Turboboosting in the scout move

[Soam]

Obviously we all know that it is possible to turbocharge during the scout move. My question is how long does the cover save last? For instance, If I turbocharge in the scout move can I then move and shoot during my turn AND benefit from the cover save in the opponents turn? This is assuming I go first. I cannot find any specific reference to this situation.

[Aegis]

My first take would be that unless you turbo boost in the turn immediately before your opponents, then no. Mostly because if your bikes fire, the have to slow down, and would thus no longer be moving fast enough to gain the save.

[Exlorn]

I would absolutly agree with Aegis from a common sense stand point or fluff or whatever you want to call it.

But I do know that the Turboboost rules say that you get a 3+ cover save in the following enemy shooting phase. I am certainly not beyond all doubt on this right now, but I would say right now that I think they would get the cover save, based on the rules.

[Latro_]

Its a bit of an icky one, think the common sense is they dont unless they TB again.

[Nabterayl]

Quoted for reference:


TURBO-BOOSTERS*
Units mounted on bikes and jetbikes may utilise turbo-boosters to move at extreme speed. When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase. Controlling their bike at such speeds takes all their concentration and skill, however, so they cannot move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assaults or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn. In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ to represent the difficulty of hitting such fast-moving targets. In that enemy Shooting phase, however, bikers lose the ability of going to ground, and automatically pass Pinning tests. A unit using turbo-boosters must end its move at least 18" away from its starting point to claim this cover save, as it relies on flat-out speed.

I'm sure we all agree with Aegis from a common sense standpoint. I assume most of us would play that way in an actual game. But can we get there textually?

The question is, what is "the following enemy Shooting phase?"

One position would be that it means "the next Shooting phase the enemy gets." Under that interpretation you could indeed turbo-boost in the Scout move, move regularly during your Movement phase because you won the first turn, and receive a 3+ cover save during the second half (your opponent's) of Turn 1 because that was the Shooting phase that "followed" your turbo-boost.

The other would be that it means "the Shooting phase that comes before you get another Movement phase."

I think both of the above readings fit the definition of "following," and both give us the common sense result that "the following enemy Shooting phase" cannot mean "each following enemy Shooting phase" (i.e., I'm sure we all agree that you can't turbo-boost on turn 1 and get a 3+ cover save on turn 7 as a result).

The best textual argument I can think of right now is that, given two readings that both fit the definition of "following," one of which supports the flavor text of the rule and one of which does not, the definition that fits the flavor text should be chosen.

Anybody have anything better, from a textual point of view?

[BuFFo]

RAW says Soam is 100% correct.

Real Life says he isn't.

This is another case of rules lawyering a game not meant to be lawyerd in this fashion. No one, especially tourneys, in real life would ever let that happen. This is another case of "internet only" theory crafting.

So kudos for finding something like this. Shame it won't help you in real life.

[Soam]

I definately agree with Nabt on the common sense part of this rule. The unfortunate part is that the common sense ruling is adding words to the rule. The RAW is 'In the following enemy Shooting phase.' So then you ask some qualifying questions:

1. Have I turboboosted? Yes
2. Has there been an enemy shooting phase since I turboboosted? No

The Scout rule doesn't give us any textual help either, simply stating that the unit moves exactly as if it would in the movement phase. By the RAW a cover save should be given. Now i'm playing devils advocate here so dont take this personally.

To BuFFo: In my original post I wasn't trying to be right or wrong, I was merely asking what would happen. In this post i'm trying to find a concrete answer. In all honesty I would never play like this. I do, however, like to beat a rules lawyer at his own game. Which is the reason why I started this post.

[GrandmasterRay]

According to the rule as it is written, the bikes would get a 3+ save because there has not been a following enemy shooting phase. This sucks. It should say "receives said save until it's controlling player's next movement phase".

[BuFFo]

I definately agree with Nabt on the common sense part of this rule. The unfortunate part is that the common sense ruling is adding words to the rule. The RAW is 'In the following enemy Shooting phase.' So then you ask some qualifying questions:

1. Have I turboboosted? Yes
2. Has there been an enemy shooting phase since I turboboosted? No

The Scout rule doesn't give us any textual help either, simply stating that the unit moves exactly as if it would in the movement phase. By the RAW a cover save should be given. Now i'm playing devils advocate here so dont take this personally.

