Wolf Guard unbalanced and overpriced!

[wolflold]

Does any else also thinks Wolf Guards are an unbalenced and overpriced unit?

1) I think its just stupid, that you have to sacrifice an elite choise so your units can have a sargeant! If you're gonna take a WG unit its ok, but sometimes you want to use that slot for other usefull elite choises!

2) You have take at least 3 WG, what if i just want 2 units with WG...

3) The points cost are realy unbalenced! For example: a WG with terminator armour, power weapon and storm bolter for 33 pts is cheap, WG with terminator armour, TH/SS 63pts is expensive! If you want to make a 5 man "terminator assault squad" (3x claws, 2x TH/SS), for normal marines >200pts, for WG >270pts, 70pts more??? WHY???

My point is if you keep them as you buy them they're cheap but useless, if you give them gear to do stuff they're to expensive!

I say its either an slightly more expensive unit and "sargeants" don't take up an elite slot OR make em cheaper so its not a wast of the elite slot!

[mysterex]

Nope, not even vaguely.

A wolf guard with a power fist is what, 38 points. A chaos space marine champion is 55 points, a space marine sergeant is somewhere over 41 points depending on what assumptions you make about the additional cost it contributes to the base squad cost.

On top of this wolf guard get counter-charge and acute senses. And compared to the chaos space marine ATSKNF.

The problem with your comparison is that thunder hammer and storm shield is under-costed in the space marine codex. For pretty much most other options especially in power armour, they're about the same or better.

What's more unlike space marines, you have the option of leaving the "sergeant" out of the squad to make it cheaper.

[Lucian Kain]

I second that.

- Your obviously not designing the squad to thier strengths whats the point of that?
WolfGuard are designed to arrive via drop pods and shoot the crap out of things at short range and then recieve the charge and win the combat due to counter-charge and mainly normal initiantive CC weapons selection.

[jumai]

Just incidentally, I'm pretty sure they're the cheapest way to field a storm bolter squad by a good margin.

You also gloss over the part where countercharge + wolf banner makes a normal grey hunter with a powerfist outperform a 2 attack sergeant when it counts.

And the part where said grey fister doesn't have to use the "extra" plasma pistol that other peoples' sergeants can have, which is sort of awesome.

And the part where if you still think you're getting shafted, you can spend the 15 points others spend upgrading a sergeant to give a guy mark of the daemon weapon and be clearly better.

[Ludorious]

I think the only way it gets really costly is when you want to give them bikes or jump packs. I was seeing about making them into a Vanguard Equivalent today, but gut discouraged at the idea of paying 43 points per model without any weapon upgrades. I'd like it if there was a "if the squad numbers 5 or more models, all models may take jump packs for 10 points." I hope the wording here conveys that if the packs are bought for this price, all the models in the squad must buy them.

[Bard of Twilight]

I have played some games with wolves,and my conclusion is that they are not overpriced, unless you want to field 'em as aCodex Marines Terminator Squad. However instead of them (in that case) try using some Thunderwolf Cavalry.My game experience is that they are bound to do the job done .In the end, if we to had 40pts Terminators, there would have deen a lot of spamming, sth that is against the army's principles(think this: Logan + Th/SS Termies lists would have been everywhere...

[OXRS]

You pay for your versatility. You have the wargear of loyalists with the versatility of chaos, you get to have sergeants in terminator armour, and if you take Grimnar you get the chance to take the best troop unit in the game; veteran marines with pistol/ccw protecting two terminators with cyclone missile launchers. Yes, if you give them every damn toy they get really expensive. That's not what you should be doing.

[wolflold]

Its not i can't build a army or something! I just think its to bad the fact that they use up an elite slot :(. I don't mind choises, versatility is the thing that makes the SW cool. But to choose between a WG OR (venerable) Dreadnought/scouts/lone wolf is hard man...

[Melissia]

That's part of their cost-- look up the economics term "opportunity cost".

[Torcano]

So, you will only be happy if you can take a WG unit that doesn't take up a slot?

It sounds like you have some real indecision issues. How do you decide between the other Elite choices? There are more than 3 Heavy Support and Fast Attack choices too, how do you decide???!? You realize the whole point of having the army lists instead of set armies is so you CAN decide between units?

[mynameisgrax]

I've had a lot of success with the versatility that Wolf Guard give units they join. They're basically a reasonably priced Sgt with a lot of options, including powerfists and combi-guns.

I've also been experimenting with a 10 man wolf guard unit: 4 join grey hunter units, and the other 6 wolf guard are as follows, transported in a drop pod:

1. Terminator armor, powerfist, heavy flamer
2. Terminator armor, powerfist, heavy flamer
3. Terminator armor, pair of wolf claws
4. Terminator armor, pair of wolf claws
5. combi-melta
6. combi-melta

At 303 points (not counting the 4 wolf guard joining the grey hunter units), it's a remarkably versatile and effective unit, with the extra 2 guys with c-meltas and no terminator armor taken along as extra wounds and c-melta caddies.

