I'd Like to See Some Tourneys Where Only Painted Armies Are Allowed

[Chris Copeland]

I've been playing for a few years now. I came in near the end of 4th edition. I remember showing up at my first Rogue Trader tournament and being surprised to see unpainted armies... I'd got the impression (mostly from White Dwarf and perhaps the 4th edition rulebook) that three colors and basing were de rigueur for such events. I remember being a bit disappointed.

Here's the thing: I'm a bit of a painting snob, albeit a gentle one. I personally just like painted armies better! In the time I've been playing I've yet to see a tourney where the only folks allowed to play were those with at least three colors and basing. I've heard about said tourneys from my friends who have been playing longer so I know they've happened.

I'm going to state the obvious: we all take different things from this hobby. There are folks who only want to play the uber-competetive games, there are folks who are really into the fluff, there a people who love making terrain... etc... etc...

I feel that there are LOADS of tourneys out there that cater to folks who don't give a whit about painting and I find that to be well and good... GW's 'Ard Boyz and Privateer's Steamroller tourneys spring instantly to mind. My suggestion is a simple one: we need a tourney now and then that caters to folks like me.

Before anyone gets outraged (and I am aware how fast that happens on the interwebz) let me point out that what I am proposing wouldn't take anything away from the folks who don't care about this aspect of the hobby that I dig... there will always be PLENTY of tourneys where you can show up with a case full of grey plastic. If you just don't want to/have time/are offended by having a painted army just keep on walking past this hypothetical tourney I am suggesting. Cheerfully let those of us who are really into this aspect of our hobby have this one tourney.

Now, I am not telling ANYONE how they should enjoy our hobby. I am not some kind of fascist handing down dictums about what is right and wrong. I'm just suggesting that those of us on the pro-painting side of the equation should also be able to peaceably indulge ourselves in this aspect of the hobby from time to time also...

Cheers, Copeland

PS I stated some of my views on this in a related thread. I said Some of us on the pro-painting side don't see this as a debate: rather we just soldier on, preferring painted armies over unpainted armies. Personally, I have more respect for folks who paint their armies and I have more fun playing against painted armies... However, I mostly keep that to myself. Sometimes I'll pass on a game versus an unpainted army (especially if I can get in a game with a painted one instead) but I'd never make an issue of it with the owner of the unpainted army... I'd certainly never tell them WHY I wasn't playing them.... I'd just move on graciously...

Some of us live by the idea of "playing with painted minis as much as possible". I play with unpainted minis from time to time... I certainly prefer painted armies.... I won't make an issue of folks not seeing things my way: I just carry on...

So paint your minis... Don't paint your minis... Whatever... I'll continue to think better of those that take the time to paint but there is no harm in that... Most of the folks in my circle take the time to paint their stuff. I shan't enforce my beliefs on anyone else but I'm human enough to know what pleases me more... And painted minis please me more. Obviously, we all bring different desires to this hobby. Please don't imply that liking painted minis more and admiring folks who paint their minis more is out of bounds.

Good gaming to all... Cheers...

[HsojVvad]

I agree with what you said here. If there is a Tournement that is painted only, then a person who dosn't have a painted army has no right being there. I would be assuming it would be clearly stated you need a fully painted and based army to play. Nothing wrong with this.

I actually thought, most tournies were fully painted or can't play rules, and WYSIWYG. I am surprised to read that there are alot of tournies that minis do not have to be painted.

If you are going to a tourney then you have to abide by the rules there. You fallow what FAQ they tell you to use. One tourney I went to said you had to fallow the INAT even thought it was just at a persons house.

So if they say painted minis then it has to be painted minis. You don't show up with unpainted minis then. If you want to participate in that tourney, then abide by the rules.

You want to play in a tourney with unpainted minis, then you have to find a tourney that will allow it.

[Uncle Nutsy]

how does an unpainted army affect the game at all?

personally, that's an absurd rule; only allowing painted models on the table.

it doesn't take away from the game at all.


if you want painted armies, go to a concourse event. otherwise, quit your whining and play.

[scadugenga]

Actually, every tournement I've been in, save for WM nationals, has required painted mini's. I know that 'Ard Boyz does not, but then, it's a different kind of game altogether.

[entendre_entendre]

how does an unpainted army affect the game at all?

personally, that's an absurd rule; only allowing painted models on the table.

it doesn't take away from the game at all.


if you want painted armies, go to a concourse event. otherwise, quit your whining and play.

It's an absurd rule TOO YOU. Perhaps it affects HIS enjoyment of said game. It is much harder to really "get into" the game (i.e. play the game out like a movie in your head) with unpainted minis vs. painted minis. If he did what you suggested, he may enjoy the game less, and isn't that contrary to the point of playing in the first place? If he doesn't want to play against unpainted armies and gets less games in, then that's his decision, not yours. Maybe he likes a different part of the game than you, and is that wrong? By your post, it is, which is just wrong.

These are just ideas of his for more tournies that require painted minis (most locally already require such things, maybe it's just his area), he has stated what he does in pick-up games, but perhaps you didn't read that far.

[eagleboy7259]

how does an unpainted army affect the game at all?

personally, that's an absurd rule; only allowing painted models on the table.

it doesn't take away from the game at all.


if you want painted armies, go to a concourse event. otherwise, quit your whining and play.

Today I am simply going to play with bases and proxies. LOS is just a guess anyway, at least I have the correct footprint for my models in assault. This here in fact isn't a rhino, its a predator, and that rhino there... well see that's my whirlwind or my vindicator - I can't really remember. What you're mad? It doesn't ruin my experience of the game at least.

*This has happened to me before, when me and my buddies tried picking up Lord of the Rings.


I'm 100% percent in line with the paint snob :p. My major attraction to 40k is the overall visual effect of the game, from the detail of the models, the painting, and the scenery. I can't paint for beans, and I went the easy way of having somebody paint my models, but I'd never show up with plastic and pewter.

[TheBitzBarn]

how does an unpainted army affect the game at all?

personally, that's an absurd rule; only allowing painted models on the table.

it doesn't take away from the game at all.


if you want painted armies, go to a concourse event. otherwise, quit your whining and play.

How does it take away A LOT this is a Hobby and half the bobby is painting and assembling your mini's. If I got to a event I HATE playing Grey or Primed armies what a waste of my time you made no attempt.

'Ard boyz is the place for that but it does take away cause it shows a lack of effort

[tyrant of khador]

sadly I agree with you that armies should be painted and flocked. Now do these armies need to be pro painted? No I don't think they should and that should be up to the player on how well they should be painted. Now that I have stated where I stand here is the issue at hand that I have encountered several times over that last 2 yrs. Almost every tourney I have gone to except one story has required your armies be fully painted to play in them or you don't play at all. The problem with this has been 20-40 dudes/gals have showed up and maybe if lucky 25% of them have fully painted armies. In these cases the TO has allowed them to play without enforcing this rule for the mere fact only 6 ppl might be able to play with the exception of this one store. Every time I set foot in this guy's store to play in a tourney you better believe every army is at the mini painted. Only problem for me is this store is 2 hrs away and hard for me to get to. Sad to say I truely agree with ya, but if no one enforces this rule whats the point.

[plasticaddict]

I love to play a game where all the models are painted on both sides. Having said that Copeland and I play against each other regularly, his armies are painted to table top and beyond, mine are lucky to have primer on them most of the time. To quote a friend " I love to have painted but I hate to paint." It's something I'm working on but progress is slow. I love to play the game with friends and have fun, I enjoy playing in tournaments for the competitve side of my nature. I enjoy customizing and kit bashing my army to give it a unique look. I enjoy bringing new people into the hobby and having fun. All that said when I have the time an the inclination I try to paint.

[Warptiger]

If you aren't even going to paint the models, then why even take them out of the box?

Yeah, just buy the box, and push that around the table. It has pretty pictures on the outside... a defiler comes in a defiler box, a land raider in a land raider box, etc. You can just push blister packs and boxes around the table.

I'm on the pro-painting side. It's part of the overall hobby. If you don't paint them, then why even buy or build them?

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Though i dont bother playing tournaments, as i find them over rated i do agree with you in that its more enjoyable to play against a painted army than just a gey army.
Reasons are its more appealing, i wont use miniatures that i havent painted or even finished, i just prefer to play with a fully painted army.
another thing is at my locval store where i sometimes play, they hold monthly tournaments, out of nealy all the regulars, and pop ins, i would honestly say maybe less than 40% are completely painted, and most either just a quick spray colour, or not bothered with.
Its sad to see that even if the owner of the armies isnt a very good painter, there not even willing to try, there preference is just a single tone spray on paint job or they just leave them unpainted.
I enjoy playing against painted armies too, id rather play against those people over unpainted ones. But i would understand that for varies reasons people would not have time or other things that keep them from painting.

As for a tournament for just painted armies, well it would be nice but then your dicouraging alot of people who want to play, who just may be too young or dont understand how to paint right or could feel embarrassed to show there paint work.
Several armies at the local store, are honestly really bad at painting, but would i say that to them, no, i appreciate them more if they give it a go, try to there best, hey ive even sat with them and helped out at the painting tables.

[Lerra]

I am surprised to read that there are alot of tournies that minis do not have to be painted.

From a business perspective, it makes sense. Small local gaming stores don't usually make any money from tournaments. They hold tournaments to get new people to visit the store, to keep the local 40k community active and buying, and to encourage loyalty so that you buy from their shop instead of ebay. A business owner wants as many people as possible to come to the tournaments, so they are often kept low-key and no painting is required.

The bigger cons often require painting because they can be more selective.

[Chris Copeland]

how does an unpainted army affect the game at all?

personally, that's an absurd rule; only allowing painted models on the table.

it doesn't take away from the game at all.


if you want painted armies, go to a concourse event. otherwise, quit your whining and play.

Uncle Nutsy, you need to take my Original Post in full. What I was suggesting was that we carry on as usual: lots of tournaments with no painting requirements at all... we don't take away any of them. We simply add a tourney or two now and then for folks like me: tourneys that require painted minis.

You have to agree that what I suggest wouldn't cost you, the player who is more concerned with competitive game play than anything else, anything. Nada. You would still get to play against painted and unpainted armies willy-nilly and enjoy the thrill of the tactics. Nothing would be forced on you and no one would be trying to tell you how the game is supposed to be played. In the midst of all of these regular tourneys would be one for folks like me: come painted or don't come at all... ground rule, like it or lump it. I've seen a lot of vitriol go back and forth between the painted and un-painted crowd of late and it seems like having a tourney every now and again that caters to folks like me is fair and reasonable and doesn't hurt the non-painting crowd... unless, of course it's unreasonable of me to suggest that there be tourneys that cater to my favorite style of play the same way that there are tourneys that already cater to your favorite style of play. BTW, don't answer that. I'm being rhetorical. I definitely believe that both sides need to refrain from imposing their will on the other... dictating how the hobby is supposed to be. I won't do it to you if you won't do it to me.

Cheers. Copeland

PS I live in New Braunfels, Tx. The two major areas to play around here are San Antonio to the south and Austin to the north. I can play at Battleforge Games (populated by the same guys who run BoLS), Dragons Lair in either city, Alien Worlds, the local Club called Alamo Gamers (they run the Alamo GT every year) and several other stores... there is no shortage of places to play along the I35 corridor... and yet I have NEVER seen a tourney like the one I pine for...

PPS What is a Concourse Event?

