Facing Daemons, What to expect?

[codiddy]

I'm currently in a 40k league at my local shop and I have to play daemons this saturday. I know the army is supposed to be slaanesh themed and we're playing at 1500 points. I don't know the guy and have never played daemons before. I'm not sure how fluffy he is so therefore even though I shouldn't be seeing any khorne stuff i want to be prepared for it as a possibility. I know they all have invulnerable saves, and the slaanesh stuff has high initiative, attacks, and rending, correct?


What are some good tactics to repel the daemonic onslaught? as my list stands right now everything starting on the table will have an armor value. (Thank the emperor for cheap rhino's!)

[DrLove42]

Demons are a pain. They can be hit and miss but they are hard. I've only faced a Khorne/tzeentch army so no specifics on the demonettes but general advice

Keep mobile - nearly everything will deepstrike in. React to it quickly

Everything that deepstrikes in has to be grouped up according to deep strike rules. Use its weaknesses of it can't assault that turn and if he forgets to run them to spread them out a good template can kill the entire squad.

Don't forget game is about objectives. Worst thing is having a last turn deepstrike troops onto objectives to claim them

If you have anything in your list that lets you interupt reserves/deepstrikes (like a master of the fleet in a guard army (+1 to reserve rolls required)) use it cos if you can keep the number he deploys low its easier for you.

Demonettes are exactly as you say though high I, but low T. They die to massed fire, but are potent in combat. A pure Slanesh army will be limited in antiarmour so depending on if he takes Soul Grinders or Demon Princes prioritise the break up of his army.

[codiddy]

oh yeah i play ultra marines by the way so unfortunately no regimental advisors for me :(

The army should be highly mobile: 3 full tacs in rhino's, one combat squad in a razorback, 2 typhoon land speeders, a vindicator, predator destructor (Side note: every time I see someone call it a dakka pred it makes me die a little on the inside) an ironclad with heavy flamer and hurricane bolter, and a ven dread with assault cannon. nothing too squishy will start on the table. my plan is to just bury the daemons in saves, since they all have invulnerables anyway


oh and before someone try's to point it out, yes i know there is no HQ. this game has some odd composition rules and hq's are optional. I also am required to spend at least 750 points on troops

[DarkLink]

Daemonettes are fast, fragile and have lots of attacks. Flame them, or tie them up with your Dreads. They can't hurt the Ironclad, and they can only glance the Venerable, who can then minimize the damage he takes.

Keep stuff mechanized, and keep it moving. Use tank shocks to split up his army. Try walling off a unit or two, then putting your entire army into that, and take him apart piece by piece. The fact that he can scatter around a lot due to deepstrike, and that his whole army won't be on the board will help you a lot.

And try shooting any Monstrous creatures to death. Typhoons and predators are good for this. Focus fire on one, and take them out one at a time if possible.

[SonicPara]

Landspeeder Storms can wreak havoc with deep striking as any unit deep striking within 6" of the speeder deviates 4d6 instead of 2d6. It also turns off Chaos Icons within 6" so any deep strikes to that icon would deviate as normal, unless the unit is also placed within 6" of the speeder. It would then deviate 4d6.

You can couple the storm and its free HB with a squad of 3 scouts with bolters, 1 with HB w/ Hellfire Shells, and the Sergeant with a bolter as well and you'll be able to get 8 bolter rounds and 6 HB rounds (though the scout's hellfire shell would be money on a unit fresh out of deep strike) in case the deep striking unit hits its mark.

If you actually want to move your speeder, drop the scout's HB and spend the points to upgrade the speeder's HB to a Heavy Flamer. Also give your sergeant a combi-flamer. That deep striking daemon unit thats all grouped together would get hit by a heavy flamer and the sergeant's combi-flamer, as well as the 8 rapid fire bolter rounds coming from the other scouts.

It isn't a terribly inexpensive cohesive unit at around 160 points but it could wreak havoc with deep striking daemons and if it somehow survives (don't count on it) then you have a speedy scoring transport to use late-game.

[codiddy]

Landspeeder Storms can wreak havoc with deep striking as any unit deep striking within 6" of the speeder deviates 4d6 instead of 2d6. It also turns off Chaos Icons within 6" so any deep strikes to that icon would deviate as normal, unless the unit is also placed within 6" of the speeder. It would then deviate 4d6.

