How do you beat Orks in close combat?

[superwizard]

I've just returned to Warhammer; not having played properly since 2nd edition. I was just looking through my brother's new Ork codex and was stunned by the close combat ability of normal Ork Boyz. For just 6 points you get a boy with WS 4, T 4 and 3 attacks (with slugga and choppa). Furthermore, they have the Furious Charge and Mob Rule special rules. I am collecting a Genestealer Cult army at the moment and I have nothing that is that capable in close combat - not even Genestealers, who I thought were supposed to be close combat kings. For the price of 6 Genestealers (16 points each), you can buy 16 Ork Boyz. Striking first, on average Genestealers (who bizarrely have 1 less attack than Ork Boyz) will kill 3-4 Ork Boyz in a round of combat; in response Orks will kill an average of slightly more than 2 Genestealers. In proportion to their point's cost, standard Ork Boyz are the clear winners.
I just don't see how I can hope to defeat an army full of Ork Boyz when Genestealers, my close combat specialists, are less powerful than them and the rest of my army (mostly Hybrids and Brood Brothers) are even less powerful in close combat and more pricey. After all, my army is mostly geared towards fighting the enemy at close quarters. How do you defeat Ork armies in close combat?

[Dingareth]

Flamers. Flamers kill them like nothing else in the game. Use your Genestealers to take out his Nobz. What list are you using to represent your army?

[Snyderson]

Welcome to the 5th Edition! o.0

Orc Boys are atm the killiest cheapest standard unit in the game.


Regards,
Sny
P.S.: Tyranids are played as a shooty army in this edition ...

[Tarion]

Tyranids are outdated. As such, they struggle to keep up with Orks, whose Infantry is very much top of the range.

Use your advantages though - You're quicker than them (Fleet) so are more likely to assault. And when you do, you kill an average of 5 Orks. Their attacks back (Assuming 6v16) kill something like 4 Genestealers (Causing the Orks to lose another 1 to combat resolution)

Thats not brilliant. You're stuck there, and its not going well. However, what if you take Preferred Enemy. At 1pt per model, it only adds one Ork to the other mob, while adding another model to the deathpile. That means you're killing another one through No Retreat! Admittedly, still not a winning position.

Still, if you're going to play Genestealer rush armies, you need to tag-team to take down these big squads. Smash into them with a hefty amount of Genestealers, and eliminate them quickly.

Look into Monstrous Creatures. No-one likes to get stuck with a Carnifex. ;)

[Dosadi]

Ya, you really don’t kill Orks in close combat. You shoot them until their numbers are manageable. You avoid them with faster units and pick away slowly at them unit they realize there are too few of them left and they run. If you assault them, you are playing into their hands. Genestealers on the charge should be able to deal a good deal of damage to an Ork mob, but you can’t expect them to win combat against a full mob.
Since I’m not really sure what you are running in a genestealer cult army it’s hard to give you advice. As for Tyranids, a dakka Tyrant with 2 twin linked devourers will end the lives of half a mob of orks every turn. A carnifex can go a few rounds with a full mob before getting pulled down, so they are a great way to tie up mobs while you work on reducing the ork numbers elsewhere. Hormagaunst are a waste of time IMO, but big swarms of termagaunts can be useful.

I guess what I’m saying is, using a list that doesn’t have a codex (like Genestealer Cults) is not going to provide you with a winning army. People build those kinds of armies out of love for the fluff and imagery, not because they are competitive.


Dosadi

[TheKingElessar]

No Retreat! wounds are the best bet, as is getting the charge in on them.

using a more recnt Codex gives you a better chance, too :P

[BuFFo]

Shoot them first, soften their numbers, then assault whats left.

Genestealers are only a shadow of what they used to be.

[Dezartfox]

My 5 terminators and Belial took on a full mob of Boyz (30). The No Retreat Rule can kill a lot of orks! I took out six more in a good round :)

[keithsilva]

Dont give them the chance to charge you. if you have to charge them my six scropions can take on a big squad due to them being faster and number of attacks

[Latro_]

Radical idea:

use the ork codex to represent your army since there is no GS cult codex :).