PPPS To be clear: I will and do play against unpainted armies... PlasticAddict is one of my all time favorite opponents and he RARELY brings fully painted models to the table (his awesome IG army is the closest)... I just PREFER to play against painted armies and I am not above politely refusing a game against an unpainted army (especially if I have a chance to get in a game against a painted army instead).

[Melissia]

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

[klinesmith]

If you aren't even going to paint the models, then why even take them out of the box?

Yeah, just buy the box, and push that around the table. It has pretty pictures on the outside... a defiler comes in a defiler box, a land raider in a land raider box, etc. You can just push blister packs and boxes around the table.

I'm on the pro-painting side. It's part of the overall hobby. If you don't paint them, then why even buy or build them?

Oh, please. This is such a typical logical fallacy.

Perhaps the player buys the models with the intent to build them and then use them as visual representations of different units?

It isn't the paint that does that. By your own logic you could simply paint a pretty box and push it around, eh?

[Uncle Nutsy]

well the question I have in my mind chris, is why do you care so bleeding much whether or not someone has their entire army painted? does it really matter? does the game hang so much on whether or not the person has his stuff painted?

come on.

"why even buy or build them?" because it's FUN to build them! duh!



personally, I don't care if your models are painted in chrome. as long as you're having fun playing the game, that's all that matters.

besides, didn't you guys get into this hobby to have fun in the first place? If that's the case, why ruin it by being a-holes about painting?


"I just PREFER to play against painted armies and I am not above politely refusing a game against an unpainted army"

wow. way to try and hide your crappy attitude. If there was a painted army around and you did that to me, i'd tell you that you're an elitist prick right there to your face and walk right out with my middle finger held high.



oh and just for the record? i do have a painted army. I just can't stand pricks.



As for a tournament for just painted armies, well it would be nice but then your dicouraging alot of people who want to play, who just may be too young or dont understand how to paint right or could feel embarrassed to show there paint work.
Several armies at the local store, are honestly really bad at painting, but would i say that to them, no, i appreciate them more if they give it a go, try to there best, hey ive even sat with them and helped out at the painting tables.

ok this right here? this is awesome. people like you rock and are sorely needed.

[Aldramelech]

I like this thread!

Chris, Move to England! lol

Uncle Nusty - Oh dear, you have appeared to walk into the bar where everybody stops talking and turns round to stare at you.............

[Uncle Nutsy]

and then i stare RIGHT back with a nice little serial killer look. :D

"not fully painted? not fully painted??" *NERDRAGE!*

I wonder though. What if these pro-painter people were members of a car club and they saw a bunch of primer jobs. I bet you they'd go nuts over that too. and then the people who own the primer jobs mock them right back.

would you guys like to meet my friend who proxies IG models as chaos daemons? i bet you would!


-------------


chris:


PPS What is a Concourse Event?

it's a 'best of show' type event, where a person is judged on their paint job.

[Gotthammer]

well the question I have in my mind chris, is why do you care so bleeding much whether or not someone has their entire army painted? does it really matter? does the game hang so much on whether or not the person has his stuff painted?

For some people, yes it does - they find it as much a visual experience as a mental challenge. I know facing a nicely painted army on good terrain is much more enjoyable than primered minis on cardboard boxes.


besides, didn't you guys get into this hobby to have fun in the first place? If that's the case, why ruin it by being a-holes about painting?

For some people paintng is fun, and what they like most about the hobby.



"I just PREFER to play against painted armies and I am not above politely refusing a game against an unpainted army"

wow. way to try and hide your crappy attitude. If there was a painted army around and you did that to me, i'd tell you that you're an elitist prick right there to your face and walk right out with my middle finger held high.

What about if someone wanted to play a game, but then said they knew none of the rules? Would you still play them then, or politely refuse? For some painting is just as important as knowing the rules.



and then i stare RIGHT back with a nice little serial killer look. :D

"not fully painted? not fully painted??" *NERDRAGE!*

I wonder though. What if these pro-painter people were members of a car club and they saw a bunch of primer jobs. I bet you they'd go nuts over that too. and then the people who own the primer jobs mock them right back.

How many classic car shows / races do you go to where there are cars in primer or bare metal? I've never seen one.



would you guys like to meet my friend who proxies IG models as chaos daemons? i bet you would

Are they painted? ;)

[Mike X]

My LGS occasionally has tournaments/campaigns with only painted armies allowed.

[Col.Gravis]

It's a tricky one, because obviously some people think painting is a key part of the hobby, others don't.

For my own part I think for a tournament at least you should have a go at painting, does'nt matter if your a budding Mike McVey or someone who prefers to use a wall painting brush, a 3 Colour minimum in an appropriate scheme is I think the best way of managing it and avoiding sea's of grey and metal which while fine for friendly gaming is less then what you can do, plus that models should be based (i.e some effort given to the bases rather then just plain plastic).

Hell if you really dislike painting it's worth looking into the dipping technique where a few base colours and a dip in either one of the Army Painters dips or floor varnish (IIRC) can produce some very effective resutls with very little time and effort put into it.

3 Colours or more is pretty much a standard for successful tournaments enough in the UK.

Outside of the tournament, well I'll be using some unpainted models tommorrow.

[Aldramelech]

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

We can all sit around together and laugh, HAA HA HAA HAA HA! And point at you and laugh some more Ha ha! You are after all nothing but a pitiful, talentless magot crawling along the edge of a straight razor, crawling, crawling, crawling........

Me and my new painting friends can then relax over drinks whilst we plan mass genocide and world domination! A world where small children are forced to paint huge armies by candle light for our ammusment.
A world where only the artisicaly talented can eat meat. A world where the State of Texas is turned into our very own battleboard!

You will be forced to dance in LEATHER for our disport and ammusment, and we will throw paint at you!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[rbryce]

i like painted armies.thats me.when i go down to my local GW i usually end up sitting at the painting table touching up some minis, offering advice to those just starting the hobby, and generally chatting about the hobby as a whole(painting, fluff, gaming, converting etc). its rare when i get to game, but thats not an issue as i like to help the younger crowd out (sometimes to the exasperation of staff. me-"i recomend gap filling on that canis model." store owner-"ill spray base that for you." me-"heres some GS to get you going, heres how i do mine..."). as to tourneys, i avoid them for a few reasons:

1. im really not that good
2. I play SoB
3. i imagine fully painted at a tourney, and would feel a little let down that most arent.
4. cash

now, these reasons are all my own choice, and i wont force them on others as i feel that would be worse than rude. it would be nice for a tourney to stipulate on painting purely for seeing others skills, interpretations, and army background( a lot about fluff for your army goes into how it looks, such as military personel using their regiments colours, or that guy with an ad mech force). when i go to a tourney i would like to be able to have a chat in the break/lunch/bar about painting and converting more than about tactics/strategy(unless they beat me, or vice versa).

Now, im not detracting from those who dislike painting, sometimes its a chore for me and i cant get in the mood, as such i imagine its worse as a non-painter and must be frustrating at times. as such, i do play against unpainted armies as i reason that its not everyones cup of tea, but would prefer painted just for the spectacle. (i recently managed to get to Phoenix gaming club in rushden and played against the most gorgeous Necron destroyer army on a great board and even though i lost, i loved the spectacle of my rather rennaissance SoB against his crisp gorgeous white necron force in a destroyed plaza environment, really made me think of Sanctuary 101).

I guess i find a painted game more easily evokes the imagery of the 40K universe in my mind, and probably some others too, whereas other gamers find it easier to evoke these images, and as such dont need to paint their minis. This is great, as they are your minis and you should do with them what you want without hinderance, and have a right to do so. As to those of us who love to paint, and love seeing other painted armies, can we not have a forum in which to do so? and a tourney sounds like a good place to see a lot of such armies in a short span. just my opnion though, take it as you will.

[mysterex]

I play events regularly and I've never been to one yet where people have been allowed to use unpainted miniatures. The standard is always 3 colours minimum and painting along with composition and sportsmanship are always included in working out the tournament winner.

I guess things are just different in this part of the world.

[TheBitzBarn]

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

Are you looking to start a flame war? No one even said anything about elitist. The original post stated painted. I consider myself a very good painter but I do not judge people who put there best foot forward but also the more you do it the bettter you become. This is totally a Practice make perfect aspect of the hobby oh wait so is playing games.

When someone tells me they cannot paint I pull out a model form my first army and show them and it looked bad but after 5 armies I got a LOT better as anyone who puts any effort can.

I believe the original poster was not looking to be elitist but wanted painted armies to play against. That means your best effort not Golden daemon skill level.

[TheBitzBarn]

All I say is put an effort does not mean you have the best army but an effort is all that I think. I will never degrade someone for their best effort

[Col.Gravis]

All I say is put an effort does not mean you have the best army but an effort is all that I think. I will never degrade someone for their best effort

Completely agreed.

[Aldramelech]

Completely agreed.

X2

[Chris Copeland]

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

Melissia, if you will go back and look at my Original Post you'll see that no mocking is going on and no douchebaggery is mentioned. I simply gently suggested that it would be nice to go no one event that catered to the aspect of the hobby I dig... one little event... I followed up by saying "hey, let's make sure it doesn't take away from any of the existing events... let's carry on as usual but also put out there a tourney that Chris would really enjoy: a tourney were you have to paint up your army to play..."

As for Uncle Nutsy:

well the question I have in my mind chris, is why do you care so bleeding much whether or not someone has their entire army painted? does it really matter? does the game hang so much on whether or not the person has his stuff painted?

come on.

What does it matter to me? Why does it matter? Does it really matter? Well, in the grand scheme of things (AIDS, the Gulf Spill, Global Warming, etc) it doesn't. However, when it comes to playing with little toy soldiers it matters to me. I have more fun seeing two painted armies clash. I personally get more enjoyment out of it. It is a big aspect of the hobby to me.

So let's say yer on the non-painting side of this divide. You see Chris' Painted Only 40K Tourney. Your choices seem to me to be:
*Paint up an army and join in the fun (just like I happily go to Steamroller & 'Ard Boyz events)
*Keep on walking and say to yourself, "Man, I hope those guys have a good day gaming."
*Get mad and think that anyone who enjoys our hobby differently than you is an elitist douchebag...

I've heard a lot of "You painters can't tell us what this hobby is about recently." If you go back and look at my Original Post you'll see that I've whole-heartedly embraced that position. None of us has the right to tell the rest HOW to enjoy this hobby. I make that explicitly clear in my Original Post.

So now my rhetorical question: aren't Nutsy and Mellisia doing exactly what they oppose? Isn't implying that a Tourney for Painters is a Tourney for Douches trying to apply social pressure to get me to step away from my desire for the Tourney for Painters? Am I even allowed, in that paradigm, to enjoy playing against painted armies more? Are you lot trying to tell me what aspect of the hobby is most important?


PS All the posts that indicate there are plenty of tourneys around where painting is required make me jealous... in the 4ish years I've been playing I've not seen one such event in the greater San Antonio area...

[Chris Copeland]

All I say is put an effort does not mean you have the best army but an effort is all that I think. I will never degrade someone for their best effort

Hear, hear! I will join my pro-brush friends and also completely agree with this...

[Gotthammer]

PS All the posts that indicate there are plenty of tourney around where painting is required make me jealous... in the 4ish years I've been playing I've not seen one such event in the greater San Antonio area...

First tourney I went to was 'painted armies only - any non painted (3 colour) armies will not be allowed to play. First army I was up against was pure grey plastic and some of them didn't have any arms.
Dissapointing, but I played on without complaining about it and he was a nice guy. The organisers didn't enforce it in the slightest, but I think all bar two or three were painted up.



