What I saw last night - how young is too young...?

[Denzark]

Last night, I went to my Wargames club I joined recently. Started to set out for a game. Now, this chubby little fella, could have been anywhere between 9 and 13, came over, had a look at the table, and started to ask a few questions about what was what, which I answered politely.

He then gave me the benefit of his wisdom: "You're going to have trouble against those blood angels." Running through a list of options in my head (a bit like the terminator, "f*ck you arsehole" was at the top of the list) I managed to tolerantly say: "Really?"

I then did my best to ignore him and carried on setting out. When he saw my converted defiler, which has a crusher ball (from a ping pong ball) with spikes over it, with out asking he reached out and touched it. So I stare him out and he mumbles some comment about just wanting to see if it is fixed.

He then gets the message and goes off to a table of younger chaps, who I presume he recognises from school, and bugs them, which involves grabbing a land raider off the table and asking how much it costs, spilling a can of pop over some terrain, and proceeding to poke people in the neck with a tape measure extended.


Now, I know be tolerant and bring on the younger players, and all that jazz, but no one was bringing him into line. Personally, I rue the day that citadel miniatures lost their heavy lead content and the warning on the back 'not suitable for persons younger than 14 years'. I admit I was 10 when I discovered White Dwarf many years ago (in the last century) but I certainly never touched any miniatures without asking, and had a helathy respect for my elders beaten into me at school. I also always differentiate between toys, and model kits, hence I always use the term miniatures or models - never 'toy soldiers'.

How young is too young, is youth a good thing or does GW bring in seemingly ever younger generations and dumbing down rules to match affecting us all? Morally should people that young have an interest in a universe where the common denominator between the races is the urge to commit genocide on the others?

[eldargal]

Well its hard to know what is too young. I think it comes back to parenting. If the child has been taught manners and to respect other peoples property then they should be fine. But how often does that happen?:rolleyes:

[addamsfamily36]

hmm

even a well brought up child is going to be curious. totally preventing a child from touching your models is going to be tough. Where one adult may be more than happy to let a child pick up any of his models, and then another who is totally against it is going to leave that kid in the middle going

:confused:

Yes, older kids should know the difference between politeness and stepping boundaries etc, and it sounds like this particular kid is one of the many annoying ones, but not all kids are the same and a well behaved kid might also be curious and pick a model up without permission, are you going to glare at him too? I think its important to realise a disrespectful kid compared to a curious one. the one you described sounds like the first.

Unfortunately the only way to get away from it is not game at private clubs or at a friends house. gone are the days of 16+ gaming nights at local Gw's (well the ones iv'e attended).

[DarkLink]

We have a guy who sometimes brings his kids in, but he makes sure they're polite and don't mess with models without asking and stuff. And when they play, either he's on their team to coach them, or they're playing against each other.

[Lane]

I play at a GW store, I have seen kids as young as 8.

[HsojVvad]

Hmmm... you have a problem with youngins? I have a problem with adults who don't know notihng about how it is to be a kid.

My son was 4 or 5 at the time. He started when he was 3. Of course he won every game we played. :D

thing is when we went to a GW store, this was the HQ bunker in Canada at the time, he was telling these 20-30 year olds how he never loses and he can beat them. He was being cute. The look on their face was with disugst.

Really I thought. I was about to throttle them in the face but I took my son away and told him he has to be a gracefull winner and looser. How can they be disgusted in a 5 year old having fun?

He sees the older guys talk smack, so he wanted to do it as well. How can anyone over the age of 16 take offence? Kids are kids. Children just want to have fun. The 13 year old should have know better, but a 4 or 5 year old? I thought it was cute what my son did but the adults thought he was crazy.

I think too many adults here take it too serious. Yes I agree you do not touch nothing without asking first.

For the OP to just stare at him, and not say anything and then complain nobody was keeping the 13 year old in line, is partialy his fault. The OP should have said, "Please do not touch my miniatures without asking first please" So for one you were in the wrong for just staring at him instead of putting him in his place by saying that normally people do not touch without asking first. So the OP did 2 things wrong.

You see something that is in the wrong, you can correct it. How will this 13 year old learn anyting if nobody tells him?

[MarneusCalgar]

Well, I have been last time in a GW store about 4 years ago... Just the one beside Real Madrid´s Stadium... And there were only the staff (was on Tuesday, on school time, so I was alone with the red shirts).

But now the independent stores and retailers start having the same problems that GW stores have, even here in Spain the hobby is getting so much younger and you can see childs (like hobbits for my height) running across the store and having no problem in touching your minis even if you don´t let them...

They´ve tried with mines but I never let them touch anything, fortunately.

The problem comes when those little *******s get the bad habit of pick pocketing your minis from your case... Or even from the desk if you are not with an eye on them... It has happened to some of my friends and we are now very more badass when a child comes near our desk, getting to the fact to even stop gaming until the dwarf gets far

[Lerra]

There is a 6-year old girl who comes by the gaming store weekly (accompanied by her father and 9-year old brother). She doesn't play, but she paints (and pretty well, too!). We've never had any problem with them because they are very well behaved and the father is always present to watch over them.

There are a handful of teenagers who could probably use some supervision, though . . . they travel in a pack, and it seems like their collective IQ gets lower as the pack gets larger. They like to talk smack, to the point where they initiate games by going up to a player to tell him that his army sucks and that he is about to get pummeled into the ground. We are slowly shaping them up into proper 40k players, though. The smack talk died down rather quickly after their best player (a Tau player) challenged one of our best players (a mechanized Ork player). The Ork player claimed that he could table the Tau player without ever getting into assault, and he did.

I once played a game with a boy who judged to be roughly 11-12 years old. Later I saw him drive out of the parking lot. Whoops. It turns out that he was 17.

[Denzark]

HsosoosJJjaavaad

I don't have a problem with 'yougins' per se, I act as an adult instructor for a youth group in my spare time. But there is a time and a place. The place may not be recreating murder and death in 28mm scale, in the function rooms of a working mans club, where there is a bar.

I note you call me as partially in the wrong, and do not mention that the parents should have socialised him properly.

I go more with Eldargal as to what happens in a decent society - the parents should either be stopping the behaviour on the spot or engendering decent values.