[BlindGunn]

I have to agree with others - Taking up a slot in Elites is not an issue for my army as if I'm taking sargents, I'm taking a Wolf Guard unit anyway. I usually take the "extra" sargents to get the extra heavy weapon in my terminator squads.

:( To me, the only issue I have with Wolf Guard is that I can give them Jump Packs, but can't assign one as a leader for a Skyclaw Pack. (I've had one painted in my pack for years!) I guess I need to "promote" him to WGBL.

Hmmm. A squad of 10 Jump-Packed Wolf Guard all with Storm Bolters and mix of CC Weapons... :eek:

[Splug]

If anything, wolfguard are undercosted in most setups. They get to a correct price with thunder hammers and storm shields (yes, that implies the space marine codex assault terminators are extremely undercosted - their wargear costs 45 points, so you're paying -5 points for the veteran marine in terminator armor).

Also, for whatever reason wolf guard pay 10 points per power weapon, instead of the 15 that just about every other codex/squad pays. For 315 points, you can have a rhino cruising around with 10 space marine veterans carrying power weapons. On the first round of combat against a tactical squad - whether they charge or get charged - they will kill 10 space marines on average. They don't quite have the howling banshee effect since they're not I10, but being S4 with 2 attacks base, T4, and pulling a 3+ save still creates a very intimidating unit.

[titan eddy]

Idk cause in some cases you have good prices for units yet bad for others so i guess the price is unbalanced

really i hate wolf guard in general cause they r too cheesy

[Commissar Lewis]

I dunno, to me it makes sense as Wolf Guard are supposed to be elite and veteran Space Wolves that mentor the new and fairly inexperienced Space Wolves.

To me it seems points cost are based on how good things are for balance, and how easily acquirable for the army in question they are. Rarer items are more expensive. This is only my opinion, though.

[RealGenius]

Yeah, I'm not sure that the unbalanced AND overpriced argument is really substantiated.

I think Wolf Guard are well costed, and fit the fluff (as defined well). Like was said, hello opportunity cost.

Wolf Guard (especially with Logan) let you do crazy things like have a 10 Cyclone Missile Launcher army. Hopefully I'll soon get to test my 10 Assault Cannon army against it.

[titan eddy]

I think Wolf Guard are well costed, and fit the fluff (as defined well). Like was said, hello opportunity cost.


i agree with the wolf guard they r well costed and fit fluff

[Angelofblades]

Wow really? WG's as overpriced?
Someone needs to QQ less and learn to play more.

To date, WG are the best potential terminator unit.

Also what are you doing putting a WG in GH units? Drop the WG and take the 10 man GH units with 2 melta/plasma/flamer guns, PW, MoW and banner. That's all you need, MoW takes place of the PF Sgt, and is better than the PF in more cases than when you needed the PF.

WG can take combi-weapons as well, giving them an even better ability to pop armor, or deal with units such as, oh I don't know, Nobz units that have FnP etc.

You need to look at the big picture, instead of just marginilizing a unit.

[erwos]

Dear Wolfold,

Believe me, you'd rather have too many awesome choices in a section than not enough.

Love,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Chaos Player

[wolflold]

Hahaha :D very true!

[DarkLink]

Dear Wolfold,

Believe me, you'd rather have too many awesome choices in a section than not enough.

Love,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Chaos Player

And you'd rather have a lot of choices at all, good or not.

Love,
A friendly neighborhood Daemonhunters player

[warpcrafter]

All space marines are overpriced by 20%!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[Crevab]

Ahhaha Marines for the price of a current Scout? good one

[warpcrafter]

No, regular marines for the price of a terminator. Terminators for the cost of a captain. Damn cheap space marines. Grrrrrrrrr.......

[sebi81]

Overpriced would mean their price ist too high... You seem to think they are too cheap and their price is too low.

I think comparing to other new codizes like orks and guard the standard marines and terminators are ok. But it would have been fair to pay some points for the thunderhammer/stormshield upgrade. With the bad stormshields from earlier incarnations of the marines codex it was balanced not to pay extra points for this combination. But with the 3+ save they are better than a pair of claws and should cost more.

[Weafwolf]

The guy is getting kind of killed here, but I agree with him on a couple of points. First, it's hard to say that WG are the best terminators out there when a TH/SS terminator costs 23 points more than the SM version. That's not a small change; it's an enormous one. Even the Wolf Claw version is what, eight points more? I get that Games Workshop realized that the TH/SS build was undercosted, but more than half again as much?

