRB where you can't do this?

[DarkLink]

I agree with HsojVvad. Why does anyone care? Who gives a #@%$ if the Marine player had a cheap and convenient way to play multiple armies? It really doesn't matter. It doesn't. This is a game, where we move around little lumps of plastic and roll dice. It's not that important, except for the having fun part. And if a Marine player is feeling like playing a different army, and has the means to maintain WYSIWYG to a reasonable level, why should anyone get mad at him for it? There is no reason. Well, ok, there's no good reason.

[BuFFo]

I agree with HsojVvad. Why does anyone care? Who gives a #@%$ if the Marine player had a cheap and convenient way to play multiple armies? It really doesn't matter. It doesn't. This is a game, where we move around little lumps of plastic and roll dice. It's not that important, except for the having fun part. And if a Marine player is feeling like playing a different army, and has the means to maintain WYSIWYG to a reasonable level, why should anyone get mad at him for it? There is no reason. Well, ok, there's no good reason.

I don't get mad. I just don't play them. You picked Black Templars, play Black Templars.

[Crevab]

So you're fine with Proxies... as long as they follow the rules you make up?

[gcsmith]

w8 so my paint scheme forces me to play BT, well its a good thing they are finally good again. Otherwise Id of been using codex marines.

[Zelron]

OH SIGH. People pretending a piece of plastic is something but can't be something else. Some people are just full of it. Here we go again, of someone trying to say how the hobby is suppose to work.

If you want to use your DE as Tau, go right ahead. If you want to use your Orks as SM, go right ahead.

Nobody, and I mean Nobody can tell you what to do. If anyone who does, this speaks more of their character than anything else.

Who the heck are you to say someone can't use their DE as Tau? I can't believe some of these people are worse than the Jocks in highschool who have picked on nerds. I still can't believe people think they are better than others just because of plastic toy soldiers.

Please show me in the BRB where you can't do this?

Well, I'm by no means a competitive player and in my gaming group, we are quite laid back regarding WYSIWYG, but I think a great part of this hobby is collecting, painting and converting. I would find it disrespectful if my opponent showed up with a proxy army, time and time again. You say that nobody can tell him what to do, but if you don't have any opponents to game, that is quite a paradox.

Mutual respect for the hobby is important for me, if I am to engage myself in a game with another wargamer.

[fuzzbuket]

OH SIGH. People pretending a piece of plastic is something but can't be something else. Some people are just full of it. Here we go again, of someone trying to say how the hobby is suppose to work.

If you want to use your DE as Tau, go right ahead. If you want to use your Orks as SM, go right ahead.

Nobody, and I mean Nobody can tell you what to do. If anyone who does, this speaks more of their character than anything else.

Who the heck are you to say someone can't use their DE as Tau? I can't believe some of these people are worse than the Jocks in highschool who have picked on nerds. I still can't believe people think they are better than others just because of plastic toy soldiers.

Please show me in the BRB where you can't do this?
well look at it like this: i spend hundreds of hours into a army- when a play someone i dont care that there army isnt nicely painted or converted, just as long as they have mad the effort. with TLOS and nice terrain 40k can be very cinematic. however that cinimatic feel is lost if im playing orks proxied by Mcdonalds toys and a can of irn bru!

as zerlon said its about respect.

/rant over

-fuzz

[isotope99]

well look at it like this: i spend hundreds of hours into a army- when a play someone i dont care that there army isnt nicely painted or converted, just as long as they have mad the effort. with TLOS and nice terrain 40k can be very cinematic. however that cinimatic feel is lost if im playing orks proxied by Mcdonalds toys and a can of irn bru!

as zerlon said its about respect.

/rant over

-fuzz

Surely it should be a kan of Irn Bru. :D (inner self: so lame :()

[DarkLink]

I don't get mad. I just don't play them. You picked Black Templars, play Black Templars.

Would you refuse to play another player if they borrowed someone else's army because they wanted to try out something different?

