What were the Original names of Space Marine Legions pre- Primarchs?

[Daemonette666]

What were the original names for the 18 known legions? No info has ever been officially been published on the 2 missing legions / Primarchs as far as I know. Also what were their colours and emblems?

I vaguely remember that the Luna wolves legion was called another name which was published in one of the Horus Heresy novels. I can not remember if any of the other novel mentioned the names of other Legions.

I ask because I have a project I want to do painting a space marine chapter, or Chaos Space Marine Warband / Legion in the original the colours and Emblems of one of the founding legions.

[musical-fool]

Weren't they just numbered? i.e. the 1st legion --> Dark angels.

[Daemonette666]

Weren't they just numbered? i.e. the 1st legion --> Dark angels.
I remember that they were given names, as it mentions it in the Horus Heresy novels. I can not find all my Heresy novels, as the garage needs a clean up, and one of the packing boxes has most of my novels in it.

It was the luna wolves who they mentioned had another name before they were Luna Wolves. I think it might have been in the "Flight of the Eisenstein" because the old Space marine who was from Terra and on the EisenStein in the end of the novel says he was going to repaint his armour bac to the Luna Wolves colours or those of the ??? they were before that. Atleast thats what I remember. I have to find that novel.

[templarboy]

The Death Guard were called the Dusk Raiders I believe.

[Force21]

I think in Tales of Heresy

Angron(spell?) changed the name from Warhounds to World Eaters...


Ahhh where are them books....:confused:

[Mike X]

No info has ever been officially been published on the 2 missing legions / Primarchs as far as I know. Also what were their colours and emblems?

I've always wanted to know this. The Emperor created 20 Primarchs in total, and we all know that GW deliberately left two "voids" to be filled in by custom loyal and/or traitor Legions.

However, upon starting the Great Crusade, he still presumably had all 20 Legions at his command. So what were the two Primarchless Legions called? And, most importantly, what happened to the Legions themselves? We all know the Emperor "gave up" his search after finding 18 Primarchs, but what did he do with the two remaining Legions?

[Alvena]

one quick point: the lunar wolves is the old name for the sons of horus legion wich is the old name of the black legion.

[Xas]

one quick point: the lunar wolves is the old name for the sons of horus legion wich is the old name of the black legion.

but Lunar Wolves was the name the bore during the time they served with their primarch Horus.

actually they are a novelty as they are the only legion that has supposedly had four names in total:

1) unknown name before emperor finds horus
2) lunar wolves after horus is found
3) sons of horus after horus' promotion to warmaster
4) black legion after the heresy

[sebi81]

As far as I know only two pre-primarch names of legions are known:

The Death Guard was named Dusk Raiders and had a pale white armour with a bloodred right arm and shoulder pad.

The World Eaters were named Warhounds.

The names and colours of all other legions are not known. But many legions must have been renamed after finding their primarch, cause their name depends on something having to do with the primarch or his homeworld. (f.e. Alpha Legion, Salamanders, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Iron Hands)

[fuzzbuket]

about the 2 missing primarchs

1) the first is omegon
2) there was a cracked tank/ incubator so he dead.


sorted.

:P


(olso on lexmacium there was a chapter called desert lions who served on istvaan pacification?)

[UltramarineFan]

about the 2 missing primarchs

1) the first is omegon
2) there was a cracked tank/ incubator so he dead.


sorted.

:P


(olso on lexmacium there was a chapter called desert lions who served on istvaan pacification?)

Um..no Omegon is just Alpharius' twin, he is not one of the two missing primarchs, in fact only the Alpha Legion are even supposed to know that Alpherius has a twin.

[Gotthammer]

(olso on lexmacium there was a chapter called desert lions who served on istvaan pacification?)

That's from the old Robots article - it mentions the Chapter using a particular program for the maniples that ensured very low casualties. But it was written pretty early on so it's just name re-use or a later battle there vs heretics seeking some dark thingamy (though that's pure speculation).

[miteyheroes]

The 2 missing primarchs are covered briefly in "The Lightning Tower". Dorn is in a room with statues of all the primarchs, pondering the Heresy, and he considers if they should have learnt from the 2 seperate tragedies that claimed the 2 primarchs. This suggests the primarchs were lost pre-Heresy.

I suspect that at least 1 of them refused to acknowledge the Emperor when the Emperor visited?

As to what happened to their legions, that is an interesting question. I read a post somewhere which suggested the idea that the Ultramarines absorbed them (which explains why the UM were so large, and how they managed to create so many 2nd founding chapters).

[Daemonette666]

I've always wanted to know this. The Emperor created 20 Primarchs in total, and we all know that GW deliberately left two "voids" to be filled in by custom loyal and/or traitor Legions.

