Which Faction Should Follow the Squats Out? Why?

[Chris Copeland]

It's been many years since Hive Fleet Retcon ate the entire Squat race. There has been an eerie silence left in many sectors of the Imperium since. Much space-ale has been left undrunk... many space-hogs unridden, much space-leather unworn.

So my question is this: who should be next? Tau? Dark Eldar? Sisters? Necrons? Who would you like to see follow the Squats into oblivion and why?

[Melissia]

None. In fact Squats should be brought BACK, along with Lost and the Damned.

[Galadren]

I'm with Melissia. Though if I had to pick one I'd say Tau, and they go out the exact same way the Squats did: eaten by Nids.

It makes sense, honestly. A hive fleet is already nibbling away at them and their area of space isn't that big.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

None. In fact Squats should be brought BACK, along with Lost and the Damned.

I agree. Even the factions that I dislike add diversity. Its not as if 40k is that diverse to begin with either - with most of the xenos being bipeds of different skin colours. Also, all the factions have strong dedicated fanbases and it would only piss them off if their beloved race got canned.

[Lerra]

Agreed. I really dislike when units are removed from codices, let alone whole armies trashed. If you give a couple hundred bucks to GW to build an army, GW should continue to support that army with updated rules, even if it's a White Dwarf or PDF release.

I'd really like to see GW or Forgeworld release updated rules for all of the armies that they have sold at one time: Lost and the Damned, Kroot Mercs, Genestealer Cult, Squats, etc. Even if it's just for casual games, people should be able to use their GW models in 5th ed 40k.

GW could easily get an intern to update the rules for free, or even nab one of the homebrew codices online and make it quasi-official.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I'd really like to see GW or Forgeworld release updated rules for all of the armies that they have sold at one time: Lost and the Damned, Kroot Mercs, Genestealer Cult, Squats, etc. Even if it's just for casual games, people should be able to use their GW models in 5th ed 40kl.

I agree and id go further with that - I think Forgeworld should do new xeno races. its not like there isnt loads to choose from in the backround - and furthermore its not like GW itself can keep up with the existing ones, so FW would be the best place. They could even do guard/marine stuff as a counter to the new xeno stuff if it helped sell the books and such e.g. id like to see the conflict between the Iron Lords and Barghesi expanded beyond its tidbit mentions in the books.

[Gotthammer]

None.

As a comic book writer said on the killing of characters, "every character is somebody's favourite".

[Melissia]

I agree and id go further with that - I think Forgeworld should do new xeno races. its not like there isnt loads to choose from in the backround - and furthermore its not like GW itself can keep up with the existing ones, so FW would be the best place. They could even do guard/marine stuff as a counter to the new xeno stuff if it helped sell the books and such e.g. id like to see the conflict between the Iron Lords and Barghesi expanded beyond its tidbit mentions in the books.

Hrud may be bipedal, but they're extremely alien... they could make an interesting faction.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/3b/Hrud.jpg

[Chris Copeland]

To be clear: I was just joking. I think we need MORE factions not less (and I don't mean 5 more Space Marine Codexes either).

As a mental exercise, the question still stands: If you HAD to drop and army from 40K which would you choose and why?

[fuzzbuket]

I agree and id go further with that - I think Forgeworld should do new xeno races. its not like there isnt loads to choose from in the backround - and furthermore its not like GW itself can keep up with the existing ones, so FW would be the best place. They could even do guard/marine stuff as a counter to the new xeno stuff if it helped sell the books and such e.g. id like to see the conflict between the Iron Lords and Barghesi expanded beyond its tidbit mentions in the books.



yeah thatd be cool :D with FW most races could be coverd with a troop set and upgrade frame (e.g. marines = marine box and a box filled with packs, Heavy weapons and combat weapons.) along with 1/2 big beasties :D :D

[Kirsten]

I would drop Necrons. I am a fan of Necrons, and will likely collect them again when they get redone, but I would like to see them being more than alternative marines. If the race were dropped it would give GW the ability to reintroduce them essentially, in a more unique setting. I loved them in second edition when every single one was a serious threat and nigh unkillable, the battle report vs the sisters of battle in WD217 I think? was amazing. 3rd edition however was just an army of annorexic marines with an unhealthy Arnie fetish. The concept is excellent, they just need rebooting, and I doubt they will get a significantly large boot in the next book to satisfy me.

Make the basic warriors spider bots instead of humanoid, I have ideas for a necron army using the destroyer upper body on a four limbed mechanical leg unit as basic warriors. Given that the void dragon served as inspiration for the mechanicus I thought it would be cool if the necrons looked like the way mechanicus skitarii are described in Titanicus/Mechanicus, but sleeker and more high tech.

[MarneusCalgar]

I would drop TAU Empire...

They are the youngest race and even with their armours they seem to be the weakest ones...

A new hive fleet could eat them too

[Chris Copeland]

I'd drop Dark Eldar... they just seem so lame... but that's just me. Perhaps it's because so many of their sculpts seem dated and their rules are close to incomprehensible to folks who rarely play against them (folks like me)...

[Gotthammer]

As a mental exercise, the question still stands: If you HAD to drop and army from 40K which would you choose and why?