You can couple the storm and its free HB with a squad of 3 scouts with bolters, 1 with HB w/ Hellfire Shells, and the Sergeant with a bolter as well and you'll be able to get 8 bolter rounds and 6 HB rounds (though the scout's hellfire shell would be money on a unit fresh out of deep strike) in case the deep striking unit hits its mark.

If you actually want to move your speeder, drop the scout's HB and spend the points to upgrade the speeder's HB to a Heavy Flamer. Also give your sergeant a combi-flamer. That deep striking daemon unit thats all grouped together would get hit by a heavy flamer and the sergeant's combi-flamer, as well as the 8 rapid fire bolter rounds coming from the other scouts.

It isn't a terribly inexpensive cohesive unit at around 160 points but it could wreak havoc with deep striking daemons and if it somehow survives (don't count on it) then you have a speedy scoring transport to use late-game.
A very solid tactic, the scatter shenanigans would be very disruptive. Unfortunately I don't have a land speeder storm or any scouts with bolters :( I've been considering picking up a storm for a while now, but my store doesn't usually stock them and if i tried to order one it wouldn't be here by saturday. There is another daemon player in the league though, so i may end up facing daemons again in the future. If i do i will probably have a storm or 2 to suprise them with :)


Also does anybody have any idea where to get an actual combi-flamer? the captain sprue only has -melta and -plasma and the only combi-flamer i've ever seen is metal and attached to my chaplain cassius.

[DrLove42]

Also does anybody have any idea where to get an actual combi-flamer? the captain sprue only has -melta and -plasma and the only combi-flamer i've ever seen is metal and attached to my chaplain cassius.

I've never seen a genuine one, but then i'm not a marine player. Either chop and stick a flamer on somehow or... http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=82&category_id=24 if you're feeling a bit rich

[DaveLL]

It does depend on how strict your opponent is on the Slaanesh theme. That said, there are some fairly universal things you can keep in mind.

First, even with rending and MCs your opponent probably will have trouble against your vehicles. Especially vehicles that can go over 6" (so he'll only hit them on a 6 in CC, which is most of what Daemons have) and still be useful. Keep any LRs moving over 6" and they'll probably make it to the end of the game. If they don't, it'll probably be because your opponent dedicated an awful lot of points to taking them out.

Good AP weapons are next to worthless against most Daemons. Get something that has lots of shots or a blast or flamer template. Decently high S weapons (about 6 or so) are useful against MCs, but otherwise are wasted. In other words, don't bring many lascannons. Rapid-fired bolters work much better than you'd expect against a daemon army.

Daemons have almost no vehicles. You opponent may bring Soul Grinders, which are essentially large deepstriking fleet ironclads, but as long as you have at least some melta or anti-tank and take any Soul Grinders out as quickly as reasonably possible you should be fine.

Most Slaanesh units have both offensive and defensive grenade equivalents, so you won't get a bonus attack for charging them. You may, depending on your unit, still be better off charging them to deny them the bonus attack for charging you... but they do have a lot of attacks, at high I. Daemonettes can't take out real CC specialists, but they'll make mincemeat of a standard squad in CC.

Now that I'm done betraying my army to the enemy, I hope Tzeentch doesn't find out. Or that it was all part of its plan in the first place, and it approves.

[Erasmus of Baal]

Now that I'm done betraying my army to the enemy, I hope Tzeentch doesn't find out. Or that it was all part of its plan in the first place, and it approves.

Given that Slaanesh isn't exactly his best of buddies, I think you're fine. :p

[codiddy]

Thanks dave! I think I was heading in the right direction, as I had already swapped out a lascannon for a misille launcher in one of the tactical squads. I had also switched the dread's main weapon from plasma cannon to assault cannon since those damn daemons will just laugh at all my low AP stuff

[SombreBrotherhood]

Low AP weapons are still useful, so don't toss away those plasma guns or krak rounds just yet. Popular, hard hitting units like Iron Hide Winged Demon Princes (who have a 3+ and 5++) and Bloodcrushers (same) still need the low AP stuff to thin them out.

Some general rules of thumb, since you don't know exactly what you'll be facing is:
Shoot all MCs as often as you can, beginning with the fast ones (wings); charge tzeentch units (they have the best saves, 4++ but are generally much weaker and slower than you are); and shoot Khorne units from cover, if you can (b/c they ALL have furious assault, and bloodletters/bloodcrushers carry power weapons, and have no grenades); Slaanesh should be shot, Fiends especially, but Daemonettes are only scary in large numbers. Remember, on average only half will hit, and only a third of those wounds T4, and only a third of those actually cut your armor. So be wary, but not frightened.