However, upon starting the Great Crusade, he still presumably had all 20 Legions at his command. So what were the two Primarchless Legions called? And, most importantly, what happened to the Legions themselves? We all know the Emperor "gave up" his search after finding 18 Primarchs, but what did he do with the two remaining Legions?
I have a theory on this. In a Warhammer 40K novel, a Chaos lord finds the location of one of two hidden gene seed storage facilities from a recently corrupted Adeptus Mechanicus Minor Hero level guy, and proceeds to raid the facility which is on a moon with no atmosphere. They enter, kill all the Adeptus Mechasnicus Adepts, and proceed to raid the place of its gene seed.

The novel described how the gene seed is stored as a room contains cryogenic chambers, each with a human male, only twice the size and width of a normal man. The Chaos Lord proceeds to consume the gene seed by eating his way cadavers/frozen bodies till he is full. The rest is taken back to a facility where it is put in either a Daemons ot daemon princes along with young male humans. These daemons gives birth to mostly mutants which are sent down a sort of mincer, and a few skinless Chaos Space Marines are created.

I believe these 2 hidden storage facilities contain the missing Space Marine legions.

It is only a theory.

Again I am remembering all this without the ablity to actually get my books out of the mess that if the garage.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I have the gis t of it from memory.
I think that this is an Iron Warriors novel, which is linked to an Ultramarines novel to complete the full story.

[Daemonette666]

Um..no Omegon is just Alpharius' twin, he is not one of the two missing primarchs, in fact only the Alpha Legion are even supposed to know that Alpherius has a twin.
Desert Lions - Istvaan Pacification. From that you could narrow down which Legions were part oif the forces in that arm of the great crusade, then go from there.

Omega was the Twin of Alpharius, you could not tell them apart, so I doubt he is the missing primarch. They would have used all the space marine from both of them to create one huge legion.

I remember the Horus caused one of the incubators to cracked, so that accounts for one atleast.

[fuzzbuket]

cracked glass = dead
desert lions = joe primarch/ unloyal primarch/ dead.

desert lions = legion II

if the gut in the glass is dead that means that he couldnt make a legion (wernt the legions part of the primachs gene seed so no gene seeed = no legion.)

desert lions could have also been a name for say; the blood angels? pre - primarch?

only more HH books will tell

WRITE FAStER ABNETT :P

[Bard of Twilight]

Well, when the loyalists of the Sons of Horus made their last stand against Horus, they were renamed Luna Wolves in order to defy Horus.So this could only mean that they were named like that even before Horus.

[The Mighty Git]

As for the two missing primarchs, I just read Daenyathos. It's kind of a prequel as to the Soul Drinkers series. He explained that the 18 brothers killed the 2 and used the genetic material in their legions. Could be the reason, then again(spoiler alert) Daenyathos was a heretical nutter.

[Gotthammer]

desert lions = legion II


Desert Lions = chapter mentioned once twenty years ago before the Heresy mythos was fully formed, so no.

[moondog]

i know that earlier in the fluf they dropped hints that Sigmar (of Warhammer Fantasy) was actually one of the lost prmarchs, as there have been hints that the warhammer fantasy world is located in the 4k galaxy, but is isolated by warp storms.

[erwos]

As for the two missing primarchs, I just read Daenyathos. It's kind of a prequel as to the Soul Drinkers series. He explained that the 18 brothers killed the 2 and used the genetic material in their legions. Could be the reason, then again(spoiler alert) Daenyathos was a heretical nutter.
Reminds me of the story of Joseph and his brothers in the bible. Maybe the other Primarchs were jealous that Primarch Joe got the rainbow-colored armor!

[Herald of Nurgle]

Reminds me of the story of Joseph and his brothers in the bible. Maybe the other Primarchs were jealous that Primarch Joe got the rainbow-colored armor!
I can't believe we didn't see it...

The Rainbow Warriors are legion 2!

[Gotthammer]

Taste the Painbow sucka!!!

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/Gotthammer/40k/patrol.jpg

[mathhammer]

Going to do this from memory cause I'm to lazy to pull all the books.

The space Marines were created by the Emperor to fight in the 200 years know as the "Unification Wars". You can gather from the fluff he got better at it as the wars continued. The one branch that appears is the "Lightning Warriors" in blue armor.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes

Find the story about the last chapel on earth.

The Emperor had all 20 legions created at the same time of the primarchs. So the missing 2 legions were fully formed before/or during the lose of the primarchs. The Thousand Sons books talks of the warriors for their chapter in great detail and what befall them.

So before the Primarchs there appear to be one Army (with maybe a few notable units) that became the core of the Adeptus Custodes and the knowledge to create the primarchs and the primarchs children. So technically the 20 legion format didn;t exist befor this point, however the common soldier had blue lightining armor so think ultramarine...

