What does this say about us?

[HsojVvad]

I do not know how to say this. So please bear with me. When I play 40K with my son, I sometimes have to put beautiful rainbows and unicorns and care bears so to say, to the 40K universe is not so bleak to him.

I do not want him to know about mass murder and extinctions of planets just because a few deamons were there. I don't want him to know how the Emperor just murdered people because they didn't want to join him.

So this got me thinking that we are playing a game that is worse than Hitler, Stalin and numerous other people in the world we know that committed atrocities and what not. We actually have alot of these atrocities going in the world today.

Bascially SM are no better than the SS what they did for Hitler. So why is it ok that we play with these units who by today standards are horrible people and we dispise and loathe. Why is it ok to pretend it's ok and play with it?

What does this speak about our character? We will denounce anyone who glorifies the ****s and what they did, but we turn around and play with the same equivlient plastic toy soldiers ala SM or anything with the Imperium.

Does this make us hipocrits? It's ok to play like that but not to say it? Yes I know its the 40K univers and it is grim, but what is the difference from playing SM who fight for the Emporer who was just a Dictator who slaughtered million or even billions who did not join him and fallow his way and someone who plays with **** toys and pretends he is taking over the world?

I don't know, maybe I am doing too much thinking today and I just feel ashamed a bit today for playing overglorified **** type characters.

What do you guys think?

[Lerra]

I think it's pretty clear that everyone in the 40k universe is a "bad guy". Even the "good guy" armies like Space Marines and Tau are, at best, less evil than the other options.

The ethics get a bit murky if you're dealing with children who may not be able to separate reality from fiction, or may think that the actions of the space marines are good by real-world standard, etc. But if they're old enough to understand that everyone in this game is a bad guy, I don't see a big problem with it. Children start learning about Hitler, genocide, mass murders, etc. in middle school. I remember reading first-person accounts of the Holocaust, complete with descriptions of rotting corpses, in 5th grade as assigned reading. Kids know about evil, even if they don't fully understand it yet.

You could even use 40k as a teaching tool. "Do you think what happened here was good, or bad? Why would we never do something like this in the real world?" I don't think there is anything wrong with playing an evil army as long as you recognize that they are evil.

[HsojVvad]

You just made me remember something Lerra. It's not so bad that the 40K universe is bad, but I am thinking should GW really be marketing this to such a young crowd? I know we should never forget what happened, and 40K is a good reminder of the attocities that Man has done in our real past.

But, should 8 year olds, be learning this at such a young age? I know it's up to the parents to teach their kids, but I do not see GW giving out pamphlets out to parents who do not know the 40K history. To them there is no history and it's plastic toy soldiers.

Just imgaine you walk into a store and you see a bunch of young kids under 10 playing miniture with ****s and saying how cool it is to be a **** and wish I was like a **** with a storm bolter, wouldn't that be cool? That is what I have a problem with I guess.

But I feel better now that I read your post. Thank you.

[DarkAngelHopeful]

I don't have any children, yet. However, I think when I do have children I am going to do my best to figure out what is age appropriate for them. I'm not insinuating that you don't, or that anyone on BoLS doesn't either. Moreover, I started playing 40k when I was 16. I felt like it was age appropriate for me at the time. Since all people are different in the maturing process, I plan on playing warhammer with my kids when I think they are ready. I also plan on instilling what I think are good values and morals into them as they grow, so when they do read the fluff for 40K they will hopefully understand that it's just a story and that they should treat it as such.

That said, I see the similarities with what you have said in 40k, but I don't really associate the two. I simply think of 40k as fictitious and leave it at that.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

[MarneusCalgar]

Man, I agree with you but...

Just relax, it´s just a game!!

The reality is always worse than some of the fictions... Just tell your son the good parts of the hobby: loyalty, respect between battle brothers, personal achievements, and forget the bad things

[Nabterayl]

I do not know how to say this. So please bear with me. When I play 40K with my son, I sometimes have to put beautiful rainbows and unicorns and care bears so to say, to the 40K universe is not so bleak to him.
It sounds like what you're saying is you're trying to make the game age-appropriate for your son, which is totally cool by me.

I agree with what MarneusCalgar said - the key is to find the lessons you want to teach. I started playing World War II board games with my father when I was only six years old, which could have brought us smack against the National Socialist issue - but it didn't. When we talked about the history of the German forces I (or he) was playing we talked about fighting for one's home and family, the honor of professional soldiering, and how a good commander looks out for the men under his command. In fact one of the best wargaming lessons my dad ever taught me was when he reminded me that my Germans had clearly lost the battle to hold this town, and maybe we should play the rest of the scenario seeing how many men I could safely get off the board.