[Tynskel]

I don't get why people get all roughed up by counts as:

if you are playing with friends, it is probably because you want to try something new.

if you are playing at a tournament, it is probably a conversion, and all it needs to be is WYSIWYG.

Done--- if your opponent cannot remember what it is, even with all the wargear on the model, their brains are probably too small to play this game, anyhow.

[HsojVvad]

So you're fine with Proxies... as long as they follow the rules you make up?

Who said anything about making up rules? You follow the rules in the codex?

[HsojVvad]

I don't get mad. I just don't play them. You picked Black Templars, play Black Templars.

You might not be getting mad, but you are getting upset. It upsets you enought not to play them. An Elietes attitude.


Well, I'm by no means a competitive player and in my gaming group, we are quite laid back regarding WYSIWYG, but I think a great part of this hobby is collecting, painting and converting. I would find it disrespectful if my opponent showed up with a proxy army, time and time again. You say that nobody can tell him what to do, but if you don't have any opponents to game, that is quite a paradox.

Mutual respect for the hobby is important for me, if I am to engage myself in a game with another wargamer.


well look at it like this: i spend hundreds of hours into a army- when a play someone i dont care that there army isnt nicely painted or converted, just as long as they have mad the effort. with TLOS and nice terrain 40k can be very cinematic. however that cinimatic feel is lost if im playing orks proxied by Mcdonalds toys and a can of irn bru!

as zerlon said its about respect.

/rant over

-fuzz

Ah respect. I find it funny. It is you guys who are being disrespectfull. You are not respecting the other persons opnion or way of life. Again, as was said numerous times, not everyone has the time, or the money or the ambtion as you guys. While you may spend hundreds of hours painting and converting, orthers don't like to. While you may have the money to buy multiple armies, not everyone can. Some can afford one army and would like to try out others.

While the person who may not the WYSIWYG army or a Non Counts as army, repects you, you in return do not respect him.

Of course you know how silly you guys are? No "counts as"? "Counts as" is unacceptable? You know that SM that is an Ultra Marine painted blue is "COUNTS AS" a SM that is an Ultra Marine. As soon as you are putting the piece of plastic down, or piece of metal down it is "counts as". All it is, is a piece of plastic. You are imagining it as an Ultramarine.

What about Black Templars, Blood Angels? I am sure alot of people are buying Ultra Marines and using them as "counts as". Ultra Marines are on the box, so they must be Ultra Marines then. All they are doing is just painting them as a different colour.

Same for DIY chapters. They are "counts as". So the SM chapter, of Hello Kitty Sailor Moon, is a "counts as" army. They are using the SM codex. But if I remember corectly, the SM codex is an Ultra Marine codex, but to use any other chapter, it is "counts as".

Anyways, who the hell are you guys to be going agaisnt what GW says? GW says it's perfectly fine to use, counts as. They have not trouble with it at all. As long as you are using GW stuff, it is perfectly fine LOL.

You talk about respect for the hobby. Well this is where YOU GUYS Disrespect the HOBBY with your attitude. You disrespect the hobby more that the person who uses count's ***.

I just shake my head in shame, reading how Geeks and Nerds are telling other Geeks and Nerds they are not good enough.

[Zelron]

HsojVvad - to be a little forthcomming, I understand what you are saying and respect your viewpoint, but I must say I just don't agree. Sure, proxy an army or some new units to try them out, but if my opponent continues to proxy models or new armies in an ongoing pattern (e.g. plays 5 different SM codexes with the same models) I would think him a cheapskate or lazy, and would probably look somewhere else for a game of 40k.

[Valkerie]

The Hello Kitty Sailor Moon Chapter would be awesome!:)

[LemanRussCommander]

The Hello Kitty Sailor Moon Chapter would be awesome!:)

I distinctly remember seeing their dreadie destroying things in the name of cuteness somewhere around here before

[steelmage99]

HsojVvad - to be a little forthcomming, I understand what you are saying and respect your viewpoint, but I must say I just don't agree. Sure, proxy an army or some new units to try them out, but if my opponent continues to proxy models or new armies in an ongoing pattern (e.g. plays 5 different SM codexes with the same models) I would think him a cheapskate or lazy, and would probably look somewhere else for a game of 40k.


