Are Vampire Counts the new Necrons?

[carrotcolossus]

I think 8th ed is a great set of rules. However, I don't think there is anything in the new rules that benefits VCs (unlike almost all the armies) and in fact, lots of the changes undermines the strengths of VCs so that it isn't broken like TKs (who will be getting a new book soon anyway) but leave it mediocre. That isn't to say that a skilled player still can't win games (as I am a skilled player and I know I will win games) but that the army book doesn't give you any particular advantages.

My fear is that VCs will become the Necrons of WHB - awesome for their brief time in the sun but soon outclassed by almost everything else. Am I being overly pessimistic? Are there other armies that don't get anything from the new rules too (I'm guessing Brettonians might feel the same except for big increase to magic defence)?

P.S. My reasons for my opinion are as follows.

Magic
VCs rely on magic so more random amounts of power dice make it much harder to have a reliable strategy.
Using one die to cast spells will pretty much go the way of the dodo because being unable to cast any more spells will cripple your army
Having only one spellcaster with any given spell makes it harder for an army that relies on magic so heavily and almost makes necromancers redundant
Dispel dice are much more easily available and for some armies (like Orcs) they can utterly shut down your magic phase which is sure fire death for VCs

Combat
VCs rely on a war of attrition and combats are much more lethal now, meaning more casualties. VC units don't hit anywhere as hard as any other army in the game so now units are going to get mauled more often (and makes units like Chaos Warriors all but unkillable).
Combats always going with I affects VCs badly because of their terrible I.
Both the above effects have impact on crumbling (more attacks before I strike means more casualties and more models dying) and magic (now I don't have the magical power to restore units hammered in combat).
VC units are either too expensive or too useless to bother going horde sized for what they can do.
No more autobreaking and +1 combat res for fear is nowhere near a good a replacement effect.

[Herald of Nurgle]

Let me just point out that units such as Necromancers which buy their spells aren't under the same restriction of 1 per army. That is one reason why you'll arguably see MORE of them on the board.

[Old_Paladin]

I think people are going to have to change the way they play vampires; but I don't think they become the worst army (and even if they are the worst, they're still pretty good).

Yes, everyone can get the Invocation spell and the raise zombies spell (as the default spell) and Necro's get to buy spells and thus cannot follow any 're-roll results' rule.

The types of leaders you want will change; goodbye vampires, hello multiple vampire lords, Necro's and Wright Kings.

Troops are going to be almost always ghouls; better toughness, weapon skill and init, plus poison attacks; they have the same number of attacks as Skellies with spears (and are cheaper). Fear might not be as powerful, but it will still help (against ghouls, it will let them hit on 3+ and the enemy would be hitting on 5+).

Summon undead hoard is the new go-to spell for vampires (and why you need a lord). You have more then a 50% chance of getting it off with three dice and a level 3 caster.

If you have a second vampire lord he MUST take lore of Death; this way you can burn through a bunch of power dice, then death magic can be used to kill things and BOOM, you have more power dice again (it says your pool can never go over 12, it doesn't say the number of dice used in a magic phase can never go over 12!).


Don't forget the Corpsecart, it might be a bound spell and need a power die or two; but giving ASF to your low init army helps solve that problem.

[Jwolf]

I think you might want to look into some of the enormous advantages that this edition gives Vampires. In early testing, they have horrifyingly effective magic phases and terrifying melee abilities. Nothing like ASF and WS10 on a unit to make it terrifyingly effective. And having a unit with ASF and WS 10 is not nearly as bad as the other things that can be done by Vampires, so I am often letting this go to stop more scary things.

[Aldramelech]

I dont think your half as bad off as you think, I play Dwarfs!

[mathhammer]

I see your Vampires and raise you a Tomb King.

[Amedeus40k]

I played my first 8th Edition 2500pt game with my Vampire Counts last night. I was up against Bretonians so "fear", and "terror" were ineffective, at least with the Grail Knights etc. I've only been playing Fantasy off, and on since 5th Edition. So I'm still pretty wet behind the ears when it comes to playing this game, and I'll be honest, I thought the games was "ok", and wasn't a huge fan of it, but still played since my group played occasionally. That was until I played this edition. Have the VC been nerfed? Oh, I don't think so. They just need to be played a bit differently. The changes in close combat have significantly changed the game in my opinion, and for the better. 20+ model units even when charged can still get a large amount of attacks in, and depending on how well you roll, you can send that charging unit packing. I agree, we will probably see more VC Lords, Wight Kings, and Necromancers. The basic vampire just doesn't have as much bang for the buck anymore. I've only played one game of the new edition so I'm still getting used to it all, but I think the VC army while not being extremely powerful in one area or another, is a good well rounded army. Capable of putting up a good fight against any fantasy army. IMO.


I'm still trying to understand how the new Magic Rules affect the Vampire Counts. Let me see if I got this straight. All vampires know "Nehek", with a few exceptions, and this is in addition to what ever spells they generate before the beginning of each battle. Because this is a innate ability, this overides the "one spell" per army rule. Right? Necromancers get one spell, and any additional necromancy spells must be purchased. Since "Nehek" is a necromancy spell, it can be cast multiple times by the same wizard on the same unit. Am I getting this right? Thanks in advance for your help.

[Tacoo]

I see your Vampires and raise you a Tomb King.

I see your Tomb King and raiser you a FaQ, Giving you auto-cast spells and multiple CoS

[Amedeus40k]

Ok, I've had a chance to confirm how the new Magic rule of one spell type per army, and how it works with the Vampire Counts. As stated before, all vampires, and vampire lords get the necromancy spell Invocation of Nehek as a freebee. For every level of Wizard they are after that you may roll for a single spell, and this is where the one spell per army rule comes into effect. Necromancers, because they must purchase their spells may have the same spells as any other necromancer, and because the spells are from the necromancy list, they can be cast multiple times, and by the same caster if you wish.

So in effect, I don't see how this changes how the VC are played all that much. Of course, I could be wrong as I'm still learning how to play them, and someone else may see a problem with it. All in all, I'm extremely happy with this new edition. I've been an avid GW hobbyist for 10years, the majority of which has been spent playing 40K, and this is the first time I can honestly say I've truly been bitten by the Fantasy bug. It's awesome! :)