I think you can take a similar approach to 40K. While it's true that every army is the bad guy, it's also true that every army has at least something positive about it. Space marines may be callous fascist self-important pricks, but they also believe in sacrificing everything they have for the greater good and the sacred bond of esprit de corps. Orks are only savage and bloodthirsty from the human point of view - from the orky point of view they're just fun-loving frat boys or rowdy football fans.

I think there's plenty of positive to focus on in this universe, until you judge your child is old enough to learn about the grimmer parts of the universe - and maybe that can be a good springboard to help them think seriously about how even the best people have their dark sides, and not even the worst people are wholly evil.

[DrLove42]

I think kids are getting far worse out of video games these days that are more immersive and playing into the roles of good and evil. And trust me when i say kids play video games far above their level.

40K as a universe of darkness is a story with less immersion. And i don't know how many kids read the full fluff like us "older generation" players do. To a lot of young'uns don't see it as a story, but as a game, which is why they have no problems playing constant battles of space marines vs space marines

[CitizenZero]

I started playing Warhammer 40k when I was 11-12...and while I played Orks, at the time the Space Marines were the "good guys."

By the time I got old enough to notice that what they were doing wasn't so black and white, I was old enough to form my own opinion of right and wrong...it wasn't as though my idea of Space Marines had actually shaped this opinion.

I feel as though we impart our own morality into the game, there are many Orc or Tyranid players who find things about those armies they relate to...doing it with Space Marines is even easier, as they at least were humans once...

Like the best writing and art, the 40k universe allows you to question how you feel about these circumstances...it also has a lot of parallels to what's happening in our world currently. At the end of the day, it's entertainment, it's science fiction, and it's dark. If anything, I personally see it as "If you pervert your ideals and attempt to lord over all that you see, you are condemning yourself to an eternal war."

Oh, and also: Would this question also apply to people who play the Germans in Flames of War?

[UltramarineFan]

I watched my first 15 rated film when I was 9 I think. It really comes down to the individual and how they are able to seperate fiction from reality. In the end I always view this as a fictional game with fictional ideas, yes I think it's fun but I'm in a generation and at an age where all games involving war are fun(ie male teenager in the 21st century). My personal opinion is that humans are evil by nature and that it is something we have to overcome and so all these things I read in the 40k universe about mass genocide do not phase me in the slightest. However I would never advocate genocide in the real world because I know that it would affect real people with real feelings and real families and I know that it would be wrong. I still get kicks out of killing plastic soldiers by the dozen but understand that it should never happen in the real world.

[Renegade]

OK, I am going to make a few assumptions.

First, I am going to assume that you are city born and/or Bred. Does your kid know how his food gets to the table? How that food is kept and killed, or the toil to grow it? Hmm..?

Secondly, I am going to assume that he is your first.

Thirdly, I guess you think that humans are all nice a cuddly and its the 'other folk' that are bad, though they are humans to...

I am surprised that some on here didn't learn about the ****s till middle school, but oh hum.

Probably starting from the loyalty and protectors of mankind is a good place to start, but I don't think you should miss out totally the negative stuff, the bloody battles, treason and plot. He could get worse from watching the news or reading a history book. You could also use it as a tool to get him more interested in history, you'd be surprised how kids are drawn to blood and gore.

Dude, I think you fuss to much.

[Nabterayl]

He could get worse from watching the news or reading a history book. You could also use it as a tool to get him more interested in history, you'd be surprised how kids are drawn to blood and gore.
Man, if my eight year old was learning about how awful human beings can be to each other through voluntarily watching the news or reading history books, I'd be ecstatic :p

But seriously, there's no virtue in learning about the dark side of humanity for its own sake. In order to make that a worthwhile experience you need context, which is really what HsojVvad is thinking about, right?

[Leez]

What does this speak about our character? We will denounce anyone who glorifies the ****s and what they did, but we turn around and play with the same equivlient plastic toy soldiers ala SM or anything with the Imperium.


It's says we're human. We need not go to the allegory that is 40K violence and hive city life, plenty of WWII table top games out there. We have a very long history in taking great profit and/or joy from the real and/or portrayed brutality inflicted upon others. 40K is just a be easier to swallow since it's purely fictional, WWII games are merely representative, WWII itself is historical, the warlike activities on a national scale in, say, Sudan or the economic ones in China because they are out of view. Merely two examples amongst many.

Asking why we're okay with fictional violence and slave labour seems silly when we're clearly okay with very real violence and exploitation.

Here's a very loaded question: What have you ever done, actually done not wished nor felt, to impact the lives of those suffering in the real world?