This is an odd attitude.

I use my marine models as whatever chapter I feel like.
They are painted a neutral grey and they use a mix of Dark Angels and Black Templar bits.

http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/105439869.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/106072100.jpg


I own large armies (3500+ points) for every codex out there (except Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons. See a pattern?).
I currently have 10 active armies that I play 3-4 games with and then switch.
These armies are all converted and painted.

My switching have nothing to do with "flavour of the week". I am just as likely to play my Necrons and Tau, as I am Space wolves and Blood Angels (none of which I have yet felt any desire to play. Funny that).

But I don't eat the **** GW is shovelling. THEY might feel a need to have 5 different space marine armies out there, but I certainly don't.
I get it. It makes sense from a business standpoint. I am just not stupid enough to fall for it.

And some sore whiner with preconceived ideas about why I do what I do certainly won't change anything.


http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k

[HsojVvad]

Those are beautifully painted army steelmage. Very well done.

@ Zelron, I can see where you are coming from. Now the question is, why is your opponent doing this? Is he doing it because what ever is the most powerfull for what scenario? This I don't agree with. Does he do it for just a change of pace? I don't see nothing wrong with this.

I guess it all comes to personal preference. No one is right or wrong. I just think the problem is, how people percieve how the "Hobby" has to be done. Not everyone is into it as others are. So are so into it, that everthing must be what you see is what you get, and every mini has to be named and have fluff history to it.

Too my knowladge most people don't have all their minis named with a history to it. Each person likes or loves this hobby. It all comes to how much they like it or love it.

[Tynskel]

This is an odd attitude.

I use my marine models as whatever chapter I feel like.
They are painted a neutral grey and they use a mix of Dark Angels and Black Templar bits.



heheh, neutral anything marines!!

Although, I like the way you have them modeled n' painted!

[DrLove42]

See neutral colours you get a way with a bit more...but when they're all Ultrasmufts...or have been painstakingly converted to Crimson Fists, asking to accept them as something else i pushing it

I have no problem with people borrowing others army to see if they like it, more than happy to help them practise with something. Or proxying a new unit in to see if they like it before they buy the model. Thats 100% fine in my eyes.

What isn't is using one army as another because you've suddenly realised one army has something better than you. Or newer. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the poster boys getting a new codex every 3-4 months so its always chop and change. If necrons or sisters wanted to swap they have better reasons for it. But marines already being very good, just swapping in and out to suit each opponent a little more is little insulting

And if you complain about my lack of respect to someone using his own models for something he wants, he (or she) is asking me to play against them. Where's their respect to me in that?

If i wanted to try a new army (as i have a few times) i bought a codex, proxied a few games then bought the whole lot. Not switch-n-swoped by way through

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

my gaming group wouldnt care, we use counts-as all the time, most of us have at least 1 minor xeno race army, one guy has squats he uses as Orks, and barghesi he uses as chaos daemons, I have ulumeathi (space wolves), necronic admech (necrons), enslavers (eldar), another guy has a really awesome demiurg army which he uses imperial guard rules with, and my best bud Katy mainly plays a bright pink zoat with umbra allies army that count as tyranids. And honestly when I see most gaming groups and how "to the book" and uncreative peoples armies are, it just makes me feel lucky that my buds are so imaginative and talented (far more than me to haha) and it;'s really all thanks to counts-as.

[BuFFo]

So you're fine with Proxies... as long as they follow the rules you make up?

Elaborate please. I don't know what you are on about here.

[cobra6]

All my current armies are counts-as. I have pre-Heresy World Eaters (Blood Angels), and the chaos Bloodpact from Gaunts Ghosts (mixed infantry and tank IG.) That said, both are heavily converted and rigorously WYSIWYG: meltagun is a meltagun, the screaming marines drenched in blood and swinging chainaxes are 'Death Company', etc.