Model generstealers with implants to represent acid spit (sluggas) as normal boyz.

then the rest of the codex offers a wealth of proxy.

grots, imperial guard mind slaves/cultists
warboss, genesteler patriarch
nobs, ogryn slaves/large hybrid mutants
truks/battle waggons/skorchas, generic looted culty type vehicles
killa cans, hijacked loading sentinels
storm boyz, winged genestealers hybrids (were did the planet's upper hive zoo go sir?, 'we're fighting them captain!')

etc.. etc..
Bit of imagination and ye sorted.

[BuFFo]

Classic idea.

I would do this :)

[oni]

You need to assault them before they assault you. This will negate their Furious Charge and in a mob of ten or twenty boyz, that's a ton of dice you're instantly taking away. Next, try to use terrain to your advantage. It will be very hard, but try to bottle neck the Orks so that you're maximizing the amount of attacks that you get while minimizing the amount the Orks get. Most importantly, play the mission.

[Nabterayl]

Still, if you're going to play Genestealer rush armies, you need to tag-team to take down these big squads. Smash into them with a hefty amount of Genestealers, and eliminate them quickly.

As an ork player with a fondness for infantry myself, I definitely second this, and it's one of the things my opponents have had a hard time wrapping their minds around. Point-for-point, yes, a boy is a much better buy than a genestealer. But you don't actually play the game point-for-point, or you shouldn't, at least.

Orks, in my experience, work best when their opponents muck about with them? What do I mean by that? Let me give you an example:

Consider, for instance, twelve genestealers with scything talons and feeder tendrils from the tyranid codex, for a cost of 252 points. Pit them against 30 slugga boyz with a power klaw nob, for 220 points. On the charge (definitely second the sentiment that you never, ever let orks charge you), those genestealers will receive 48 attacks. On average over time, 8/9 of those will hit, 1/3 of them will wound with a 5/6 chance to bypass the orks' save, and 1/6 of them will Rend. That's an expected kill total of 18.96 boyz. The returning 30 boy attacks and 3 power klaw attacks have an expected kill value on average over time of 4.58 genestealers.

You just lost 4-5 genestealers to kill 19 boyz. You iz mukkin' about!

Add just seven more genestealers, and on average over time you've wiped out 30 boyz without taking a single casualty. You iz rokkin'!

But wait, you say. Didn't those 19 genestealers cost 399 points to kill just 220 points of boyz? Isn't that bad list construction?

In my opinion, no. There are two reasons for this.

The first is that you just killed 220 points of boyz in return for losing zero points of genestealers. If you insist on worrying about "earning your points back," then the question you should be asking is how many more boyz those 19 genestealers can kill before they're put down. And if you can wipe out 30-boy blocks without taking any casualties in return, the answer is a huge amount of boyz.

The second is that people tend to do their theoryhammer on a featureless battlefield where every unit can be approximated by a single point, and with orks in particular that is very not true. Large blocks of boyz take up space on the battlefield - space which other blocks of boyz have to traverse in order to reach you. As an example, I normally run 20-ork boyz in a 5x4 rectangle with a 1" interval, meaning 20 orks takes up a 10"x8" area of battlefield. Hit a block of orks from the front, and it's fairly easy for the next unit in a battle line to reach you through an oblique march. Hit that same block of orks on the flank, punch it out in a single charge, and consolidate back, and it's very difficult for the next unit in line to reach you. Of course, the boyz could clump up to prevent this, but if they do that, you can and should punish them with blast weapons.

If you really want to run a genestealer cult list, and not a counts-as orks list or a counts-as tyranid list, then I realize that you can't precisely replicate the above tactic. But you'd have a hard time precisely replicating the above tactic even with a tyranid list, because real battlefields rarely work out that way. The point, though, is that with the Initiative advantage you can punch out an entire unit of boyz in a single turn if you don't play fair with them (and should look through whatever codex you ultimately use for ways to do so), and the nature of orky formations gives you opportunities to do so without fear of counter-charge.