Believe me, if I remember what it is to be a child, back to my boarding school days, we referred to youngsters as 'Tics' quite appropriate for small blood-sucking parasites. Had I reverted to form I would have givne him a small dose of gratuitous violence - sort of aversion therapy using some heinous torture or other. Actually whilst he was talking politely to me I responded in kind. So I don't think I was out of order at all.

What I am trying to get is not a run down of how one should act in a given situation - I assure you I will consult Debrett's before BoLS - but people's thoughts of the impact of (extreme) youth on our hobby.

[HsojVvad]

HsosoosJJjaavaad

I don't have a problem with 'yougins' per se, I act as an adult instructor for a youth group in my spare time. But there is a time and a place. The place may not be recreating murder and death in 28mm scale, in the function rooms of a working mans club, where there is a bar.

I note you call me as partially in the wrong, and do not mention that the parents should have socialised him properly.

I go more with Eldargal as to what happens in a decent society - the parents should either be stopping the behaviour on the spot or engendering decent values.

Believe me, if I remember what it is to be a child, back to my boarding school days, we referred to youngsters as 'Tics' quite appropriate for small blood-sucking parasites. Had I reverted to form I would have givne him a small dose of gratuitous violence - sort of aversion therapy using some heinous torture or other. Actually whilst he was talking politely to me I responded in kind. So I don't think I was out of order at all.

What I am trying to get is not a run down of how one should act in a given situation - I assure you I will consult Debrett's before BoLS - but people's thoughts of the impact of (extreme) youth on our hobby.

True enough. I see wher eyou are coming from, where the parents just drop their kids off as if it were Day Care. Day Care for young teen agers, is not fun at all.

Yes I do not like when kids just grab everything in site as well. After all you worked hard to model and paint and spent lots of money to buy the mini. You spent lots of time to complete it.

I would wish that since GW wants to get more of a younger crowd into the hobby that GW would put out a set of socially accpeted rules to fallow.

Like: Do not touch without asking, respect one another, and no matter how much you know, do not tell someone that their army is no good or will be beat all the time because of new codex or what not.

Even a half page spread sheet would help in the BRB.

[Lerra]

Even a half page spread sheet would help in the BRB.

You could ask your FLGS to post some expected etiquette, too. We've had a poster up for about a year and I've noticed it has helped with the newer/younger folks coming into the store. Many parents don't understand wargaming and don't understand that a model can be easily damaged, so they don't know that they should discourage their children from running around and touching stuff. Parents are often used to toys that are cheap and designed for rough play.

Most of the poster is common sense, but not everyone has a good supply of that (especially teenagers):

Do not touch or move someone else's stuff without their permission. If you damage their property, you may be asked to replace it.

If people are in the middle of a game, try to limit your interaction with them unless they give you permission to ask questions. Wargaming takes a lot of concentration!

etc.

[BlindGunn]

I've had some experience with "The Young Ones". As stated earlier - it really depends on the kids and how they were brought up.

I usually keep an eye out for them, and try to warn them against touching anything without permission as they come up to the table. I'm not a world-class painter so I'm not worried about paint chips and such. Physical damage is more a concern.

My experience has been that if I treat the kids (or the adults for that matter) with respect and like intellegent beings, they will usually do likewise. This does lead into some problems with lots of distractions as some kids will flood you with the inevitable questions, but if I ask, they'll usually wait until I say it's ok to ask more. I was surprised when one parent thanked me for how I handled his kid and was told that "no one ever treated him like an adult before!"

My biggest beef is with the Sugar-hyped brats that have no self-control and whose parents don't supervise them. As the laws here are very "civilized", you can't just take the kids out back and give them a spanking for damaging your stuff and it's usually pointless to threaten legal action. More importantly, there's not much you can do when the parents are either not there or won't control their kids. At that point, the complaint goes to the store owner or event organizer to deal with. Fortunately, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to do that since I got back into miniature gaming in the last 15 years. It is a very rare occurance.

[Herald of Nurgle]

(lo and beyond, a young'un emerges)

I have to agree with you. While youth may be the future of our grand hobby, there does need to be a sort of cutoff point. Children under 10 don't really have any 'business' to be in a GW much less perhaps hassling some of the other patrons of that store unless they're actually being managed or watched appropriately by parents or guardians or if they are actually mature enough to be able to realise how grating their actions can be.

We call small children (in general - not by age but by appearance lol) Munchkins or just 'Small Children' (I have been known to eat a few on the occaison that i'm peckish or Nurgle demands a sacrifice :P) until they show maturity. So on so forth.

[UltramarineFan]

I'm only 14 so my view on this forum is probably not the majority. I have to admit that I can also find the younger kids really annoying from time to time but generally I've found that they're alright(and if not then GW staff are pretty relaxed about giving threats of banning). I personally don't have a strong view on the matter(I started at 10) but as far as I can tell from listening to GW staff doing their sale's pitches they do recommend that 12 is a good age but that starting younger with help from their parents is fine too. As for the moral aspect...COD is the answer to that question, if they can play that then they can play warhammer, at least warhammer is more social.

[erwos]

It's more maturity than age. Another of my hobbies is target shooting, and there are some older kids who I would _never_ take with me, and some younger ones that I would feel perfectly comfortable with.

I am blessed in that the really young kids at the FLGS play Magic and other CCGs, not 40k. So, they stay on their side of the room, and I stay on mine, and we're all quite happy. Well, except that they're taking up valuable space that could be used for miniatures wargaming...

[Aldramelech]

Thankfully my club meet in a pub, no under 18s. If there are unsupervised kids at a wargames club, then who is ultimately responsible for them? Who is CRB'd? Any club in the UK (Not shops, but clubs) needs to be far more aware of the child protection minefield they are merrily skipping through if they allow unsupervised children.

I too have been an Instructor for a national youth organization, and I cringe at some of the legislation that is blatantly ignored by some clubs.

[CitizenZero]

In my experience as both an employee at GW/Indy Retaliers and as a customer I will without a doubt and unequivocally state:

Annoying adults are 40,000 times more annoying than annoying children. Plus, it's harder to deal with as if they haven't learned better by now...they probably never will.