[codiddy]

Don't worry sombre i'll still have a plasma gun, 2 missile launchers, 2 typhoon missile launchers, meltagun and multi-melta. Plus the 2 dreads that can handle most things with a strength 10 powerfist to the face!

[Hellsteath]

I understand you are using an unusual composition set up, but if you can find the points, a Null zone Libby would be worth his weight in gold.

If you face BloodCrushers, then let your dreads play with them, they can only damage it on a charge, so then you only need worry about the chance of a single modle who MAY have rending.

[Daemonette666]

I'm currently in a 40k league at my local shop and I have to play daemons this saturday. I know the army is supposed to be slaanesh themed and we're playing at 1500 points. I don't know the guy and have never played daemons before. I'm not sure how fluffy he is so therefore even though I shouldn't be seeing any khorne stuff i want to be prepared for it as a possibility. I know they all have invulnerable saves, and the slaanesh stuff has high initiative, attacks, and rending, correct?


What are some good tactics to repel the daemonic onslaught? as my list stands right now everything starting on the table will have an armor value. (Thank the emperor for cheap rhino's!)
I play daemons, so I know the good and bad things about playing with a daemon army. I never get to use my 5800 point all at once thankfully, I would not have enough room to bring on half the army in first turn via deep striking (big hint here - see next couple of paragraphs)

One weakness of daemons is they have to split their force in 2, with half of the army arriving randomly through out the game upto turn 5 when they rest arrive. Which half your opponent gets to put on first is also random but a 2 in 3 chance they get the half they want.

Second weakness they have to deep strike - all of them. One game I lost 3 units to deep strike mishaps. Your opponent will either have to keep his units of daemons smaller to reduce dangerous terrain/deep strike mishaps or go with a few big units and hope he does not scatter them too much. He could try to spread his forces, which means you inevitable get to shoot up the closer isolated units. (Especially those with Icons which stop his troops from scattering when they deep strike). Slaanesh has a very high iniative for most of it's units. I love to use seekers whch fortunatley for you are not generally available again for a short while. I have a few from when they were in metal,and love to drop them behind another unit, then use their 12" charge to assault with their rending attacks.

What to expect from a Slaanesh themed army? - SLAANESH --- hmmmmmmm. Ok, Slaanesh troops fast attack have only str and tgh of 3, so not overly strong. A 5= invul, so they will get saves, but if you hit them enough, they go down in their droves. They have rending attacks seekers 5 on the charge, daemonettes 4 on the charge (each). They have attack and defence grenades, so you charging them does not give you a bonus, it just stops them getting the extra attack each. They can upgrade to an icon and minstrument, so this helps bringing more trops down, and helps resolve combat resolution draws. They are fleet, and since they have no ranged weapons, expect them to fleet/run each turn.

Heralds can join units, get mounts or as with one of mine ride in a chariot, and can use their (not a psychic power) pavane of Slaanesh abiltiy i fthey pay for it. Heralds can get an icon.

The Masque is not necessarily woth the points Sure she has a 3= invul, but she cannot join a unit, so can be targetted easily, and although she has 3 pavanes of slaanesh each turn, it only has a range of 18", and can only move your troops upto 6"

In order to get some fire power, your oppnent need a soul grinder, or a daemon prince. This will give him a few template/ vomit attack weapons, and some that can strike your heavier tanks Rng 24" Str 10 AP1 tougue attack, Rng 36" Str 8 AP3 Large Blast, both cost 25 points each, and are destroyed with a single weapons destroyed result. The soul Grinder has fleet, and all its attacks are assault weapons including the Harvester Rng 24" Str 4 Ap5 Assault 6. It has 2 Dreadnought close combat weapons and 4 base attacks. Its cost is quite reasonable at between 135and 185 points, and has a front/sde armour of 13. Make it a priority to kill with the anti-tank weapons.

The daemon prince can get wings, so jump infantry/monstrous creature. that can pull you out of cover, hit and run, and has attack and defence grenades - providing your opponent has paid for the upgrades. (i always do - except for the hit and run one). This is just like a junior Officer, who is an devastating close combat unit on their own. Watchout fotr this unit, I generally use cover and then hit hard with this.