Here's my answer: Yesterday I bought some pencil leads and some undershirts, made in china. In all likelihood I financially supported the slave labour of people aged 4-60 yesterday. Nothing I can think of of much consequence did anything to aid the people in Sudan and surrounding countries, well there was that concert once, a while back, that was a one off that stroked the ego. And yet tomorrow I'll go and get some socks since they come on sale, move past the red cross donation box, and likely pop in to the GW store to place an order for unit.

Children learn lessons well even when we don't think we're teaching them anything, the value of our dollar compared to their lives.

[Renegade]

Have you tried pointing out the hempfantango, the wars and plague? Knights and stuff is an other way.Me folks just used to turn off the TV and the only recourse was a book.

[Just_Me]

While I'm sure the first impulse for many people to your post is "it's just a game, don't worry so much," I think your concerns deserve a serious response. While I do not believe that any tabletop game, story, or video game is capable of destroying a child's moral center and breeding a generation of sociopaths (as our society would have us believe), the fact is that some things are simply not age appropriate to children, if only because they are not equipped to tackle the concepts of moral ambiguity. There is a reason that the 40k universe is called the "grim darkness of the far future" (aka the "grimdark"), it is simply not a nice place.

To me, the universe constitutes a series of object lessons on both the failings and nobility of humanity as a whole, which at times borders on satire or dark comedy. In fact, I think the entire setting is more intellectually mature than most people give it credit for and is geared more towards an adult age group than children, the problem is our society seems to have a problem with the idea of grown people playing games, so it really has to be marketed towards younger age groups that will (hopefully) grow into it. The 40k universe throws out questions about moral and social issues thick and fast and pulls no punches; just how far can one take ethical utilitarianism before it becomes a mere tool for the justification of evil? at what point does religious faith become the sort of fanaticism and zealotry that feeds atrocities? can moral relativism be applied to any culture? at what point does bureaucracy stop serving a purpose and become an end in and of itself? why is it important for there to be a separation of church and state and what can happen when one does not exist? And these are only a handful of examples.

In contrast, it also presents the concepts of personal sacrifice for the good of others (the Astartes willingly sacrifice any chance of a normal life so that they can protect faceless innocents who they will never meet and will never probably never know of their deeds), courage in the face of adversity (guardsmen face truly horrific enemies who completely outclass them with nothing but a lasgun and a lot of guts), and the ability of human ingenuity to surmount any obstacle (a galaxy spanning empire that has mastered space flight and FTL transport and communication). In short, everything in the 40k universe is exaggerated, both good and bad, and there are no easy black and white comparisons.

Not knowing the age of your son, I wouldn't know it he is ready to tackle these sorts of questions (and I would not presume to offer parenting advice to you as his father), but perhaps as some have already suggested the issues you see in the setting could present him with opportunities for intellectual exercise. Just because something is unpleasant does not mean that it has no value, and if he has a solid sense of self identity already and a basic understanding of good and evil I would not worry that a simple hobby will debase them.

[fuzzbuket]

parents these days are forgetting about age raitings on videio games


i know kids as young as 6 playind cod 6 unsupervised

i think the thing isnt "what it is" its the approach

most of my mates who are COD addicts probably wouldnt care if they shot someone and only 1 knows what its like to fire a gun

it not

the gaurd are happy little rainbows

its

the imperial guard do horrible things, but they have to to save humanity ^_^


im under 16 and have just watched /read all of the hellsing ova/manga, this is a classicc example its nice on the outside but think about it and its a lot worse :P i was shocked but thought about evil.

many would watch it dissmis it as a kiddes comic and not think it was that bad.

/ pointless rant over

-fuzz :P

[BlindGunn]

I think the issue isn't identifying what's morally right and wrong information to expose a child to but at what time having the younger generation becoming exposed to the information and how to explain it. Also, whether we're leading by good example playing these games in the first place or are we promoting that which we otherwise would condemn. It's a struggle and I think I understand what HsojVvad is trying to say.

To me, it comes down to comprehenssion. If a child can understand and comprehend that this is all "make-believe" and that we don't actually promote some of the things in these games (and in fact disagree with them), then I see it as ok. If a child cannot comprehend the difference, it becomes a difficult decission.

Kids will play "War" or "Gangsters" or "Cowboys and Indians" or "Ninja Assaissin" from the time they can pick up a stick or a toy shaped like a weapon. At that age - usually there's no "moral" there, just venting of hyper activity. There's no real comprehension for the child.