All I say is put an effort does not mean you have the best army but an effort is all that I think. I will never degrade someone for their best effort

Ditto

[HsojVvad]

What is going on here? This is about a tourney for people who like painted armies. Why are the people who are in the camp of not painted armies complaining here?

I am in the camp of your minis do not have to be painted and things can be proxied. But I would never go to a tourney with unpainted minis. I would never go there and complain because they have a right to play with other painted minis if they choose too.

This is like going to a rock concert. You wouldn't go to a symphony to hear rock music now would you? You wouldn't go to a rap concert if you want to listen to Opera. If you want to listen to rock music you go to a rock concert.

If you want to listen to a symphony but you go to a rock concert you better expect to hear rock music and no sympohony.

Just like going to a fully painted tourney. You better have your minis fully painted then. There is nothing wrong with Chris wanting to go to a Tourney where it's fully painted. These people who go to these tournies either have all their minis painted, or want to play with like minded people who have fully painted armies. He is not taking anything away from us non painted army players.

If there was no fully painted tourney, then there would be no tourney at all. So what is the big deal?

He is not saying you have to have your army painted, he would gladly play with us, with our unpainted armies. He would just like to see every army in a tourney fully painted once in a while. There is nothing wrong with this.

For those who want to play in a Tourney that requires a fully painted army, then make shure your army is painted. The only thing is, this Tourney better make shure the person showing up knows and clearly understands that the army has to be fully painted. You just dont turn people away if they do not know before hand without prior knowledge.

[Shavnir]

I just want to go to a tournament where people all bring legal armies and know the rules. So far this has happened maybe once in Warhammer / 40k.

Also I think the thing 40k is missing is a smaller 'ard boyz format. The reason 'ard boyz are dumb is not because of the format, its because of the point level. If there was an actual unpainted series of tournaments for those of us that don't enjoy painting to go to we wouldn't have to complain every time someone says "If you want to play in this tournament do this 10-20 hour chore first".

That being said I don't like seeing people say (and this is paraphrased from a local mailing list) "I don't want to go to a tournament to play against unpainted crap", so you might understand why some of us end up a tad defensive.

EDIT :



I feel that there are LOADS of tourneys out there that cater to folks who don't give a whit about painting and I find that to be well and good... GW's 'Ard Boyz and Privateer's Steamroller tourneys spring instantly to mind. My suggestion is a simple one: we need a tourney now and then that caters to folks like me.

Just to go back to the OP, you do realize that every single tournament with a painting score indirectly tailors to people like you. I don't know about your area but in my area 'ard boyz are once a year and painting encouraged / enforced / scored tournaments are monthly at worst.

[HsojVvad]

That being said I don't like seeing people say (and this is paraphrased from a local mailing list) "I don't want to go to a tournament to play against unpainted crap", so you might understand why some of us end up a tad defensive.

This is the problem, all you had to say was "I don't want to go to a tournamnet to play agaisnt unpainted minis.

Because you said crap, that is making a statement agaisnt other people and the debates start again.

There is nothing wrong in not painting your armies, and there is nothing wrong in other people wanting to play with fully painted armies only.

The problem we have is once someone starts forcing thier views onto others or saying how you have to do your hobby in your own home.

[BuFFo]

I really don't know what you are getting at.

Most 'big' tourneys only allow painted armies.

The 'Ard Boyz is the only one I can think of that does not.

I am all for tourneys that only allow painted armies. You know what you are getting into in advance. Plus, they've been the prevalent tourney type for nearly two decades, so nothing new here about that lol.

[Cossack]

I hadn't played in a tournament in years specifically because of the unpainted crap I'd see in games. But recently there was a tourney that REQUIRED painted armies (clearly listed on the website). So I paid my entry fee and was looking forward to going.

But then the unpainted army goons started whining and the organizer decided to drop that requirement. So I show up and see unpainted armies! Fortunately only a few, and very fortunately none were my opponents.

But this reallly ticks me off - it was a tourney for painted armies only, as proposed in this thread, but the lazy gamers whined because they couldn't paint their armies in two months and requirements were changed.

[Melissia]

Melissia, if you will go back and look at my Original Post you'll see that no mocking is going on and no douchebaggery is mentioned. I simply gently suggested that it would be nice to go no one event that catered to the aspect of the hobby I dig... one little event... I followed up by saying "hey, let's make sure it doesn't take away from any of the existing events... let's carry on as usual but also put out there a tourney that Chris would really enjoy: a tourney were you have to paint up your army to play..."

And did I say anything about you personally?

No, I said I'd rather avoid this kind of event because it would attract the kind of people that act smugly superior.

I know I'm not a good painter-- that is not to say I have no artistic capability, but I tend to be much better with greyscale art than color (especially with advanced drawing and shading techniques in pencil drawings). So I don't sign up for Golden Daemon, and there's a good reason for this, or any tournament that has a painting score that directly effects your gaiming score. That doesn't stop painters from openly mocking my models and even insulting me for the mediocre to bad paint jobs that I produce. Gamers, at least, will usually respect me because I can make good tactical decisions.

[Chris Copeland]

I really don't know what you are getting at.

Most 'big' tourneys only allow painted armies.

The 'Ard Boyz is the only one I can think of that does not.

I am all for tourneys that only allow painted armies. You know what you are getting into in advance. Plus, they've been the prevalent tourney type for nearly two decades, so nothing new here about that lol.

I've been playing for about four years and have as yet to see a tourney that was come painted or don't come at all. I'd really like to see one. I play in the greater San Antonio, Texas area... I also play in Austin from time to time. Every tourney I've ever seen has been filled with unpainted minis.

Let me reiterate something: I have no problem at ALL with others enjoying other aspects of the hobby. I will NEVER tell you how to enjoy this hobby. I am as live and let live a player you'll find. Back to my Original Post: I'd like to got to A tourney that caters to my tastes...

[Chris Copeland]

And did I say anything about you personally?

No, I said I'd rather avoid this kind of event because it would attract the kind of people that act smugly superior.

I know I'm not a good painter-- that is not to say I have no artistic capability, but I tend to be much better with greyscale art than color (especially with advanced drawing and shading techniques in pencil drawings). So I don't sign up for Golden Daemon, and there's a good reason for this, or any tournament that has a painting score that directly effects your gaiming score. That doesn't stop painters from openly mocking my models and even insulting me for the mediocre to bad paint jobs that I produce. Gamers, at least, will usually respect me because I can make good tactical decisions.

Hmmm.... I think that your original douchebag post in this thread implied that folks that would attend such events are douchebags. So, technically, you didn't say anything about me personally... you were painting with a much broader stroke...

As for painters openly mocking you, all I can say is "Wow." I've never met that kind of jerk in the Austin-San Antonio area. I would NEVER mock someone for putting paint on their minis. Ever. I honor anyone who takes time to paint up their minis. I'm a gamer and a painter at the same time.

[Melissia]

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

Emphasis mine. That part would indicate that would be the reason why I call them douchebags in the first place. Hell, I've seen the elitist painter type openly mock a new player for playing ultramarines out of the Black Reach boxset. I don't like Ultramarines and most people probably have guessed that much by now (Personally, I prefer space wolves or custom-created chapters with their own fluff), but I'm not gonna make fun of anyone for choosing them... it's a personal choice, not something someone else should make, nor something one should disrespect.

[klinesmith]

Hmmm.... I think that your original douchebag post in this thread implied that folks that would attend such events are douchebags. So, technically, you didn't say anything about me personally... you were painting with a much broader stroke...

As for painters openly mocking you, all I can say is "Wow." I've never met that kind of jerk in the Austin-San Antonio area. I would NEVER mock someone for putting paint on their minis. Ever. I honor anyone who takes time to paint up their minis. I'm a gamer and a painter at the same time.

I think everyone can agree that if the tournament requires a painted army that's fine. The debate (see my thread) is over the casual aspect of the game and how some pro-painters and some non-painters butt heads constantly.

The simple truth is that there is no right way to enjoy this hobby (despite what that terrible, terrible debater Cossak would want to think). There is only the hobby and like-minded people enjoying the same social aspects of the game. The ONLY problem I have with the painting camp are two arguments:

1)You must paint before you can play. I spent the time, you need to spend the time.

Rebuttal: Your opinion on how someone should spend there spare time is unimportant. Do not act as though it is fact. No one intends to spend the several hundred dollars they do to buy an army they may not be able to play for a good 2-5 months. In my case I am a meticulous painter, I refuse to agree that I should not play because of the time I take painting a horde ork army.

2) Why even take models out of boxes?

Rebuttal: Paint is not what makes a model a model. The mold makes the model a model. The visual representation of the unit is overwhelmingly based on the mold, not the colors your chose. There are plenty of other things in life that in theory we can spend more time perfecting, but we are not required to do so by some immutable law.

That's really all.

[lobster-overlord]

Several tourneys I've been a part of or have even run have been where we allow unpainted to play the games, but they cannot win because of that. Even to the point where there are separate painting contests in addition to the painting component of the main tourney. Obviously, only painted items can be submitted in this portion, and had equal/comparable prize support. So painted armies not only had ability to win, but win TWICE for being painted.

Unpainted armies had no chance of winning anything other than Sportsmanship prizes, which for one of our tournies, he was also the best painter in the lot, so he won big, although lost the overall due to losing in the final round.

John M.

[BuFFo]

I've been playing for about four years and have as yet to see a tourney that was come painted or don't come at all. I'd really like to see one. I play in the greater San Antonio, Texas area... I also play in Austin from time to time. Every tourney I've ever seen has been filled with unpainted minis.

Let me reiterate something: I have no problem at ALL with others enjoying other aspects of the hobby. I will NEVER tell you how to enjoy this hobby. I am as live and let live a player you'll find. Back to my Original Post: I'd like to got to A tourney that caters to my tastes...

Yeah, I said 'major' tournaments, like GTs and such. The once a year affairs. That's what I meant.

I wasn't talking about dime a dozen local rinkadink tournaments. :)

[Chris Copeland]

The simple truth is that there is no right way to enjoy this hobby...

This is a position I wholeheartedly embrace. I've even said so on your thread, Klinesmith. So I was mildly surprised when Uncle Nutsy and Mellissia jumped into this thread with comments that seemed to run counter to the positions that many anti-painters stake out (i.e., stop telling me how to enjoy my hobby).

My take seems so simple: I love battles between fully painted armies. Tourneys that require fully painted armies never seem to happen in my corner of the world. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a tourney that was specific to people who enjoy battling painted armies only? I go to all the hard-core tourneys favored by the die-hard tacticians without complaint... can't there be one that caters to the painting-snobs in the same way that Ard Boyz caters to the tactics-snobs? (Aside: I am being tongue in cheek ascribing the term snob to either camp).

So... cheers... good gaming and painting to all...

[Melissia]

Mellissia jumped into this thread with comments that seemed to run counter to the positions that many anti-painters stake out (i.e., stop telling me how to enjoy my hobby).

And you are misreading my post if you're really thinking that. Considering I've stated that phrase in the past. No, my post was an objection to joining a tournament where I would have to play with elitist pricks-- I never told anyone how to enjoy their hobby.

[Chris Copeland]

...No, my post was an objection to joining a tournament where I would have to play with elitist pricks...

So let's get a clarification (since you seem to be parsing your statements so closely): are you suggesting that Chris' Fully Painted Only Tourney would inherently be a tourney for elitists pricks? The implication is clearly there given that you inserted it into this thread... a thread that began with live and let live, let me find A tourney that would really make me happy...