My main issue is the 3-10 rule, however. I love the look of the hulking terminator with the cyclone missile launcher with the Long Fang pack. I love the fluffy thunder-hammer/combi-melta sergeant I built. I love the lightning claw/plasma pistol leader to go with the scouts (his plasma pistol is cheaper than theirs). Most of all, I think Arjac might be the best SW character there is. The problem is that none of those cool, fluffy models makes a lot of sense in the game when I can bring the standard 10 Grey Hunter with 2 meltas/Mark of the Wulfen/Wolf Standard unit. Even the terminator with the Long Fangs would get me a long way towards three more missile launchers.

When building lists, I have to decide whether I'm going for effectiveness or character, at least where the WG sergeants are concerned. In the end, though, everyone has to make that same decision in their armies, and I can't complain about a super-flexible, super-fluffy option in mine.

[Lerra]

I run Loganwing and I have to say that Wolf Guard are generally underrated. Most people try to run WG terminators as if they were Ultramarine terminators, but that's very much the wrong way to use them. There are a lot of things that you can do with WG that I rarely see - too many people try to make WG conform to things that the other SM codices can do, instead of creating a new role for them. Here are some of my favorite ways to run WG:

* 6 Wolf Guard with Combi-meltas in a drop pod for tank-hunting (only 23 points per model, plus the drop pod).
* Shooty WG terminators with relentless combi-plasmas (only 38 points per model).
* A squad of 10 wolf guard, with 4 set up as sergeants for Grey Hunter squads, and 6 who form their own scoring unit, with 6 guys in terminator armor including 2 with cyclone missile launchers. This makes for an amazing unit to hold objectives (especially the home objective). It's much tougher than a grey hunter squad, has the equivalent of 4 missile launchers, is better in CC, and it only costs about 250 pts.

[RedScorpionsGirl]

Does any else also thinks Wolf Guards are an unbalenced and overpriced unit?

1) I think its just stupid, that you have to sacrifice an elite choise so your units can have a sargeant! If you're gonna take a WG unit its ok, but sometimes you want to use that slot for other usefull elite choises!

2) You have take at least 3 WG, what if i just want 2 units with WG...

3) The points cost are realy unbalenced! For example: a WG with terminator armour, power weapon and storm bolter for 33 pts is cheap, WG with terminator armour, TH/SS 63pts is expensive! If you want to make a 5 man "terminator assault squad" (3x claws, 2x TH/SS), for normal marines >200pts, for WG >270pts, 70pts more??? WHY???

My point is if you keep them as you buy them they're cheap but useless, if you give them gear to do stuff they're to expensive!

I say its either an slightly more expensive unit and "sargeants" don't take up an elite slot OR make em cheaper so its not a wast of the elite slot!

Rebuttal:

1. It's not fantasy, everything has it's place. If you don't want a sgt. why worry about it? If you do, find something else to do with the others.

2. Most units have a minimum. For example, that's the min size for a unit of GK Terminators. Also min for chaos Term as well. Be thankful it's not the normal of 5, or you're not a DA player that has the 5/10 option.

3. HA! the terminator costs the same as wait for it.....

85 points for a Chaos Term Champion of Tz with Lightning Claws
61 points for a Grey Knight Brother Captain WITHOUT anything added to him
71 points for a Grey Knight Terminator with a Psycannon

I play DH, and I don't complain about spending those kind of points to get my units...


Oh, and there's this wonderful thing that the wolf guard can get melta bombs...regardless of whether they are in TA? That's pretty sweet.

And one more thing.... Black Templars don't even get sergeants.

[DarkLink]

The guy is getting kind of killed here, but I agree with him on a couple of points. First, it's hard to say that WG are the best terminators out there when a TH/SS terminator costs 23 points more than the SM version. That's not a small change; it's an enormous one. Even the Wolf Claw version is what, eight points more? I get that Games Workshop realized that the TH/SS build was undercosted, but more than half again as much?


GW realized that THSS Terminators were worth much more than 40pts each. Then they realized that 63pts each is a little bit too much.

However, there are so many good things in the SW codex, including Wolfguard with different wargear setups, that complaining about such a minor detail as this isn't ever going to come across as spoiled whining. Which of course is perfectly acceptable on the internet, but don't expect a whole lot of people to be sympathetic to this opinion.

[BlindGunn]

I think one of the most important things to note: You don't have to take Wolfguard if you don't want them!

I like them when I use them, but they don't appear regularly in my lists. I rather have more troops than Wolfguard most of the time. But I'm usually playing in the 1500 point range. If I were doing 2000 points or more - they would definitely show up more often.

[Daemonette666]

Overpriced would mean their price ist too high... You seem to think they are too cheap and their price is too low.