[superwizard]

Wow! Thank you all so much for all your swift and very educational responses!

I am using the Bell of Lost Soul's Genestealer Cult codex which you can download for free here:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2008/07/bols-mini-dex-downloads-archive.html
I am using this codex because personally I prefer to use a 'legitimate' army with its own rules rather than a counts-as army. Please do take a look at it, it is very comprehensive and only just over 1mb big.

I am now rethinking my tactics and planning to include more flamers and heavy weapons. The problem with Genestealers in this codex is that although in every other respect they are the same as those in the Tyranid codex, because of their rarity in a cult they are an 'Elite' choice, can only form squads of 3-6 and only have the 'Scuttlers' and 'Extended Carapace' biomorphs available to them. That means I can still field up to 24 of them as another 6 can can form a bodyguard for the Patriarch. Will 24 Genestealers be much use in your opinions? The alternative is squads of 4-8 hybrids who can field up to 2 flamers, 2 autocannons or 2 missile launchers. Do you think these small special weapons squads would be more effective against Orks?

As for monstrous creatures, I can take Hybrid Monstrosities for 110 points with the following profile:
WS___BS___S___T___W___I___A___LD___Sv
5_____0____6___6___4____3__4___10___4+

[Emperorsmercy]

I use Heavy fire to soften up the squads, then send in big stuff or Bezerkers to kill them. Though you can't use bezerkers, genestealers could be used to that effect.

[Aldramelech]

If you think you've got it bad try playing IG against them. If you dont stop them with firepower you've had it.

[Tarion]

As an ork player with a fondness for infantry myself, I definitely second this, and it's one of the things my opponents have had a hard time wrapping their minds around. Point-for-point, yes, a boy is a much better buy than a genestealer. But you don't actually play the game point-for-point, or you shouldn't, at least.

Orks, in my experience, work best when their opponents muck about with them? What do I mean by that? Let me give you an example:

Consider, for instance, twelve genestealers with scything talons and feeder tendrils from the tyranid codex, for a cost of 252 points. Pit them against 30 slugga boyz with a power klaw nob, for 220 points. On the charge (definitely second the sentiment that you never, ever let orks charge you), those genestealers will receive 48 attacks. On average over time, 8/9 of those will hit, 1/3 of them will wound with a 5/6 chance to bypass the orks' save, and 1/6 of them will Rend. That's an expected kill total of 18.96 boyz. The returning 30 boy attacks and 3 power klaw attacks have an expected kill value on average over time of 4.58 genestealers.

You just lost 4-5 genestealers to kill 19 boyz. You iz mukkin' about!

Add just seven more genestealers, and on average over time you've wiped out 30 boyz without taking a single casualty. You iz rokkin'!

But wait, you say. Didn't those 19 genestealers cost 399 points to kill just 220 points of boyz? Isn't that bad list construction?

In my opinion, no. There are two reasons for this.

The first is that you just killed 220 points of boyz in return for losing zero points of genestealers. If you insist on worrying about "earning your points back," then the question you should be asking is how many more boyz those 19 genestealers can kill before they're put down. And if you can wipe out 30-boy blocks without taking any casualties in return, the answer is a huge amount of boyz.

The second is that people tend to do their theoryhammer on a featureless battlefield where every unit can be approximated by a single point, and with orks in particular that is very not true. Large blocks of boyz take up space on the battlefield - space which other blocks of boyz have to traverse in order to reach you. As an example, I normally run 20-ork boyz in a 5x4 rectangle with a 1" interval, meaning 20 orks takes up a 10"x8" area of battlefield. Hit a block of orks from the front, and it's fairly easy for the next unit in a battle line to reach you through an oblique march. Hit that same block of orks on the flank, punch it out in a single charge, and consolidate back, and it's very difficult for the next unit in line to reach you. Of course, the boyz could clump up to prevent this, but if they do that, you can and should punish them with blast weapons.