Is your position that anyone who would enjoy such a tourney is an elitist prick?

[Melissia]

If people like Cossack and others that I've met IRL with a similar attitude were playing? Yes.

[Aldramelech]

If people like Cossack and others that I've met IRL with a similar attitude were playing? Yes.

Oh no you dont.......

A simple unqualified Yes or No.

Answer the Fecking question!

Or are you running for office?

[Chris Copeland]

If people like Cossack and others that I've met IRL with a similar attitude were playing? Yes.

OK. What if it's a tourney filled with normal folk... folk like me? Folk who have a completely live and let live philosophy but would also REALLY enjoy a tourney that caters to the part of the hobby that they are really into...?

To put it another way: does my wanting to go to Chris' Fully Painted Tourney automatically make me an elitist prick in your, Mellissia's, eyes?

To rephrase yet again: there are tactics-enthusiasts and painting-enthusiasts... in your eyes are painting-enthusiasts who'd like to go to Chris' Fully Painted Tourney automatically elitist pricks? Cheers...

[Jwolf]

I think coming to a major tournament not fully painted to at least a 3-color standard is personally objectionable. And I'm pretty much the opposite of an elitist painting snob. But the percentage of people who are incapable of putting 3 colors on models is pretty small, and all of those people need an assistant to play the game as well. (Small children and people with significant physical handicaps, like blindness or no arms).

[Chris Copeland]

I think coming to a major tournament not fully painted to at least a 3-color standard is personally objectionable...

JWolf, there are plenty of folks on this forum who would jump on you and accuse you of trying to impose your gaming prejudices on them for your above innocuous statement... I've seen it happen, brother!

From Central Command Games in San Antonio all the way up to BattleForge Games in Austin I have as yet to see a tourney like the one I describe... even the Alamo 40K Indy GT in San Antonio explicitly states on their website that unpainted minis are allowed...

I am just openly wishing for ONE such event... not imposing my will on the non-painting crowd, not being an elitist prick... simply saying, "Man, it would be great if I could go to ONE tournament that had this rule... I would really dig that... it would be SO MUCH fun for folks like me who really dig that aspect of the hobby..."

Cheers...

RIP Central Command... /sad tear trickles down face...

[Shavnir]

This is the problem, all you had to say was "I don't want to go to a tournamnet to play agaisnt unpainted minis.

Because you said crap, that is making a statement agaisnt other people and the debates start again.

There is nothing wrong in not painting your armies, and there is nothing wrong in other people wanting to play with fully painted armies only.

The problem we have is once someone starts forcing thier views onto others or saying how you have to do your hobby in your own home.

Did you miss the part where I was paraphrasing from a local mailing list? I've fielded everything from the gamut of fully unpainted to fully painted, and upon seeing that I almost considered bringing both a fully painted and a fully unpainted set of the same army to swap out against that guy.

[Melissia]

JWolf, there are plenty of folks on this forum who would jump on you and accuse you of trying to impose your gaming prejudices on them for your above innocuous statement... I've seen it happen, brother!

What you've seen is people objecting to being SCORED on their painting (there's a huge difference...), and then some arrogant ****bags trying to claim that painting is the entire purpose of the hobby and anyone who doesn't agree needs to get out of the hobby.

As for your suggestion of a tourney filled by normal people? I haven't been to (Whether I'm just watching a friend or actually participating) one yet that hasn't had at least SOMEONE grating on my nerves in some fashion or other. Quite frequently it's the TO for that matter...

But if this thread's just about talking about the ideal fantasy (in the sense of fantasizing) tournament, I'd suggest that the most important part of a tournament isn't whether or not the army's painted, it's how friendly everyone is. Whether it required three colors on all models, or if it had no painting requirements at all, what matters the most is how people interact with eachother. That's what makes it actually enjoyable.

[HsojVvad]

Did you miss the part where I was paraphrasing from a local mailing list? I've fielded everything from the gamut of fully unpainted to fully painted, and upon seeing that I almost considered bringing both a fully painted and a fully unpainted set of the same army to swap out against that guy.

Yes I did. Sorry I didn't see you were paraphrasing.

Damn bloody heat wave. I don't mind the heat, I hate the humidity. Still no excuse for misreading it. I can admit when I was wrong.

[Aldramelech]

What you've seen is people objecting to being SCORED on their painting (there's a huge difference...), and then some arrogant ****bags trying to claim that painting is the entire purpose of the hobby and anyone who doesn't agree needs to get out of the hobby.

Ahhh no, just one actually.......

As for your suggestion of a tourney filled by normal people? I haven't been to (Whether I'm just watching a friend or actually participating) one yet that hasn't had at least SOMEONE grating on my nerves in some fashion or other. Quite frequently it's the TO for that matter...

What a surprise. Thats 90% of the population aint it?

But if this thread's just about talking about the ideal fantasy (in the sense of fantasizing) tournament, I'd suggest that the most important part of a tournament isn't whether or not the army's painted, it's how friendly everyone is. Whether it required three colors on all models, or if it had no painting requirements at all, what matters the most is how people interact with eachother. That's what makes it actually enjoyable.

No. Those are YOUR priorities, not Chris's.

[Aldramelech]

OK. What if it's a tourney filled with normal folk... folk like me? Folk who have a completely live and let live philosophy but would also REALLY enjoy a tourney that caters to the part of the hobby that they are really into...?

To put it another way: does my wanting to go to Chris' Fully Painted Tourney automatically make me an elitist prick in your, Mellissia's, eyes?

To rephrase yet again: there are tactics-enthusiasts and painting-enthusiasts... in your eyes are painting-enthusiasts who'd like to go to Chris' Fully Painted Tourney automatically elitist pricks? Cheers...

Dont let her off the hook Chris.....

I for one want a simple yes or no answer.

We want the truth! And yes we can handle the truth!:p

[Melissia]

1: Yes, there were several people saying that.
2: No, it only takes a few idiots to turn the tone of an event sour.
3: No **** Sherlock, my opinions indeed ARE my own opinions. Thanks for stating the obvious. Now, to paraphrase the immortal words of Shaekspeare: leave, pursued by a bear

[Aldramelech]

1: Yes, there were several people saying that.
2: No, it only takes a few idiots to turn the tone of an event sour.
3: No **** Sherlock, my opinions indeed ARE my own opinions. Thanks for stating the obvious. Now, to paraphrase the immortal words of Shaekspeare: leave, pursued by a bear

No:D

Answer the question! (Wheres Jeremy Packsman when you need him?)

Your not going to are you? Not truthfully anyway, and you know why don't you?

(Im sure the Bard would be thrilled at having been misquoted and mispelled)

[Chris Copeland]

...if this thread's just about talking about the ideal fantasy (in the sense of fantasizing) tournament, I'd suggest that the most important part of a tournament isn't whether or not the army's painted, it's how friendly everyone is. Whether it required three colors on all models, or if it had no painting requirements at all, what matters the most is how people interact with eachother. That's what makes it actually enjoyable.

Melissia, I must say that looks like a bit of ducking and dodging to me. Of course, a tournament will ideally be filled with friendly folk who are just happy to be there gaming... who could argue with that?

This thread covers a slightly different topic: how nice it would be for someone who really likes the painting aspect of this hobby to be able to attend a tourney that had the requirement that only painted armies would be allowed in. I went on to make clear that I'd like this to be done in a way that didn't take away from anyone else in any way... further, I made it clear that I fully embrace the "don't tell me how to play" philosophy.

You jumped into this thread saying that you wouldn't want to go because you'd like to avoid the douche-bag, elitist pricks who'd attend such a tourney. That makes me think that you feel that anyone who'd attend a painted-only tourney is a douche-bag elitist prick (your words).

So I'm asking you as plainly as I can: does attending Chris' Painted Models Only Hypothetical Tournament automatically make a gamer a douche-bag elitist prick in your eyes?

The above question doesn't seem to need any qualifications. You don't need to pin anything on Cossack or Aldramelech... I'm talking about a hypothetical tourney with a basic ground rule that says, "Hey, here's a tourney for those of you who are into this aspect of the hobby."

It seems the possible answers are:
1. No, wanting to attend such a tourney clearly doesn't make someone an elitist prick... gosh, folks like that are just doing what everyone does: enjoyhing this hobby the way they like to... I hope they have fun at that tournament...
2. Yes, if you'd get enjoyment out of a tournament like that then you must be an elitist prick... ha! I have a much deeper understanding of how this hobby should be than you! Only tactics matter!

Cheers...

[Melissia]

Did I ever say it did? No? Well there's your answer isn't it? That much should have been rather plainly obvious.

[Chris Copeland]

Did I ever say it did? No? Well there's your answer isn't it? That much should have been rather plainly obvious.

What you said was this:

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

The clear implication behind such harsh language seems to be that people who would attend are elitist painter douche-bags that need to be avoided.

By extension, it seems that you harshly judge those of us who (however gently) like to play with painted models. You take a rather elite view of the hobby, looking down upon those who's like to spend the afternoon rolling the bones only with other folks who also brought painted armies.

So I come for clarification: does wanting to attend a tourney that requires you to bring a painted army make one an elitist painter douche-bag?

I, for one, say no. I don't think it does. I'm just a guy pining for one tourney that would be more geared toward me than the pure tactics-lovers. Being a painting-lover does not make me an elitist douche-bag... and before you start parsing semantics again (saying that you never specifically called me that) just look at your own words above where you clearly imply that it does. Cheers...

[razcalking]

As for your suggestion of a tourney filled by normal people? I haven't been to (Whether I'm just watching a friend or actually participating) one yet that hasn't had at least SOMEONE grating on my nerves in some fashion or other. Quite frequently it's the TO for that matter...

If you've been annoyed by someone at every single tournament that you've been to, perhaps the problem isn't other people. The common denominator in all of those situations was YOU.

[Melissia]

That is an incredibly logically fallacious way to argue, Chris Copeland. What I said was the following, broken down into its logical components (including the context behind the post):

1: X [elitist painter douchebags] show up at tournaments/competitions that emphasize painting.
...and...
2: I do not want to go to a tournament with X category players.

Notice what I did not say? That's right, I didn't say ALL people who show up at said tournaments are X category players. That was YOUR assumption, YOUR supposition, YOUR statement. Do not put YOUR ideas into my posts. I did not say that. YOU did. Notice the annoyed, accusatory tone of this post. I don't like it when people put words that I did not say into my posts. You have done this.


Razcalking: The most common denominator was the presence of people, a group of which I and most other human beings are a member of.

[Chris Copeland]

That is an incredibly logically fallacious way to argue, Chris Copeland. What I said was the following, broken down into its logical components (including the context behind the post):

1: X [elitist painter douchebags] show up at tournaments/competitions that emphasize painting.
...and...
2: I do not want to go to a tournament with X category players.

Notice what I did not say? That's right, I didn't say ALL people who show up at said tournaments are X category players. That was YOUR assumption, YOUR supposition, YOUR statement. Do not put YOUR ideas into my posts. I did not say that. YOU did.

Please. Call me Chris. Or Copeland. "Chris Copeland" together sounds so formal... I never said you said that. I said you implied that. Parse all the words you want, Melissia: you are the one who walked into my gentle thread swinging, implying that folks who'd attend a Fully Painted Tourney are elitist douche-bags.

So you DO agree that a person can want to go to a painted only tourney and still be a nice, reasonable gamer? Cheers...

