2000 Deff Skull Trukk List

[Zijan]

Hey all. After a reasonably heated discussion (resolved) with the author of this list (melissia), posted today on the Blog, I figured I'd bring it over here to get a real discussion going. Here's the list:

HQ:
Big Mek
-- Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor
Big Mek
-- Kustom Force Field, Power Klaw, 'Eavy Armor

Elites:
15 Loota Boyz
15 Loota Boyz

Troops:
11 Slugga Boyz w/Nob and Trukk
-- Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor
-- Trukk w/Red Paint
11 Slugga Boyz w/Nob and Trukk
-- Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor
-- Trukk w/Red Paint
11 Slugga Boyz w/Nob and Trukk
-- Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor
-- Trukk w/Red Paint
11 Slugga Boyz w/Nob and Trukk
-- Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor
-- Trukk w/Red Paint
10 Slugga Boyz w/Nob and Trukk
-- Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor
-- Trukk w/Red Paint
10 Slugga Boyz w/Nob and Trukk
-- Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor
-- Trukk w/Red Paint

Heavy Support:
Battle Wagon
-- 4x Big Shootaz, Lobba
Battle Wagon
-- 4x Big Shootaz, Lobba
Looted Wagon
-- Boomgun, 2x Rokkit Launchaz, 'Ard Case, Red Paint Job

Now I know the first few comments will be "spam spam spam spammity spam spam" and so on, so here's the deal: keep it fast, keep it competitive, and keep it as close to theme as possible while making an equally effective army list that eliminated the repetition while keeping the redundancy.

Theme (I think): Deff Skulls with a heavy Evil Sun influence

[Melissia]

Spam is fluffy. That's really all there is to my position on the subject. I spam Sisters . I spam Orks. I spam Guard. Lots of bolter attacks, lots of close combat attacks, and lots of lasguns/tanks/heavy weapons/artillery. That, to me, is what makes 40k...

Sure, I can't exactly have a very big horde of Orks in trukks compared to on foot, but that's okay because they're protected by a 4+ cover save and the armor of their trukk, as well as the trukk going faster anyway so they'll be more likely to make it there.

Also! People complained about how the trukks are too easy to destroy. Here's the way I think of it when I see comments like that:

Half of all Guard lascannons will miss the target entrely (BS3).
Half of all Guard lascannons will be deflected by the KFF (4+ cover save)
1/6th of all Guard lascannons that hit and get through the KFF will not penetrate
Half of all Guard lascannons that penetrate will not destroy the Trukk.

So that means each individual Guard lascannon has a 10% chance of penetrating and destroying a Trukk guarded by a KFF (with a smaller chance of glancing and destroying due to open topped). There are six trukks in the list, all six of them covered by KFFs.

Similarly, Guard Autocannons have about a 6% chance to have a penetrating hit that destroys the vehicle, roughly 12% total (as it fires two shots). Gonna have to have a lot of autocannons if you want to ensure that a sizeable number of trukks go down. And even then, you still have to deal with the boyz, who get cover saves no matter where they go.

[Zijan]

I'm curious to your thought process on objective-based missions. Do you plan on camping with one of the trukk squads? I know I brought this up earlier, but to me it's a glaring weakness in the list. Unfortunately, your trukks aren't fast enough or survivable enough to pull of an Eldar-style objective grab in turn 5.

In addition, you mentioned that you were considering taking Kans, but instead opted to take the Looted Wagon instead. Was that just a speed issue or is there something else?

I just want to know what thought you had when writing this list, so I can better understand the theme, especially since you apparently wrote a much longer and more elaborate article.

Edit: I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on spam being fluffy. You feel strongly that it is, and it makes for an enjoyable game, while I find it un-fluffy and boring to play with and against. In that regard, I move to drop discussion on "spam" and focus on the strength and weaknesses of an army that you obviously feel very strongly about.

[Melissia]

You will never convince me that spam is unfluffy, because you are wrong-- you cannot prove your position because "spam" is how the fething Ork army works.

"Spam" is how Guard works.

"Spam" is how Tyranids work.

Quite frankly, it's unfluffy NOT to spam with these armies. And even for the rest?

It's unfluffy to have each Tactical squad kitted out differently with each having a different specialization-- Tacticals are generalists who need to be able to handle every tactical situation.

You pretty much have no choice but to "spam" Battle Sisters (And it's more fluffy anyway).

It's more fluffy to "spam" berzerkers than to mix them in with other cult units, and same with the rest of them, and with daemons, too.

That leaves Necrons (who spam out of necessity because of their aged codex, but even then "spam" fits their fluff quite well), Tau (same as Necrons), and the two Eldar factions, which are the only armies where one can even REMOTELY argue that spam is unfluffy-- but even then you'd be arguing an uphill battle, and you'd probably fail against a dedicated Eldar fluff fanatic.

This discussion probably belongs in the general section of the forum-- I posted a thread about it there earlier today.




Regardless, as I said I wrote this list two weeks ago. I don't know what was going through my mind.

[Zijan]

There's little point to continuing this discussion anyway. Your post focused almost exclusively on why my view of spam is entirely wrong and your view is correct, an issue I suggested we leave behind.

I'm sorry you can't remember a list you wrote two weeks ago, or anything pertaining to it. I think that it would have made for a great conversation, however you seem unwilling to even acknowledge that my focus in the previous post had little to do with "spam" at all.

I know I will never convince you of my opinion on spam. Don't bother trying to convince me that your opinion is correct either. That was never the intention of this thread, and it's unfortunate that you felt it needed to be. This was to be simply an exercise in creativity, but that point was lost on you. I must not have spelled it out clear enough in the primary post.

If you want the last word, feel free to post away. I know I will be walking away from this discussion knowing that I entered it with the best of intentions and encountering stiff resistance. Good luck with your list building and war games, and have a good summer.

Zijan

[Melissia]

Not the last word. I just misread what you posted.