If you really want to run a genestealer cult list, and not a counts-as orks list or a counts-as tyranid list, then I realize that you can't precisely replicate the above tactic. But you'd have a hard time precisely replicating the above tactic even with a tyranid list, because real battlefields rarely work out that way. The point, though, is that with the Initiative advantage you can punch out an entire unit of boyz in a single turn if you don't play fair with them (and should look through whatever codex you ultimately use for ways to do so), and the nature of orky formations gives you opportunities to do so without fear of counter-charge.

Something to consider - Massive multi-charges could be interested. Thinking about it - If you can link most of the squads together with a big combat, you can force dozens of No Retreat wounds, which would be interesting to see. It works as a massive force-multiplier, as each squad takes wounds based on how well you win combat.

[Nabterayl]

Wow! Thank you all so much for all your swift and very educational responses!

I am using the Bell of Lost Soul's Genestealer Cult codex which you can download for free here:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2008/07/bols-mini-dex-downloads-archive.html
I am using this codex because personally I prefer to use a 'legitimate' army with its own rules rather than a counts-as army. Please do take a look at it, it is very comprehensive and only just over 1mb big.

I am now rethinking my tactics and planning to include more flamers and heavy weapons. The problem with Genestealers in this codex is that although in every other respect they are the same as those in the Tyranid codex, because of their rarity in a cult they are an 'Elite' choice, can only form squads of 3-6 and only have the 'Scuttlers' and 'Extended Carapace' biomorphs available to them. That means I can still field up to 24 of them as another 6 can can form a bodyguard for the Patriarch. Will 24 Genestealers be much use in your opinions? The alternative is squads of 4-8 hybrids who can field up to 2 flamers, 2 autocannons or 2 missile launchers. Do you think these small special weapons squads would be more effective against Orks?

As for monstrous creatures, I can take Hybrid Monstrosities for 110 points with the following profile:
WS___BS___S___T___W___I___A___LD___Sv
5_____0____6___6___4____3__4___10___4+

I've never played against the genestealer cult codex, so this is all theoretical, but here's my first-impression thoughts:

Genestealers, if run in serious numbers, give you the capability to quickly hand decisive defeats to ork boyz (especially if you can find a way for them to hijack some brood trucks from other units). I don't see anything else in the codex that does that. Flamers are good against orks, but flamers alone cannot punch out an entire full-strength mob the way a sufficient number of genestealers can (well, okay, something like eight to ten flamers in conjunction can), and even a half-strength mob of orks would be a serious threat to a hybrid brood.

Without knowing how your ork opponents tend to compose their forces, I can't recommend taking no hybrid broods. Autocannons, for instance, are a good weapon for punching out all ork vehicles except for battlewagons, so you very well might want a hybrid brood or two if your opponent uses those in numbers.

On the other hand, the entire heavy support section of the codex except for the hybrid monstrosity also offers good anti-ork-vehicle capability, so you could use your elites slots to handle the boyz and the heavy support to deal with vehicles. And I'd definitely recommend a Leman Russ to punish your opponent for clumping up. A dispersed boyz mob has fairly little to fear from a Leman Russ, but a dispersed boyz mob is much easier to outmaneuver, particularly if the nob is not deployed at the center of the mob, and I think it will serve you in good stead to force the enemy to choose.

The hybrid monstrosity is not a bad buy, and if you face battlewagons on a regular basis I'd consider taking some, because this codex needs to assault a battlewagon to have any reasonable chance of stopping one. Keep in mind, though, that assaulting ork vehicles is harder than it seems, since very few of them have any incentive to move slowly. Even a monstrous creature attacking AV10 has difficulty stopping a vehicle when it hits on a 6+. Hybrid monstrosities also seem to me like a good way to keep your opponent's meganobz honest - meganobz are an excellent ork answer to horde infantry, so if I knew I were facing a genestealer cult list, I'd probably include a unit or two.