[fuzzbuket]

It's more maturity than age. .

well said

me and my mates (who are under 15) are generally mature in the local GW and generally looking at oters models is just standing at the table edge.

once halfway through a TEACHING game (e.g. me + my ba, mate 1 + my eldar vs mate 2s salamenders)

40-50 yr old walks up picks up my newly painted pride and joy (fireprism made from a wave serpent with a d-cannon on top to fit my WRAITH army which is coverd in 10 hours of freehand painting) and starts complaining that its not the proper model and shouldnt play.

another time this guy about 30 pick up my mates terminator (which is his best painted model and motivated him to start painting) looks at it, starts parising it,

then he gives my mate tips

then he starts ranting on about how he can commision my mates army for a
"reasonable price"
and a
"reasonable standard"


i for one dont like being taken advantage of

my mate was goin to wreck that poofs face.

most of the under 20s in the local GW seem to be freindly good natured kids

about 1/4 of the adults seem to be complete douches

-fuzz:P

[Denzark]

I'm only 14 so my view on this forum is probably not the majority. I have to admit that I can also find the younger kids really annoying from time to time but generally I've found that they're alright(and if not then GW staff are pretty relaxed about giving threats of banning). I personally don't have a strong view on the matter(I started at 10) but as far as I can tell from listening to GW staff doing their sale's pitches they do recommend that 12 is a good age but that starting younger with help from their parents is fine too. As for the moral aspect...COD is the answer to that question, if they can play that then they can play warhammer, at least warhammer is more social.

This is a mature view, expressed in a mature way - sounds like I would welcome a game with you. The later quotes about maturity are quite key - I have never heard that GW reckons 12 is good. Do you think that this age limit dilutes the rules and the sales plots, etc - I'm sure someone with more experience of marketing can express it better but from 12 to however old Jervis/John Blanche is (surely the upper limits!!) is a massive demographic to attract with the same methods.

Back in the day your entry used to be space crusade/heroquest and GW produced basic boxed games, such as 'Ultramarine' and the Bloodbowl imitation with easier rules. I am sure it (W40K) would be deemed as an adult game with appeal to kids rather than some kids product that I am getting all peter pan over - or am I supposed to have gone for WFB or WAB by now?

[addamsfamily36]

Right well im 21 so ive grown up in the same store since i was 8, and ive always been treated kindly by those older than me. and now that I'm 21 i find that i can socialise outside of gamesworkshop with ex staff and people i have known since i was younger. However there is only one or two younger players who i can see maturing to be bearable in later life.

example:

played 3 games on wednesday, and my first opponent wanted to use 2000 points of 40k, well i only had 1500 on me as i had also brought along my High elves for a game of fantasy later.

anyways, i ask the manager (mate of mine) if i can borrow some of his blood angels army to tag onto mine (which might i add is in the process of a massive revamp, so a bit all over the place with painting converting etc) so as im setting up, this guy i;d say around 13 makes a comment to his mate

"Bennett (thats my nickname) using someone elses models typical."

i chose to ignore it, but in my head i was like *WHAT!!, ive never even met you!*

so we carried on playing, and the guy comes up to my army list in plain view and brace yourselves....

HE DRAWS ALL OVER IT!!
:eek:

thats right just plainly starts writing on my newly printed and designed army list. now this might not seem like much,

But i was like :mad:RAGE!!

again i chose to ignore it though. but this guy has never met me before, i mean ive been at uni for past 6 months and first thing he says is a diss followed by defacing my property.


(i agree though its a minority ruining it for the masses)

[murrburger]

I'm 20, and the first time I was in a GW store is when I was 8 years old. I went with my friend's brother who was probably about 18 at the time. He told me the one golden rule. "Don't touch anything."

That's when I started to get interested in Warhammer. I remember that everyone was very polite to me, and they looked like they were having a lot of fun.

I think age has nothing to do with it. You're either have a good attitude, or you don't. I've had lots of fun teaching younger gamers how to play, while at the same time watching an adult's gloating and temper tantrums moving in and out like the tide.

One thing I always tell new players is to not take this game seriously. Gaming, fluff, painting, etc.

If you paint crappily, or don't, I don't care. If you're bad at the game, I don't care. If you don't know the fluff, I don't care. And if you want to play your hardest to win, I don't care.

Just do whatever it is you want without being a douche to me, and I'll play you.

[Neff]

[QUOTE=addamsfamily36;88826
i chose to ignore it, but in my head i was like *WHAT!!, ive never even met you!*

so we carried on playing, and the guy comes up to my army list in plain view and brace yourselves....

HE DRAWS ALL OVER IT!!
:eek:

thats right just plainly starts writing on my newly printed and designed army list. now this might not seem like much,

But i was like :mad:RAGE!!

again i chose to ignore it though. but this guy has never met me before, i mean ive been at uni for past 6 months and first thing he says is a diss followed by defacing my property.


(i agree though its a minority ruining it for the masses)[/QUOTE]

I would have ended him. That was rude and unrespectful.

In my experiance maturity is an enormous factor, right along with weather or not that person has grown up at the store (or their parents). At ours we have a 15 yo kid who has no respect for any players or models. We've been complainging about him for months but the management did nothing. Finally, one day he and three of his cronies joined in a big megabattle we were having. after 3 turns of having to go outside and "fetch" them the manager decided to ban him. he can still shop and hang out, but he cant come behind the gaming area anymore.

As for kids who grow up in the store I think they're alot more respectful. their parents either have taken them in or started out there also. they grow up knowing the laws of the store and become part of the family.

[scadugenga]

Last night, I went to my Wargames club I joined recently. Started to set out for a game. Now, this chubby little fella, could have been anywhere between 9 and 13, came over, had a look at the table, and started to ask a few questions about what was what, which I answered politely.

He then gave me the benefit of his wisdom: "You're going to have trouble against those blood angels." Running through a list of options in my head (a bit like the terminator, "f*ck you arsehole" was at the top of the list) I managed to tolerantly say: "Really?"

Ah, the young. ;)

I had a kid (maybe 13) who saw me practicing sword flowers one day stick his head in and go "you're doing it wrong." No introduction, no preamble, nada. Just like you, I ran through the list of possible (and inappropriate) responses and eventually settled with laughing my arse off.