Hrm, first off I'd say condense the Marines into one Codex - make it super customisable (well, make them all super customisable) so you can represent every chapter - the main one is close, just give them CCWs and make Captains not suck.

Otherwise I'm Kirsten on Necrons - they could be like Ogres for 40k with minimal numbers of units, but nigh unkillable. Also get rid of everything and everyone now being related to the Old Ones / C'Tan - I much more preferred the view of 'this is the galaxy, everything in it will kill you'.

Next choice would be to take the =I= out of the WH/DH codexes as they're not really a front line force, as 40k usually represents. Make them a White Dwarf expanison or something.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Hrud may be bipedal, but they're extremely alien... they could make an interesting faction.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/3b/Hrud.jpg

indeed, they are a favourite of mine - iv actually started to make some prototype sculpts even. Their little like the ones in the picture but have more distorted features and robes. They have some fascinating weaponry, such as the energy field mentioned in planetstrike that aged a regiment of imperial guard to such a degree they could not fight.

[Melissia]

To be clear: I was just joking. I think we need MORE factions not less (and I don't mean 5 more Space Marine Codexes either).

As a mental exercise, the question still stands: If you HAD to drop and army from 40K which would you choose and why?

Every single Space Marine variant.

[CitizenZero]

Of course, they shouldn't get rid of any the armies they have...but if I had to choose:

Get rid of Dark Eldar...they always came off as a tacked-on race, even when they first came out. A clear attempt to add more to the 40k Universe by taking another page from Fantasy. I think Necrons are sort of the same thing, but at least Necrons gives us a different alien race...Dark Eldar just give us a variation of an already existing one...I agree we need more xenos, but not of the same type.

Also, I have been playing for 16 years and have NEVER met a single person who actually played squats...so it goes to show how unpopular an army would have to be for it to be eaten...

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Hrm, first off I'd say condense the Marines into one Codex - make it super customisable (well, make them all super customisable) so you can represent every chapter - the main one is close, just give them CCWs and make Captains not suck.

Otherwise I'm Kirsten on Necrons - they could be like Ogres for 40k with minimal numbers of units, but nigh unkillable. Also get rid of everything and everyone now being related to the Old Ones / C'Tan - I much more preferred the view of 'this is the galaxy, everything in it will kill you'.

Next choice would be to take the =I= out of the WH/DH codexes as they're not really a front line force, as 40k usually represents. Make them a White Dwarf expanison or something.

Now I understand your question better, I would say yes to the Inquistion. The codices should be focusses purely on sisters and grey knights.

I disagree with the Old Ones/C'tan though. I really like that backround as (obviously) I am a huge fan of anything lovecraftian - but it could it definitly do with some retconning and improvement. I think the C'tan should be more lovecraftian, more like say Nyarlathotep, Yog-sothoth and Cthluhu in both visual and fluff form - i.e. something more in the backround and not playable, less on them too - merely hinted at but never really explored, they'd be far scarier that way.

Infact I would make their fluff ambigious in that the imperium arent even sure the exist or not, this would allow those that like them to believe they are out there and those that dont to believe that they dont exist. Ambiguity is one of 40k's best traits. The models for the nightbringer and deceiver could be kept but just changed to Character Lords who have gone utterly insane - which to me would make more sense.

[DarkLink]

I would drop TAU Empire...

They are the youngest race and even with their armours they seem to be the weakest ones...

A new hive fleet could eat them too

I agree. Tau are kinda the odd ones out in the grimdark universe, and they're almost certainly the weakest and smallest faction currently.


Hrm, first off I'd say condense the Marines into one Codex - make it super customisable (well, make them all super customisable) so you can represent every chapter - the main one is close, just give them CCWs and make Captains not suck.

Chapter Tactics was a perfect opportunity to do this. Imagine if you would simply pick your chapter, which would give you a unit Chapter Tactics and access to a few unique units. And since you couldn't mix and match traits like in the last SM codex, it could be well balanced.

[Gotthammer]

Chapter Tactics was a perfect opportunity to do this. Imagine if you would simply pick your chapter, which would give you a unit Chapter Tactics and access to a few unique units. And since you couldn't mix and match traits like in the last SM codex, it could be well balanced.

Definately. They could even do it along broad archetypes rather than specific Chapters to appease the 'no specials' crowd (note that this is all off the top of my head here):


Noble - All Rhino based vehicles are fast, but +15 points each; Assault Marines as Troops, no Thunderfire cannons / whirlwinds, replace Combat Tactics with Furious Charge.

Stoic - Sternguard / Vanguard are scoring, replace CT with Stubborn.

Valiant - Chaplains Elites as well as HQs; may take Land Raiders as dedicated transports for Tac/vet squads, but not take them otherwise.

Wise - Dreadnoughts as heavy/elites; Sergeants may take Terminator Armour; squads may take bionics; scouts become elites, no Storms; Deluxe Master of the Forge unit.

Pure - Sergeants may be upgraded to Apothecaries, Master of the Apothicarium special unit.

Fierce - May take second special weapon in squad, but no heavy weapons; may not take Apothecaries (I see them as being a seperate unit in this codex like Sang Priests), Thuderfires, Storms; unit size limits changed (tac squads 5-15 etc).