[Grailkeeper]

In Night hunter it specifically says that al of the primarchs landed on planets and 19 of them were found and raised by someone. Konrad curze is the exception here.

This means there is no chance that one of them starved to death as a child or had his capsule land in a sun or some other fate.

[Mike X]

As for the two missing primarchs, I just read Daenyathos. It's kind of a prequel as to the Soul Drinkers series. He explained that the 18 brothers killed the 2 and used the genetic material in their legions. Could be the reason, then again(spoiler alert) Daenyathos was a heretical nutter.

'Soul Drinkers' alone was a blight on the Space Marine fluff world, made possible by Ben Counter. If 'Daenythos' is written by the same man, I wouldn't hold a candle to its qualification of canon. And from the sound of it, it makes about as much sense as 'Soul Drinkers' did.


Going to do this from memory cause I'm to lazy to pull all the books.

The space Marines were created by the Emperor to fight in the 200 years know as the "Unification Wars". You can gather from the fluff he got better at it as the wars continued. The one branch that appears is the "Lightning Warriors" in blue armor.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes

Space Marines are Astartes. The warriors that fought in the Unification Wars were Adeptus Custodes (unrefined cousins of Astartes).

[Baron Spikey]

The Unification Wars warriors were proto-Astartes, not necessarily Custodes.

As far as we know only 3 Legions changed their names when they found their Primarch.

Dusk Raiders->Death Guard
Warhounds->World Eaters
The First Legion->Dark Angels (yes they were actually called the First Legion before they found the Lion)

[Mike X]

The Unification Wars warriors were proto-Astartes, not necessarily Custodes.

Proto-Astartes = Adeptus Custodes

The name "Proto-Astartes" actually says it. "Proto" is short for "prototype". The Custodes were the prototypes of Marines before the Emperor found a way to refine and mass-produce the Astartes forces.

[dvs1]

I have a theory on this. In a Warhammer 40K novel, a Chaos lord finds the location of one of two hidden gene seed storage facilities from a recently corrupted Adeptus Mechanicus Minor Hero level guy, and proceeds to raid the facility which is on a moon with no atmosphere. They enter, kill all the Adeptus Mechasnicus Adepts, and proceed to raid the place of its gene seed.

The novel described how the gene seed is stored as a room contains cryogenic chambers, each with a human male, only twice the size and width of a normal man. The Chaos Lord proceeds to consume the gene seed by eating his way cadavers/frozen bodies till he is full. The rest is taken back to a facility where it is put in either a Daemons ot daemon princes along with young male humans. These daemons gives birth to mostly mutants which are sent down a sort of mincer, and a few skinless Chaos Space Marines are created.

I believe these 2 hidden storage facilities contain the missing Space Marine legions.

It is only a theory.

Again I am remembering all this without the ablity to actually get my books out of the mess that if the garage.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I have the gis t of it from memory.
I think that this is an Iron Warriors novel, which is linked to an Ultramarines novel to complete the full story.

I think its more likely that this was one of the places where the Ad Mec kept the gene seed that they collect as a sample/tithe from each chapter regularly. My question is how come when the Space Pups refuse and destroy the envoy, a live and let live policy is established to prevent further bloodshed, but in the Astral Claws case it led to the second biggest astartes schism since the heresy. Damn favorites.

[Silver Drakes Legion]

Custodes are very different than astartes they have some similarities but Custodes were made during the war. The high and mighty Emperor wouldn't take the test subjects and make them his bodyguard. I mean the short story collection for space marines I forget which one plainly states they are not space marines. They were better and not just an improvement but different. Somewhat like comparing a grey knight and a space marine at least in fluff.

[Mike X]

Custodes are very different than astartes they have some similarities but Custodes were made during the war. The high and mighty Emperor wouldn't take the test subjects and make them his bodyguard. I mean the short story collection for space marines I forget which one plainly states they are not space marines. They were better and not just an improvement but different. Somewhat like comparing a grey knight and a space marine at least in fluff.

Most of the time in fluff they're referred to as "cousins" in process. They were different, because they don't have the same enhancements regular Astartes do, and the Emperor had to build them one batch at a time, rather than a ton at a time like the Astartes. But that's all part of the "Proto-Astartes" and "Astartes" thing. Everyone knows that when something is invented for the first time, it's the alpha model, which goes through tons of changes and testings. Astartes are more like the beta version. That's why they're so different. The Emperor tested on the Custodes until he got a formula right, then mass-created the Astartes.

[TheRedAngel]

What were the original names for the 18 known legions? No info has ever been officially been published on the 2 missing legions / Primarchs as far as I know. Also what were their colours and emblems?

I vaguely remember that the Luna wolves legion was called another name which was published in one of the Horus Heresy novels. I can not remember if any of the other novel mentioned the names of other Legions.