For me, a huge part of the enjoyment of a game is the visual story aspect of it. I love it when my Bloodpact take on "The Salamanders" and will model a green helmet trophy on one of my models if I win, or something like that. That aspect of my enjoyment tends to plumet when I take on an unpainted "army" of bodiless space marine legs counting as Long Fangs or similar. I can get over it if my opponent is genuinely starting a SW army and just hasn't had time to assemble or paint them. I can't get over it if this is the tenth time I have come up against the unpainted bodiless legs in 6 months, and they use a new codex half the time while never picking up a paintbrush or finishing the assembly.

I welcome counts-as if I have any reason to think that the person doing it actually gives the slightest hoot about "the hobby," their models, and me as their opponent. I'll play against Sailor Moon Hello Kitty Marines in a heartbeat, and will model a pink trophy helmet if I win. But if counts-as is just a vehicle for somebody to play a glorified game of craps with grudgingly-used "plastic counters"... hey, more power to you. But I don't enjoy participating in that game. Find somebody else to game with, and have a nice day.

[Zelron]

Steelmage: I think my point is more a matter of the attitude people have towards the game. Indeed if someone put so much work in their army, as you apparently have done, then I would not mind so much if they proxy an army once in a while. Very nice models btw :)
What annoys me is more a matter of the "band wagon-attitude", where people jump from codex to codex, because they think the newer one, is more powerful and competitive.

[Denzark]

Go to Tescos or Walmart. Buy 500+ green army men and 50 tanks for less than £10.

You may use them as all armies according to your whim.

FAQs made Grey knights the most powerful? Away you go. Fancy some Dark Eldar bandwagon jumping? Fill your boots.

[Crevab]

Elaborate please. I don't know what you are on about here.

Playing Space Wolves as Dark Angels is just as valid as Orks as Dark Eldar

[BuFFo]

Playing Space Wolves as Dark Angels is just as valid as Orks as Dark Eldar

Yeah.... no.

People in my area, and I can safely assume most people in the hobby too, accept a marine proxy over a xenos race one because the marine proxy, in their minds, makes more sense, while the xenos does not.

As long as this general conception is around, if my blood angel opponent wants to use his army as a space wolf army, I just say no thanks, play someone else.

This isn't about friendly proxies. This is about that tool that thinks his unpainted marines are perfect for ALL chapters. No they aren't. They are Ultramarines.

Maybe in your perfect world I could go to a complete stranger and say "hey, let my DE be tau", but that ain't happening.

Welcome to the hobby. Pick ana rmy, paint your guys accordingly, use your ONE army codex and have fun. Stop trying to jump from Ultras to Wolves to BA to DA just because you play flavor of the month.

[DarkLink]

Buffo, I'm surprised that you of all people would have such an arbitrary reason for not playing against counts-as. I won't begrudge you your choice, but it seems a pointless one to me.

[Commissar Lewis]

Honestly I'd be fine with regular Marine models as Wolves, as not everyone has the money to buy another army they are interested in.

[BuFFo]

Buffo, I'm surprised that you of all people would have such an arbitrary reason for not playing against counts-as. I won't begrudge you your choice, but it seems a pointless one to me.

I changed my mind recently.

The amount of Marine players just changing armies regardless if their models look like space wolves or blood angels is really getting to me lately.

For example...

a new player in the store got into Marines, and painted them red, and decided to play Blood Angels. He heard about space wolves and their Long Fangs and now plays his army as space wolves. Not because Space Wolves are cool, but because he wants to have 15 missiles to win games.

Another new player got into the game last year and picked up Tau. He is stuck with Tau, and hates his decision. Same with the THREE Necron playerS who dropped out of the hobby last yeah, and same with the Nid player who regrets his decision as well and doesn't play the game much anymore.

You can say I just don't respect marine players anymore. Marine players feel that they can just get a free pass, while other xenos players cannot. Yeah, it is cute for a Tau player to proxy his army as Tyranids maybe once, but no one would ever let that player do so game after game after game. And yeah, I am sure the people online here are 'okay with that'. Fantasy Island.