Vengeful - Terminators have 'mixed' equipment and are Fearless, no Vanguard / Sternguard squads, Scouts Elite.

Each would have special psyker powers as well, and some specialist wargear. For the boys in blue I'd make the Captain (or Lieutenant for lower points games) change army compostition - ie in Termie armour termies become Troops (Deathwing), same for bikes.
They could also take upgrades to be the 'Master of the March', 'Master of the Watch' or the like, in the same vein as IG advisors, to modify the list structure or add abilities to the army (ie March gives one unit Outflank, Fleet one unit arrives on a 2+ from reserves etc).
Certain traits would disallow some abilities - so Fierce couldn't take Termies as Troops etc.


Doing all the Codexes like that would be awesome.

[Hyperion]

I'd drop humans... I mean no one's going to miss them are thay?

[Denzark]

Dark Eldar.

[Valkerie]

actually [/I]played squats...so it goes to show how unpopular an army would have to be for it to be eaten...

That's probably because they stopped supporting Squats back in 2nd ed. They were given a couple of entries in the Black Army Book, then basically ignored. While everyone else was getting a shint new codex, the Squats were left out in the cold. Sales of Squats plummeted, (go figure) and that was used as an excuse not to support the line. You couldn't get the figs, so people stopped playing Squats. Simple cause and effect.

I would like them to be brought back, along with Lost and the Damned. Two armies that would add some varitey and character to the game setting.

[Javin]

Remove the DE, they have no effect on plot or story line.

[Aldramelech]

Necrons. Dont like the models or the story. They seemed to me to be a cynical way for GW to cash in on "Terminator"

[HsojVvad]

I was going to say SM. Without the SM there would be no Imperium. I don't know, after 20 years and no advancement in the story line, gets quite boring.

Hell in soap operas, somone has a kid, and next year the kid is 5 years old, 2 years after than he or she is a teenager and 3 years after that they are an adult. GW advances the story line too slow.

I think SM need to go so the story is advanced or changed at least now.

[CitizenZero]

That's probably because they stopped supporting Squats back in 2nd ed. They were given a couple of entries in the Black Army Book, then basically ignored. While everyone else was getting a shint new codex, the Squats were left out in the cold. Sales of Squats plummeted, (go figure) and that was used as an excuse not to support the line. You couldn't get the figs, so people stopped playing Squats. Simple cause and effect.I remember 2nd Edition vividly, I played Orks and Space Wolves...used my awesome cardboard Ork Dreadnaught in games against many opponents...never once did I meet a single person who played/had ever played squats.

Squats didn't get supported, because they weren't a popular army...if GW was making money on them, they would have kept them around.

What I was getting at is there isn't a single army out there that is in grave danger of being eliminated in the same fashion...

Also for the record, I wouldn't mind if they bring Squats back...it would be kind of cool to have more xenos and I think they could have really cool sort of advanced steampunk-ish feel to them...I am just saying the people who seem to "miss them" the most are people who never played them.

Now before this thread devolves into a chicken or the egg argument about why Squats aren't around, I am going to give OP the courtesy of not really touching on it anymore. If you want to start a Squat thread, I'll be happy to talk there.

[CitizenZero]

I was going to say SM. Without the SM there would be no Imperium. I don't know, after 20 years and no advancement in the story line, gets quite boring.

Hell in soap operas, somone has a kid, and next year the kid is 5 years old, 2 years after than he or she is a teenager and 3 years after that they are an adult. GW advances the story line too slow.

I think SM need to go so the story is advanced or changed at least now.I don't know, I suppose that is true for the 40k books and such...but even there the fluff is still unknown enough that they are interesting reads.

We are able to experience a virtually unlimited variety of battles in the 41st millennium...thats sort of the point of Warhammer 40k. It would be like telling Flames of War to advance the storyline of WWII... "Ooh, I want to see what happens in 1946!"

There are a variety of interesting movies and shows on WWII, and we know how that story "ends." At the end of the day, there are still numerous story arcs that are yet to be told.

[Denzark]

Now before this thread devolves into a chicken or the egg argument about why Squats aren't around, I am going to give OP the courtesy of not really touching on it anymore. If you want to start a Squat thread, I'll be happy to talk there.

I'll do it - a Squat thread, sure. But still, Dark Eldar. Utter Pap.

[BlackKnight15624]

Definately. They could even do it along broad archetypes rather than specific Chapters to appease the 'no specials' crowd (note that this is all off the top of my head here):


Noble - All Rhino based vehicles are fast, but +15 points each; Assault Marines as Troops, no Thunderfire cannons / whirlwinds, replace Combat Tactics with Furious Charge.

Stoic - Sternguard / Vanguard are scoring, replace CT with Stubborn.

Valiant - Chaplains Elites as well as HQs; may take Land Raiders as dedicated transports for Tac/vet squads, but not take them otherwise.

Wise - Dreadnoughts as heavy/elites; Sergeants may take Terminator Armour; squads may take bionics; scouts become elites, no Storms; Deluxe Master of the Forge unit.

Pure - Sergeants may be upgraded to Apothecaries, Master of the Apothicarium special unit.

Fierce - May take second special weapon in squad, but no heavy weapons; may not take Apothecaries (I see them as being a seperate unit in this codex like Sang Priests), Thuderfires, Storms; unit size limits changed (tac squads 5-15 etc).