I ask because I have a project I want to do painting a space marine chapter, or Chaos Space Marine Warband / Legion in the original the colours and Emblems of one of the founding legions.



Only some are commented on in books like the Heresy series. I know the World Eaters legion was called the War Hounds before Angron took command, and they were more tactically based instead of bloodthirsty raged controlled monsters.

Horus' Legion was ORIGINALLY the Luna Wolves, and only became the Sons Of Horus after the emperor gave him the title of warmaster and left him in charge of the crusade to go back and rule the imperium from earth. They were retitled the Black Legion after Horus was killed. "In eternal memorial of the greatest visionary humanity had created".

All the loyalist Legions kept there old names and colours, though the "Traitor" legions changed some of theirs. For example, the pre-heresy Word Bearers had granite gray colored armor and their emblem was a book on fire, to symbolize the Word (of the emperor at that time) and its message spreading like fire and illuminating the ignorance of mankind. Their armor after the heresy is blood red with the screaming demon skull in flames, in honor of the true gods they discovered did exist in the warp and their commitment to spread the "true word". They kept the name as the side may have changed, but the original idea of breaking the ignorance of mankind remained.

The original World Eaters was pure white with blue stripes and accents to denote rank, though all followers of Khorne now have blood red armor regardless of legion, as the separation of soldiers is below the belief in the blood god.

Im not sure what the old Dark Angels colors or symbol was, but they changed after their primarch was found and took command, with the green for the forests of his homeworld Caliban and the winged sword as the symbol of him "knightly order" that he grew up with on that planet. ALSO note that the dark angels legion didnt fight the battle for terra as the legion was fighting itself at that point, which is usually missed by most. The "Interrogator Chaplains" are for any remaining "fallen angels" that survived the heresy and later years, and to track them down so the secret that the loyal dark angels legion is never commonly known as a group that was on the edge of siding with Horus.
The addition of the bone white colors for their Deathwing Company are a semi recent addition as well, and wouldnt be pre-heresy colors. The bone white was the funeral color of the culture, and a warrior only painted himself in white when he went to a battle he knew he would not return from, thus the terminators, who are only sent on the most dangerous missions, painted their armor the bone white color so that no matter where they fell, their souls were prepared for the afterlife.

The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Ravenguard, Space Wolves, and Iron Hands (which were almost exterminated by the traitor legions) kept their original colors and names throughout their history in the Imperium as a mark of honor to the veterans at the separating of the Legions into Chapters at the end of the heresy, the idea being no one man should hold such power again.
Some traitor legions, like the Word Bearers, kept their name because allegiances may have changed, but the mission of "enlightenment" was the same.
The Night Lords were "What the times demanded, the Legion as with its Primarch Konrad Curze, were the Emperor's loyal monsters. Created for a galaxy bound in fear to drive that same terror into her enemies". They retained the name as symbols because they still fought in the same way of terror tactics and frightening opponents into submission.
The Alpha Legion kept its colors and symbols, though there are varying stories of their actual allegiance, and if their (supposedly) twin primarchs are alive, dead, or otherwise. As Alpharius/Omegon's strength was always planning out ridiculously slow burning plans. So if they sided with chaos or are an entire legion of sleeper agents plotting the downfall of the traitor legions amongst them is still under debate in the higher ups of the Imperium, though the common consensus is that they are traitor monsters.

THE KEY LESSON that no "modern Imperial historian ever realizes or perhaps is allowed to publish is this : The old Legions were not the cause of the galactic civil war. Under the initial push of the Great Crusade from Terra under the Emperor, there was no division at all. The Primarchs taking command and bringing vastly differing cultural beliefs and ideals and their respective Legions mirroring them was." With the Emperors return to Terra and Horus taking control, all the differences made manifest without a higher authority to turn to for unification. "

The other thing if your trying to design a Pre-Heresy era army, the power armor of that time (the Mark I "Thunder Armor and the Mark II Crusade Armor) are closer looking to Berzerker and Chaos Marine armor, as they still wear the same gear from that time. The armor with all the bumps on the shoulders is the Mark IV i believe, as the Mark III was no different than the II. The bumpy shoulder plates of the "Heresy Pattern Mark IV Powered Armor" was because supply lines were cut during the war and the usual ceramite/adamantium wasnt always available depending on the location and allegiance of the factories in the area. Weaker materials were riveted together to produce something dependable but cheap to keep the war going on both side. No loyalist chapter keeps those suits in service because it is a reminder of bad day, and usually neither do the chaos marines for the same reason.

There are also no "new" suits of Terminator (Tactical Dreadnought Armor) produced in the 41st millenium. All the terminator suits are treasured by imperial and chaos worshiper alike because the technology to make them was destroyed during the heresy. Thats why only the best marines are even considered to wear them, and teleport beacons are used to not only deploy the elite soldiers, but to recover the suits if the warrior dies. They were distributed a couple years before Horus began the heresy, and (unfortunately for the Imperium, as Warmaster, his legion got them first and got the most of them, as did those that were near him (all the legions that sided with him).