The facts come a little later but the comprehension may take some time, or maybe a special event before it truly registers. As Adults, I think we need to evaluate when we thing the children is ready for more information and give it properly, then be prepared to discuss it on a peer-to-peer level. We need to prepare children for real life and that will mean exposing them to some pretty ugly concepts and truths at some time.

HsojVvad - You need to evaluate the situation and decided whether your child is handling the game and concepts well. If they are, you can proceed to continue to play and expand on those moral discussions and use wargaming as a tool possibly to help show your beliefs. If you find you're in moral conflict with wargaming, you need to talk it over with your child, family and friends. If you feel that this is still promoting those things you despise and/or you think it's affecting your children in an adverse way, maybe you need to take a break while. If you do so, be sure to explain it to your child in terms they can understand. To just yank it away and say "You can't play anymore because it's BAD!" it will generate a lot of resentment later. Personally, I had problems with games including Demons and Chaos Gods (strict Christian upbringing), spent a lot of time with that one. Now I play both Fantasy and 40k.

I like to use the excuse of wargaming as a "Venting of my frustrations and anger in a politically correct, lawful and non-destructive manner". But that's just me! ;)

Good Luck!

[entendre_entendre]

As long as you, the parent, are there to guide him through 40k, there will be far fewer problems than if you left him unsupervised. As long as you are present to answer any questions he may have about why this or that is happening, he'll be far better off than letting him run amok through the darkest bits of 40k lore.

An alternative solution could be to minimalize the fluff to simple concepts. I.e. Space marines/guard = defenders of humanity, Orks = guys who like things to go BOOM, etc.

[Denzark]

You asked what I think, herewith. I am a father - I think you have introduced your son too young. You mentioned in another thread he started when he was 3! 3, by the Emperor's bones! And you wonder why you have to have rainbows and care bears?

This game is about warfare. Now I was playing toy soldiers with my old man from about 7 upwards. I remember distinctly claiming to like the germans best, because they had the 'coolest uniforms' and mostly machine guns, versus the rifle toting tommies. It was some point around them that the old man told me we were fighting them because they were the bad guys - without too much details.

Quite simply try and build some lego with your fella or play with toy cars - not ARMIES who all have WEAPONS to KILL MAIM BURN each other with (clue is in the words).

As for 40K fluff and morality vs real life totalitarians, perhaps the fluff justifies it to some extent - humanity has evolved (psykers) the warp is full of brain sucking nasties and the only thing saving mankind is the emperors way of life. Hence totalitarian state = survival of the species or no emperor = extinction - hence space marines are just survival of the fittest, and as opposed to Nazzies trying to create master race, the marines do protect the weakest - althought the genetic capabilites are there to enhance not everyone gets it.

Just find some fluff about how happy happy joy joy the Ultramarine homeworlds are and you will feel a bit better about it all.

[HsojVvad]

I am doing what you guys are saying, I am keeping the very dark stuff out. He thinks the SM, specifiaclly the DA as the good guys. In time when he is ready, I will explain to him the reall fluff of 40K but right now like many have said, he can't comprihend it.

When a min looses his last wound, he dosn't "die" but falls unconsicous. Some do die, but not every single mini. He did aske once how come everyone dies, and I say they dont. I said some die, but others get knocked out or just can't make it because they are so tired. I find it funny when I forget and I said I killed him, he goes "DADDY you got him, he not dead yet LOL."

Did he start to young? Yes. It wasn't like we played every day, but he saw Daddy paint some minis and he wanted to do it. We actually just started playing a few weeks ago, but we painted on and off 6 years ago.

Thanks guys for the comments. I feel better now. I see keeping things from him is not so bad and I can introduce to him things slowly.

[warpcrafter]

I am of the opinion that small children should not get involved in 40K. Find them some appropriate board game to play, and don't let them guilt you into playing with dad's toys.

[DarkLink]

parents these days are forgetting about age raitings on videio games


As if anyone but the overzealous moral guardians actually care


I am of the opinion that small children should not get involved in 40K. Find them some appropriate board game to play, and don't let them guilt you into playing with dad's toys.

Yeah, there are much cheaper ways of entertaining children

[Aldramelech]

Well, we can get children into a hobby where they learn about good sportsmanship, modelmaking, artistic talent, social skills, reading (and I don't care about the subject matter, The Lord of the Rings was shoved down kids throats for years and do you know how hard it is to get kids to read anything these days?), manners and the ability to THINK.

Or we can let them out to steal cars, happy slap pensioners, vandalize property, get their 13 year old girlfriends pregnant and shoplift everything in sight. Extreme? Nothing in a 40k novel is half as bad as what happens on a council estate in Nottingham on a Saturday night.