Vengeful - Terminators have 'mixed' equipment and are Fearless, no Vanguard / Sternguard squads, Scouts Elite.

Each would have special psyker powers as well, and some specialist wargear. For the boys in blue I'd make the Captain (or Lieutenant for lower points games) change army compostition - ie in Termie armour termies become Troops (Deathwing), same for bikes.
They could also take upgrades to be the 'Master of the March', 'Master of the Watch' or the like, in the same vein as IG advisors, to modify the list structure or add abilities to the army (ie March gives one unit Outflank, Fleet one unit arrives on a 2+ from reserves etc).
Certain traits would disallow some abilities - so Fierce couldn't take Termies as Troops etc.


Doing all the Codexes like that would be awesome.

As a marine player, condensing the codices is heresy! kidding- in all seriousness we marines can do without a flobbityjillion codices. The trait system was really cool (same in the IG codex) and I do think if you expanded it, many of the marine codices could be encompassed by a single 'tome,' so to speak.

And melissia is right- bring back the Lost and the Damned! I still play with the list, even if it stinks and not legally supported- magic words here being "opponent's permission."

Other than that, if GW were to drop a race, I'd be least disappointed if Hive Fleet Retcon ate the Tau. They're just a prickly thorn in the Imperium's side; and they're usually half-heartedly justified for being in a campaign because there's now way they could *actually* get there.

[Renegade]

This is a real tough one...

Inquisition maybe? Don''t want any of them to go... errr, All imperial forces, put them in one massive book. They could move on the time line so that the codex is scrapped and the Legions are brought back.

[RocketRollRebel]

Bring back LatD!

I cant think of any I would drop. Maybe the inquisition tho. I love them but they dont seem to translate well on the table aside from "heres my hood inq with a couple of mystics and a....sage! there we go!".

But yeah if anything I think 40k needs another non imperial faction. Be it LatD or a new xenos. Although any new xenos would have to be pretty extreme in order to avoid being redundant next to the current races.

[chromedog]

Blood Angels.

The whole sparkly shiny lot of them.

(as in the LATEST sparkly shinys, not just because of the VAMPIRE/BLOOD overtones).

Never liked them. Never will.

Inquisition is changing though. Mystics ARE certainly going bye-bye. Anything overused at tourneys does this when the codex gets redone. Weaker units will get buffed and stronger units are ether removed or nerfed.

[mysterex]

I think that Codex Daemons should get rolled back into Chaos Space Marines. They made more sense supporting each other.

At the moment daemons are close to an after-thought in the CSM codex and a daemonic incursion without some sort of human (or other mortal) instigation doesn't really make sense.

[HsojVvad]

I don't know, I suppose that is true for the 40k books and such...but even there the fluff is still unknown enough that they are interesting reads.

We are able to experience a virtually unlimited variety of battles in the 41st millennium...thats sort of the point of Warhammer 40k. It would be like telling Flames of War to advance the storyline of WWII... "Ooh, I want to see what happens in 1946!"

There are a variety of interesting movies and shows on WWII, and we know how that story "ends." At the end of the day, there are still numerous story arcs that are yet to be told.

You know what? I have never thought of it that way. I am going to have to rethink of my view on that now.

Thanks for bringing in a different out look on the story advancement for 40K.

[Old_Paladin]

I feel that the inquisitor aspect of Grey Knights ans Sisters of battle could easily be fluff only, and have the big boys and girls do the actual fighting on the table top (I mean, it works just fine for the imperial navy).

I don't think that anyone should be dropped from the game; but if they had to do it make the rest of the armies better, Tau make the most sense. They're small enough that it would be easy to explain them being destroyed. [but I'd actually use the Imperium as the tool of their fall; it would re-enforce that there are no 'good guys,' and the Black Templars are just itching to get back at them for that whole 'Third Sphere' thing].
I mean, part of the reason in dropping the 40K world-wide campaigns was that the Tau cannot affect universal events, locations had to either be in or near Tau space or they needed a one-off side mini-campaign (that, and it didn't matter how well any/every group did, the result[s] had to be toned down).

[Hellfire]

You couldn't get the figs, so people stopped playing Squats. Simple cause and effect.

Yeah, that was me. I bought them all. Sorry about that...

[Lucidum]

Although both of them are due for a reboot/update in the coming months, I'd say Dark Eldar and Necrons. Dark Eldar because well...c'mon....they're evil, non-psychic-y Eldar....and kind of a blatent attempt to copy the High Elves/Dark Elves dichotomy of Warhammer Fantasy (seriously, if they would just make Eldar Exodites now too, we'd have the fantasy books covered pretty much). Necrons because...I dunno, like someone else here said earlier, they seem to be just too blatantly an attempt to capitalize on the "coolness factor" associated with the Terminator movies. I mean, sure, the Tyranids were inspired by the Alien movies undoubtedly, but they just seem to have so much more depth and history behind them. Maybe the Necrons just need something of a waaaaaay longer, more in depth background, codex, and personality. I'd guess whoever wrote their 3rd ed. codex is the same person/people who wrote the Tomb Kings Codex for fantasy, not just because of the similiar "undead" theme of the army but also because of the similiarity of the book layout and the very minimal background story and coverage.