It's mostly (I think) a factor of desperately wanting to be accepted and taking 100% the wrong tack in how to go about it.

The downside in the States here, is that many (ahem) "parents" look at the GW stores (and to a lesser extent the FLGS's) as free "babysitting" so they just drop the kids off and leave. No supervision, and not much in the way of good manners either.

The FLGS has the "lesser extent" because they're not corporate, and tend to take a more firm hand about kids running amuck in their stores. The GW staff are usually glued to the potential $$ being made when mommy or daddy comes to pick the kid up.

[addamsfamily36]

The downside in the States here, is that many (ahem) "parents" look at the GW stores (and to a lesser extent the FLGS's) as free "babysitting" so they just drop the kids off and leave. No supervision, and not much in the way of good manners either.


Oh it happens here in the uk too.

I mean yeh sure my mum used to drop me off for an hour or two whislt she went shopping in town etc, but thats

a: because i showed interest and started collecting

b: she made sure i was with a friend and if i wasn't she knew the staff maybe not by name but by face, and she and my dad brought me up not to run riot lol

Unfortunately there are some kids who are dropped off at local Gw's and now increasingly gaming clubs as if they are some form of Day centre.

[addamsfamily36]

I would have ended him. That was rude and unrespectful.


Oh i almost did my friend. i was more stunned than anything. As my nickname is jsut my surname its quite catchy so everyone gets to know it pretty quickly. I also used to paint quite alot and win most of the in store painting competitions and get a lot of people (who i don't even know ) asking me for like judgment on their models. Im fair and give good advice (even though i often feel a bit odd, as i don;t regard myself as a particularly amazing painter). and some of the guys who ask me are really sound guys, one is a brother of a guy i went to college with and his painting is coming along at an incredible rate.

But this guy who just waltzed up with his crony, bad mouthing then writing on my stuff i just couldn't believe it. let alone respond.

[scadugenga]

Oh it happens here in the uk too.

I mean yeh sure my mum used to drop me off for an hour or two whislt she went shopping in town etc, but thats

a: because i showed interest and started collecting

b: she made sure i was with a friend and if i wasn't she knew the staff maybe not by name but by face, and she and my dad brought me up not to run riot lol

Unfortunately there are some kids who are dropped off at local Gw's and now increasingly gaming clubs as if they are some form of Day centre.

Yup, its kinda funny, the arguments re: proxying miniatures is reflected in real life by the proxy parenting that goes on. ;)

[Warptiger]

In my experience as both an employee at GW/Indy Retaliers and as a customer I will without a doubt and unequivocally state:

Annoying adults are 40,000 times more annoying than annoying children. Plus, it's harder to deal with as if they haven't learned better by now...they probably never will.


I agree... I've run into "adults" more annoying then any child could ever be... I've had a guy who was in his late 20's pick up one of my models without asking, and break a piece off by "accident"... then he basically said I should use stronger super glue. No apology. Nothing. I should have expected it though: this guy carried his army around in a cardboard box, in a big tangled pile. He'd just scoop them up by the handful and dump them in the box. Half his army were missing arms, weapons, heads, etc.


It really is about maturity. You can get that at any age. or never get it at all.


I've played against a 13 year old at a tournament who totally skunked me in a game. He had a black templars army that was beautifully painted, well thought out comp wise, and a battle plan that he stuck to despite every road bump I could throw at him . In fact, by turn 3 I realized that I'd been doing nothing but reacting to his plan, instead of following my own... which was why I lost. The kid was polite and charming, and insisted on shaking hands after the game. I would play that kid again in a heartbeat. I cannot say the same about some "adults" I've played.

[Lane]

I've been playing 40k so long I have minis older than the average player at the local GW store.

People of any age can be annoying, on up to complete dick.

There are always exceptions but in general the younger the kid the less likely they are to play the game and more likely playing with the minis. I met a 14 yr old who could not understand why he had to follow the army composition rules instead of using all characters. After all the characters were so much better than the tactical squads. I've seen many under age 10 that felt their opponents should adjust the rules to make it easier for the kid to play. BS like "I'm just a kid so I should hit on 2+".

[Master Bryss]

I've been playing since 11, and I can honestly say that besides a few mishaps at the beginning, I've endeavoured to be a fair and sporting opponent. I agree with everyone who says it's about maturity. I'm starting to run into 8 year olds and such at the local GW now, and a fair few aren't actually that annoying, and really rather polite.

The two main problems with playing youths are their attention span, and the fact that they usually get called away by their parents in turn 3 or 4. I can't complain really, as I had to do the same thing when I started out.

[Renegade]

Having had to deal with the occasional drunk walking in to the store and picking up my stuff, right in the middle of games some times, kid are no problems. I generally warn them to ask if they want a closer look as soon as they start staring.

I be honest, I try and avoid having my models anywhere near kids and go to the store only on 'vet nights' (no under 16s) though the staff to their best to manage things. Its a hobby store not a kids group!

That 13 year old needed to be told he was being out of order, and to leave if he didn't chill. But still, at 13 he really should have known better.

[UltramarineFan]

This is a mature view, expressed in a mature way - sounds like I would welcome a game with you. The later quotes about maturity are quite key - I have never heard that GW reckons 12 is good. Do you think that this age limit dilutes the rules and the sales plots, etc - I'm sure someone with more experience of marketing can express it better but from 12 to however old Jervis/John Blanche is (surely the upper limits!!) is a massive demographic to attract with the same methods.

Back in the day your entry used to be space crusade/heroquest and GW produced basic boxed games, such as 'Ultramarine' and the Bloodbowl imitation with easier rules. I am sure it (W40K) would be deemed as an adult game with appeal to kids rather than some kids product that I am getting all peter pan over - or am I supposed to have gone for WFB or WAB by now?