[Denzark]

With all the blood angel pensioners about, with their sanguinary care workers delivering FNP, I recommend getting first charge in when you declare happy slap;)

[Master Bryss]

Or we can let them out to steal cars, happy slap pensioners, vandalize property, get their 13 year old girlfriends pregnant and shoplift everything in sight. Extreme? Nothing in a 40k novel is half as bad as what happens on a council estate in Nottingham on a Saturday night.

And now I know just why the 40k fluff, and the Orks, have evolved in the way they have (besides the pregnant part). It's the environment they've grown up in!

[Aldramelech]

It is strange that GW HQ is based in the anti social behaviour capitol of England, I blame Jervis!

[fuzzbuket]

It is strange that GW HQ is based in the anti social behaviour capitol of England, I blame Jervis!

so youve never been to the nasty parts of london

or glasge <_< >_> ill nife ya muthafoker

(just kidding but seriously it is like that)

[rbryce]

glasgow used to be bad, its pretty cool now, as for london, thats not so bad either, just dont go to the rough areas. personally, i dont think anywhere in the uk is as bad as say, LA, or parts of africa.

OT: i dont think your really doing anything wrong there Hsojvagdadada(sorry, forgot how to spell it). he started to paint first, which will help with Hand-eye coordination, a key skill to develop with early years education, then with the introduction to gaming you add mathematics skills(counting, simple addition/subtraction), then comes the reading as a young adult to keep them interested, as many kids lose interest during puberty(for some reason). it seems that your making the backstory age appropriate for the time being(eg. space marines are super-soldiers who protect mankind as opposed to genetically altered, mind scrubbed killing machines whos sole reason to exist is the subjugation of man as much as the outside forces). it all comes down to how you and your son want to spend time together, my daughter loves all the mini horses i have, she clip-clops them round the house all day, she likes to try to paint them, and one day she will probably want to play warhammer(id rather that as it is less grim), and 40K. she also loves princesses and pink, so i doubt its warping her perspective.

[fuzzbuket]

thats good about your son :D

i used to have the worst hand-eye coordination (dysprexia) and had to visit this kids hospital and got time out in primary 1-3 but thanks to painting my hand eyes got a lot better (okay i still have bad handwriting but now its legiable :P)

yes id say its good to have your son do that than say sit on the xbox.
if he keeps paining you might have a future demon winner :P

[HsojVvad]

Just imagine from playing at a young age, say if he sticks with 40K till he is 20 or older, what kind of General he can be.

:)

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, I don't think the GRIMDARK-ness of 40k will be a problem so long as you explain to him that it's fiction and not reality. I grew up playing Doom and the like because my mom drilled into my head the difference between reality and fiction.

I dunno I'm rambling at this point; unfocused as I'm excited as hell as I'm seeing Iron Maiden later tonight.

[rbryce]

bless you commisar, perhaps you would be more hyped to see a decent band lol? that really is the point though isnt it, its more about explaining that some things are real, some arent. i read narnia books to my kids, but they know that lions dont really talk, even if they are a representation of jesus!

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, I firmly believe that media such as games and books that are violent don't cause problems so long as people know the difference between fantasy and reality. It's not so much the media itself that is the problem, it's people who can't differentiate between reality and fantasy. In my opinion so long as parents explain to the kids the difference and make sure they get it, I believe it isn't a problem.

Because let's face it, reading mankind's history is full of 40k-esque tragedies and other assorted *******ry. 40k ain't bad considering it's fantasy; but some of the things humanity has actually done is appaling. But I'm getting off topic here.

[Porty1119]

You actually bring up a decent point. A lot of the Imperium's worst traits ARE based off history, and I've yet to meet someone who refuses to let their kid read history books.

[MajorSoB]

As one parent to another please take this advice...

1) 40K is just a game. Nothing more and nothing less. They are just toys.
2) Don't try to shelter you child from the world and life. I personally chose to let me son see the real world the way it exists. Yes the real world often sucks but in that there is hope to change and create something good out of what we have around us. Rainbows exist but so does death and destruction.
3) The imaginary 40K universe really is no different. On a whole it sucks but there is hope throughout the fluff of redemption and rebirth. No army from the dawn of time has escaped without blood on its hands. 40K is no different, battles are won by beating, maiming and killing you enemy. It represents reality. Somewhere along the way we all bought into the idea of sterile warfare, where armies act as world policemen and nothing bad happens to the innocent. 40K drives back home the flaws in this illusion. War exists and in that made up universe, there is war and only war.
4) If 40K is too violent or distasteful for you and your child, please seek out the wonderful game of Bella Sara, the card game where you collect pretty horsies!