[Squirrel_Fish]

Personally, I think it would be nice. If someone puts forward the effort to put a three color minimum onto their entire army, I won't chastise it. I don't care if you have the simplest color scheme in the world or if your entire army is a Golden Daemon winning wonder. It's just nice to see that people care enough about the other aspects of Warhammer 40k/Fantasy.

Frankly, I think it just adds to the game. The last game I played at the club was my Eldar vs Space Wolves. Both armies painted and on a fully painted and appropriately terrain'd board. Was it the most challenging game or the most satisfying? No, the guy was fairly new to it. However, I wouldn't describe it as a bad game simply because the elements were all there to appeal to my visual senses. It'd be like watching a hollywood blockbuster filled with tons of special effects, but only seeing the green screen instead of explosions or laser beams.

Mel's opinion that a tournament like this would bring forth a bunch of elitest snobs who are going to criticize a person's army is incorrect. Almost tournament, whether requiring fully painted or not, is going to draw in at least one elitest snob who is going to criticize you. To be honest, I've seen people who bring in bare plastic who have given me crap for actually wanting to put paint onto plastic.

Summed up, my points are this.

1) Asking for fully painted armies are not for snobs, it's a fairly simple request for you to respect the whole tabletop gaming experience.
2) We don't expect it to be absolutely stunning. Painted miniatures add a lot of verisimilitude.
3) Any tournament, any format. There will always be one douche-nozzle (not a mere container, but a dispenser of douche)...

Squirrel Fish

[Melissia]

Neither the logic nor the wording of my post implied it. English is not a perfect language, nor is my ability to deliver it perfect, but in this case you were using a strawman rather than my actual post.

[murrburger]

I'd go to a tourney where only painted armies are involved. My painting isn't awesome, but it's table-quality. Might make me finish my Blood Angels.

I mean, it's not like I'm being forced to go there or anything. Even if I didn't want to go, there's no reason why you can't have this hypothetical tourney.

I just hope gaming and painting scores are separate. :p

[Chris Copeland]

1) Asking for fully painted armies are not for snobs, it's a fairly simple request for you to respect the whole tabletop gaming experience.
2) We don't expect it to be absolutely stunning. Painted miniatures add a lot of verisimilitude.
3) Any tournament, any format. There will always be one douche-nozzle (not a mere container, but a dispenser of douche)

Douche-nozzle. Hilarious! I've not heard the term. (Coincidentally, I'd not seen an adult use the term douche as an insult in years... it seems so 4th grade)...

I agree with you, Squirrel Fish. Many people on the pro-painting side don't even see this as a debate at all... we belong to the paint if you want, don't paint if you don't want to school of thought... sometimes I'll game with folks who have unpainted minis (I'm looking at you PlasticAddict) and sometimes I'll pass on those to get in games with fully painted armies.

Melissia had a very good point: the quality of the tourney is determined by how nice the folks are.

That being said, this thread was still an out loud wish for something I've never seen in my little part of Texas: a tournament specifically for those gamers who really dig painting...

Chris

[razcalking]

Razcalking: The most common denominator was the presence of people, a group of which I and most other human beings are a member of.

And also a group that you apparently can't communicate with or deal with in a pleasant, non-confrontational manner.

[Chris Copeland]

Neither the logic nor the wording of my post implied it. English is not a perfect language, nor is my ability to deliver it perfect, but in this case you were using a strawman rather than my actual post.

I guess we are down to the part wherein we must agree to disagree. From my perspective that is exactly what your post implies. I was glad to see you acknowledge that not all folks who might want to go to a fully-painted-only-tourney are elitist douche-bag pricks... that seemed reasonable...

Take care. Cheers. Good gaming to all... Chris

[Melissia]

And also a group that you apparently can't communicate with or deal with in a pleasant, non-confrontational manner.

Do not make assumptions about what happens outside of this forum, as you would not know.


I guess we are down to the part wherein we must agree to disagree. From my perspective that is exactly what your post implies. I was glad to see you acknowledge that not all folks who might want to go to a fully-painted-only-tourney are elitist douche-bag pricks... that seemed reasonable...

Take care. Cheers. Good gaming to all... Chris

I'm sad that you felt you had to see me acknowledge. It's insulting that you would assume I would say that in the first palce.

[Chris Copeland]

I'm sad that you felt you had to see me acknowledge. It's insulting that you would assume I would say that in the first palce.

Again, we are down to the agree-to-disagree part of this conversation. YOU are the one who walked into this thread (which I'd labored to make as gentle as possible) with words like douche-bag and elitist prick. I am likewise insulted.

You don't want to imply something? You don't want to give off an impression? You don't want to be mis-interpreted? OK... perhaps not coming in implying that folks on the opposite side of an issue from you are elitist prick douche-bags would be a better way to go.

I think I even mentioned in my OP something about how easy it is to be misunderstood on the interwebz...

So, Melissia, I am quite happy to agree to disagree with you. I might also agree with you from time to time. I will never, however, call names. I post under my real name on the interwebz on purpose... it keeps me honest and keeps me polite...

Cheers... Chris

[Melissia]

OK... perhaps not coming in implying that folks on the opposite side of an issue from you are elitist prick douche-bags would be a better way to go.Then it is a good thing that this is something I did not do.

If you wish to willfully misinterpret my posts, then yes, agreeing to disagree is the best you can hope for.

[Chris Copeland]

Parse things how you wish, but from my perspective that is exactly what you did. We are now heading into the pointless, "yes you did, no I didn't stage" of the conversation...

Perhaps we should put up a poll that asks the BoLs community if they think your words implied what I say they implied... not that I see the point. As you said, English can be an inexact language... and as I said, it's easy to be mis-read on the inter-webz...

Toodles.

[Squirrel_Fish]

Alright, stop it. Both of you. I hate seeing a perfectly good topic being derailed like this due to an 'I'm right, he's wrong' argument.

Mel - would you please explain why you think this style of tournament is a bad idea? Keep in mind that Copeland is not saying an army has to be painted at levels of Golden Daemons, just painted.

If I may bring up your original post in this thread...

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

What's the difference if there's an elitest painting douchebag and an elitest competitive "I'm-Better-Than-All-Of-You" douchebag? No matter what tournament scene you go to, you're going to have people who will be elitest jerks. Why differentiate?

[Melissia]

There is no difference, except that I'm starting to see more of the former now than the latter.

[Commissar Lewis]

I can relate to the dislike of overly pompous, elitist d bags. Those kind of people ruin any hobby, be it music, video games, books, 40k, etc. But the sad thing is, no matter what there will always be elitists.

I say we toss the elitists on the Event Horizon and activate the gravity drive, but that'd just be mean. Best anti-elitist method is troll em. But I'm rambling at this point.

[TheBitzBarn]

There is no difference, except that I'm starting to see more of the former now than the latter.

Melissa,

You have always seemed to start flame wars on this forum. I have seen many an civil discussion go down hill once you post. I know this might be harsh to say but you need to chill. Your post in my opinion are argumentative and incendiary a lot of the time. This was a civic discussion until your douchebag comment from 6 pages ago.

Painting is part of the hobby PERIOD. I do not care if you paint as good as me as long as you put an effort forward. When I know a player can do better and I have the proper relationship and they show at an event, I will rib them for it, but only when I know the person. Painting should count in event but only the most rudimentary scores such as; did you paint them, or are they based. I am sorry if a couple people have pissed you off but get over it.

You do not know Chris Copeland so show him respect and assume he is the person he stated in the beginning.

Have a Great Week.


Robert

[Melissia]

Painting is part of the hobby PERIODWhat your little rant seems to be missing is that noone is denying this.

The argument is between a group of people who thinks painting is an all-important aspect of the hobby with no other aspects mattering, and everyone else. And then some confused people in the middle trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

And yes, if you had paid attention you'd have seen people indeed took the former position.

Also? Don't flat out tell me who to respect. You have no idea who I respect or don't respect. I do not give a cockroach's corpse what you think on that subject, and your post does not show you to be any more socially competent than I in that regard.

[BuFFo]

Melissa,

You have always seemed to start flame wars on this forum.

He is an admitted troll. Due to the lack of ANY real forum rules, or any real moderation, Melissa has found a home where he can start flame wars and troll people at will.

It is really that simple. You can't get any real moderation going on at all on this forum, so people like him just troll and flame to their hearts content.

If this forum were like a 'real' 40k forum, with actual rules and moderation, Melissa would have been banned last year, easy.

Best thing to do is to put him on ignore, and forget he even exists.

Odd to, because over the past few weeks I sensed a change in his posting manners, and I thought I saw him change for the better, but the last few days, wow, he has just gone all out in the insult/harass/flame/troll front like it's WWIII!!

[Commissar Lewis]

I dunno I never much had a problem with Melissia.

Of course, I hail from the land of the Current Events board of gamefaqs, the capital city of trolls and fools. I've seen true trolls, and naught on BoLS is a true troll.

Also contrary to popular belief trolls are immune to fire and flame.

[eldargal]

I spend a fair chunk of time trawling Warseer and some of the other forums for rumours. BolS is the epitomy of civilised discourse in comparison, believe me.:rolleyes: No trolls, just some very opinionated people, which is fine.
I'm all for fully painted armies in tournaments, but I can see why Melissia thinks it will attract a nasty sort. There are an awful lot of people out there who use the quality of their paintjobs to make other players feel bad. We ban that sort from our group but you can't do that with a tournament. Unless it was invitation only.

[plasticaddict]

It's sad to see a thread about having a painted only tounament turned into a parse the phrase fest. I will say that Chris is a friend of mine and someone that I disagree with over many, many things. However one thing I have never been able to accuse him of is taking people statements out of context. Melissa you and I have both agreed and disagreed over many things on this very forum and I must say your first post was inflammatory, mildly offensive and worded to incite a negative response. You are correct in your statement that both English and you ability to use it are inperfect, however you choice of words (douchebag, prick) set the tone of your statement.

All that said I, a person firmly on the "I hate painting side of the hobby", wouldn't mind playing in a three color painted and based only tournamnet. Painting required does not mean painting score. I have participated in tournamnets and escalation leagues that encouraged painting by having seperate prize support for painting in addition to best general.

[Melissia]

If people think THIS place is full of trolls, they should try Dakka-Dakka or RelicNews...

[BuFFo]

Just assuming that a tournament where painting is required would be full of elitists pricks and douche bags is such a childish and ignorant concept that it blows my mind. There is no way that that statement can even be construed into an adult conversation at all.

From the mid 90's until now, the majority of GW GTs have had painting requirements, and the people you find at those tournaments are top shelf people, bar none. Yeah, you'll find one tool that chipmunks you, but that is rare indeed.

[Melissia]

Just assuming that a tournament where painting is required would be full of elitists pricks and douche bags is such a childish and ignorant concept that it blows my mind. There is no way that that statement can even be construed into an adult conversation at all.

From the mid 90's until now, the majority of GW GTs have had painting requirements, and the people you find at those tournaments are top shelf people, bar none.

Ah, now I remember why I ignored you. Willfully misreading posts even long after the post has been explained. Back on the list you go...

[Shavnir]

Melissa,

You have always seemed to start flame wars on this forum. I have seen many an civil discussion go down hill once you post. I know this might be harsh to say but you need to chill. Your post in my opinion are argumentative and incendiary a lot of the time. This was a civic discussion until your douchebag comment from 6 pages ago.