The Keeper of Secrets is the big Mummy/Daddy of the army, Similar to the Daemon Prince, except it gets fleet automatically, instead of an upgade to wins (can not get them). You can get upgrades that make it stronger, it can get daemonic gaze a shooting attack, and gets an instrument option, and its a monstrous creature, so bye-bye armour saves.

The last unit in an all Slaanesh army are the fiends. They are just an elit choice which is nearly like the Seekers, as they are a beast choice. The only difference is they have multiple wounds, a Tgh of 4, and 6 rending attacks on the charge. They get hit and run ability automatically, but fortunately for you they do not get attack and defence grenades.

Tactics that have beaten me in the past are: when he deep strikes, target the units with Icons and heralds which can get icons first. Sit in cover, his few attacks that can be employed against you do not ignore cover saves. take out the Soul Grinders, and wipe out the Masque and Heralds and Daemon Prince who can pull your troops out of cover.

If you have to move to take objectives, use drop pods, or rush troops up in APCs, then hide in the cover. Massive ammounts of fire power and artillery is the key to wipingout the rather weak Tgh hoardes. They only have a 5+ save. Once you are locked in close combat, unless you are using Tgh 5 or higher troops/units, and really good armour, and lots of attacks yourself (providing doesn't roll lots of 6's to rend), then you can kiss your but good-bye.

But wait, What if he brings daemons from another Chaos Power along? OMG Same tactics, just add the Tzeentch Daemons to the priority list. They have shooting attacks, so can shoot at you in cover as well.

And Bloodletters have power weapons, but are Init 1 if they charge you through cover (no attack grenades)

I hope this has helped.

Death to the Corpse Emperor.

[codiddy]

Thanks for the help everyone. I think I should be pretty well prepared. All of my troops will be in rhinos/razorbacks to start which should force him to concentrate a lot of effort on them if he wants to get into CC with my troops.

The only thing I'm debating is the loadout for the ironclad. right now i'm planning on running him with the hurricane bolter, chainfist (S10+2d6 murders other walkers) and a heavy flamer. I'm not sure if i should swap out the hurricane bolter for a second heavy flamer and extra attack, or leave it so he can actually take some shots at range and then at close range rapid fire then assault some T3 troops.

[Mr. Smith]

Very important. Remember to always assault the Keeper of Secrets because you'll always go first.

[codiddy]

Very important. Remember to always assault the Keeper of Secrets because you'll always go first.
I thought he has Init 10? how do i go first?

[DaveLL]

I thought he has Init 10? how do i go first?

I suspect Mr. Smith was trying to be funny. You don't go first if you assault the KoS.

[Mr. Smith]

I suspect Mr. Smith was trying to be funny. You don't go first if you assault the KoS.

Not trying, sir. Succeeding.

Never assault the Keeper, it is the perfect monster for wiping tactical squads the like. I'd probably recommend shooting it with rapid fire plasma or something along those, maybe those cool assault cannons that you marines love to use so much. Shots with high strength, ap doesn't matter, really. The Keeper doesn't get Iron Hide, so he's only got a 4+ invulnerable save.

The same motto for everything else in the army though, lot of shots to whittle the slaanesh tide down. templates will probably be useful here. As well as some meltaguns if he's bringing Soul Grinders.

[DarkLink]

Not trying, sir. Succeeding.

YMMV. I couldn't tell if you were trying to be funny, or if you horribly misunderstood how assault grenades work, or something.

But, yes, avoid the KOS with everything but THSS Terminators.

[Mr. Smith]

YMMV.

I don't understand what that means.

Oh, and mek up because the dude might be rocking like eight pavane of slaanesh's.

[DarkLink]

I don't understand what that means.

Oh, and mek up because the dude might be rocking like eight pavane of slaanesh's.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary :p

And, yeah, mech against Daemons is pretty much always a good idea. And if he has the Masque, take a turn to rapid fire it to death, as it's pretty easy to kill

[codiddy]

the mission ended up being capture and control and we got a draw. being meched up definitely helped. i was able to kill his daemon prince before he even took a shot, and was able to shoot down the masque before it did any damage.

Bonus points to daemonette666 for pointing out that the masque isn't an independent character, as he didn't realize this and was trying to plop it into a unit. If you hadn't mentioned it i wouldn't have known any better and would have had a hell of a time taking it down.

His soul grinder got to shoot a few times, but failed to wound or even glance a single thing before a land speeder snuck behind it and blew it up with a nicely placed krak missile.