I think comparing to other new codizes like orks and guard the standard marines and terminators are ok. But it would have been fair to pay some points for the thunderhammer/stormshield upgrade. With the bad stormshields from earlier incarnations of the marines codex it was balanced not to pay extra points for this combination. But with the 3+ save they are better than a pair of claws and should cost more.
Space Marines are 16 points each, and if you take certain characters they get bonuses. Some give feel no pain, some give preferred enemy, and others give counter charge ability. I am taking space marines in as a whole, this inckludes Space wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templar Codexes. They get to rally automatically if no enemy is within 6", and if you catch them up, they act fearless, and they then have to take the armour saves Chaos Marine fearless troops have to take. CSM are very expensive, for what they can do when compared to standard SM from any of the codexes.

In the new Chaos Space Marine codex, they removed the good options like giving plague marines true grit. Units could be given skills from the universal rules section if paid for. I used to be able to give my Khorne Berserkers Counter Charge, or my Havocs Tank Hunter skill, and my Chaos Bikers Skilled Rider. Now Space Marines get all teh special abilities, just by adding a special character to the army. Some Space Marine armies get their abilities anyway, you just have to pick which one you want from a list.

Except for the Defiler, which they decided to remove its abilty to fire indirectly, the Space MArines have a better range of tanks and transports. I have no drop pods, while they get 3 types. My land raider holds 10 miniatures, theirs holds 12, and they get the crusader/redeemer as well, which can give Terminators frag grenades on the turn they charge. Everything is orientated towards Spacemarines getting better equipment and abilities than the aliens and heretics where ever possible.

Only a few armies have been the exception, namely the new Tyranids codex which includes some really nasty beasties, but still you can just shoot them down with your big guns, or send in a special character like mephiston, or someone like that, and bye-bye Tyranid lord or Trygon. Abaddon used to be really good in close combat against most enemy, now he is easily beaten by the likes of Sanguinius, Mephiston (if he kills Abaddon fast), and so on.

I would say that Space Marines stay their same points value, and give Chaos Space Marines - "and they shall no no fear" or something like it. I also miss not having the weapons that Chaos Space Marines used to have namely infantry portable Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons, and put machine spirit back in Chaos Space Marines landraiders.

Allow some of the Chaos Characters to allow certain elite/ fast attack or heavy support units to be used as troops. Maybe Doomrider for Chaos bikers, Abaddon for Terminators, and some new Chaos lord that can make havocs troop choices, and give them tank hunter skill. Then Blood Angels, Spaces Wolves and the rest of the Space Marines will not be the super power any more, they will have a force to rival them. Also make up a new elite unit type like the Sanguinary priests, but make then a chaos version that give Chaos units Feel no Pain, and the possibility of increased stats.

Yes I do think Space Marine Characters need to have their points cost increased.

[Angelofblades]

I don't think increasing the points cost of marines is the answer.

I think decrasing the points cost of everyone else's armies is what needs to be done.

It doesn't make sense to increase marine points, but ork boys still stand at 6 pts...

[DarkLink]

Don't know why someone would complain about vanilla SMs being underpriced. They're certainly not one of the powerhouse armies in the game right now, and they're probably one of the most balanced armies at the moment.

And for every advantage that the vanilla SMs have over Chaos, Chaos still has lots of solid units. Remember that there were just as many CSM players at the 'ard Boyz finals, and most of the SM armies relied on Vulkan, which is the one SM unit that anyone can agree is too good of a deal for the points you pay.




In the new Chaos Space Marine codex, they removed the good options like giving plague marines true grit.

Uh, you do realize that with a Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW, plague Marines have better than true grit, now?

And are you trying to argue that plague Marines aren't good because they don't have true grit?

[erwos]

Chaos still has lots of solid units.
Chaos still has _a few_ solid units. I wouldn't overstate the power of the codex - fast attack is worthless, and the elites don't really compete that well anymore. It just turns out that you can effectively spam the worthwhile stuff to about 2500-3000 points.

[DarkLink]

Fast attack is almost worthless, true. But even though the elites aren't the best in the game, they're still solid, as are most of the Troops and Heavy Support. And for HQs... well, I guess you've got Daemon Princes and a few good special Characters, though Sorcerers are fairly good, too. Just not as good as Daemon Princes, normally.

Plus, y'know, half the troops in the codex are units that would normally be Elite choices, but are better because they can score.

[erwos]

Fast attack is almost worthless, true. But even though the elites aren't the best in the game, they're still solid, as are most of the Troops and Heavy Support. And for HQs... well, I guess you've got Daemon Princes and a few good special Characters, though Sorcerers are fairly good, too. Just not as good as Daemon Princes, normally.
There's nothing particularly wrong with Chosen or Terminators - I'm just saying that they don't measure up to the top tier choices in other 5E codexes.