However, I am also of the mind that no races need be dropped from 40K altogether, merely updated and expanded upon, and new races added so that 40K players have at least as many options for armies as the 15 that Fantasy players get to choose from. Personally, working from what little background there is written about two of the minor species in the 40K universe, the Khrave and the Loxatl, I've written pages of background material concerning their society, technology, beliefs/religion, and overal goals as well as why they would expand into the galaxy to become major players in the war-torn grimdark of the 41st millenium, I've even gotten to coming up with unit listings for them and the like, if anyone's interested in taking a look-see at what I've got so far and would like to comment/edit/critique.

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

Off topic:

Hrud may be bipedal, but they're extremely alien... they could make an interesting faction.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/3b/Hrud.jpg
I always thought the Hrud were cool, however, I think they'd end up much like the Tau. They hide behind random super-technology because they're so frail. At least that's the impression that I get with them being so small.

On topic:
Dark eldar, IMO are copy-pasta for the most part with a few cool toys. I'm not sure why GW needs to have like 14 armies dedicated to chaos, but it's their game, I just play it. I think the S&M elves lack any real flavor.
S&M is SUPPOSED to ADD flavor, and they can't even get that right.

That's my rant, I guess I just think they're lame.

[eldargal]

I agree with condensing the Marines back into a single codex. I don't care if one lot are vampires and the others behave innaopriately with dogs, they aren't different enough to warrant a whole series of seperate codices in my view.
Dark Eldar, lots of potential, needs to be done better. Which they seem intent on doing so we can hope they become worthwile. As it is now, losing them wouldn't hurt.
Tau. Yes. Better dead than red.:rolleyes: They really spoil the whole grimdark thing in my view, though GW have grimdarked it up a bit with hints at alterior motives of the ethereals and whatnot.
Squats were dropped cos they were Dorfs in space and really not that interesting. I know a lot of people were attached to them, but they really just short Space Marines.
Necrons. They were much more interesting when kept mysterious and before the whole "C'tan vs Old Ones and every single bloody thing which happens in 40k stems from this paradigm" started. It would be lovely if Hive Fleet Retcon et the C'tan, Necrons could go back to being the Borg of 40k.

Of course, this whole debate is pointless as GW have stated no one will be getting squatted ever. Hell, there are even rumours of the squats reappearing if GW can figure out how to do it convincingly.

[mysterex]

I agree with condensing the Marines back into a single codex. I don't care if one lot are vampires and the others behave innaopriately with dogs, they aren't different enough to warrant a whole series of seperate codices in my view.

I have a space marine army and I even agree with this. A single codex with a rethought trait system would be a much better option.


Of course, this whole debate is pointless as GW have stated no one will be getting squatted ever. Hell, there are even rumours of the squats reappearing if GW can figure out how to do it convincingly.

Perhaps the administratum could wake up and realise it was just a dream ;)

[Renegade]

Hell, there are even rumours of the squats reappearing if GW can figure out how to do it convincingly.Well, it would be strange if they were found on just one world given the specialistion they had.

[fuzzbuket]

I have a space marine army and I even agree with this. A single codex with a rethought trait system would be a much better option.


i agree althought i love my blood angels just having a double thick marine codex with some nifty traits and say 20 pages at the back for each of BA SW DA BT ect with you cant take ...... but instead you can take......... also give the puppies back theere russes :P (i might convert to wolves if i could take 3 LR punishers with 3xHB :P)

[alx_152]

It's been many years since Hive Fleet Retcon ate the entire Squat race. There has been an eerie silence left in many sectors of the Imperium since. Much space-ale has been left undrunk... many space-hogs unridden, much space-leather unworn.

So my question is this: who should be next? Tau? Dark Eldar? Sisters? Necrons? Who would you like to see follow the Squats into oblivion and why?

None.
They should bring back the Squats and add the other races they mention in the Fluff, like the Demiurg, Jokaero and the Hrud.

[Col.Gravis]

Likewise I'd agree none should be removed in an ideal world and only that more should be added.

However in an ideal world I'd quite like to see a larger Space Marine tome with all the loyalist first founding legions covered, and perhaps a few of the more noteable chapters from later foundings, not one list, but just one book - and for the same treatment to be given to the Chaos Space Marines and the Traitor Legions.

[The Dinosaur]

although it would bring on the haters in a big way, if GW want to move forward and make waves it needs to be somthing bigger than just a "minor" race vanishing into the darkness.

The eldar get a bit to close to the chaos bug zapper and POOOOF! the dark eldar population explodes and eldar are gone, before you know it they've taken 50% of the tau area and are slowly grinding through the orcs.

necrons rise up on terra and the Ultramarines are irreperably damaged...

i know these are extreme and yes it would never happen but 40k needs a bang if somthings ever gonna go.

[erwos]

However in an ideal world I'd quite like to see a larger Space Marine tome with all the loyalist first founding legions covered, and perhaps a few of the more noteable chapters from later foundings, not one list, but just one book - and for the same treatment to be given to the Chaos Space Marines and the Traitor Legions.
This is the more likely scenario, IMHO. I wouldn't mind seeing such treatment given to the Imperial Guard and the Lost and the Damned, too, not to mention the various inquisition factions.