[BuFFo]

I do not know how to say this. So please bear with me. When I play 40K with my son, I sometimes have to put beautiful rainbows and unicorns and care bears so to say, to the 40K universe is not so bleak to him.

I do not want him to know about mass murder and extinctions of planets just because a few deamons were there. I don't want him to know how the Emperor just murdered people because they didn't want to join him.

So this got me thinking that we are playing a game that is worse than Hitler, Stalin and numerous other people in the world we know that committed atrocities and what not. We actually have alot of these atrocities going in the world today.

Bascially SM are no better than the SS what they did for Hitler. So why is it ok that we play with these units who by today standards are horrible people and we dispise and loathe. Why is it ok to pretend it's ok and play with it?

What does this speak about our character? We will denounce anyone who glorifies the ****s and what they did, but we turn around and play with the same equivlient plastic toy soldiers ala SM or anything with the Imperium.

Does this make us hipocrits? It's ok to play like that but not to say it? Yes I know its the 40K univers and it is grim, but what is the difference from playing SM who fight for the Emporer who was just a Dictator who slaughtered million or even billions who did not join him and fallow his way and someone who plays with **** toys and pretends he is taking over the world?

I don't know, maybe I am doing too much thinking today and I just feel ashamed a bit today for playing overglorified **** type characters.

What do you guys think?

Did you really compare people who play with toys with actual historical figures such as Stalin and Hitler?

[Hyperion]

I do not know how to say this. So please bear with me. When I play 40K with my son, I sometimes have to put beautiful rainbows and unicorns and care bears so to say, to the 40K universe is not so bleak to him.

I do not want him to know about mass murder and extinctions of planets just because a few deamons were there. I don't want him to know how the Emperor just murdered people because they didn't want to join him.

So this got me thinking that we are playing a game that is worse than Hitler, Stalin and numerous other people in the world we know that committed atrocities and what not. We actually have alot of these atrocities going in the world today.

Bascially SM are no better than the SS what they did for Hitler. So why is it ok that we play with these units who by today standards are horrible people and we dispise and loathe. Why is it ok to pretend it's ok and play with it?

What does this speak about our character? We will denounce anyone who glorifies the ****s and what they did, but we turn around and play with the same equivlient plastic toy soldiers ala SM or anything with the Imperium.

Does this make us hipocrits? It's ok to play like that but not to say it? Yes I know its the 40K univers and it is grim, but what is the difference from playing SM who fight for the Emporer who was just a Dictator who slaughtered million or even billions who did not join him and fallow his way and someone who plays with **** toys and pretends he is taking over the world?

I don't know, maybe I am doing too much thinking today and I just feel ashamed a bit today for playing overglorified **** type characters.

What do you guys think?

GM, it's true, are renlentless in their efforts to evoke the bewildering wankness of existing in the 40k universe. Yes it's bleak. Yes pretty much everyone is bad, mad or dangerous to know. But it is just fantasy. Space fantasy at least. And really, the bits that aren't nicked from Moorcock are fairly tongue-in-cheek (actually it all is). That said, my young un is blissfully unaware of how bad the good guys are. Which, considering that he's temperamentally of the side of the devourers and spoilers probably says more about my discomfort surrounding 40k ethics than anything else. My guard don't have commisars and never will because I detest the very idea of them. I don't have conscripts for similar reasons. Don't forget that this is your' game... feel free to change the stories as much as you want... it's only fluff after all.

Incidentally, for the best example of how all this relates to the real world watch 'Generation Kill'. Get Some!

[Hyperion]

Well, we can get children into a hobby where they learn about good sportsmanship, modelmaking, artistic talent, social skills, reading (and I don't care about the subject matter, The Lord of the Rings was shoved down kids throats for years and do you know how hard it is to get kids to read anything these days?), manners and the ability to THINK.

Or we can let them out to steal cars, happy slap pensioners, vandalize property, get their 13 year old girlfriends pregnant and shoplift everything in sight. Extreme? Nothing in a 40k novel is half as bad as what happens on a council estate in Nottingham on a Saturday night.

Must be a hell of a lot worse than the estates around my patch... I'll take pissed-up slappers, overdoses and the odd murder over mass genocide by ravening alien / demon hordes any day. How the hell would I write up that report!?

[Aldramelech]

Must be a hell of a lot worse than the estates around my patch... I'll take pissed-up slappers, overdoses and the odd murder over mass genocide by ravening alien / demon hordes any day. How the hell would I write up that report!?

"Whilst proceeding along Oakfields Avenue it came to my attention that a large disturbance was taking place at the end of the road. Upon arriving on the scene I was confronted by a large Gentleman who identified himself to me as one Cholockdzen "Destroyer of Worlds" , this Gentleman appeared to be the ringleader of a large group of youths who were in the process of hurling abuse at another group across the road. All appeared to be dressed for a Halloween party.