Hope that long drawn history lesson was somewhat helpful and i didnt bore everyone with things they already knew !

[Duke]

where did you find that the ability to produce suits was lost? I thought it was just really really hard and expensive... But Im not perfect on fluff so I was wondering where you found that. Cause if they cannot make new suits how did all the new foundlings get suits? Im sure the existing chapters don't just say "here ya go, happy chapter founding, here are some really rare TDA suits."

Duke

[Lane]

The addition of the bone white colors for their Deathwing Company are a semi recent addition as well, and wouldnt be pre-heresy colors. The bone white was the funeral color of the culture, and a warrior only painted himself in white when he went to a battle he knew he would not return from, thus the terminators, who are only sent on the most dangerous missions, painted their armor the bone white color so that no matter where they fell, their souls were prepared for the afterlife.


There are also no "new" suits of Terminator (Tactical Dreadnought Armor) produced in the 41st millenium. All the terminator suits are treasured by imperial and chaos worshiper alike because the technology to make them was destroyed during the heresy. Thats why only the best marines are even considered to wear them, and teleport beacons are used to not only deploy the elite soldiers, but to recover the suits if the warrior dies. They were distributed a couple years before Horus began the heresy, and (unfortunately for the Imperium, as Warmaster, his legion got them first and got the most of them, as did those that were near him (all the legions that sided with him).



The bone white armor of the Deathwing is to honor the memory of the squad described in the Space Hulk: Deathwing game.

Terminator armor was originally modified from hazardous environment maintenance suits.

[Gotthammer]

The other thing if your trying to design a Pre-Heresy era army, the power armor of that time (the Mark I "Thunder Armor and the Mark II Crusade Armor) are closer looking to Berzerker and Chaos Marine armor, as they still wear the same gear from that time. The armor with all the bumps on the shoulders is the Mark IV i believe, as the Mark III was no different than the II. The bumpy shoulder plates of the "Heresy Pattern Mark IV Powered Armor" was because supply lines were cut during the war and the usual ceramite/adamantium wasnt always available depending on the location and allegiance of the factories in the area. Weaker materials were riveted together to produce something dependable but cheap to keep the war going on both side. No loyalist chapter keeps those suits in service because it is a reminder of bad day, and usually neither do the chaos marines for the same reason.

Not quite. Mk4 was being introduced to replace 2/3 (3 being the 'heavy' version of 2 for assaults and tunnel fighting) and had mostly gone to the legions that turned traitor, but was not fully issued. Mk4 is still regarded as one of the best suits designed (source: IA10). Mk5 was a stop-gap using some of the mk4 and terminator tech, but simplified to use the stockpiles of mk 2/3 parts as mk4 needed specialised components that were is short supply. Mk 5 is still in use by some (though others shun it), with those Chapters liking its ruggedness and ease of repair (source: IA10, the tac marine sprue, every mention of the armour ever).

Mk 6 was the new suit to be built after the mk4 project was scrapped and the heresy was well underway. They came online during the Solar campaign, with the forces of Horus capturing the martian production facilities as they advanced (an interesting contradiction, with Mars devolving into civil war at the outbreak of the heresy, though I don't suppose the Emperor would let it sit that way for seven years). Mk7 is the improved mk6, rolling out during the Luna campaign and the battle for Terra


So you have:

Mk1 - Thunder Armour - Unification wars, Luna Conquest, ceremonial duties only after the crusade started.
Mk2 - Crusade Armour - Great Crusade to Heresy
Mk3 - Iron Armour - Mid Crusade to Heresy and beyond (specialist heavy assault armour developed during fighting in core worlds and for boarding actions)
Mk4 - Maximus Armour - Late Crusade to Heresy (project scrapped halfway by loyalists due to scarcity of parts and materials)
Mk5 - Heresy Armour - Early to late Heresy (upgraded and simplified using easily repairable and obtainable parts, uses a lot of Mk2/3 components)
Mk6 - Corvus Armour - Very Late Heresy - More easily built and maintained than Mk4, better quality than Mk5.
Mk7 - Eagle Armour - Very Very Late Heresy - Further improved Mk6.

[deagle]

Don't forget Mk8 which appeared during 2nd edition but didn't quite make it in the change from metal to plastic....
It featured a high collar to protect the neck, modified 'ear' sections, a covered plate over the stomach cables and extra armour over the inner heel. Obviously a post Heresy design.

[Laodamia]

Im not sure what the old Dark Angels colors or symbol was, but they changed after their primarch was found and took command, with the green for the forests of his homeworld Caliban and the winged sword as the symbol of him "knightly order" that he grew up with on that planet.