Since it sounds like you have access to the ork codex, take another look through it and focus on the things that aren't boyz, because if you build your entire list around taking out huge blocks of boyz, you're likely to get sucker-punched by some of the orks' other options. Killa kanz with grotzookaz, for instance, are so cheap that you can fit them into a list almost incidentally, have fabulous guns, and require specialized equipment to kill in CC (meaning an ork player can throw a killa kan into a unit of regular infantry and, if that unit doesn't have a way to kill walkers in CC, disable that unit for the entire game for the use of only a 45-point model). I've already mentioned meganobz, and the orks' vehicles. And of course there's regular nob squads, in transports or on bikes. I've said it before, but it's doubly true when it comes to any kind of nobz - you do not muck around with them. Treat them like you would a monstrous creature or a battle tank. Pile on the genestealers, pile on the krak missiles and battle cannon shells. High-volume small arms fire is not the way to go.

The strength of the ork boy is not just in the close combat prowess you can buy for very few points. The strength of the ork boy is that the solution to him is rarely the solution to other parts of the ork codex, such as nobz, fast vehicles, battlewagons, and kanz, and the boy's low cost allows an ork player to avail himself of both the boyz and these other elements. The ork codex makes it relatively easy to present the enemy with lots of different types of threats, which makes it that much easier for an ork player to retain the initiative. If you can find a way to quickly and efficiently punch out the boyz in your opponent's army you simplify the equation. I think genestealers, even in the genestealer cult codex, offer you that capability, and they also have the virtue of being able to overwhelm all types of nobz in sufficient numbers (a capability that flamers decidedly do not have).

Don't forget to look and plan for the non-boy threats in your opponent's army, though. They'll be there.

[Zombie Savant]

Just as an interesting excercise:

Point for point, Imperial Guardsmen with Furious Charge (on the charge) from someone like Straken will tie an ork mob (of equal point value). That kind of cooks a man's noodle! 30 guard (only 150 points!) will kill 15 orks before they get attacked back, and their slightly better armor should actually make them win the combat more often than not (You should save about 5 wounds, where the ork player will only save ~ 2).

[BlacknightIII]

Conscripts with a commisar lord near them tie up ork mobs for a long time specially if you kept the orks from charging. Send in the next wave ftw! This really only works for games with objectives, if you doing kill points i wouldnt suggest this.

[Welshman1440]

With squads of thirty boys I like to use this technique

Shoot them with lots of long range weapons and I mean LOTS a good ork player will have them in cover and all sorts of nasty things. Fire frag missiles, assault cannons, stormbolters everything, with nids, use barbed stranglers and ravenors with devourers (6 shots per model? Yes please!) Concentrate on each squad until there's about 15-12 of them left.

Now shoot them with short range weapons, rapid fire bolters (if your not going to assault with that unit) flamers, and heavy flamers are all your friends here. All nid weapons are assault as far as I can remember so that's one good thing you have there.

Now assault them. Make sure you actually do the charging. Do not under any circumstances let them assault you. As a nid player you'll be going first most of the time anyway so even if you do get assault it's not the end of the world. The +1 Strength and +1 attack they get from charging can in the correct circumstances rob you of your advantage. If 15 boys attack you and you only kill 5 in your initiave order and they've still got 40 attacks coming your way, 20 hitting and because they charged they get to wound you on 4's instead of 5's (IN the case of genestealers, it gets worse with homogants and being T3)

If you can't dish out enough firepower chuck a carnefex with crushing claws into the mix. Make it T7 so the boys cant hurt it on the charge and the nob still has a (Fairly) difficult time with his powerclaw.

Use your tarpit units like a massive wave of gaunts to hold up a unit for a turn or 2 (And even cause a few casualties along the way) I wouldn't be sure about using rippers to be honest as they can be instant killed by a nob and also they're a little too easy to kill..

Big squads are key. Use full squads of genestealers and 15-20 squads of homogaunts some will die on the way in and you want to be generating as many attacks as the orks at a higher iniative value

In essence lots of large templates to soften them up and then charge them.

[warmonger]

I've been playing CSM and have been very happy with the results I get when I charge Abaddon and 8 Khorne Berserkers into anything. A unit of 30 boys just melt away under that much fury. Usually over half are killed in combat and the rest are run down. If you can't get the assualt try to goad him into multi chargeing your unit along with a supporting Plague Marine squad and watch his jaw drop when he figures out he just lost 30+ attacks.