The second group seemed to have consisted of older youths in some sort of plastic clothing. When I arrived they seemed to be in the process of retreating but had been stopped by the area car and were being spoken to by PC Dimwhit.

I pointed out to Mr. Cholockdzen that this was a residential area and that if he and his friends did not disperse he would be in breach of section 5 of the public order act and I would have no choice but to arrest him. Mr Cholockdzen seemed to find this amusing.

At this point I was joined by PC's Dimwhit and Brightspark who had successfully dispersed the other party goers. I asked Mr. Cholockdzen to provide me with some form of ID, and he refused. He then spoke to me in a foreign language (Polish?) and although I could not understand what was said, it was obviously unpleasant. I pointed out that if there was any more of that I would also be adding the charge of words likely to cause distress or offense. Mr. Cholockdzen then told me "I will crush you and cast you into the pit of everlasting torment!" This was clearly a threat to myself and my colleagues. At this point I decided to deploy my handcuffs and take Mr. Cholockdzen into custody.

Mr. Cholockdzen was clearly unhappy with this outcome and made numerous complaints about the application of the handcuffs along the lines of "The bindings of wrath, they do burn me!", it was clear to me at this point that Mr. Cholockdzen was clearly under the influence of drugs/alcohol. I called for transport, and removed the Prisoner to the Custody sweat at Kneetremble road. After booking him in and charging him with behavior likely to cause a breach of the peace, I went on refs.

I have no knowledge of and was not present at his subsequent escape from custody." ;)

[Aldramelech]

GM, it's true, are renlentless in their efforts to evoke the bewildering wankness of existing in the 40k universe. Yes it's bleak. Yes pretty much everyone is bad, mad or dangerous to know. But it is just fantasy. Space fantasy at least. And really, the bits that aren't nicked from Moorcock are fairly tongue-in-cheek (actually it all is). That said, my young un is blissfully unaware of how bad the good guys are. Which, considering that he's temperamentally of the side of the devourers and spoilers probably says more about my discomfort surrounding 40k ethics than anything else. My guard don't have commisars and never will because I detest the very idea of them. I don't have conscripts for similar reasons. Don't forget that this is your' game... feel free to change the stories as much as you want... it's only fluff after all.

Incidentally, for the best example of how all this relates to the real world watch 'Generation Kill'. Get Some!

Every GW shop should have a Mr. Potato head enforcing the grooming standard:D

[Fellend]

GI Joe: Evil terrorists are trying to take over the world and rule it in their own evil fashion. Luckily we have the american police who drop bombs wherever they are in the world and invade countries because they feel that there's terrorists there (come to think of it... kind of like in the real world, but this is not a political discussion)
Transformers: Pretty sure the decepticons tries to kill all of humanity in every episode.
Starwars: Massive butchering, I don't see why the jedis are so good.
Pokemon: there's some animal cruelty right there, taking cute pets and making them fight
Any kind of war figurines: Personally I always played the germans with my war toys because they had nicer colors, people invaded my concentration camps, I found that quite rude.

And let's not go into video games, because lets face it morals and ethics are seriously lacking
"Street fighters, make the world a better place"

if you want to go into a more historical aspect (speaking now for swedes can't say for anyone else)
about 80 years ago, it was said that crime novels would make kids into massive killers and erode all conscience,
a little later came the dance parks, where morals would be blown away by sex and violence and everyone would turn into violent rapists
enter the tv and the violence of it would be the death of us all!
enter movies and the violence of it would be the death of us all!
enter the computer and the violence of it would be the death of us all!
enter the internet and the violence of it would be the death of us all!
enter warhammer and the violence of it would be the death of us all!

I forgot marilyn manson and death metal in there but i'm lazy, you get the point.
Kids have an amazing ability to learn. If you as a parent teach them what is right and what is wrong they like all kids that's been playing war before them will know that it's morally wrong to do ethic cleansing and kill anyone because they happen to be green.

And after all can't you just make the warhammer world very black and white? maybe HIS chapter happends to be the guardian angels that never attack but always defends against constant invasions and if they do attack surely it's a pre-emptive strike that saves millions of innocent babies?

Fantasy is what you make of it, just because you might have twisted mind due the harsh reality don't force it upon your children.

[Hyperion]

Every GW shop should have a Mr. Potato head enforcing the grooming standard:D

That moustaches is extending beyound the side of your mouth... you is an abomination an the Emperor don't like it!