You paid for a Tau Army, you are stuck with it. You paid for a Space Wolf army, you can choose to play 4 other armies. NO . I am sick of this flavor of month garbage with marines.

If the new player (with stock Ultramarine models) playing Blood Angels wants to play Space Wolves, paint them in SW colors at the very least. At the VERY least repaint the friggin models.

[DarkLink]

I guess if people are annoying about it I can understand.

[BuFFo]

I guess if people are annoying about it I can understand.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I converted a friends Ork Army with All Marine bits. He can play the army either as Orks or Marines, and no one would bat an eye. Why? It is beautifully converted and painted.

I have no problem with count-as, proxies, whatever as long as it is in small doses.

I'll just be honest. I paid roughly 1200 bucks for my new Dark Eldar, and I am stuck with a single codex. I'll be damned if I let my opponent just flavor of the month his marines every month.

[HsojVvad]

Welcome to the hobby. Pick ana rmy, paint your guys accordingly, use your ONE army codex and have fun. Stop trying to jump from Ultras to Wolves to BA to DA just because you play flavor of the month.

I lost a bit of respect for you BuFFo. So judgemental. This comment sounds so, how do I say it? Douchey? Can't one person like more than one army?

So to be in the hobby you have to have each mini for each army? Again, someone might have spent alot of time making a Space Wolf army, and finally wants a change. He can't afford to buy new minis. So that should mean he should quit the hobby that he spent so much time making? How do you know they are playing "flavour of the month"? So you are Mr Know It All now eh?

I have read lots of threads of how people were having "fun" playing with proxies or what not. If your "fun" is not playing with proxies, I can respect that, BUT you don't have to be a prick about it.

Again, people like you are giving "OUR HOBBY" a black eye. There is no right or wrong. Espically when Games Workshop says it's ok to proxy.

Again, you don't want to play people with proxies, that is ok, but again, don't be a Dick about it.

:)

[steelmage99]

Wow, Buffo.

I am surprised. To me it sounds like you present an equal amount of "sour grapes" and "elitist hobbyism".

You automatically assume that a marine player switching between codexes does so because of "flavour of the month". This is odd.
Is the colour of the paint really that important?
Can't I play my Orks as speed freaks because my models are painted predominantly blue, and the traditional colour of speed freaks is red?
Can't my Chaos Space Marines (my very small modelling project) use daemons because they are painted as Iron Warriors, and they don't have a lot of truck with daemons?

I bring up those two because they used to have their own army lists. Their just got consolidated into their main codex.
The difference between those and the marine codexes is simply a marketing decision. And should that really be the deciding factor?

And how much are you really worried about the different paint jobs? I mean, really?

[BuFFo]

Steel and Hjo, you guys are over reacting, and at the very least missed my point completely. I am not talking about what you guys said ONE BIT.

And of course, being the internet, YOU guys are the ones actually insulting me calling me a dick, a douche, etc... Not once did I insult ONE person in this thread for their opinion, nor did I insult anyone I play with.

Perhaps you two need to step back, learn to respect other people's opinions or at least first TRY to understand what that is opinion IS before rushing to conclusions. Neither of you seem to have an idea what I am about.

Darklink is able to hold an adult conversation with me just fine, I don't see why this is lost on you two. We have different opinions, and we are able to converse just fine without resorting to Warseeresque proportions.

You two can do much better than this. Once you guys can talk to me without acting like a Melissa, I'll respond to you.

[DarkLink]

I can see where Buffo is coming from. If my opponents came every week and said "Hey, I want to try out this funny list with X Marines" and were cool about it, that's no problem.

But if they show up going on about how their new list they took of X blog is going to crush everyone and oh by the way I'm going to have to use my Wolves as Blood Angels... that would probably get pretty annoying after a while. It wouldn't even be about the army they played, I just wouldn't want to play that player.