Well thank you to start with, I am usually the most mature amongst my friends so I'm glad that still true. They will usually say that 12 is the ideal age but then follow it up by saying that it can be done from 9 or 10 with help from the parents(not wanting to lose a sale when possible obviously). I have to say that I don't think that they can do much to 'target' their game to a younger or an older audience, the way 5th ed 40k was streamlined some said that it was being dumbed down for a younger generation of players but I don't think this is the case and believe that they really did want to produce a game that was faster and more fun to play. With most things you can classify them into either, 'Adult' or 'Kid', however it's not so simple with model wargaming as it really can attract all ages without much difficulty due to the fact that the things that get people into the game when they are 10 are the same things that will get people into the game when they are 40 for example.
There is always the argument of 'Fantasy is more adult than 40k' but that's just complete rubbish, and I know that most of the people who have a passion for the hobby do both, whatever their age. The thing about 40k being more childish is stupid and the only explanation I have found is that there do seem to be more younger players playing 40k than older ones, though this does not seem to be because it is a more childish game it's just that it appeals more to younger children than fantasy(due to the guns and tanks I think). This does not make 40k more childish it just makes it appeal more to a younger age group due to the universe that the game is set in.

[BuFFo]

Last night, I went to my Wargames club I joined recently. Started to set out for a game. Now, this chubby little fella, could have been anywhere between 9 and 13, came over, had a look at the table, and started to ask a few questions about what was what, which I answered politely.

He then gave me the benefit of his wisdom: "You're going to have trouble against those blood angels." Running through a list of options in my head (a bit like the terminator, "f*ck you arsehole" was at the top of the list) I managed to tolerantly say: "Really?"

I then did my best to ignore him and carried on setting out. When he saw my converted defiler, which has a crusher ball (from a ping pong ball) with spikes over it, with out asking he reached out and touched it. So I stare him out and he mumbles some comment about just wanting to see if it is fixed.

He then gets the message and goes off to a table of younger chaps, who I presume he recognises from school, and bugs them, which involves grabbing a land raider off the table and asking how much it costs, spilling a can of pop over some terrain, and proceeding to poke people in the neck with a tape measure extended.


Now, I know be tolerant and bring on the younger players, and all that jazz, but no one was bringing him into line. Personally, I rue the day that citadel miniatures lost their heavy lead content and the warning on the back 'not suitable for persons younger than 14 years'. I admit I was 10 when I discovered White Dwarf many years ago (in the last century) but I certainly never touched any miniatures without asking, and had a helathy respect for my elders beaten into me at school. I also always differentiate between toys, and model kits, hence I always use the term miniatures or models - never 'toy soldiers'.

How young is too young, is youth a good thing or does GW bring in seemingly ever younger generations and dumbing down rules to match affecting us all? Morally should people that young have an interest in a universe where the common denominator between the races is the urge to commit genocide on the others?

I know adults who are far worse.

[MajorSoB]

Well said Buffo.

I have had the benefit of having "my enforcer" that is my son who started out at 11 with me since I started playing. We both grew in the hobby together. I taught my child to respect other's property and to be polite. He was never an issue, just the opposite it was the "adult" players who often belittled him, cheated him in tournaments, chipmunked him in soft scores, etc that were the real issue. He is now 6 feet tall and over 200lbs, he doesn't get screwed with much anymore!

Bad behavior on the part of adults or children doesnt have a place in the gaming store. If someone touches your models without asking politely state to them it is proper to ask permission first. Try not being rude since they are showing curiosity and may be the next new gamer in our hobby. If the bad behavoir persists then drop the hammer! I am far less annoyed by a child who wants to learn then I am by an "adult" who throws his nerd rage temper tantrums or the rancid gamer who assaults my nose with his refusal to bathe more than twice a year! If you can't handle a particular problem ask store management to help. They usually are quite accommodating when asked politely by a customer who buys product from them on a regular basis. If they don't help, play and shop elsewhere. Also keep your models, books, etc secure in your case when not in use rather than piled on a table somewhere else. It discourages them from leaving your possession and ending up in someone else's army.

So to answer your question, there is not a "too young" as long as the child can behave in an acceptable manner. It is a function of maturity not of chronological age. The same should be said of adults.

[Denzark]

Thanks for some interesting replies. I appreciate that there are some adults who are far worse - mainly becuase they should know better.

Thinking on it, with Britain getting increasingly litigious (sp?) and becoming 'sue-monsters' like our friends abroad, people are often unwilling to take a stand with fractious youth - particulalrly when you may get stabbed if you bollock them for littering the street etc.

For myself, I am far more likely to tell an adult gamer to get back in line - they are responsible for themselves and if they act up, someone has to. I think my problem with children is, some other adult should be responsible for them (Ultramarinefan-esque mature youg adults aside - I bet he bloody paints better than me as well:o) Therefore a problem with kids is twofold - correcting their behavious also requires a criticism of their guardian.

Apart from the fact that I am in a place with a bar, chilling in some serious afterwork recreation, and therefore don't see why I should be a moral compass for brood I haven't fathered (well at least not that I can account for).

Whilst I think it may be amusing to become the sweary ranty man who mumbles, curses, and keeps children away with sheer terror and fear of painful death, I may actually take a step out and try to educate the little mutt. But once only before I kick off mercilessly.

[Hyperion]

Thanks for some interesting replies. I appreciate that there are some adults who are far worse - mainly becuase they should know better.

Thinking on it, with Britain getting increasingly litigious (sp?) and becoming 'sue-monsters' like our friends abroad, people are often unwilling to take a stand with fractious youth - particulalrly when you may get stabbed if you bollock them for littering the street etc.

For myself, I am far more likely to tell an adult gamer to get back in line - they are responsible for themselves and if they act up, someone has to. I think my problem with children is, some other adult should be responsible for them (Ultramarinefan-esque mature youg adults aside - I bet he bloody paints better than me as well:o) Therefore a problem with kids is twofold - correcting their behavious also requires a criticism of their guardian.

Apart from the fact that I am in a place with a bar, chilling in some serious afterwork recreation, and therefore don't see why I should be a moral compass for brood I haven't fathered (well at least not that I can account for).

Whilst I think it may be amusing to become the sweary ranty man who mumbles, curses, and keeps children away with sheer terror and fear of painful death, I may actually take a step out and try to educate the little mutt. But once only before I kick off mercilessly.

Fortunately the rat children of rat parents, the ones who do stab you for litter-related altercations (and who's parents are liable to join in) are not really the sort to go for tabletop games. But yes... deep down I think we all suspect now that telling other peoples kids off can result in arrest and much, much worse. Bless the nanny state.