To BuFFo: In my original post I wasn't trying to be right or wrong, I was merely asking what would happen. In this post i'm trying to find a concrete answer. In all honesty I would never play like this. I do, however, like to beat a rules lawyer at his own game. Which is the reason why I started this post.

Sorry I misqouted you.

Either way, you showed me something I did not see online yet, so for me its pretty new and ingenious. Too bad if anyone was serious about doing this, their opponent would have to be either very new or messing around to allow it to happen.

[GrandmasterRay]

I think if someone really brought this up and tried this, I'd come over the table... and fight them... To the death................ And their parents too.

[Dingareth]

Actually, I disagree with y'all. You wouldn't get the Cover Save. My reasoning is the second sentence in the rule, "may move up to 24" in the Movement phase." Is a Scout Move done in the Movement phase? No. If you were to Turbo-Boost and then Turbo Boost again in the Movement phase, for a total of 48", than yes I agree you would. But as a Scout Move is not done in the Movement phase, you have not fufiled the crietria in order to get the save in the following Shooting phase.

[BuFFo]

Touche! Stick a fork in this cuz its done.

[Aegis]

Actually, I disagree with y'all. You wouldn't get the Cover Save. My reasoning is the second sentence in the rule, "may move up to 24" in the Movement phase." Is a Scout Move done in the Movement phase? No. If you were to Turbo-Boost and then Turbo Boost again in the Movement phase, for a total of 48", than yes I agree you would. But as a Scout Move is not done in the Movement phase, you have not fufiled the crietria in order to get the save in the following Shooting phase.

But could it not be argued that the Scout move is a 'movement phases' of sorts?

[GrandmasterRay]

no. it is a scout move, not a phase at all. yep. The hammer has been dropped and sentances served.

[Nabterayl]

Sure, except that the rulebook FAQ says you may turbo-boost in your Scout move, and the Scouts rule itself says "after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators) but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy."

[GrandmasterRay]

Where in your post did you verify that the scout move happens in a movement phase? Says "the unit moves the same way it does in a movement phase", not "it is a movement phase that happens before the game"

[Dingareth]

God, I wish that GW would stop using the word as. Between this and Counter Attack people's inability to understand the linguistical basics of English is really starting to bother me...

Is a Scout Move done in the Movement phase?
No. It is done before the game.

Has a unit that Turbo-Boosted in their Scout move Turbo-Boosted in the Movement phase that directly preceds your opponet's Shooting phase?
No. it Tubro-Boosted before the game

Does the unit get a Cover Save from Turbo-Boosting?
No.

This is a nonissue people...

[Nabterayl]

Fair point. I'm inclined to say that, since GW adopted the "you can turbo-boost in the Scout move" FAQ, they probably just worded their intent poorly, but from a textual standpoint, I'll concede. Cleverly done.

EDIT:

This is a nonissue people...

Yes, of course it is. We're just stretching our literalist muscles.

[Dingareth]

Alright, sometimes I just forget that people aren't as dense as my job has led me to believe they are.

[Exlorn]

TURBO-BOOSTERS*
Units mounted on bikes and jetbikes may utilise turbo-boosters to move at extreme speed. When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase. Controlling their bike at such speeds takes all their concentration and skill, however, so they cannot move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assaults or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn. In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+ to represent the difficulty of hitting such fast-moving targets. In that enemy Shooting phase, however, bikers lose the ability of going to ground, and automatically pass Pinning tests. A unit using turbo-boosters must end its move at least 18" away from its starting point to claim this cover save, as it relies on flat-out speed.

Q. Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout
move?
A. Yes they now can, but remember that they
have to remain more than 12” away from the
enemy as they move.

Copied from the FAQ. It doesn't say to only use the rules for movement and ignore the cover save. If you are trying to argue that a scout move is not a movement phase doesn't make sense to me. The only part of the rule that mentions a movement phase is the 24" move, and we know from that FAQ you can do that.