Fortunately no one in my group does that. We do have two guys with SW armies who occasionally used their models under different rules, but they're cool about it. In fact, the last time they played each other using CSM rules. Not exactly band wagoning there;).

[steelmage99]

@ Buffo.

Yes, I can clearly see that you are having an easier time discussing with Darklink. Maybe that is because he is barely disagreeing with you.

I do not enjoy being accused of using the same wording as HjosVvad ( talk about an annoying name. It is practically begging to be misspelled).


The only thing vaguely insulting I addressed at you was;

"To me it sounds like you present an equal amount of "sour grapes" and "elitist douchebaggery".

Notice how I have included "to me it sounds like". This opens the possibility that I may be wrong.
I have been careful to say "present" which is less of a personal thing. It also have the two-fold possibility of both me being wrong and it being an attitude you represent more than embrace.
Also note that I present them in quotation-marks making them less personal and merely a listing of two different attitudes.

In the interest of continued discussion I have edited the original post to remove any, even vaguely, offending remarks.

[BuFFo]

For me, there is a difference between the following...

-- When it is okay to Proxy Marine Models --

1) New player in the hobby. I do not want them to feel daunted by the expense of the game, so if he wants to use his marines as various chapters before deciding which army to go into, fine by me!

2) When a player wants to try out a new marine army because maybe he wants to switch over.

-- When is is NOT okay to Proxy Marine Models --

1) When a player wants to try out a new marine army because maybe he wants to switch over. For the 5th time.


Now, I am still pissed at the general consensus of people in so that it is okay to call a Ultramarine a Space Wolf, but it is not okay to call a Tau a Blood Angel. I spent a butt load on dark Eldar, and I am currently getting into Orks. Now, realistically, I cannot play my Dark Eldar as Orks for the next 3 years, and in Tournaments as stock models. So I need to spend another couple hundred bucks for a second army, while the doof at my store has had the same 400 dollar non-painted plastic gray Marine army for 3 years, yet can choose from, what, 5 different armies without anyone batting an eye?

Am I am little more clear here? I am trying my best to convey my feelings!

- edit -

I am NOT TALKING about converted armies. As a matter of fact, I knew a person who bought units for all the Marine Chapters, and claimed his Marine Chapter is just an amalgam of different chapters, sort of like Death Watch. he switched armies on the fly, and I was PERFECTLY okay with that! He put in the effort to give a sh!t, so I reciprocated in kind!

[eagleboy7259]

It sounds like everyone is ganging up on Buffo just because his hobby experience isn't the exact same as the rest of the posters. Modeling, Painting and Collecting are all very important parts of our hobby. Gaming is up there, and sure its #1 for many people, but because someone enjoys the visual and dramatic experience that 40k offers I don't feel like he's necessarily wrong in denying that guy with proxies, unpainted and primed marines a game.

Secondly, experienced games who use proxies to powergame are every bit as bad, and in most cases, worse than hobby elitists. There is nothing wrong with the Space Marine Codex, the Space Wolves Codex or the Blood Angels Codex that should make you want to jump ship. If you play Chaos or even Black Templars / Dark Angels (pre or post FAQ) then I understand it a bit better because your costs are wrong, and GW has left you in the dust compared to the 5th ed books.

Third, 40k is a social thing. People play the game because the game is fun. However if the way you play the game is trampling on my experience than I reserve the right to not play you. Its the same way with every hobby - its not elitism - and if it is then who cares. I'm not going to expect a tournament fisher to come catch bluegill in my pond, nor would I expect every person in the bar to want to talk with me just because we are all drinking. It's just the way the world works.

[BuFFo]

I agree with your opinions fully Eagle.

Plenty of people in my area don't treat 40k as a Hobby, but as a game to just win. Luckily, some of them have dropped out of the 40k hobby and have started to get into another game more "their level" called Warmachine. I have a Legion army myself, but the play style just isn't my thing.

On a side note, I don't feel anyone is ganging up on me. Its all in good jest and fun here in the Lounge! :)

[HsojVvad]

Steel and Hjo, you guys are over reacting, and at the very least missed my point completely. I am not talking about what you guys said ONE BIT.