[Xas]

I'd suggest playing them as "counts as" imperial guard.

straken as a patriarch, primaris psyker as magus and your done.

by "done" I mean DONE. straken in the middle of 3-4 30man squads only has to move smart to counter orkmobs without even rolling a single dice.

while your tanks and weapon squads deal with the other parts of the ork army the interveiling parts of fire from the front squads will result in hughe numbers of casualties and with the run order you can easily outmaneuvre the orks. and straken himself can deal with any single hard target your troops mgiht have problems with. with help of a priest he has around 5 s7 power weapon attacks that reroll to hit and roll 2d6 for penetration (really helpfull against dreadnoughts and similar stuff!).

[superwizard]

Thanks very much for all of your advice! I will be putting a lot of the suggested tactics into use against the Orks in battle. However, I think that a large part of the problem is that the Bell of Lost Soul's Genestealer Cult codex is simply a bit underpowered/over-priced. I wouldn't mind using a counts-as army too much if there was one that I thought replicated a Genestealer Cult army accurately and fitted the fluff, but there just isn't one - the Imperial Guard suggestion with Straken as Patriarch is probably the best idea, but without a Genestealer option I don't feel I can use it. I'll just have to hope the Bell of Lost Souls people update their codex before too long. Again, thanks for all your help. It's time to put my brother in his place!

[Majorcrash]

Shoot them first, soften their numbers, then assault whats left.

Genestealers are only a shadow of what they used to be.

MY eldar guardians shoot them silly then harliquen fleet right on on and wipe them out. This has worked on mobs of 30+ orks. of course if the nob survives we jump out and hit them later.:p

[Chaos]

keep ur distance and if they do get near u assult them first but i would rather stay as far away as possible

[Virtuous]

10 khorne berserkers on the charge can churn through a 30 strong mob of boys in no time at all

[Virtuous]

also, chaos space marines in general, they all have pistols and ccw

[Jiggs]

I have found the best way to handle orks and close combat is DON'T LET THEM GET THEIR! Use all your long range weapons in the first turn blowing apart boy squads so they're not a threat.

[SlavesToDarkness]

Khorne Berzerkers! ! !

Khorne Berzerkers! ! !

Khorne Berzerkers! ! !

Khorne Berzerkers! ! !

If the ork unit does not have a powerclaw, a dreadnaught will usually do the trick too.

[islyfe]

Heavy flamers love them some ork boyz but seriously they have low I and +6 armor...blast them and never let them get the charge(which should very easy since they are footslogging)

[Ming]

All of the codexi have hidden nuggets for fighting other armies. Orks excel at assault. Orks have multipliers to further increase the damage of their assault.

Tyranids vs Orks can be an awesome struggle to watch (even Kryptman wanted to see it on a planetary scale).

Take hyper gaunts, not just stealers. Stealers should be compared to nobz. Boyz are gaunts.

If you are playing a stealer-only force, time to rethink that. There are awesome builds using Fex's, gaunts, warriors, lichtors...You can make an army that is ded-likky in ork vernacular. I SAW a ork horde army LOSE to a tyranid army at the New Egland Ard' Boyz semis. And that Tyranid army was genestealer heavy. Watch that guy in Chicago!

[ggg]

Radical idea:

use the ork codex to represent your army since there is no GS cult codex :).

Model generstealers with implants to represent acid spit (sluggas) as normal boyz.

Bit of imagination and ye sorted.




You sir, are a genius.

[kamstew]

blasts, templates, Verrrry shooty guns(3-4 shots atleast)

just spray the hordes its hard for them too hide and most weapons ignore armour saves, if they have a KFF u might be in trouble and in assault only units with lots of attacks(striking scorpians, Harlies) are good

[terricon4]

Take whatever army you have and cover them with templates, just deliver all the indiscriminate justice you can. I play orks and hate this. Throw in some fast firing weapons and my opponents just pre/counter charge with a good effect. And remember that baiting with a small or already damaged unit annoys ork players, this causes them to make mistakes. Just be creative, orks are slow and if what you do changes a lot its hard for orks too keep up.