I would say that if my opponent went first I would force my opponent to turbo boost again in his turn to gain the 3+ cover save during my turn. My argument would be that since it references the "following" enemy shooting phase that I hadn't had one during his player turn and he had wasted his 3+ benefit during his turn. If he wanted to continue to argue it textually I would lose, because the rules say that he gets it. I would then quit the game before I had even had 1 turn.

I would propose we switch the discussion based on you turboboosting and then going first and decide rather if you turbo boost and then the enemy takes his first turn do you benefit from the 3+. I would say you do. The whole scout move is not a movement phase is BS as I stated above. What does everyone else think about that. It seems much more reasonable from a common sense standpoint to allow that (and the rules support it if you ask me).

[GrandmasterRay]

I'm going to stop arguing this. It was fun until exlorn brought us back to 2 pages ago. I have a feeling that once we come full circle to the END point, someone else will need more explaining.

[oni]

A Scout move is just that... a Scout move. This happens outside of normal game play before the 1st turn begins and therefore any added benefits will be null once actual game play starts. Just because a Scout move can be done like a normal move is irrelevant.

[Nabterayl]

I think I've come to the conclusion that there is no textual answer to this problem. Dingareth had me until I checked the actual movement rules, which also say "move up to X inches in the Movement phase." The wording for infantry (page 11), jump infantry (page 52), bikes (page 53), and turbo-boosters (page 76) is all worded the same. Using Dingareth's logic, therefore, it seems to me that nobody can move in the Scout move, as all of the "normal move" rules specify "in the Movement phase."

I agree with everybody about what the common-sense/real-world/GW FAQ answer is. But it seems to me that we may have found a situation where there is no textual way to get there. C'est la GW.

[Aegis]

Alright! Possibly dead horse coming in!

Just looking briefly over the paragraph for scout move, it states the scout may make a normal move. So, would a turbo boost be a normal move in this case?

I know at this point it is more devil's advocate (and I do not use models that turbo boost, much less scout, so I have no personal gain in this). But, I find this is an interested discussion, considering the elements of RAW and RAI...

[Nabterayl]

I know at this point it is more devil's advocate (and I do not use models that turbo boost, much less scout, so I have no personal gain in this). But, I find this is an interested discussion, considering the elements of RAW and RAI...

Just so long as we don't get flamed for having a bit of word-geek fun then :p

I see the argument that turbo-boosting isn't a "normal" move (i.e., that it's a universal special rule, so it must be a special move), so I'll argue the side that it is.

As I said in a previous post, if you check the wording on pages 11, 52, 53, and 76, you'll see they all use the same construction, and all specify "the Movement phase." The fact that the turbo-boost move uses the same construction as the "normal" move rules for unit types is probative of its normalcy.

What then, one might ask, is a non-normal move? I don't have a really convincing textual answer, but "movement" that happens outside of the Movement phase comes to mind as a possible candidate.

[Sam]

Actually, I disagree with y'all. You wouldn't get the Cover Save. My reasoning is the second sentence in the rule, "may move up to 24" in the Movement phase." Is a Scout Move done in the Movement phase? No. If you were to Turbo-Boost and then Turbo Boost again in the Movement phase, for a total of 48", than yes I agree you would. But as a Scout Move is not done in the Movement phase, you have not fufiled the crietria in order to get the save in the following Shooting phase.

So your argument is that if you Turbo-boost in the Scout move you cannot claim the cover save because you do not fill the criteria for having Turbo-boosted? Are these bikes like Schrodinger's cat, but instead of simultaneously being alive and dead they are simultaneously going fast and not going fast?

[Lerra]

The RAW is a bit iffy . . . but I've only ever seen this played one way in the real world.

If you turboboost during a scout move, you get a cover save during the turn which immediately follows (ex: the top of round 1). You don't get a save during the bottom of round 1 unless you turboboosted during the top of round 1.

Does anyone else play it differently?

[Vince]

No one at a tourney will let you use turbo boosting this way.

[SombreBrotherhood]

@ Lerra - Agreed, sir.

[Lerra]

Really . . . Every tournament I've been to has allowed this. Odd.

Not that it matters to me. My codex specifically states that my bikes can't turboboost during scout (Dark Angels), but I'll have to disallow it for other armies from now on.