Plus, y'know, half the troops in the codex are units that would normally be Elite choices, but are better because they can score.
I disagree... you've seen the troops choices that BA and SW get. Again, back in 4E, you might have had the right of it, but no longer. Berzerkers and PMs are on par with what they get, not substantially better.

[sebi81]

you can't just compare the point cost of space marines and chaos space marines. chaos doesn't have a new codex. many units had point decreases in 5th edition. so we will have to see what the cost of a chaos marine in a new codex will be. or perhaps what special rules they will get.

[erwos]

you can't just compare the point cost of space marines and chaos space marines. chaos doesn't have a new codex. many units had point decreases in 5th edition. so we will have to see what the cost of a chaos marine in a new codex will be. or perhaps what special rules they will get.
I've never understood this logic. I have a valid army, and he has a valid army. They're comparable. If they weren't, Chaos shouldn't be a valid army in 5E without a new codex.

And to restore this to "on-topic", I sure wish Chaos had access to those unbalanced, overpriced Wolf Guard!

[murrburger]

Space Marines are 16 points each, and if you take certain characters they get bonuses. Some give feel no pain, some give preferred enemy, and others give counter charge ability. I am taking space marines in as a whole, this inckludes Space wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templar Codexes. They get to rally automatically if no enemy is within 6", and if you catch them up, they act fearless, and they then have to take the armour saves Chaos Marine fearless troops have to take. CSM are very expensive, for what they can do when compared to standard SM from any of the codexes.


You missed Dark Angels. ;) I don't think it's very fair to compare all the advantages of three codices to the Chaos book. Despite what many people say, they all play differently, and can field a wide range of army types. They're not all 'the same army', so you shouldn't treat them as such.

Also, Plague Marines. Remember that Sanuinary Priests are fairly expensive, and the bubble isn't as good as it appears to be.



In the new Chaos Space Marine codex, they removed the good options like giving plague marines true grit. Units could be given skills from the universal rules section if paid for. I used to be able to give my Khorne Berserkers Counter Charge, or my Havocs Tank Hunter skill, and my Chaos Bikers Skilled Rider. Now Space Marines get all teh special abilities, just by adding a special character to the army. Some Space Marine armies get their abilities anyway, you just have to pick which one you want from a list.


What Darklink said. The abilities Vanilla Marines get are fairly meh, except for Khan and Vulkan. The rest of their characters (Especially the UM ones) aren't very good.

Blood Angels pay for their advantages quite a bit. They may not look it on paper, but their army end up being smaller.

Space Wolves are good, but can't include a wolf guard in a rhino if they want both special weapons. (Which Chaos can do) I'm not saying CSM are better than GH, but it's just a little edge they have over them.



Except for the Defiler, which they decided to remove its abilty to fire indirectly, the Space MArines have a better range of tanks and transports. I have no drop pods, while they get 3 types. My land raider holds 10 miniatures, theirs holds 12, and they get the crusader/redeemer as well, which can give Terminators frag grenades on the turn they charge. Everything is orientated towards Spacemarines getting better equipment and abilities than the aliens and heretics where ever possible.


I think the Defiler got a lot better, actually. If only for its extra arms. I can't argue that SM don't get more tanks for cheaper, but they are paying a 5th edition price for them. (Compare C:CSM to C:DA and see for yourself)



Only a few armies have been the exception, namely the new Tyranids codex which includes some really nasty beasties, but still you can just shoot them down with your big guns, or send in a special character like mephiston, or someone like that, and bye-bye Tyranid lord or Trygon. Abaddon used to be really good in close combat against most enemy, now he is easily beaten by the likes of Sanguinius, Mephiston (if he kills Abaddon fast), and so on.


Mephiston is overrated. His lack of ++ save and eternal warrior really let him down. The Sanguinor is pretty good, but he's also 275 points in an already expensive army.



I would say that Space Marines stay their same points value, and give Chaos Space Marines - "and they shall no no fear" or something like it. I also miss not having the weapons that Chaos Space Marines used to have namely infantry portable Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons, and put machine spirit back in Chaos Space Marines landraiders.


Chaos have an extra pt of leadership and the option to take marks. (Sort of) I don't believe that they should have ATSKNF because they're traitors, and have left their honour behind. I'm fine with Cult Troops being fearless.

I actually like that Chaos have a different Land Raider, and that it's not just a carbon copy of the SM version. I think the more different they are from SM, the better.



Allow some of the Chaos Characters to allow certain elite/ fast attack or heavy support units to be used as troops. Maybe Doomrider for Chaos bikers, Abaddon for Terminators, and some new Chaos lord that can make havocs troop choices, and give them tank hunter skill. Then Blood Angels, Spaces Wolves and the rest of the Space Marines will not be the super power any more, they will have a force to rival them. Also make up a new elite unit type like the Sanguinary priests, but make then a chaos version that give Chaos units Feel no Pain, and the possibility of increased stats.