[DarkLink]

A charging unit of 8 Berzerkers will kill most of the squad on the charge, and finish them off in the next round of combat.

Grey knights work similarly well. Drive up, Stormbolter and Incinerator them, then assault. I once played a 1000pt game where I took 2 LR crusaders, 2x6 Grey Knights with Incinerators, and a Brother captain against 101 orks. At the end, I had a Crusader and my Brother Captain left, while my opponen had about 10 boys futilely trying to catch the land raider with a powerfist. Very fun game, my 15 models vs his 101.

Most armies have sufficient access to flamers, blast weapons, or dedicated assault troops to take out a 30 ork mob. The real problem is making sure that that assault unit isn't swarmed the turn after it wins combat, which simply comes down to careful manuvering on your part.

[biteymcrunrun]

toughness 7 carnifex! their strength 3 cant hurt you, so all you have to worry about is the power claw, if they have one.

[Superbran]

I like that idea Latro.

Superbran

[Lindargo]

Dont forget, losing some shooting attacks and charging the Orks is WAY better than being charged!
Unless your squad has 6 flamers.... or you play Tau.

[mercer]

You don't. You shoot the hell out of them, whittle there numbers down as its there strength. Make sure you charge them, never let them charge you. Thouhg, power weapons will wreck them as thye have little invulnerable saves.

[BaxterRicketts]

Get ready, this will be a big one. If you do not want to read it all skip to the bottom of this comment.

If you are using the 3.0 Genestealer Cult Minidex, and want to be an arse-hole to Orks, Tyranids, etc, then max out your ranged blast weapons. Meaning grenade launchers, cult mortars, missile launchers, battle cannons, and occasionally the dreaded flamer where appropriate. Try this basic structure for your army against the orks and even more armoured foes; Brood Brothers in units of 20 with 2 grenade launchers, B.B. Initiates in units of 20 with 1 flamer(if it gets that one shot off it will almost definitely more than make up its cost), squadrons of 3 Gun Trucks with cult mortars (note they are only blast and not ordnance nor barrage), and units of hybrids each with 2 missile launchers. The idea is to let Mr.Gork(or possibly Mork) come to you, all the while shooting your blast weapons into the dense mobs of boys. Even with a pesky custum force field nearby, the biggest horde of orks should be wittled enough to allow your Initiates to move up, flame, and assault. And in larger games, if you want to be more competitive, add a platoon of Imperial Gaurdsmen. Their firepower will be a boon, allowing you to make even Space Marines think hard about coming near to your side of the table. If you have the points,invest in a squadron of 1-3 Brood Comrades Leman Russ Tanks (and if you have the points heavy bolter sponsons and heavy stubber). Their front armour of 14 means lootas can only shake their fists while rokkits bounce off 5/6 times while their volume of firepower (1 S8 AP3 Ordnance and up to 9 S5 AP4 with a final 3 S4 AP 6 shots all at range 36'' and up, [B]per tank[B]) reduces hordes of infantry and waves of light vehicles to mush, slime, and flaming fireworks.

In short, max out your blast and template weapons; not rolling to hit with the potential to hit many models is the best friend of those with low BS, high BS, and everyone inbetween.

Some say taking less is more. Then what does that make taking more?

[Nabterayl]

their volume of firepower (1 S8 AP3 Ordnance and up to 9 S5 AP4 with a final 3 S4 AP 6 shots all at range 36'' and up, [B]per tank[B])
I agree with everything you've said up to this point. However, as an ork player, I'm not aware of that many times a Leman Russ has had occasion to fall back on its heavy bolter sponsons. If you lose your battle cannon you might need them, as nine heavy bolter shots is a lot better than three, but as you say, there aren't all that many situations in which orks can hurt a Leman Russ in the first place. Most of them boil down to cornering the thing and power klawing or deffrolling it to death, and I haven't personally run into too many situations where I can do that and not wreck the tank outright. Since you can't fire more than one heavy bolter and the battle cannon at the same time, I'm not sure I agree with buying sponsons and pintle mounts specifically to fight orks.