[HsojVvad]

None.
They should bring back the Squats and add the other races they mention in the Fluff, like the Demiurg, Jokaero and the Hrud.

I want the Slann back. Ooops. This is brining someone back not taking one away, sorry.

[murrburger]

Although I hate Tau, I have to say that their fluff is at least interesting. I like their whole subtle, evil propaganda/brainwashing/assimilation angle.

Many Tau fans seem to miss that part :p.

Change Necrons so their fluff doesn't suck (And ruins Eldar fluff at the same time). I'd really love them to be more than mindless robots in space that don't have any real goals, or do much of anything. C'tan in game is silly, too.

I say remove Sisters of Battle. I don't like nuns with guns.

Or maybe the Inquisition. They shouldn't really be fighting wars, anyways.

[Porty1119]

DE need to get Squatted. Squats need to get un-Squatted.

[Lerra]

I'd like to see a huge Imperial tome for IG and Inquisition, another huge tome for all of the space marine chapters, and a third huge tome for Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Guard.

[Lucidum]

I'd like to see a huge Imperial tome for IG and Inquisition, another huge tome for all of the space marine chapters, and a third huge tome for Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Guard.*grinds teeth* grrr....gods I want to see a chaos traitor guard or LOtD army >,,<

[Melissia]

If you're going to combine the "Imperium" into one tome, you might as well stuff the *******ed Space Marines into it too. Seeing as the Inquisition uses Space Marines at any rate (Deathwatch and Grey Knights, along with honor-bonded chapters).

[Chuck777]

If any armies have to be squatted, then it should be one of the 7 Space marine armies.

[Kettu]

Well lets see, if we must squat an army then we can axe DA, BA, BT & SW and just filter them into the next Marine Codex along with DW.

There we go, just cleaned up the list by four codices with little impact and without invalidating any army.

[edit] I only just noticed chuck777's identical idea above.

[Warp]

I agree. Even the factions that I dislike add diversity.

This really sums up my view of the entire debate. There are certainly armies I don't necessarily care for, and I would not play squats anyway, but diversity is never bad (except for game balance I guess). I don't really understand (scratch that, I UNDERSTAND, I just don't LIKE) the focus on the Space Marine armies. Don't remember where it was said, but I'm stealing it anyway; in 40K 10th edition you'll get one Codex per Space Marine/CSM chapter and you'll have one named "Codex: Not Space Marines" to cover the rest.

Now, I say this as a CSM player and one who's working on Dark Angels. I don't like their heavy focus on SM and would love more diversity and more FOCUS on the other races (BL novels etc).

[Lanparth]

I know a lot of people may dislike my opinion on this matter, but here it is.

I am glad Squats are gone. I am glad an army of midgets which really are hard to justify being a threat, are gone. Siege works are one thing.

But their infantry are funny. And 40k, despite being very fantasy-related, does not have midgets with super strength and toughness.

I'd rather see Lizard-Reptile sentient beings in space, like Slann (even if different), than midgets in bulky armor.

And before I get flamed. I've played 40k for 16 years. I *remember* seeing Squats. I remember how they look and a few of the people who played them, even if just as I was getting in they were on the way out. Which is unfortunate, I'd have rather forgotten them.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Well not that i ever would agree that a army should ever be dropped again, as i think they need diversity within the game, otherwise we have to many SM armies , some IG, Orks, and then some with DE,Necron and the rest.

Dropping squats was a lame way of saying that GW couldn't be stuffed with applying resources to them, its lame and lazy of them. But now with new technology in casting and some creative writing, well they have no excuse really not to bring them back to allow there fans (and we keep them in there jobs) another army to play other than ones there already milking for everything they squeeze.

Inquisition should be dropped if i had to allow it, atleast from a WH codex. It has no place at all, it only takes away from the SoB that need there own codex and expansions.
Black Templars maybe, never liked them at all, just another SM army of CCW troopers on some stupid ideal. Atleast you already have BA and SW for CC. Dont need another one at all.

As much as i dont like the cartoon looking Tau, i think we need them in the game to balance out so many SM varients, IG and Ork players. With Eldar, and DE hopefully with Nidz its necessary to have balance otherwise one day you will just see everyone playing SM's.

Condensing all the SM codex's inot one, well i dont think it would work out, but would be nice if they did. Not that the cash grabbing executives of GW would ever allow it. It would be like asking them to Put all the Inquisisiton into one codex.

Drop BT.....dont need them anymore

[titan eddy]

Even though i think none should go i think sisers would be next to go

[RealGenius]

Is it wrong that I couldn't get past "Faction"? Isn't that from some other game?

I think you mean, "Which Codex?" :)

[CitizenZero]

Dropping squats was a lame way of saying that GW couldn't be stuffed with applying resources to them, its lame and lazy of them. But now with new technology in casting and some creative writing, well they have no excuse really not to bring them back to allow there fans (and we keep them in there jobs) another army to play other than ones there already milking for everything they squeeze.Milking for everything they squeeze? Haha...you had me at calling GW "lazy" for dropping squats...

smh

[rbryce]

Is it wrong that I couldn't get past "Faction"? Isn't that from some other game?