It seems you want the advantages of all three Marine codices in one book. This seems a little unfair. I feel that Chaos should have SW level/higher level psykers (they both use sorcery after all), a lord with some unique equipment to make up for his missing Storm Shield, and the cult characters that allow you to build a fully cult army or something. I don't know, I'm just running ideas.

Like I said before, I want them to be less like SM, not more. We don't need another clone army. I want to see totally different rules, and not jump on the USR blandwagon along with SM and BA.



Yes I do think Space Marine Characters need to have their points cost increased.


If you're talking about Vulkan, I agreee. He's too powerful. Other than him, most of the other characters are very expensive, or not very effective for their points.

Just wait for the inevitable 5th edition book that brings Chaos' psychic powers, rules, and points costs into line.

[Daemonette666]

Chaos Space Marines have been Neutered from their old 3rd/4th edition cross over codex to the "new 4th/ 5th edition cross over codex. The Chaos codex came out just before the new 5th edition rules came out, so they were really made for 4th edition.

The only benefit CSM troops got was 2 close combat weapons and a 2 handed weapon. Thier Icons cost a lot to allow a unit to get a mark of chaos. I think this should also make the troops fearless.

Armies like Blood Angels, although I agree that their really good troops cost as much as my good troops, they are the usually better than my Legion troops. They do not seem to get anything to counteracts their extra abilities and stats. My Plague marines have feel no pain, and blight grenades and are fearless all for 23 points, however to reduce the effectiveness of them they have Init 3, and can only get Plasma guns, flamers and melta guns as unit upgrades.

Sure my Thousand sons get AP 3 bolters, fearless and a 4+ invul save, but they are slow and purposeful, and lose the additional ccw, and if they lose the aspriring sorsceror they move at D6" only, and can not take any special or heavy weapons, and still cost way more than a standard CSM. The Aspiring Sorsceror costs 60 points, and then has to pay for atleast 1 psychic power as well, and he has only 1 wound.

Chaos Space Marines and Legions in the old editions of the game got access to Universal Special rules. These were taken from them in the current 4th edition codex, so they are not just like Space marines who through their various codexes NOW get access to them. CSM should be able to take one Universal special rule chosen and paid for from a list. You can then taylor your squads to the combat role you want to use them for. It used to be that way in the previous codex.

What I am trying to say is that even though some Space Marine Characters cost more, they now are not just super killing machines, they can also allow their troops to be beter at killing the enemy, and some can make normally non-scoring units into troop choices as well.

In general Space Marines in their various codexes do not have anything to off set the good thigns they get. They do not have reduced iniative, or a limited list of unit upgrades, or no ranged weapon ugrades at all. Many of their units get free Heavy or special weapons swaps.

I wold like to have the Chaos to have their version of Drop pods as well. Chaos are supposed to be an assault army after all.

Chaos Characters who are good, are also really expensive, and those that are only around 160 points like kharn can kill their own troops, or are easy to kill with ranged weapon attacks. They only have a 5+ invul and a 3+ armour save and a tgh of 4.

You can not say the basic Chaos lord or Sorsceror are too over powered, because I have had them killed by opponents in close combat who barely get a scratch from them before they are wiped off the board. As wel I can only get 2 HQ's choices in my army. Some Space Marines codexes allow you to get Elite choices models which are as good as some of my HQ units, or HQ units that do not count toward their HQ limit. Blood Angels can take 4 HQ Units. This does seem a bit biased.

Chaos are no longer the Elite Assault army they used to be.

[DarkLink]

I disagree... you've seen the troops choices that BA and SW get. Again, back in 4E, you might have had the right of it, but no longer. Berzerkers and PMs are on par with what they get, not substantially better.

Plague Marines are still one of the best troop choices in the game, easily. Berserkers are very good, too, though not as good as Plague Marines.

[Daemonette666]

Plague Marines are still one of the best troop choices in the game, easily. Berserkers are very good, too, though not as good as Plague Marines.
I went through all the codexes except for Dark Elves, Necrons, and Tau which I still have to find in one of my cupboards. After checking through all of them, I found the most deadliest "Troop unit choices in order are as follows:

1: Blood Angels Death Company - 1 point less than a khorne berserker, same stats line, and also get furious charge. They can have either a bolter or bolt pistol, but get relentless, so they can rapid fire the bolters and charge. They also have feel no pain, and Rage and can get jump packs for the normal price of 15 points or a drop pod for the munit for just 35 points. The only draw back for them is they never count as a scoring unit.