And of course, being the internet, YOU guys are the ones actually insulting me calling me a dick, a douche, etc... Not once did I insult ONE person in this thread for their opinion, nor did I insult anyone I play with.

Perhaps you two need to step back, learn to respect other people's opinions or at least first TRY to understand what that is opinion IS before rushing to conclusions. Neither of you seem to have an idea what I am about.

Darklink is able to hold an adult conversation with me just fine, I don't see why this is lost on you two. We have different opinions, and we are able to converse just fine without resorting to Warseeresque proportions.

You two can do much better than this. Once you guys can talk to me without acting like a Melissa, I'll respond to you.

Yes this being the interent, it's hard to know what the person was conveying. The quote I quoted you with is what I was comparing with. I do apoplogize for insulting, it wasn't my intent. I ment what you said, sounded douchey, not you.

So sorry if I was insulting you, that was not my intent. After reading your other post a bit down from here, I understand where you are coming from now. I just thought you would do this to anyone, like someone coming into the hobby and not sure what he wanted to play yet. I can see if it's the same person over and over agian doing it, I can fully understand now where you are coming from.

:D

[Squirrel_Fish]

My two cents is that I only play casually; usually with close friends and occasionally venture out to the FLGS. Although I have my space marines painted up their own colors with a nice variety of conversions, I will generally run them as blood angels just because I find that the its more aggressive playstyle enjoyable compared to Codex Marines.

However, in the rare scenario where I want to simply try something different (Ie. Lets see what happens when I field 60 scouts with sniper rifles), the people I play with don't have a problem with it.

Basically; the way I see it is that having a Space Marine army is like having a spork. You're probably going to be using it as either a fork or a spoon (rarely both at the same time), but if you want to casually try something new, you have the option to do so.

[BuFFo]

So sorry if I was insulting you, that was not my intent. After reading your other post a bit down from here, I understand where you are coming from now. I just thought you would do this to anyone, like someone coming into the hobby and not sure what he wanted to play yet. I can see if it's the same person over and over agian doing it, I can fully understand now where you are coming from.

:D

For the record, you are the cutest Vvad I have ever met, and I have met some hot Vvads! :p

[HsojVvad]

For the record, you are the cutest Vvad I have ever met, and I have met some hot Vvads! :p

LMFAO. Well, thanks... I am speechless. :p

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah I can agree with Buffo in that if someone every week was flip-flopping from Wolves to Blood Angels to Vanilla Marines back to Wolves, then regular again, it would get real old. Especially if said person was doing it for powergaming reasons. It's one thing to proxy to try out an army to decide if you want to start said army, another to do it just to powergame.

[Dezmo1218]

Yeah I can agree with Buffo in that if someone every week was flip-flopping from Wolves to Blood Angels to Vanilla Marines back to Wolves, then regular again, it would get real old. Especially if said person was doing it for powergaming reasons. It's one thing to proxy to try out an army to decide if you want to start said army, another to do it just to powergame.

I know exactly what you're talking about here. We had a guy that (thankfully ended up leaving the LGS for college) that would never finish building an army; by using tons of marines without arms, he could make the excuse he was just "trying things out" but after a few months of pulling the same crap, we had enough of it. Like Lewis said, it's one thing to "try things out" and then go with it, and another to keep retooling your list every week with different codices entirely.

[steelmage99]

..., and another to keep retooling your list every week with different codices entirely.

Could you elaborate a bit, please?

I assume you mean that I shouldn't use the same models to represent different codexes, but that isn't what you are saying.

[Dezmo1218]

Could you elaborate a bit, please?

I assume you mean that I shouldn't use the same models to represent different codexes, but that isn't what you are saying.

Let's say the dude has a 2000 Pt *Codex* Space Marine army, alk unpainted, with no weapons on vehicles and no arms on any of the marines... (I've seen this before). First off, you give your poor opponent a headache as he's trying to keep up with all your proxies. Let's say he loses to my Blood Angels.