I am pretty sure this statement is incorrect. The dark green colour for this chapter was only introduced after the HH. In fact, before the Heresy, the chapter's colour was jet black (but the chapter symbol was the same). After the HH and the breaking of the DA into second founding chapters, the only company that kept the legion's original colours was the Ravenwing (2nd company), as their role is to hunt down the traitors that betrayed their own primarch, just like the heresy-era DA that were forced to kill their own brothers on Caliban.


There are also no "new" suits of Terminator (Tactical Dreadnought Armor) produced in the 41st millenium. All the terminator suits are treasured by imperial and chaos worshiper alike because the technology to make them was destroyed during the heresy.


In fact, the fluff is quite contradictory when it talks about termy armour. Some sources say that the knowledge to produce terminator armour was completely lost during the HH, or during the millenia that followed. Other sources say that this knowledge is still partially kept by the adeptus mechanicus, thus allowing the production of precious few numbers of new suits or armor components.
In fact, at least a few forge worlds must have kept the knoledge to build terminator armour. For instance, Mars produced the entirely new grey knights' terminator armours' design after the horus heresy, and it still continues to produce and improve terminator armours for the 666th chapter.
In addition, it would be unlikely that the imperium was still able to equip its SM's first companies with termy suits ten millenia after losing the knowledge to build these suits.
Hence, a few forge worlds have probably kept the knowledge to build termy suits.

[Daemonette666]

I think its more likely that this was one of the places where the Ad Mec kept the gene seed that they collect as a sample/tithe from each chapter regularly. My question is how come when the Space Pups refuse and destroy the envoy, a live and let live policy is established to prevent further bloodshed, but in the Astral Claws case it led to the second biggest astartes schism since the heresy. Damn favorites.
In the novel, they specifically state that the genetic material is actually humanoids, larger than a normal human. A second theory is that If the 2 missing primarchs were killed by their brothers for reasons no one has gone into yet, then they could have put the bodies of those spacemarine legions in the two AD Mech facilities to keep the legions from revolting against brother marines.

[HsojVvad]

ALSO note that the dark angels legion didnt fight the battle for terra as the legion was fighting itself at that point, which is usually missed by most.

This is so wrong. You have missed it. The Dark Angles did not take part at the Battle for Terra because they were on there way to Terra to fight. They were with the Space Wolves, side by side they were.

They way you said it, made them out to be evil. Then that would mean the Space Wovles were bad as well since they were not there as well. What about the Ultrmarines? They were not even on there way to Terra from what I know of. They were to busy in there sector of space. So for you to say what you did for the Dark Angels is wrong.

Most of us did not miss it. We know the DA were on there way. It was Horous and his cunning planning that got the DA and the rest of the SM scatterted so they were no where near Terra for the Battle.

[Absolon]

This is so wrong. You have missed it. The Dark Angles did not take part at the Battle for Terra because they were on there way to Terra to fight. They were with the Space Wolves, side by side they were.

They way you said it, made them out to be evil. Then that would mean the Space Wovles were bad as well since they were not there as well. What about the Ultrmarines? They were not even on there way to Terra from what I know of. They were to busy in there sector of space. So for you to say what you did for the Dark Angels is wrong.

Most of us did not miss it. We know the DA were on there way. It was Horous and his cunning planning that got the DA and the rest of the SM scatterted so they were no where near Terra for the Battle.

As has been clearly stated the DA only missed the battle for Terra because the Chaos gods were slowing the DA and Wolves travel to Terra among some other inter legion distractions.

On the question of the change in armor color as we will see in future DA books. The DA changed to the dark green armor to represent Caliban just before they deployed to fight thier wayward brothers. The Lion wanted his troops to be able to determine who was on whos side as the forces became entangled.

The bone color for the deathwing came long after the HH and was done to honor members of the DW who died freeing the people of the Plains World from a genestealer cult.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Sheesh, you are all SO wrong about all this guff...let me put you all straight...

Missing Primarchs - Clive Threlfall, Primarch of the Cheese Rangers was killed by an overactive thyroid gland.

Chapter Names Pre-Crusade - Many names were used prior to settling on the ones we know now. Initially, the Emperor let the marines choose their own, but he had to step in and make them be sensible. Here's a list: -

Space Wolves - The Dog's Bollocks
Ultramarines - Supercool Funk Warriors
Word Bearers - Hallelujah Monks
Dark Angels - Boogie Knights
Blood Angels - Twilight Paladins
Death Guard - known only as 'Pack it in you dirty buggers!'
White Scars - Kubla Khan Motorcycle Club
Imperial Fists - The Rampant Fisters
World Eaters - Powder Puff Marines
Iron Hands - Steptoe and Sons
Iron Warriors - Rag and Bone Men
Alpha Legion - they wouldn't tell anyone
Emperor's Children - Superfly Pimp *** *****es
Thousand Sons - Blaine's Boys

Probably missing some here. The Custodes are better than Astartes.