2: It is a toss up between Khorne Berserkers, and Blood Angels Assault Squads who I think lead by a small margin. The BA Assault squad, are the equivelant of CSM Raptors, but they get access to better unit weapon upgrade options. They can deep strike and only deviate D6", and on a roll of a 1 after setup, they can get Furious charge and Fearless and their base cost is only 18 points each for jump troops.

3: The khorne Berserkers get a WS of 5, and Furious charge and fearless, but cost 21 points each, can only move as infantry unless you put them in a transport. The only unit upgrades are up to 2 plasma pistols for the standard berserkers, and the Aspiring champion who costs and extra 15 points, can get a plasma pistol, and either a power weapon or a power fist. The other upgrades like melta bombs, everyone gets and the personal icon is just like a teleport homer.which other armies get the option for their tactical squads.

4: Noise Marines, but you pay a lot of points for them. 20 points fro fearless and +1 iniative troops. +5 more points to give them Sonic Blasters, and 40 points for the Blast master, which is really not woth the point in smaller games. The aspiring champion who costs +15 points and can take power weapon or power fist upgrade can also take for +15 points the best close range weapon in the game. A template str 5 AP3 assault 1 Doom Siren. Mind you this all adds up, so if they are not in a transport they get shot up really easily, and usually get targetted first, and cost a packet.

5: Khorne Blood letters as they all have power weapons, Fearless, furious charge, and can get musicians and an icon. However the 5+ invul save means they get shot to peaces easily. The WS of 5 is good, and are only 16 points each, providing you an get them into close combat before they get shot to pieces, they are good, but you ahve to get them inot close combat, and they do not have any attack grenades.

6: Daemonettes for their fearless, Attack and defence grenades, and rending claws, and sheer number of attacks and fleet rule. Icon and musician as well again. The only things that are bad are the low invul save, and their low Str and Tgh of 3.

7: This is where I would put 3 different troop choices tying each other. Plague Marines, Plague Bearers, and Thousand Sons marines They are all fearless, have either feel no pain or 4+ invul save. TH sons get AP3 bolters relentless, but are slow and purposeful and get no unit upgrades, and only 1- 2 handed weapon. You also have to take an aspiring sorsceror who can help if lucky with the psychic spells, but costs too much for his abilities. The Plague Marines (PM) are only init 3, and can only get plasma gun, flamer or melta gun for 2 troopersas upgrades. The Champ is expensive to upgrade, and his limited equipment upgrades cost alot. The Plague Bearers get a 4+ poinsoned sword, and one can get a 2+ poinsoned sword for +10 points, they are slow and purposeful and are only init 2 with 1 attack at WS 3. Sure they have Tgh 5, but the 5+ invul usually is not enough, and the feel no pain is usually denied as enemy use big guns and power weapons normally to kill them off.

8: Tyranid Genestealers and Tyranid Warriors are good for their points. With some very inexpensive unit upgrades, they can really wipe other enemy off the floor. Gene stealers get move through cover, fleet and infiltrate, and strike with 2 - Init ,6 WS 6, Rending attacks.Tyranid warriors can reduce enemy psyker abilities, be deployed by drop pod, and get some real nasty weapn upgrades , and have multiple wounds.

9: Ork boys and basic Space Marines lie here, unless the space marines are from a special codexes like Black Templars with their special vows. Blood angles with red thirst, Space Wolves grey hunters with acute sensors and conter attack - these 3 go with the plague marines and thousand sons in 7th place. Orks get fearless if over 11 models, and they are quite good in close combat. Sure they can not shoot for s**t, but al their weapons including upgrades are assault, and their nob can get either a power fist, or a +2 str CCW. The standard space marines can split to become more tactically versatile, get weapon upgrades either for free of very inexpensively, and they get "and they shall know no fear". Put this together with thier basic stats, and transport options like drop pods, and they are a good solid troop choice. I suppose Eldar Dire Avengers would fit in here as well, however they can not really get any anti-tank upgrades, but can be transported in hover tanks, and can shoot 3 shots with the appropriate point upgrade.

I can not comment on Dark Eldar, who might have some nasty Close combat troops. Tau, from experience, arevvery weak when in close combat or when being shot at, but good at taking enemy down from shooting. Imperial Guard, are really the poor mans troops. Low stats, low morale, and not so good at shooting unless you take veterans. They do get some nice weapon upgrades and can take heavy weapons squads in their platoons., but once you get in amonst them or they come under heavy fire, they just fold up - usually. Necrons have some really annoying troops. They keep getting back up especially if there is an orb or a monolith nearby, and their Gaus weapons can really hurt. The basic stats of them put them probably in line with Space marines but thier weapons and "we will be back" puts them in equal 7th place I would say.

I can not think of any other armies, but the rest of the basic troops are what I call lfill in troops, taken when you need to use up a few extra points, or you want a themed game.