[Melissia]

What matters is maturity rather than age. I swear I've seen thirteen year olds more mature than my older sister.

[fuzzbuket]

Fortunately the rat children of rat parents, the ones who do stab you for litter-related altercations (and who's parents are liable to join in) are not really the sort to go for tabletop games. But yes... deep down I think we all suspect now that telling other peoples kids off can result in arrest and much, much worse. Bless the nanny state.


unfortunatly the glagsow store is positioedright between a club and a train station and during some games some less- nice (read completeratty nedish douchbags)and wernt mean to me (14) or a nother guy who was playing (18) but to the 4 little kids they were being complete retards, but sadly GWS "jervis <3 little kids" attitude meant that turn wasnt so fun :(

btw
@ lane
is this a guy in the glasgow store ? if so i think he left the hobby because of the "bought too much, too much to paint :P" attitude

[Hyperion]

unfortunatly the glagsow store is positioedright between a club and a train station and during some games some less- nice (read completeratty nedish douchbags)and wernt mean to me (14) or a nother guy who was playing (18) but to the 4 little kids they were being complete retards, but sadly GWS "jervis <3 little kids" attitude meant that turn wasnt so fun :(

btw
@ lane
is this a guy in the glasgow store ? if so i think he left the hobby because of the "bought too much, too much to paint :P" attitude


The one in Liverpool is in a station annexe, the one in the Trafford centre is next to Debenhams which is ideal as me and wifey can compare overpriced toy soldiers against overpriced face gunk.

[fuzzbuket]

overpriced toy soldiers against overpriced face gunk.

LOL :D here was me thinking warhammer was expensive,in an airport looking at watches and ray-bams :P

[MaxKool]

Hehe, this is a good read.

I also have minitures in my armies that are older than alot of my opponents ... :P 32 playing mini games since 13.

I find there is no concrete rules for age/douchebag. Plenty of awesome kids out there and a minority of horrible ones. Same goes for adults... somtimes even more so.

Funny thing is my daughter is 4, It took me all of a day to explain to here that they were not toys and if she was very nice to them she could have her little battles on the kitchen table while I paint on the other side.
The other day I was going out to play and she saw me packin up my stuff and asked (in her cute voice) if she could please play with my "little men and robots"
Knowing that shes NEVER dropped one much less broken anything I went down to my hobby room, grabbed a handfull of my black templars(the most action the have seen in months) necrons and a mostly assembled rhino and gave them to her to play with with while i wasnt home. She promised up and down she would be nice to them...

When I got home, the minis were all on the table and i noticed the rhino had its smoke launcher fallen off and placed inside the model. Not being mad I went to go look for her. When I found her in her room she burst into tears when I came in and said sory like 100 times... I explained that I wasnt mad and asked what happend and thanked her for not loosing the peice and putting it with the tank. She said when she was pushing it on the table it just fell off. Knowing what I do about how she plays (and how crappily I glue somtimes in the middle of the nite) I said it was ok and asked her if she wanted to help me fix it. Tears gone, big smile and we went an fixed it together.

I know as soon as she turns 5 or 6 im gonna start making an army with her. She REEELY likes painting and has allready done a few necrons than put some of the paintjobs ive seen to shame realy...


Kids will be kids, but there is a BIG differance from being a kid and just being a dick. If a kid is a dick to me in the LGS I have NO problem putting him in his place. Politely at first and rudely if that dosnt work... fortunatly we dont have any babysitting problems and the youngest player is 14 at our store.

[scadugenga]

What matters is maturity rather than age.

Well said.

[Melissia]

But then what would I know, apparently there's people on the blog comments section that think me casually ignoring Buffo's trolling attempt is a sign that I'm the antichrist.

Why do blog comments attract retards?

[UltramarineFan]

But then what would I know, apparently there's people on the blog comments section that think me casually ignoring Buffo's trolling attempt is a sign that I'm the antichrist.

Why do blog comments attract retards?

Not blog comments specifically, freedom of speech guarantees retards, it just happens that blog comments is one area where this right can be exercised, hence the retards that can be found.

[Daemonette666]

Last night, I went to my Wargames club I joined recently. Started to set out for a game. Now, this chubby little fella, could have been anywhere between 9 and 13, came over, had a look at the table, and started to ask a few questions about what was what, which I answered politely.

He then gave me the benefit of his wisdom: "You're going to have trouble against those blood angels." Running through a list of options in my head (a bit like the terminator, "f*ck you arsehole" was at the top of the list) I managed to tolerantly say: "Really?"

I then did my best to ignore him and carried on setting out. When he saw my converted defiler, which has a crusher ball (from a ping pong ball) with spikes over it, with out asking he reached out and touched it. So I stare him out and he mumbles some comment about just wanting to see if it is fixed.

He then gets the message and goes off to a table of younger chaps, who I presume he recognises from school, and bugs them, which involves grabbing a land raider off the table and asking how much it costs, spilling a can of pop over some terrain, and proceeding to poke people in the neck with a tape measure extended.


Now, I know be tolerant and bring on the younger players, and all that jazz, but no one was bringing him into line. Personally, I rue the day that citadel miniatures lost their heavy lead content and the warning on the back 'not suitable for persons younger than 14 years'. I admit I was 10 when I discovered White Dwarf many years ago (in the last century) but I certainly never touched any miniatures without asking, and had a helathy respect for my elders beaten into me at school. I also always differentiate between toys, and model kits, hence I always use the term miniatures or models - never 'toy soldiers'.

How young is too young, is youth a good thing or does GW bring in seemingly ever younger generations and dumbing down rules to match affecting us all? Morally should people that young have an interest in a universe where the common denominator between the races is the urge to commit genocide on the others?
As you probaly know, tabletop miniature wargaming was derived from chess, and it was originally a young adults or adults hobby. Enter the world of corporate finance, and making a buck. Thats when things changed. Early on it was not so bad, parents were good at keeping their kids in line, and kids were not as used to being bullies, or getting away with misbehaving as they are these days.

An easy solution, could be a set of rules posted on the wall of your local gaming shop, or wargames club - if it happens to a GW as is the case here, so bi it, but state clearly in the rules, that anyone touching other peoples miniatures without asking, or those who behave in a manner to put others down will be asked to leave the shop, or club. They put up signs telling people soking or eating is not allowed, so why not signs banning bad behavour and swearing, etc.