And in all seriousness, the Mk 8 Armour was known as Errant armour...

[Laodamia]

I love this post, you should have put it in the W40K humour thread!
:D

[fuzzbuket]

too funny :D you win ((infinity-1)/0) internets!

[Ulfar]

Hate to throw a wrench out there, but the dark angels are traitors "the fallen" were the loyalists and that is why the dark angels are chasing "the fallen."
And the space wolves were standing on the side lines to see who would win and jump on the band wagon.

[Gotthammer]

Descent of Angels is very clear that the fallen are the traitors.

[Laodamia]

I second Gotthammer. It is pretty clear that the fallen were traitors to the emperor. They were not even "confused good guys" who turned traitors for the sake of the Imperium; they willingly abandonned their allegiance to the Emperor to join the forces of Chaos.

[Demonus]

Hate to throw a wrench out there, but the dark angels are traitors "the fallen" were the loyalists and that is why the dark angels are chasing "the fallen."
And the space wolves were standing on the side lines to see who would win and jump on the band wagon.

exactly, Lionel Johnson waited to see which side won before he conveniently made it to Terra, the Fallen Angels were not the traitors here. those that believe they are are just sheep following the lies of Johnson.

As far as the 2 missing Primarchs go, I agree with an earlier poster that it has been eluded to that they were destroyed by the other 18 as an example, most likely for rejecting the Emperor when he came to reclaim them as his sons. I believe they were even last mentioned in the First Heretic book, by Magnus when speaking with Lorgar.

[Pendragon38]

I think one of the missing Primarchs is a Squat if you think about it...... why not it all here say any ways

[Laodamia]

As far as the 2 missing Primarchs go, I agree with an earlier poster that it has been eluded to that they were destroyed by the other 18 as an example, most likely for rejecting the Emperor when he came to reclaim them as his sons. I believe they were even last mentioned in the First Heretic book, by Magnus when speaking with Lorgar.

I second that. In fact, I could make up my own theory for what hapened to at least one of the legions and their primarch.
(Spoilers)
In "Propero Burns", it is said that each of the primarch was created with a purpose (heir to the throne, army commander, missionary, etc...) and that Leman Russ and his legion's purpose was to be the emperor's executionners. A Legion that could do what no other legion could (or accept to) do.
And actually, at the end of the book, after the sacking of prospero, the reader sees Russ discussing with the skjald of the third company, and here is what we discover:

Skald:"There's a first time for everything.[...] Like... Astartes fighting Astartes?"
Russ:"That?" He laughs, but it is a sad sound. "No. That's not unprecedented."

It sounds like the sacking of prospero was not the first time the Space Wolves had to destroy another legion.

[Chuck777]

GW has intentionally seeded the lore of 40k with many different and oft conflicting stories as to what happened to the two legions that were erased.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I still reckon that Omegon is counted as a seperate Primarch. Good shout re: Prospero burns - I totally want to know about that, but I guess planting these literary seeds means possible miniature ranges in the future - GW are sewing the seeds of commerce.

[Crae]

I second that. In fact, I could make up my own theory for what hapened to at least one of the legions and their primarch.
(Spoilers)
In "Propero Burns", it is said that each of the primarch was created with a purpose (heir to the throne, army commander, missionary, etc...) and that Leman Russ and his legion's purpose was to be the emperor's executionners. A Legion that could do what no other legion could (or accept to) do.
And actually, at the end of the book, after the sacking of prospero, the reader sees Russ discussing with the skjald of the third company, and here is what we discover:

Skald:"There's a first time for everything.[...] Like... Astartes fighting Astartes?"
Russ:"That?" He laughs, but it is a sad sound. "No. That's not unprecedented."

It sounds like the sacking of prospero was not the first time the Space Wolves had to destroy another legion.

OR he might just reference his fight with Lionel primarch of the Darkangels or the istavaan Betrayal !? :)

[Daemonette666]

Maybe one of the lost Primarchs was really a daughter, and the other Primarchs killed her after they had a fight over who had her affections. That would be why we do not see any female space marines . LOL I have started the arguement mill haven't I? LOL

[FastEd]

GW has intentionally seeded the lore of 40k with many different and oft conflicting stories as to what happened to the two legions that were erased.

For instance there is a story (somewhere, damned if I remember) about Horus moving back in time (with the help of the Chaos Gods) right before the beginning of the Heresy and killing one of the missing two in his status pod on some planet while uttering something about him being the only one what would stop his plan from the start, etc. etc. Though, the story is purposely ambiguous about if he actually did go back in time or if he was hallucinating.