I think you mean, "Which Codex?" :)

i dont think faction is tied to one system, what with it meaning "one side in a grouping". democrats are a political faction, Man utd are a faction in UK football, germany was a faction in WW2.

[mynameisgrax]

Sisters and Daemonhunters are more or less on their way out. Their codexes are out of print, and were posted on the games workshop site for free. That's GW's way of saying 'play them if you've got them, but we're not spending any more time on them'.

I can't believe that some people are saying Tau. They're one of the most interesting and visually impressive armies in the game. That said, I agree that they're also one of the most underpowered right now. Still, that's a reason to revise their codex, not get rid of them completely.

Likewise, I don't think the Dark Eldar should be removed. They just REALLY need a new codex and a new range of models.

No, the armies that I think should go are the Black Templar and Dark Angels. They're not unique enough, and now just seem like watered down versions of the other factions.

[Melissia]

That's funny, new Sisters and Grey Knights models were spotted as being worked on at GW not too recently :P Including an interesting Sister with two storm bolters...

[Shotgun Justice]

Sisters and Daemonhunters are more or less on their way out. Their codexes are out of print, and were posted on the games workshop site for free. That's GW's way of saying 'play them if you've got them, but we're not spending any more time on them'.

About as wrong as one can be on that one. This is GW's way of saving money on print runs, clearing space in the short term and buying time to decide how to treat WH, SoB and Inq forces in the future. Daemonhunters have a release slot in the next 12 months.

To answer the OP the Dark Angels codex was a poorly thought out venture and has done no favours to their players. That said DA are basically a few special characters of no great power (relatively speaking) and two variant army lists/FOCs. I think they should go.
Black Templars at least had a unique play style for a MEQ, haven't seen one play in 5thEd so don't know if that style remains.

Also manga space ruminants with their predator-lite and swamp-things-on-slim-fast buddies? Needs work

[DarkLink]

Sisters and Daemonhunters are more or less on their way out. Their codexes are out of print, and were posted on the games workshop site for free. That's GW's way of saying 'play them if you've got them, but we're not spending any more time on them'.

Except for the new GK codex coming in probably January, and a Sisters codex sometime later next year.



I can't believe that some people are saying Tau. They're one of the most interesting and visually impressive armies in the game. That said, I agree that they're also one of the most underpowered right now. Still, that's a reason to revise their codex, not get rid of them completely.


Of all the armies in the game, the Tau fit in the least with 40ks uber-grimdarkness. By far.

[Lerra]

Also manga space ruminants with their predator-lite and swamp-things-on-slim-fast buddies? Needs work

Get it right. Kroot are space chickens on steroids.

Also, if you look at the new Tau fluff from Deathwatch, they are definitely grimdark. They are the enslavers of lesser races, with a strict caste system that means that they end up enslaving many of their own, too. Tau are disturbing because under that thin veneer of "we're the good guys!", you realize that they are actually quite evil. It's like GW is giving us a bit of false hope with the Tau, only to snatch it away when you delve deeper into their story.

[RealGenius]

i dont think faction is tied to one system, what with it meaning "one side in a grouping". democrats are a political faction, Man utd are a faction in UK football, germany was a faction in WW2.

Yes, those are factions, not big 'F' "Factions". Maybe it was just bad capitalization.

And this whole thread has reset the Squad Clock too many times for me to count.

[CitizenZero]

Yes, those are factions, not big 'F' "Factions". Maybe it was just bad capitalization.

And this whole thread has reset the Squad Clock too many times for me to count.This thread has not only re-set the squat clock, but its flown backwards around the world so fast, went back in time, and now Squats never existed.
:eek:

[mynameisgrax]

How did I not hear about the Sisters and Daemonhunter re-releases? Up until this thread, I literally heard nothing about it, and then after making my post, it was practically the first thing I saw afterward. Obviously, I was wrong, neither of these armies are going anywhere. Sorry about that.

[superscenic]

I wouldn't want them to drop Tau. There are really only two Xeno races now. Eldar aren't really aliens in my opinion, neither are orks. I would like to see more alien races. Basically we have Zerg/alien/tyranid and protoss/tau in the whole big universe to show Sci-fi-yness. Necrons are just (as mentioned) terminators with an undead twist.

I like aliens and radically different races too for spice. Perhaps some kind of energy being or silicon based life?

[DarkAngelHopeful]

I don't think Dark Angels should go just because they were given a poor codex in 4th edition. They have amazing models and fluff. I do think they need a new codex though. Spacewolves and Blood Angels are pretty assualty, maybe Dark Angels could be a shooty army?

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

[DarkLink]

I don't think Dark Angels should go just because they were given a poor codex in 4th edition. They have amazing models and fluff. I do think they need a new codex though. Spacewolves and Blood Angels are pretty assualty, maybe Dark Angels could be a shooty army?

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

No, they should go because literally the only significant thing in terms of rules that distinguishes them from vanilla Marines is the Ravenwing and Deathwing, and you can do Ravenwing with the vanilla codex:p. They should have just let Chapter Masters in Terminator armor allow Terminators as troops, and put DA out of its misery:p.

[murrburger]

Really. I have a Dark Angels army, and I remember all the way back to 2nd when they were just better marines. They've gotten worse every edition since then.