[Hyperion]

"Whilst proceeding along Oakfields Avenue it came to my attention that a large disturbance was taking place at the end of the road. Upon arriving on the scene I was confronted by a large Gentleman who identified himself to me as one Cholockdzen "Destroyer of Worlds" , this Gentleman appeared to be the ringleader of a large group of youths who were in the process of hurling abuse at another group across the road. All appeared to be dressed for a Halloween party.

The second group seemed to have consisted of older youths in some sort of plastic clothing. When I arrived they seemed to be in the process of retreating but had been stopped by the area car and were being spoken to by PC Dimwhit.

I pointed out to Mr. Cholockdzen that this was a residential area and that if he and his friends did not disperse he would be in breach of section 5 of the public order act and I would have no choice but to arrest him. Mr Cholockdzen seemed to find this amusing.

At this point I was joined by PC's Dimwhit and Brightspark who had successfully dispersed the other party goers. I asked Mr. Cholockdzen to provide me with some form of ID, and he refused. He then spoke to me in a foreign language (Polish?) and although I could not understand what was said, it was obviously unpleasant. I pointed out that if there was any more of that I would also be adding the charge of words likely to cause distress or offense. Mr. Cholockdzen then told me "I will crush you and cast you into the pit of everlasting torment!" This was clearly a threat to myself and my colleagues. At this point I decided to deploy my handcuffs and take Mr. Cholockdzen into custody.

Mr. Cholockdzen was clearly unhappy with this outcome and made numerous complaints about the application of the handcuffs along the lines of "The bindings of wrath, they do burn me!", it was clear to me at this point that Mr. Cholockdzen was clearly under the influence of drugs/alcohol. I called for transport, and removed the Prisoner to the Custody sweat at Kneetremble road. After booking him in and charging him with behavior likely to cause a breach of the peace, I went on refs.

I have no knowledge of and was not present at his subsequent escape from custody." ;)

I do the other bit...

Custody Sarge won't have him...

Really? Why?

Well, he's 15 metres tall and all kind of covered in ravening mouths full of sharp teeth.

I see. So, my involment here is...?

He needs to go to hospital...

And why would that be?

Er... He's drunk?

[Kirsten]

I can appreciate you wanting to keep certain things from your son, that is all well and good and something that other parents should take note of, too many buy video games and the like unsuitable for their kids. I certainly commend your desire.

However, in this instance, it is just a game. It is entirely fictional, you could just as easily ask whether or not playing a khorne army means you are a mass murderer. Playing nurgle doesn't make you a biological weapons designer. I started playing when I was 12, I never had any trouble separating fact from fiction.

[Aldramelech]

To be fair Kirsten, how much trouble can you get into on the Isle of Man? (Apart from driving furiously!)

[Aldramelech]

That moustaches is extending beyound the side of your mouth... you is an abomination an the Emperor don't like it!

What does Aldramelech think? Aldramelech thinks this thread rocks......:D


I do the other bit...

Custody Sarge won't have him...

Really? Why?

Well, he's 15 metres tall and all kind of covered in ravening mouths full of sharp teeth.

I see. So, my involment here is...?

He needs to go to hospital...

And why would that be?

Er... He's drunk?


To which my answer would be "Well I aint doing it, jog on sunshine!" :D

[Kirsten]

To be fair Kirsten, how much trouble can you get into on the Isle of Man? (Apart from driving furiously!)

Not too sure what that is about there, but driving is definitely an issue. I ride a motorbike, very dangerous.

[chromedog]

I don't have kids, but I'll tell you what I told the last parent who voiced a similar concern (father of a 10 and 12 year old boys).

If you are unsure of the suitability of the material for younger eyes, WHY are YOU letting them play it?
Do you let them watch SAW movies? Do you let them watch Hellraiser? No? Then exercise the same powers and say "NO".

You can choose which elements of the game you let them see and interact with. When they are old enough to handle the concepts on their own, LET them make their own decisions. It is part of your lot to set boundaries.

When I started, no-one under the age of 17 was playing it.
Mind you, this was BEFORE GW had any of their own stores here - It was also before there WAS a GW oz.

[Hyperion]

What does Aldramelech think? Aldramelech thinks this thread rocks......:D




To which my answer would be "Well I aint doing it, jog on sunshine!" :D


Dude, at this point me and my partner generally raise our hands in the air and run around in thight circles making wooop woop noises until the bad thing stops. If that doesnt work, we hit em with oxy bottles until the desired effect is accomplished...

[Hyperion]

Not too sure what that is about there, but driving is definitely an issue. I ride a motorbike, very dangerous.

Hmm yeah... risk of falling off the edge of the world there, right?