I personally would have told the store manager or one of the gaming specialist about the brat, and ask then to keep an eye on him. They usually tell them to behave, or ask their parents to control their kids. Well they do in the gaming shop around my way.

You will alwys get someone like that. Just tell them to mind their own business and leave your stuff alone next time. Just don't fall to the temptation of swearing or yelling at them. I have done that before, and the kid gets the message or you report them to the club/store manager.

[Lerra]

Actually the first modern wargame was H.G. Wells' Little Wars. It was subtitled: "A game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games."

[HsojVvad]

Didn't checkers come before chess?

[Daemonette666]

Didn't checkers come before chess?
But would you call checkers a game of tactics?

Lerra, when I mentioned the earlier wargames, I meant that they were originally meant to be played by the more mature person, possibly as a way to train future generals.. In the same line as Napoleonic wars and Civil war miniature games reflect the actual battles that took place on a generals table in his HQ looking at a realistic map of a country or particular battlefield with figures representing his individual armies or regiments.

I still think a parent who spares the strap for very bad behaviour, or yelling and punishment for slightly bad behaviour is spoiling the child. No wonder we have so many gangs of teenager vandalising public property, and attacking old people in their homes these days. (generalisation - no specific country)

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

I have to agree with most of you here, there are some cool kids, younglings i call them lol, but there respectful to others miniatures.
Now there young, lack experience of life and descent morals, but i let it slide most time as long as they keep there voice down and be respectful to everyone in the local club.
But then there are the kids you want to throttle too, some yes with there parents who cant or just wont be bothered looking after there prescious little kiddies in a store full of players and delicate and sometimes expensive figures.

Personnly i wanted to snot the crap out of a parent and his little kid i think was about 11. For breaking my Penitant Engine, now if you know what they are well there a real nightmare to put together. Well he went up while i wasnt watching picked it up, walked off with it, in the middle of a game and showed his dad. Dropped it and broke it all over the place. Ofcourse i did my block, yelled at the kid and then had afather yelling in my face for it, so i did my block at him to for not teaching his little kid properly.

I dont mind younger kids playing, i actually find it fun to play against them as long as they enjoy the game and respect the game. Just dont give me snot nosed little morons who dont know right vs wrong and never touch my things.
Ive put more huors into painting them than i can imagine.

That said, we all learn somewhere, some age.

[Oktayne]

I feel that as long as they are mature (e.g. not doing what you described) and know how to show respect, then I don't care how old they are.

[Cossack]

Here's what you say to a kid messing with your figures....

"One finger only"

It works.

[DarkLink]

But then what would I know, apparently there's people on the blog comments section that think me casually ignoring Buffo's trolling attempt is a sign that I'm the antichrist.


Just wait for someone to find a picture of you and photoshop a 666 tattoo on you somewhere.


But would you call checkers a game of tactics?

Yes, albeit a fairly simple one.



I still think a parent who spares the strap for very bad behaviour, or yelling and punishment for slightly bad behaviour is spoiling the child. No wonder we have so many gangs of teenager vandalising public property, and attacking old people in their homes these days. (generalisation - no specific country)

Right. Though I will point out that most criminal activity and violence, in general and amongst kids, is on the decline for the most part.

[The Inner Geek]

But would you call checkers a game of tactics?

You would if you played against my grandfather!

But on the subject at hand. I think that we get caught up sometimes treating children like children. If they are acting inappropriately, they should be told so. Not in a mean or rude way, but in an informative way. If my kids were getting out of line and I didn't see it, I'd hope someone would correct them.

I used to hang out and paint several evenings a week at a GW store in South Texas. There were many middle school and high school age kids that were regulars. Maybe it was the exception, but they policed each other pretty well. It was actually the 20 somethings at that store that got on my nerves occasionally.

[Shotgun Justice]

I never had the balls to just pick up an adults miniatures without asking when I was a bairn. I remember my first games night at the original Dalling Road GW store and being completely intimidated by all the hairy older people who seemed to know 'all the rules'.
My dad just sat at one of those tiny red painting tables and read the paper.

As others have said it isn't age that matters but rather appropriate behaviour - kids are less likely to know what such behaviour is within the confines of a war-gaming community but they are much easier to educate than obtuse, unwashed 20 somethings.
This particular sub-species (emphasis my own) needs to learn that full length leather coats often have long, flappy sleeves that cast miniatures over the abyss into the the wastelands of the dreaded store carpet.

[Vaddok Sek]

I'm in the boat that it depends on how well they have been disciplined. For instance I know a couple who frequent our local game shop and both are Fantasy and 40k players, they have a 3-4 (I can't remember exactly) year old who has been brought up knowing not to touch any models without permission. She is alot better behaved than some of the teenagers who come in the store, me and another guy were playing a game once and one of the emo **** came up to the table and started making rude comments, he then picked up one of my Empire handgunners and tossed it across the room. I mean honestly, I'm very passive, but if the owner hadn't threatened to call mall security a second later I would have punched the guy.

[Gop]

It depends on the personality of the kid. I have no problem with any aged kid IF:


they are polite
they are not overly noisy
they ask before touching minis
they have a parent/guardian nearby


I have taught my fair share of new players including kids how to play 40k and enjoy it usually. But only if they are sticking to that list. Once they lose focus and zone out it's time to stop. I usually find kids younger than about 12-13 do that.

[George Labour]

I personally try not to treat people to differently based on their age, but rather on how loud, unhygienic, and obnoxious they are. This means that little kids usually aren't going to interact well with me, but it's not like I go out of my way to be where they want to be.

Fortunately the LGS here figured out that the side rooms made good places to play games in, so there's usually at least four tables available for pickup games, and several rooms for less public sessions. It's reduced the issue with 'unattended cattle' immensely and only left the older kind of smelly, screaming, doofus to tolerate.

Honestly, after many years of having to handle improperly handled brats at a Wal-Mart I don't really want to be near them for any lenght of time, but I've found older players with bad habits and no volume control far more prevalent than the wee ones with grabby hands.