Painting is part of the hobby PERIOD. I do not care if you paint as good as me as long as you put an effort forward. When I know a player can do better and I have the proper relationship and they show at an event, I will rib them for it, but only when I know the person. Painting should count in event but only the most rudimentary scores such as; did you paint them, or are they based. I am sorry if a couple people have pissed you off but get over it.

You do not know Chris Copeland so show him respect and assume he is the person he stated in the beginning.

Have a Great Week.


Robert

Arguing rules is part of the hobby but I can never seem to get anyone into my organized rules debates. Maybe I'll add rules debating as a soft score!

[Squirrel_Fish]

There is no difference, except that I'm starting to see more of the former now than the latter.

Yes, but if your goal is to avoid seeing any of these people, why bother going to tournaments where you have no control over who you play? Just play with people you know.

[Melissia]

That's what I do most of the time.

[Cossack]

Where did this concept of "three color" paint jobs start? Paint a figure until it's finished. There's no 'standard'....just do it. Everybody know when you put work into the army.

And it's never about quality - the first miniatures I ever painted look like crap to me now - but it's how I started and when I see somebody who painted their first army I am VERY impressed.

The problem with unpainted armies isn't the new guys - it's the players who go on for years never painting their figures.

[DarkLink]

OK... perhaps not coming in implying that folks on the opposite side of an issue from you are elitist prick douche-bags would be a better way to go.

I doubt her intention was to imply in any form that you, or simply anyone who was on the opposite side, was an elitist. That's a carryover from another thread, and the type of individual(s) who would warrant that attitude are not in the least undeserving. Rest assured that you are likely not one of those individuals (though Melissia is more than willing to butt heads regardless), and know that she simply has a tenancy to carry over her focus on general issues that she has encountered. Specifically, in the various arguments over painting vs gaming and the like, we've run into some few individuals whom the term elitist quite well applied. Thus, her original comment here.


I dunno I never much had a problem with Melissia.


No, and once you really understand her attitude, no one really would. I have a few friends who kinda have a similar thing, where if you don't know them you might think they're bad people, but once you get to know them you realize they're, well, not.



The problem with unpainted armies isn't the new guys - it's the players who go on for years never painting their figures.

Elitists are a much, much bigger problem than chronic non-painters ever will be.

[Cossack]

You're wrong about that Darklink...when standards are raised by requiring painted figures, the gaming environment actually IMPROVES. More people participate in gaming leagues, sales improve, shop owners like the gamers a lot more....I've been there guy, seen it and proved it.

[Warptiger]

Just because you're good at painting doesn't mean you're an elitist douchebag. Shrug. Since I've got a bunch of best painted and player's choice awards on the wall, I guess that makes me an elitist douche bag. Shrug again.

I've never mocked anyone's army for being unpainted. That's rude, dude.

My only problem with unpainted or primered armies is that it's hard to see details on the miniatures. Sometimes the miniatures are even missing entire weapon arms or bits (hard to even notice something is missing if everything is primered black). Get's annoying when you charge a squad only to be told later that 4 of the guys have powerfists, but they've snapped off.

On several occasions, I've actually helped people paint their armies... complete strangers, friends of friends, etc. Some people get offended by the offer, but some actually welcome the help. At one store I went too, we all sat down (about half a dozen people) and brute force painted a guy's army over a couple of days. Certain people did base colors, others did shading and hilights, and I went through and painted dozens of little details (eye, trim, etc).

In the process, we basically taught they guy how to paint, plus all the random people who wandered through. Turns out the guy hated painting because he was doing a lot of things the ultra hard way... like trying to hammer in a nail using a screwdriver... sure, you hit the nail enough times with a screwdriver, you'll eventually drive it in, but a hammer would do the same job in 2 whacks (1 if you're a ultrastud). I know a whole bunch of painting styles, and usually you can find the one that works best for someone (ie, requires the least effort, fastest speed, or doesn't require a steady hand at all).

[klinesmith]

You're wrong about that Darklink...when standards are raised by requiring painted figures, the gaming environment actually IMPROVES. More people participate in gaming leagues, sales improve, shop owners like the gamers a lot more....I've been there guy, seen it and proved it.

Edit: Forget the post. You are now simply on ignore. It will make my life here far better.

[Melissia]

Just because you're good at painting doesn't mean you're an elitist douchebag.

Right. One is an elitist douchebag because they're an elitist douchebag. Being a good painter has no effect on this, but being a good PERSON does...

[Chris Copeland]

So, before this thread was overrun by words like elitist, douche-bag, and prick it was about wanting to participate in a tourney where only painted armies were allowed...

So here is my call to Dragon's Lair, BattleForge Games, Alien Worlds, Alamo Gamers and any and all other venues where a 40K tourney might happen in the near future along the the Interstate 35 corridor: please have a tournament devoted to painted armies. Please enforce said rule. Please make sure anyone and everyone playing adheres to that rule. I don't care if I win or lose... just participating in that event would be nirvana! I won't judge or mock anyone who doesn't have a painted army. I won't ever have any opinion about how this hobby should be. I won't ever suggest that painting-snobs are superior to tactics-snobs... I won't do anything that offends anyone else's sensibilities... I just want to play in a tourney where ever single army is painted. That would be awesome! Cheers! Chris


PS: PlasticAddict, you realize that it would be very hard for you to get into such a tournament? I'm just sayin'...

PPS: Cossack, you must realize that telling people what they MUST do only infuriates them... tone it done, sir... you''l catch more flies with honey than vinegar (as my mother always said)... or not... do as you will... peace

[Cossack]

It's difficult to say "MUST"....obviously players can do what they want. I just want to push back and say that the figures should be painted and to suggest that it's perfectly fine to never paint them is not correct.

Another angle is that this idea INFECTS the rest of the hobby....by lowering standards everywhere. One guy does it at the shop, nobody says anything, somebody else does it, nobody says anything (don't want be called a douche - it hurts so much), then eventually I'm showing up for a six player Flames of War game and somebody drops an unpainted German machinegun platoon on the table. So much for me taking photos for my battle report.

So yeah, it affects me. And I will continue to speak out.

[Aldramelech]

It's difficult to say "MUST"....obviously players can do what they want. I just want to push back and say that the figures should be painted and to suggest that it's perfectly fine to never paint them is not correct.

Another angle is that this idea INFECTS the rest of the hobby....by lowering standards everywhere. One guy does it at the shop, nobody says anything, somebody else does it, nobody says anything (don't want be called a douche - it hurts so much), then eventually I'm showing up for a six player Flames of War game and somebody drops an unpainted German machinegun platoon on the table. So much for me taking photos for my battle report.

So yeah, it affects me. And I will continue to speak out.

Happily this seems to be a GW hobby thing, and has not infected historical wargaming yet.

I would say that Ive met my share of unpleasant people in this hobby, this is why I dont go to tournaments anymore. It had nothing to do with their armies being painted or not painted. It had everything to do with them being overcompetitive, rude, imature and in some cases very smelly people.

[Cossack]

I hope that's true in your area...but the FoW game was WWII...definitely historically based. And we just got a group going with 15mm Napoleonics (Lasalle) and so far no unpainted figures.

[Aldramelech]

I hope that's true in your area...but the FoW game was WWII...definitely historically based. And we just got a group going with 15mm Napoleonics (Lasalle) and so far no unpainted figures.

I dont regard FOW as a serious historical wargame:D

[erwos]

The best part about this thread is that it totally exposes the anti-painting crowd. Friendly tournament that only allows painted miniatures? Clearly, the entrants must be a bunch of painting snobs who any decent person would not want to associate with!

[Cossack]

I dont regard FOW as a serious historical wargame:D

Fair point.

[Cossack]

The best part about this thread is that it totally exposes the anti-painting crowd. Friendly tournament that only allows painted miniatures? Clearly, the entrants must be a bunch of painting snobs who any decent person would not want to associate with!

Becareful, you might be called a douchebag.

[HsojVvad]

The best part about this thread is that it totally exposes the anti-painting crowd. Friendly tournament that only allows painted miniatures? Clearly, the entrants must be a bunch of painting snobs who any decent person would not want to associate with!

I think you made a mistake there my friend. I don't think this is about anti paint crowd, this is about doing what you want.

Some people come into the hobby to collect. Others come into game. Others come into paint. Then you have others who like to do all of them.

What this comes down to, is someone telling you how to do something. If somone dosn't like painting they don't want to be told that they have to paint or shouldn't be in the hobby?

It would be like telling someone they shouldn't go to a Fast Food resteraunt and should be at home making home cooked meals. It would be calling someone who is fat, that they are lazy, and eat too much.

It is like saying someone who wears glasses is a geek or nerd because they wear glasses. (Ok, I guess I am too old now, because this is what happens years ago. Not shure if it's still done in this day and age)

It's like society saying you are a geek nerd and or looser for playing with plastic toy soliders. Is anyone here ok with being called a looser just because they play with plastic toy soldiers? So for you not to be a looser would mean you have to quit your hobby then. Is that ok?

So this is really not about painted minis or not painted minis. This is about people telling other people how they have to do what they like.

[Melissia]

The best part about this thread is that it totally exposes the anti-painting crowd.

What crowd?

[Aldramelech]

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/kc_4.jpg

[klinesmith]

The best part about this thread is that it totally exposes the anti-painting crowd. Friendly tournament that only allows painted miniatures? Clearly, the entrants must be a bunch of painting snobs who any decent person would not want to associate with!

Yours is an argument that is classic logical fallacy. You assume the following is the belief of a non-painter:

If you paint your army then you are a douchebag.

This is non sequitur.

Overall, however, most of the pro-painting crowd are falling into a very massive straw man argument. Allow me:

Non-painter: Unpainted armies are good.

Pro-Painter: If you don't paint your army you hurt the hobby by cultivating an unprofessional and unappealing environment and display a severe lack of respect for other players thus ending in a degradation of the hobby.

The problem: The non-painter crowd did not say only not painting was good. Thus this is a straw man argument.

[Cossack]

That pretty much nails it.

[erwos]

Yours is an argument that is classic logical fallacy. You assume the following is the belief of a non-painter:

If you paint your army then you are a douchebag.
Nope, that is most certainly not what I believe and when did I ever write that? I simply found it interesting to start reading from the top of the thread to see who the first people were to start protesting _against the concept_ of a painted-only tournament.

It was informative. Seriously, there was some utterly unprovoked bile about "absurdity" and "elitists". Maybe you ought to apply your magical logical fallacy to THAT issue.

I paint, and don't field unpainted (or proxy) models. I don't care if my opponents paint or not, although I prefer if they do. I do get annoyed when I'm told that painting is unimportant and peripheral by total non-painters, and that it should not be a factor in anything. Thanks for denigrating the hours of work I put into making my army look nice!

And, just to keep on topic, I whole-heartedly agree that all-painted tournaments are a good idea, but I don't think they should be the only type out there... different strokes for different folks!

[Rusty Nail]

I'm going to wade in here with several points - some more relevant than others, and I'm not trying to come down on one side or another just putting some more info into the pot.

1. The last 3 tournaments I've played in, (all 2 day and either 40k orWHFB), didn't require painted armies but were awarded in effect an extra wins worth of points if you had your army done to 3 colours and based - they didn't have to be good to get the points, (I did and I hate painting), you were also awarded the same number of points for voting on best painted army, (for a seperate prize that didn't affect the outcome of the tornament). This in effect means that if you are ultra competitive then you either didn't go to the tournament unless you thought you could beat everybody or you got the brushes out if you weren't in the habit of doing so.