I still reckon that Omegon is counted as a seperate Primarch. Good shout re: Prospero burns - I totally want to know about that, but I guess planting these literary seeds means possible miniature ranges in the future - GW are sewing the seeds of commerce.

That's not actually how the time of HH writers work on stuff. In fact they admit to having meetings without the GW staff that are meant to manage them in quasi-secret, which apparently their Black Library handlers don't really appreciate.

[Baron Spikey]

For instance there is a story (somewhere, damned if I remember) about Horus moving back in time (with the help of the Chaos Gods) right before the beginning of the Heresy and killing one of the missing two in his status pod on some planet while uttering something about him being the only one what would stop his plan from the start, etc. etc. Though, the story is purposely ambiguous about if he actually did go back in time or if he was hallucinating.
That was in False Gods but you've gotten some things wrong- Horus doesn't kill one of the missing Primarchs and he doesn't mention anything about him being the only one who could stop his plan.



That's not actually how the time of HH writers work on stuff. In fact they admit to having meetings without the GW staff that are meant to manage them in quasi-secret, which apparently their Black Library handlers don't really appreciate.
They meet up at the Black Library Head Quarters to have their discussions- plus they have to run everything by the BL Editors so even if they came up with an idea amongst themselves they'd still have to get it vetted by the BL staff.

[FastEd]

Was it False Gods? I barely remember it. What did happen then? I'm all sorts of confused. I sear he was the one who broke the pod...assuming he wasn't tripping 7 sorts of balls at the time.

They do indeed meet up at BL HQ, along with various pubs. Sure they have to run things by the editors, however that doesn't mean they deal with their handlers all the time, nor does GW sit around saying "find a way to fit this new thing into your book". Listened to interviews with Abnett and one of the BL directors/editors about this very subject. Wish I could remember the BL guys name though, makes me feel like an *** not being able to at least cite him.

[Baron Spikey]

Was it False Gods? I barely remember it. What did happen then? I'm all sorts of confused. I sear he was the one who broke the pod...assuming he wasn't tripping 7 sorts of balls at the time. He does hit one of the lost Primarchs tanks and puts a dent in it but that's pretty much it.


They do indeed meet up at BL HQ, along with various pubs. Sure they have to run things by the editors, however that doesn't mean they deal with their handlers all the time, nor does GW sit around saying "find a way to fit this new thing into your book". Listened to interviews with Abnett and one of the BL directors/editors about this very subject. Wish I could remember the BL guys name though, makes me feel like an *** not being able to at least cite him.
Maybe GW doesn't say 'add this' but they have told the authors in the past to 'take that out'. (case in point- Titanicus, GW told Dan to change the enemy race, so he used Chaos as his 2nd choice).

[Daemonette666]

Sounds like this has gone onto a discussion as to what happed to the 2 missing primarchs. What I wanted to know as per the Thread Titler is to get the names of the original legions pre-Heresy, pre- Primarchs.

I wanted to get some idea of their colour schemes and icon/symbols,. With this information I intended to build a force of Chaos Space Marine Renegades painted and set up as renegades who got lost in the warp and have repainted their armour to its original legion colours and name.

So far from feedback I know the DeathGuard were called the Dusk Raiders and had off-white armour with the left arm and shouder pad in red. The World Eaters were called the Warhounds, and may or may not have had the white armour with blue acruments they wore when they were called the world eaters pre-heresy.

No-one has provided any proof about any of the other legions pre-primarch. As to pre--heresy where the legions have met up with their primarchs there is a lot more info, and a lot of speculation about the 2 missing legions and their primarchs.

I guess this thread is completed unless someone has anything more on the colour schemes, mane and symbols of the other legions pre-Primarch.

[Baron Spikey]

Damn sorry.

Dark Angels were called The First Legion, didn't have all the Knightly trappings (but were still armoured in black) that they adopted when they became the DA.

Word Bearers were called the Imperial Heralds, not entirely sure how they differed.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

The Emperor's real name is Lewis.

[Daemonette666]

The Emperor's real name is Lewis.
LOL,

I thought it was GEORGE - because George is my friend. I will love him and hug him and I will call him George.

[Daemonette666]

Slow reader or just very busy with work and painting projects for upcoming Apocalypse match, either way, I have just about finished reading the First Heretic, and it mentions the Word Bearers were called the Imperial Heralds.

It alos mentions that the Emperor ordered his sons to kill their 2 missing brothers , and it hints at Russ having done the job. The surviving Space Marines are then moved into the Ultra Marines - aka Smurfs - ranks to bolster and double their numbers.

It gives the reason why the Word Bearers hate the Smurfs so much - They stood beside the Emperor while their Legion and Primarch were shamed by the Emperor.

So we have another lost name for the pre- Primarch legion names.