I would have loved to see them in C:SM, or with BA (Angels of Death).

But I'm afraid their new book is going to be filled with angels, and they'll have Dark Swords, and Dark Fists and Darkstrike Missiles on their Storm Ravens.

[DarkAngelHopeful]

I understand what your saying about them just being better vanilla marines. I think combing them with the BA codex is a great idea, just like 2nd edition. However, I don't think they should be voted off the island. ;)

[Dark_Templar]

Combine all the Space Marine armies into one big book of doom. As an SM player I am more than happy for this to happen, as I am so sick of the tardiness of the GW release schedule and the fact that in order to fill the ever expanding codices, GW have to come up with cliche'd crap (Lukas the Trickster...really?).

In the end, as long as the book lets us play as our chosen Chapter with some nice bonuses for our choices, I am happy.

Once this is done, focus on making Necrons interesting, DE nicer to look at, Eldar plastic, Tau battlesuits that don't look like they are built out of Lego, and give us some sort of mercenaries codex that is full to the brim of various alien races.

At least give us more CHOICE in our books. I want to be able to do (B) without taking character (A) or a "counts-as-A".

/End Rant.

DT.

[rbryce]

I wouldn't want them to drop Tau. There are really only two Xeno races now. Eldar aren't really aliens in my opinion, neither are orks. I would like to see more alien races. Basically we have Zerg/alien/tyranid and protoss/tau in the whole big universe to show Sci-fi-yness. Necrons are just (as mentioned) terminators with an undead twist.

I like aliens and radically different races too for spice. Perhaps some kind of energy being or silicon based life?

well, if nids are only ALIEN(it gets capitals for awsome) rip-offs, then they are silicone based lifeforms(from the film alien. the hobbit-ma-tron tells dallas and ripley that it sheds its cells and replaces them with a silicone compound as it grows). i think the onus(sp?) is on the players when it comes to alien creatures. e.g. use any creature Asymetrical Xeno suggests, model it up, make some fun rules up, the kill team it or something. im a believer in filling GW holes ourselves. I really dont think races should be arbitrarily dropped though, as the repercussions from the community would be bad for GW i think!

[Hyperion]

well, if nids are only ALIEN(it gets capitals for awsome) rip-offs, then they are silicone based lifeforms(from the film alien. the hobbit-ma-tron tells dallas and ripley that it sheds its cells and replaces them with a silicone compound as it grows). i think the onus(sp?) is on the players when it comes to alien creatures. e.g. use any creature Asymetrical Xeno suggests, model it up, make some fun rules up, the kill team it or something. im a believer in filling GW holes ourselves. I really dont think races should be arbitrarily dropped though, as the repercussions from the community would be bad for GW i think!

Lol poor Ian Holm... one of the finest character actors of his generation, now to be known as 'Hobbit-ma-tron'

[rbryce]

i couldnt think of a way to get a gag out of napoleon in that nearly everyone would get, so he got hobbit-ma-tronned!

[HsojVvad]

The problem of having a super SM codex with all chapters in it, is what will Chaos say? How come SM can be so customizable taht Chaos can't be? What about Tau? Tyranids and any other xeno codex?

Why can SM be what ever they want, They can be a SW, a BA, a BT a DA or mix and match anyway possible. Why can't the Tau do that, or Necrons. Tyranids should be more adaptable then SM so why can't they?

This is one reason why we have so many SM chapters so you do not have an UM using SW and BA rules together.

[Cyberscape7]

Tbh I dont want any race to get completely gobbled up or eaten completely. I would like the Imperial Guard however to have all their commisars assassinated by space pirates however. That way the guard would NEVER leave their tanks and I would find it much easier to fight them:p
PS:WOOt first post this page!!!

[Dark_Templar]

The problem of having a super SM codex with all chapters in it, is what will Chaos say? How come SM can be so customizable taht Chaos can't be? What about Tau? Tyranids and any other xeno codex?

This is one reason why we have so many SM chapters so you do not have an UM using SW and BA rules together.

But there is no reason why other books cannot be more customisable as they get updated, but people are already abusing the "counts-as" so much that individual chapters start to lose significance anyways. Also, there would ideally be guidelines to prevent people having a BA/SW combined list.

Seriously, just try thinking about it for five secinds before complaining. Or try offering up alternate suggestions. These things in my opinion would be good for the hobby.

DT.

[Denzark]

Back in the days of 2 ed, a look through the guard codex would show you 'A 2000pt Tallarn army may be led by Al Rahem, a 2000pt ice Warriors of Valhalla army may be led by Chenkov' etc etc.

Nowadays marines and guards can just mix and match abilities - the have your cake and eat it factor. 'Well, mech is the metagame here, I must have Hestan like the other 7 SM armies in my FLGS but I also want scoring Sternguard so I will call them the CrimSal Sonamander Fists and throw Kantor in as well'.

I don't think a one size fits all choice is a good thing in terms of Marine codex - you almost might as well go 1st Ed and run an army with slann, squats, guard, and inquisitor and a Cthellian Cud Bear in it if you can't make up your mind about allegiance.

As to the actual topic, I have reconsidered my earlier answer of 'Squat the Dark Eldar'. and would like to change my choice to Dark Eldar - they are really poor in every way.