2. In all these tournaments nobody was derogatory about the quality of my painting.

3. In my FLGS most people have painted armies, or at least works in progress, however the worst person to play against hasn't painted a single mini. One of the best people to play against hasn't painted a singel mini either, although he will get people to paint for him when he can afford it.

4 . In a couple of local clubs I go to, one has almost everybody with a painted army, and the other has a large proportion of bare plastic, if you turn up at the first with plastic nobody cares and you can get a game without a problem at all - although peer pressure does seem to have the effect of making people start painting. In the second if you turn up with a well painted army people gather round to have a good look and compliment you on it and are happy to give you a game as welll - this occasionally sets someone off on a painting frenzy but only very occasionally.

Is there a point to any of the above not really apart from I think I must be lucky in where I game from reading some of the stuff on here.

On a purely personal point of view - I'll play anybody at least once and I don't care if there army is painted or not and the attitude I bring to the table will be as friendly as I can make it, but there will also be a do unto others as you are done to part of me - i.e if you're a good laugh and a fun guy/gal to play then hopefully you'll have a great game and so will I. If you are a rules lawyering **** then you will get two games for the price of one off me - the first and last - and I will do everything I can in my power to ground you into the dirt.

There was going to be more to this but my senility appears to have kicked in, no doubt if I remember I'll be back

Tom

Oh just remembered another thing I've been tallying up the people who I don't think I want to play on this post based on what I percive their attitute might be*, and it's fairly even between the must paint douchbags and the no need to paint douchbags. Now that I've probably offended everybody I'll go and get fed.

* Yes I know this is the internet and not real life but it kept me occupied whilst waiting for the wife servitor to make my dinner.

[Cossack]

Funny guy, Tom! Some chuckles out of your post..thanks for that!

I want to add...(this has nothing to do with the above posts) that I photograph my games. And I share this with friends who aren't in the hobby - and I don't even want the question "How come some of those figures aren't painted?" to even come up.

http://mysite.verizon.net/krista.smith/actionorks.htm as a sample....

[DarkLink]

The problem: The non-painter crowd did not say only not painting was good. Thus this is a straw man argument.

Right, no one's said that painting is bad, only that acting rude to those who don't paint for whatever reason is.


Nope, that is most certainly not what I believe and when did I ever write that? I simply found it interesting to start reading from the top of the thread to see who the first people were to start protesting _against the concept_ of a painted-only tournament.

It was informative. Seriously, there was some utterly unprovoked bile about "absurdity" and "elitists". Maybe you ought to apply your magical logical fallacy to THAT issue.


Painting is fine. Acting rude to someone who doesn't paint isn't.

You assumed that, because some of us pointed out that being rude to someone who doesn't paint is rude, that we all think that anyone who paints is rude. This is most certainly not the case, and it seems you've completely misread some major points here.

So, yes, you did indeed commit a fallacy, effectively putting words in our mouths that we did not say, nor intended to.

Also, all that elitist stuff really didn't have anything to do with painted only tournament. It had to do with people who are rude to people who don't paint, and was something of a carryover from another thread where this issue has come up.

[Chris Copeland]

The more I read these posts the more jealous I become of gamers in other corners of the world... especially our British brethren: it seems that far and wide, folks have the ability to find tournaments wherein painted armies are required.

I'd posit that the biggest two tourneys in the greater San Antonio area are the Alamo GT and the Alamo 40K GT... both of which explicitly state that folks are allowed to show up with bare plastic. It doesn't seem to be that way in places like Wales & Nottingham...

I wonder when the divergence happened. I wonder when the IH35 corridor between Austin and San Antonio switched over to a Privateer Press-like attitude that never seems to require painted-only events...

To be clear: I like the events that we have around here. I like the mini-tourneys, Steamroller tournaments, 'Ard Boyz, and the like that we get in these parts. I participate and have fun with them. However, I've read about and heard tales about the three colors & based-type tournaments and have to say that I think it would be SO COOL to participate in one.

I'll probably have to travel a bit further afield to find such a tourney: Houston (about 4 hours away driving) and Dallas/Ft. Worth (about 6 hours) are both bigger metro areas with large gaming communities... perhaps I'll find all-painted tournaments there...

Cheers... Chris

[Commissar Lewis]

Chris, I can see where you are coming from. Seeing a table with both armies fully painted is quite a sight. However, having a tournament with a "painted requirement" does give off an exclusive vibe, so it isn't hard for some to see that as elitist, even if everyone at said tourney is a totally nice person. Not saying that's right, just saying having requirements and things that exclude people can give off that vibe. It's the impression some people get from that kind of rule. Me, I think it's just like a country club. If you don't like the rules, go to another and don't ruin the fun of those that do like the rules.

Now I don't think people who want to play against fully painted armies are elitist; they just have a preference. Nothing wrong with that. However, there are some elitist people out there who are rude. They may be rare, but they are out there.

Now, back to sweating a few pounds off in this 90 degree heatwave.

[Cossack]

Some of us (I am not the only one) are okay with being called 'Elitist' by gamers who refuse to paint their armies. Fine. I'm elitist because I have STANDARDS. I don't eat out of the garbage either...does that make me elitist? Somebody will get upset at the comment I just made...why? Perhaps there really *IS* a little bit of guilt there about using unpainted figures?

[Chris Copeland]

Now, back to sweating a few pounds off in this 90 degree heatwave.

Commissar Lewis, what part of Michigan do you live in? My family is from Greyling... two summers ago we drove from Texas all the way up to the great north woods of Michigan... what a lovely place! We visited Traverse City (which I am given to understand has a very active gaming community)... I'd like to get in a few games in the Great White North the next time I am up there...

Cheers! Copeland


PS 90 degrees?! I live in Texas... I laugh at your 90 degrees!! :P

[Commissar Lewis]

I live in he Metro Detroit area. Specifically a neighboring county to Detroit. And yeah, I know Texas is hot; I have an uncle that lives there. But I bet Texas isn't humid.

And Cossack, I wasn't calling people with standards elitist; I was merely saying how painting standards CAN BE PERCEIVED as elitist. Standards are fine; after all most men don't really want to bed a 400lb whale. Those are events best forgotten through tequila. Personally I have qualm with people who want to play against fully-painted armies.

[erwos]

You assumed that, because some of us pointed out that being rude to someone who doesn't paint is rude, that we all think that anyone who paints is rude. This is most certainly not the case, and it seems you've completely misread some major points here.
WHERE DID I WRITE THIS? You're guilty of the very thing you're accusing me of! I _never_ stereotyped anyone, nor did I ever attempt to. I simply wanted to point out that the initial objectors to a painted-only tournament were guilty of the same arrogance that the pro-painting crowd is regularly accused of.

[TheBitzBarn]

What your little rant seems to be missing is that noone is denying this.

The argument is between a group of people who thinks painting is an all-important aspect of the hobby with no other aspects mattering, and everyone else. And then some confused people in the middle trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

And yes, if you had paid attention you'd have seen people indeed took the former position.

Also? Don't flat out tell me who to respect. You have no idea who I respect or don't respect. I do not give a cockroach's corpse what you think on that subject, and your post does not show you to be any more socially competent than I in that regard.

I am glad I do not know you I would have to say. And yes I have been paying attention and you seem like some one I would not want to know. Have a day!

[MarshalAdamar]

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

There you go again. I didn't see in the above posts where anyone was mocking someone who could not paint.

There were some comments about people not wanting to paint and pushing around their models still in the box that I found highly entertaining but no one is saying that if you don't paint well your a sub human.

[Shavnir]

Chris : Have you considered a trip up to Adepticon? Its a bit of a haul from down here but it fits your "everything must be painted" to a T.


Some of us (I am not the only one) are okay with being called 'Elitist' by gamers who refuse to paint their armies. Fine. I'm elitist because I have STANDARDS. I don't eat out of the garbage either...does that make me elitist? Somebody will get upset at the comment I just made...why? Perhaps there really *IS* a little bit of guilt there about using unpainted figures?

Its you, you're what is wrong with the hobby.

[MarshalAdamar]

I spend a fair chunk of time trawling Warseer and some of the other forums for rumours. BolS is the epitomy of civilised discourse in comparison, believe me.:rolleyes: No trolls, just some very opinionated people, which is fine.
I'm all for fully painted armies in tournaments, but I can see why Melissia thinks it will attract a nasty sort. There are an awful lot of people out there who use the quality of their paintjobs to make other players feel bad. We ban that sort from our group but you can't do that with a tournament. Unless it was invitation only.

I would agree about preferring painted armies in tournaments (and in general)

As for attracting nasty sorts, that might be true but you get obnoxious people whether their army is painted or unpainted; you just have to ostracize them on an individual basis.

I happen to like painting and from what I've been told I paint very well, but I don't belittle anyone for not being good at painting, I offer advice and tips and encouragement if they're not certain about their painting skills. I've even showed people how to speed paint with the army painter system or just a base coat, some wash and little highting.

A lot of people will paint their minis if they can find a way to do it with out taking up all their free time. And some even find they like painting and go on to paint some pretty impressive armies.

[DarkLink]

WHERE DID I WRITE THIS? You're guilty of the very thing you're accusing me of! I _never_ stereotyped anyone, nor did I ever attempt to. I simply wanted to point out that the initial objectors to a painted-only tournament were guilty of the same arrogance that the pro-painting crowd is regularly accused of.

Here's your original quote;


The best part about this thread is that it totally exposes the anti-painting crowd. Friendly tournament that only allows painted miniatures? Clearly, the entrants must be a bunch of painting snobs who any decent person would not want to associate with!

Note the underlined section.

At no point in time has anyone stated, nor implied, that painting is a bad thing. It's all about the attitude of certain painting "elitists", nothing more, nothing less.

[Chris Copeland]

At no point in time has anyone stated, nor implied, that painting is a bad thing. It's all about the attitude of certain painting "elitists", nothing more, nothing less.

Well, not exactly, DarkLink. Melissia did imply that folks on the pro-painter side of the equation were elitist douche-bags. She did it here:


I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.

She came into a very gentle thread swinging. We can parse her phrase from now until Judgement Day... to me her implication is clear. Some others agree with me that she was characterizing folks who'd attend a Painting Only Tournament as elitist douche-bags. There are others, like yourself, who don't think her words imply that...

So, I guess my basic disagreement with your post is your saying, "It's all about the attitude of certain painting "elitists", nothing more, nothing less." I'd say that at that point in the thread a certain hypocrisy came out on Melissia's part: she was casting an unfair judgement on folks who'd enjoy the hypothetical tourney I'd described... in essence, coming off as a tactics-elitist who was sneering at gamers who love painting...

After that we get to the part where I guess we just have to agree to disagree... you don't see her words implying what I say they are implying. Melissia herself went onto point out that the English language can be easy to mis-read and I agree. She says she didn't mean what I say she was implying. I can only say that I'm hard pressed to come away with any other meaning in her words...

OK... I've had my say... I'm moving on from this one....

Good gaming to all... Copeland

[Melissia]

Well, not exactly, DarkLink. Melissia did imply that folks on the pro-painter side of the equation were elitist douche-bags.

No, I did not imply that everyone on the other side of the equation were elitist douchebags. That was you putting words in my post that weren't there, plain and simple. And you should stop doing that.

Respond to the actual post, not a *******ed strawman. Logical fallacies do you no good. There is no hypocrisy here.

[Chris Copeland]

No, I did not imply that everyone on the other side of the equation were elitist douchebags. That was you putting words in my post that weren't there, plain and simple. And you should stop doing that.