The keeper was a B-itch though. That thing mowed through vehicles like they were made of cardboard. i shot the crap out of it the whole game, but was only able to take off two wounds due to him passing almost all it's saves

[DarkLink]

The keeper was a B-itch though. That thing mowed through vehicles like they were made of cardboard. i shot the crap out of it the whole game, but was only able to take off two wounds due to him passing almost all it's saves

That's what psycannons are for:p

[Daemonette666]

That's what psycannons are for:p
Don't mention psycannons to me - OOOH they hurt.

I will never take daemons against Grey knights again if I can help it. Now that they have lost their versoin of the without number rule, I get slaughtered every time. Especially since the smug GK player I know uses 2 mystics in his Inquisitor's retinue when he plays against Daemons. The he targets my soul grinder, and Tzeentch troops to stop any ranged shooting at him.

I can not land close to him, and he just shoots up the remaining troops with psycannon and incinerators from cover, and then if I do get into close combat, I have usually lost my Daemonettes and Plague bearers by then, and I am at Init 1, and get wiped out. He takes as many template and blast weapons as he can.

I have worked out a CSM army to go against him, so hopefully it will work.

Good going on the game. A draw is not as bad as being completely wiped out, which has occurred to me on a few occasions. I have also won destroying every enemy on the board a few times as well.

Daemons are a B**CH to go against with non GK armies, or really shooty armies with lots of template weapons like Guards or tau. Good going, and I think everyone pitched in to help you with the game. Especially the person who advised a mechanised assault.

Maybe you will not be so worried about facing them next time. It is all just for fun anyway, so enjoy the game even if you lose a battle now and then.

[Mr. Smith]

the mission ended up being capture and control and we got a draw. being meched up definitely helped. i was able to kill his daemon prince before he even took a shot, and was able to shoot down the masque before it did any damage.

Bonus points to daemonette666 for pointing out that the masque isn't an independent character, as he didn't realize this and was trying to plop it into a unit. If you hadn't mentioned it i wouldn't have known any better and would have had a hell of a time taking it down.

His soul grinder got to shoot a few times, but failed to wound or even glance a single thing before a land speeder snuck behind it and blew it up with a nicely placed krak missile.

The keeper was a B-itch though. That thing mowed through vehicles like they were made of cardboard. i shot the crap out of it the whole game, but was only able to take off two wounds due to him passing almost all it's saves

Just remember that you actually didn't draw, you actually helped great Tzeentch's all encompassing scheme. So always remember you never win against daemons, you just think you did.

Welcome of to the grim world of the 41st millennium, enjoy your stay.

[DarkLink]

Don't mention psycannons to me - OOOH they hurt.

I will never take daemons against Grey knights again if I can help it. Now that they have lost their versoin of the without number rule, I get slaughtered every time. Especially since the smug GK player I know uses 2 mystics in his Inquisitor's retinue when he plays against Daemons. The he targets my soul grinder, and Tzeentch troops to stop any ranged shooting at him.

I can not land close to him, and he just shoots up the remaining troops with psycannon and incinerators from cover, and then if I do get into close combat, I have usually lost my Daemonettes and Plague bearers by then, and I am at Init 1, and get wiped out. He takes as many template and blast weapons as he can.

I have worked out a CSM army to go against him, so hopefully it will work.

Good going on the game. A draw is not as bad as being completely wiped out, which has occurred to me on a few occasions. I have also won destroying every enemy on the board a few times as well.

Daemons are a B**CH to go against with non GK armies, or really shooty armies with lots of template weapons like Guards or tau. Good going, and I think everyone pitched in to help you with the game. Especially the person who advised a mechanised assault.

Maybe you will not be so worried about facing them next time. It is all just for fun anyway, so enjoy the game even if you lose a battle now and then.

At least he doesn't use Sanctuary. Against Daemons, it is literally the most broken thing in the entire game.

I will say, though, GKs can't handle Fatecrusher. Well, more they can't handle lots of Blood Crushers, but if a player does a good job at ensuring Fateweaver has a cover save then psycannons don't help much there.

[codiddy]

That's what psycannons are for:p


Yeah wish I could get those . . .



Maybe you will not be so worried about facing them next time. It is all just for fun anyway, so enjoy the game even if you lose a battle now and then.

Yeah the game was quite enjoyable, the guy was real nice. Definitely someone I would want to play again.

Thanks again for the advice everybody!