[bubbles15]

I'm actually looking for some advice. I play against a young fellow - well, he's 26 but having lost all the battles bar one we've played he's decided that I'm cheating - which I am ruddy not - and refuses to play that system again (40K).

I'm not some super general - I win only because he runs close co tyranids across the board at a marine gunline - in every battle. The one close combat I won was lumping ten death company into his gaunts. The fellow almost cried, so much so I considered retracting the move. We've put terrain over half the board, closed off every line of sight - heck, I've even left troops in place so his Doom of Malan'tai could splat them.

Since he's suggested playing WFB but - when he starts losing those battles will he stop playing that too? How do people deal with such players?

[Mal]

Bubbles the simple answer is you can't.

If the player is unwilling to learn or adapt a tactic to play the same force (over a period of multipul games) then he is simply not well suited to the game. Its unfortunate, but some people just cant play.

The only avenue left open to you is to take him quietly to one side and try to explain why his tactics are not working, try to be encouraging and tell him not to give up. One thing you should never do however is make the game easier for him. Some will disagree with me here, so perhaps I should elaborate further.

You said your using a marine gunline, well thats definately not a tournament winning army, marines do reasonable gunlines, but they are not well suited for it. So before you begin your giving him an advantage, if you start stacking more and more advantages in his favour you'll soon stop playing 40K and start playing 'let the other guy win', and thats just no fun for you.

If he doesn't come around then stop playing him... it sounds harsh, but there has to be a point where you cut your losses.

*Edit*

Minor threadomancy, please don't flame me ;)

In regards to the OP, I spend more time at my LGS coaching new players into the game, and they are almost without fail between the ages of 10 and 13. Some can be a handful at first, but with the right guidance they will either come around or stop comming.

Im lucky that my main game group is full of very responsible people so its a great environment to tutor younger players in the dos and donts of gaming eticate. That being said I have coached young players in less cordial enviroments, and its much the same method used, repeat the same lesson over and over (lesson=be nice) until it becomes second nature to them.

The single worst experience i've had was at an event, and it wasn;t from a kid, it was an adult throwing a hissy fit because he got thrashed and taking it out on the first person he ran into after leaving the table (which was me). I was carrying my army from one table to another to prepare for my next game, I was carrying my army on a flat tray (you know the ones with the really shallow rims) and the sod knocked the tray from my hands. To make matters worse my army was mostly leads so they broke into pieces. This was a fully painted, based, and finished army... many months of hard work went into them and some yahoo thinks its ok to throw a hissy fit and smash up my army beacuse he had a bad game.

For the record he was i his 30's.

The net result of his actions, I had to drop out of the event, my army was simply no longer in a condition to play with and I didn't have enough time before my next game to make enough repairs to field it. The only reason I didn't hit the guy was because I was in shock.

Age is not the problem, never has been, never will be. People ar the problem, more precisely people who either have a short temper, a lack of self control or a lack of suitable moral ethics.
Some of these issue can be addressed with patience and time, some cannot, its not always easy to tell the two groups apart.

[Denzark]

Mal

You should have hit him. Remember, there are no problems in life that can't be sorted with the timely application of gratuitous violence.

[j-orge-287]

I would have asked for the money required to pay for the models hes destroyed...after beating the $hit out of him. These sort of people...i've heard stories about people stabbing each other, I can expect that-mostly because they're drunk. But destroying another persons pride, joy, blood sweat and tears because of losing a simple game :O unbelievable.

At my store, whenever I go in theres a new kid, only 8-10 years old, staff teches him a practice game, he looks around, asks the odd question and always seem polite. But one kid-regular guy about 14 years-has the biggest ego in the world because he one a trophy at a tourney once, talks down to everyone about tactics and lists etc. The worst part was I was having a game of 40k, i'd just set up and finished turn 1 he was bored and decided it was ok to deploy on a random table edge and destroys my command squad (via shooting) I wouldn't have minded much, but he then decided every one of my models had to take a morale check, which they didn't. So we entered a big argument and made me so angry that I just packed up and left. Next week I see the same guy get his guardsmen rolled up by a carnifex, he was desperatley trying to find a loophole in the rules that would keep the game in his favour (which it was anyway) with tears in his eyes and voice. You know the guy i'm talking about.

[Calypso2ts]

In my experience with children it is best to realize what they are - they are little adults.

I speak to them in the same respectful way I would an adult, and I have found that most of them respond well if you afford them the same courtesy you would to anyone else. I believe it is part of the responsibility of the community as a whole to establish manners.

This does not need to be rude, but if anyone touches your model it is generally polite to say "Hey, I don't mind if you want to have a closer look, but its usually polite to ask" Spilling a drink is something that should be seen way ahead of time and proactively dealt with. A child may be a bit less coordinated, but they tend to spill things in the same situations an adult would.

What grinds my gears more than anything are adults who fail to recognize that their behavior is a model for the kids. If they act in a mature appropriate fashion, so will the kids. There is nothing worse than a self important adult who fails to take the opportunity to teach and instead unnecessarily scolds, mocks or chastises a child.

Edit: For the record I do no have children.

It is a community, if you want to play with only adults then you are going to need to play at home.

[fuzzbuket]

thankyou calypso ^_^

from a 14yrold point of view a old smelly fat man (not aiming it at anyone but theres a lot ogf them who play :P) telling you what to do as if you were 6 andrefering to you as a child is the most annoying thing. and @Jorge just let the kid spend 1/3 of an hour looking for the page :P he probably has to leave beafor you :P

last time i was a GW there was 10-18 6-8 yr olds at a party painting and intro gamaing.. there enthusiasim for a spldijily painted space marine and watching my eldar get mauled was limitless!

-fuzz (anyhows as long as they dont break anything little enthusiastic young adluts are cool ^_^)

oh and bubbles swap armies for a game :P that should show him how to counter his own strategy- coaching him through you doing what he does and explaining it !


(after every game i ALWAYS tell my mate whos sadly gotten mauled how he could have peformed better!)

[LoverzCry]

If the kids know what to and what not to touch and mess with, then it's fine. But I know some adults that just don't know what the boundary line is. So really, it's debatable, but I hate little arses like that as well. In all honesty, I think it should be that kids under a certain age can't be in the stores without parental supervision.