Everyone has their favourites and some will disagree with what I think as to which are the best "Troop units" in the game. We all are biased a little either to our own forces, or against our own troops to show we do the best we can against some really bad enemy troops.

Well I had my say.

[DarkLink]

Well, amongst Troops there's a huge difference between "best" and "deadliest". And I won't even mention that "most deadliest" is poor english:p.

Now, if you're talking pure killing power, then that's not a bad list, though Nob Bikerz should probably be on there somewhere, too. But when you also take into account both survivability and the fact that troops are the only things that can score, your list will probably change quite a bit. And if there's one thing that Plague Marines do better than just about anything else in the game is survive and score, and they have decent firepower on top of that.

[Daemonette666]

Well, amongst Troops there's a huge difference between "best" and "deadliest". And I won't even mention that "most deadliest" is poor english:p.

Now, if you're talking pure killing power, then that's not a bad list, though Nob Bikerz should probably be on there somewhere, too. But when you also take into account both survivability and the fact that troops are the only things that can score, your list will probably change quite a bit. And if there's one thing that Plague Marines do better than just about anything else in the game is survive and score, and they have decent firepower on top of that.
I admit that you do have something there, but in the games where I have tried to hold objecties with them, the enemy generally send in their big boy elites with power weapons, Str 6 close combat weapons, even Calidus Assassins, ans so on. Either that or I get shot to pieces by Str 10 weapons that ignore my feel no pain and tgh of 5,this includes IG tanks and artillery.

I have found that my Thousand sons, even though they have less range, and no anti-armour weapons to speak of and can not wound very well in close combat (except maybe the Aspiring Sorsceror), hold on onto the objective for 2 rounds longer than the plague marines.

I suppose you have to look at both their ability to take the objective and hold it as well. So based on what I had worked out for best troops, then death Company can not claim objectives just deny them, so the BA assault squads and Khorne berserkers are a close tie for 1st place.

I also forgot that you can make some units not normally troop choices into troop choinces, and therefore allow them to hold objectives. So correct that Deathwing Terminators (providing that Belial is in your army) are the best troop choice about.

So that also means Space Marine Bike Squads who start with 5 models or more are a troop choice if Kor'sarro Khan is taken as a HQ. I don't think the Black Templar,s Blood Angels or Space Wolves have any Characters that can do this, but it is a very powerful ability. O hand Eldar Guardian bike squads can be troops as well. A lot weaker than most, and shuriken catapults/Cannon are not the ultimate weapon, but they can fly in and grab objectives when you need them. nice ability for them as well.

Don't mention any typos I may have made, as there are usually 1 or 2 in there. and I don't spell check these things because you can not post the message if you take to long writing it up.

[DarkLink]

There are definitely times where having few, tough models isn't as good as having more, cheaper models. Or when having cover and FNP doesn't help, either. Really, the best troop is the one that works best in your army, which can be almost anything.

I would just say that there are some units that are very easy to make work in an army, and plague Marines are one of them. They're tough, fearless, and have good firepower, for relatively cheap considering what you get. Of course, I think the only reason I'm talking about Plague Marines at all is because the true grit thing came up earlier:rolleyes:.

Regardless, I don't think anyone could argue Plague Marines are a bad unit, even if they don't fit in your army.

[Daemonette666]

There are definitely times where having few, tough models isn't as good as having more, cheaper models. Or when having cover and FNP doesn't help, either. Really, the best troop is the one that works best in your army, which can be almost anything.

I would just say that there are some units that are very easy to make work in an army, and plague Marines are one of them. They're tough, fearless, and have good firepower, for relatively cheap considering what you get. Of course, I think the only reason I'm talking about Plague Marines at all is because the true grit thing came up earlier:rolleyes:.

Regardless, I don't think anyone could argue Plague Marines are a bad unit, even if they don't fit in your army.
I suppose it also depends upon which army your opposing as well. I prefer to use Normal CSM with an icon of Choas Glory backed up by Noise Marines and Thousand Sons if I have the points. I get a good mix of weapons and troops who get a 4+ invul when the enemy run into close combat.

I usually only use plague marines when facing opponent like Eldar, basic Space marines armies including DA but not BA, SW or BT, and I use them against maybe guard armies which do not field too many tanks or artillery. I also use them in games of Apocalyps, when I can take Daemon army allies and include epidemus to get the bonuses from him. I can not seem to be able to use them well. They can not take objectives well for me, and generally only assist other units in doing so. and I find they can only soak up so much damage in a defensive positoin guarding an objective. I do not know if they are worth 23 points each to use a unit in a small game most of the time.

But that is just me, I still like playing using some of my old Chaos tactics of assault to wipe the enemy from the table, and then they have nothing left to hold objectives, and you can then move your forces onto them after that. Old habbits die hard.