The next game he decides to field the same grey models as BA... the next week he'll field the same models as Grey Knights, then the next as Dark Angels, then as Chaos, etc etc... granted they're generic SM models and technically can be all of the above when it comes to different chapters, but there comes a point where this gets ridiculous and a direction needs to be decided.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "Counts-as" armies. Models that have been finished in such a way that they represent a faction other than what their models convey. I'm not bothered by a World Eaters army that "Counts As" Blood Angels by using the BA Codex, as long as they make sense and they stay consistent with the wargear, etc.

I'm currently in the planning stages of a "two-armies in one" army of my own, and I'm going to be modeling my units so that they represent both of the two different armies. But the project is based on pure fun, not to win me games. I plan on even rolling a dice pre-game, with 1-3 resulting in one codex, and 4-6 resulting in using the other. But I'm keeping what I'm doing a secret, for now. ;)

So I guess I took my previous post in a different direction by just complaining about over-the-top lazy proxy players. Sorry.

[Lerra]

I almost never play the same list twice. My opponents, so far, haven't had any complaints because it means they get to play against a new list every week. Most people at my FLGS have one list that they've been playing for 5+ years, with only minor changes. They've all played each other a hundred times and they are bored of playing against those lists. I've got about 4-5k of space marines, and I've yet to run out of new things to try out. Last week I ran a list with 6 land speeders. Next week, I'm thinking of trying the same thing, but with all assault cannons in an assault-canon themed list. Maybe I'll try heavy flamers after that. I've also been itching to try out some Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts. They look cool, but I'll have to switch codices for that list because the DA book doesn't have Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts. Not a big deal with my group.

I can't see playing the game any other way. All of my minis are magnetized so that I can easily swap weapons, and I always play WYSIWYG.

[steelmage99]

Oh, I agree. Over-the-top lazy proxy players sucks.
But when the Sanguinary Guard is really Sanguinary Guard models, the Thunderwolf Cavalry is painstakingly converted Blood Crusher models and the Deathwing Terminator Squads are made up of actual Deathwing models, are we really that worried about the (WYSIWYG and painted, I might add) Assault Marines that happens to be Blood claws/Crusader Squads/Blood Angel Assault Marines every other time. Note that they are not painted as Space Wolves, Black Templar or Blood Angels, but in a totally different colour.

Are we really so sore about that fact that Marine players have the option to easily play as another marine codex (as they basically use the same models)?

Do we have a hard time understanding that the red-painted marines are Black Templars? As opposed to the black ones?
If they are WYSIWYG what is the problem?
All colour have basically been taken/associated with various chapters.

Can I field yellow painted marines as something other than Imperial Fists?
Can I field green painted marines as something other than Salamanders?
Can I field red painted marines as something other than Blood Angels?

See what I am getting at?

The problem isn't counts-as. It is the idiots that misuse an excellent way to play different armies.
I cannot imagine playing the same codex more than three or four times. Then I need a change.

I might change from having used Orks to using Necrons.
I might change form having used Tau to using Eldar.
And I might change.....here it comes.....from having used Blood Angels to using Dark Angels.

Why is it I have to stop using my grey (painted) marine models and change to a different colour just because I change codex?
It is still paid for, glued together, painted and WYSIWYG, for "insert-deity-of-choice-here"s sake!

Why do I keep hearing stuff like; "Well. because xenos-players have a harder time doing what the marine-players can do easily, then nobody should be able to do it!"? That just seems petty and narrow-minded to me.

[Deathula]

Personally using counts as every now and then for an army is cool with me, I dont have a problem with it. Guy at my local shop has a model that was not orgianlly a Fabius Bile model but only uses it as such, I would never have a problem with, stands out and does not look like any of the marines on the table.
Heck Im actually going though the process of converting my (almost) entire Loyalist army, minus those stupid scouts, and I'm using some of my Legion of the Damned ask 'Zerkers and the rest as Chosen, as it goes with the look I want.