Respond to the actual post, not a *******ed strawman. Logical fallacies do you no good. There is no hypocrisy here.

Again, Melissia, it's hard to see where to proceed from here so I don't see the point. To me it seems that your words carry a clear implication. You got called out on it and now you are saying to say that your words don't imply what I say they do at all.

I am not setting up a straw-man. I am responding to harsh words that carried a clear implication and saying what I think the implication was. Many will agree with me. Obviously, you will continue to vehemently disagree... so: impasse...

Good night. Cheers.

[Melissia]

Again, Melissia, it's hard to see where to proceed from here so I don't see the point. To me it seems that your words carry a clear implication. You got called out on it and now you are saying to say that your words don't imply what I say they do at all.

I am not setting up a straw-man. I am responding to harsh words that carried a clear implication and saying what I think the implication was. Many will agree with me. Obviously, you will continue to vehemently disagree... so: impasse...

Good night. Cheers.

My point is that you misinterpreted my post. I admitted my fault in not having a perfect ability to wield the English language, and then supplied the intended interpretation a dozen times over by now-- but you have refused to use it. You are being incredibly rude and pissing me off right now.

So I'm done being nice. If you refuse to read my posts for what they are WHEN I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU A THOUSAND TIMES OVER WHAT THE **** I INTENDED, then I will put you on my ignore list, as you have nothing of value to add to any discussion when you intentionally misinterpret what you read.

[scadugenga]

Some of us (I am not the only one) are okay with being called 'Elitist' by gamers who refuse to paint their armies. Fine. I'm elitist because I have STANDARDS. I don't eat out of the garbage either...does that make me elitist? Somebody will get upset at the comment I just made...why? Perhaps there really *IS* a little bit of guilt there about using unpainted figures?

I don't refuse to paint my armies, but at the same time, you do represent what's wrong with the hobby.

It's rather pathetic, really. Particularly because in your link, you post photos of all the things that so upset you about the games, but I bet, I betyou didn't have the stones to say something directly.

And you're still taking photos of minors and posting them on the internet. Tsk Tsk! That's illegal, sparky.

[Squirrel_Fish]

I avoid tournaments if only to avoid the elitest douchebags who insist that their way is the only way.

[Cossack]

That's weird, because the EDG (Elitist Douchebag Guild) avoid tournaments too.... Hah! Maybe it's safe for us to go back?

[Shavnir]

I avoid tournaments if only to avoid the elitest douchebags who insist that their way is the only way.

Bring a couple bare pewter minis and wave them around, it usually clears the room if you've got a douchebag infestation. ;)

[DarkLink]

Well, not exactly, DarkLink. Melissia did imply that folks on the pro-painter side of the equation were elitist douche-bags. She did it here:


/shrug/ I read that as saying that the elitists would flock to that even and would probably be present, not that everyone there was an elitist. Kinda like saying "I don't want to go to a bar, because I don't want to run into a drunk alcoholic". Not everyone at the bar is a drunk alcoholic, but chances aren't bad of being able to find one there.

[Uncle Nutsy]

14 pages already? holy crap. that's an insane about of replies.

but yeah, if the pro-painters want to refuse people just on the basis that their armies aren't painted.. well don't be surpised if you overhear "i'm selling all my 40k stuff and never playing this game again because of people like HIM" in the games store.

i'm sure you'd feel a little different once you realized that you've just ended up costing the store some business and the hobby a player.

[Aldramelech]

I don't refuse to paint my armies, but at the same time, you do represent what's wrong with the hobby.

I dont agree. I think he feels that standrds are declining and wants to throw on the breaks, and I think hes entitled to promote the hobby how he see's fit. I also think that after some attitude's of non painters on here and other threads became apparent and the name calling started (by the non painters) he proberbly decided that attack was the best form of defense and matched his attitude to suit.

It's rather pathetic, really. Particularly because in your link, you post photos of all the things that so upset you about the games, but I bet, I betyou didn't have the stones to say something directly.

Or maybe like the rest of humanity he tempers his opinions in public and keeps them for the internet.

And you're still taking photos of minors and posting them on the internet. Tsk Tsk! That's illegal, sparky. Maybe in your messed up country, not anywhere else

Hes just come out and told people in an honest way how he feels. At least he's not saying things and then backtracking when he realises its unpopular like some have.

[Col.Gravis]

14 pages already? holy crap. that's an insane about of replies.

but yeah, if the pro-painters want to refuse people just on the basis that their armies aren't painted.. well don't be surpised if you overhear "i'm selling all my 40k stuff and never playing this game again because of people like HIM" in the games store.

i'm sure you'd feel a little different once you realized that you've just ended up costing the store some business and the hobby a player.

No body is refusing to play people here IIRC, though admittedly it does happen, this is about a better looking tournament scene with no bare metal or plastic which does in my experiece at least raise the quality of the event. It looks better too, which tends to encourage more players into the hobby.

Further more NOBODY is talking about refusing a friendly game here, do people, sure they do, but thats not the subject of discussion, we're talking about tournaments.


Hes just come out and told people in an honest way how he feels. At least he's not saying things and then backtracking when he realises its unpopular like some have.

Agreed on all points raised in your response to scadugenga.

[scadugenga]

Or maybe like the rest of humanity he tempers his opinions in public and keeps them for the internet.

The rest of adult humanity has no problem being assertive and discussing things directly rather than being passive-aggressive and whining about it on the internet.


I also think that after some attitude's of non painters on here and other threads became apparent and the name calling started (by the non painters) he proberbly decided that attack was the best form of defense and matched his attitude to suit.

Examples, please? I mean, I've requested several times that he back up his allegations with hard data to support his arguments, and he's ignored every one to respond with random bs "*stands up and applauds Marshal Adamar*" esque comments or accusing non-painters of having half-assed lives. That's real quality right there.


Maybe in your messed up country, not anywhere else

You sure about that? Or are you just making a blanket attack on the US?


Hes just come out and told people in an honest way how he feels. At least he's not saying things and then backtracking when he realises its unpopular like some have.

And hey, at least he hasn't compared someone to a racist like, I don't know...you have. :P

[Aldramelech]

The rest of adult humanity has no problem being assertive and discussing things directly rather than being passive-aggressive and whining about it on the internet.



Examples, please? I mean, I've requested several times that he back up his allegations with hard data to support his arguments, and he's ignored every one to respond with random bs "*stands up and applauds Marshal Adamar*" esque comments or accusing non-painters of having half-assed lives. That's real quality right there.



You sure about that? Or are you just making a blanket attack on the US?



And hey, at least he hasn't compared someone to a racist like, I don't know...you have. :P

Point one. You didn't just try answer me with half a ton of psychological horse **** did you? Don't bother, I ain't interested. You might go around saying exactly whats on your mind at any given time, but most NORMAL people don't tend to.

Point two. Have you read any of Melissia's posts?

Point three. My Grandfather served in the US Navy for 30 years starting in 1938. So I'll say what I like about the good old US of A thank you very much smartass.

Point 4. Prove it. You cant. Wuss the matter did the big nasty English guy upset you? Never mind, there there.

[Cossack]

Just checkin' in on my peeps....how's that painting going?

[BuFFo]

Just checkin' in on my peeps....how's that painting going?

The reason why I like and respect you is because you have an opinion, and stick by it, but, you do so without being an 'actual' douche-prick and insult the opposing opinion like a child.

I agree with you that painted armies lead to a better hobby experience and environment over all, but at the same time treating people who don't paint their armies with your ire hypocritically reverses what you are trying to do, and you just then degrade the hobby into pompous, wolf shirt wearing neck beards.

I fully endorse tournaments that require a standard of painted, only for the fact that this is already the norm, and has been done over and over for almost two decades now. People make this sound like it is a new concept, when this kind of tournament was the ORIGINAL concept and the prevailing one still to this day.

[CitizenZero]

I wouldn't go there even with my painted army if it meant I could avoid elitist painter douchebags who mock the fact that not everyone is good at painting.This is clearly phrased in a way that makes it sound as though "elitist painter douchebags" at this tournament are unavoidable.


And you are misreading my post if you're really thinking that. Considering I've stated that phrase in the past. No, my post was an objection to joining a tournament where I would have to play with elitist pricks-- I never told anyone how to enjoy their hobby.Again, UNAVOIDABLE.


That is an incredibly logically fallacious way to argue, Chris Copeland. What I said was the following, broken down into its logical components (including the context behind the post):

1: X [elitist painter douchebags] show up at tournaments/competitions that emphasize painting.
...and...
2: I do not want to go to a tournament with X category players.

Notice what I did not say? That's right, I didn't say ALL people who show up at said tournaments are X category players. That was YOUR assumption, YOUR supposition, YOUR statement. Do not put YOUR ideas into my posts. I did not say that. YOU did. Notice the annoyed, accusatory tone of this post. I don't like it when people put words that I did not say into my posts. You have done this.
Words like "if it meant I could avoid" or "where I would have to..."


Do not make assumptions about what happens outside of this forum, as you would not know.



I'm sad that you felt you had to see me acknowledge. It's insulting that you would assume I would say that in the first palce.You know what else happens outside of these forums? Tournaments. Let's avoid that one because it includes enough "elitist painter douchebags" that I will be forced to play with them. Assumption? Fact? I suppose it depends on whether or not you agree with me.


My point is that you misinterpreted my post. I admitted my fault in not having a perfect ability to wield the English language, and then supplied the intended interpretation a dozen times over by now-- but you have refused to use it. You are being incredibly rude and pissing me off right now.

So I'm done being nice. If you refuse to read my posts for what they are WHEN I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU A THOUSAND TIMES OVER WHAT THE **** I INTENDED, then I will put you on my ignore list, as you have nothing of value to add to any discussion when you intentionally misinterpret what you read.Unfortunately, all we have to go on is what you write. If you can't convey your ideas in a clear fashion, or admit why your posts were easily misinterpreted in the first place, then there isn't much we can do.

Please don't stop being nice though, I've never known anyone to throw around the word douchebag so often. (At least TWICE) If you stopped being nice, would you still help us identify said douchebags?

[Melissia]

Some stupid crap.Read this post and shutup.
My point is that you misinterpreted my post. I admitted my fault in not having a perfect ability to wield the English language, and then supplied the intended interpretation a dozen times over by now-- but you have refused to use it. You are being incredibly rude and pissing me off right now.

[CitizenZero]

Read this post and shutup.HA! Cute.

You see, I did read that post, which is why I quoted it, and spoke directly to it in MY response. Admitted fault for not being perfect is hardly admitted fault at all is it? Is that your way of retracting/apologizing for not saying what you meant in the first place?

*By the way, I have my new signature now. Thanks for that at the very least!

[Melissia]

Well at least I provided SOME amusement.

[Cossack]

The reason why I like and respect you is because you have an opinion, and stick by it, but, you do so without being an 'actual' douche-prick and insult the opposing opinion like a child.

I agree with you that painted armies lead to a better hobby experience and environment over all, but at the same time treating people who don't paint their armies with your ire hypocritically reverses what you are trying to do, and you just then degrade the hobby into pompous, wolf shirt wearing neck beards.


Yeah, I thought about that....driving away the very people who's opinions I'm ultimately hoping to change. But there's only a few of the 'hateful' types and they are on my ignore list, so no worries!

[thelonegrif]

The problem with barring entrance to painted armies is that this can cause some players to shy away from playing. As well, having such restrictions can cause younger players who most i have seen try to emulate the old more veteran gamers. Case and point a kid came into the soldier one day and he was jumping back and forth between the tables watching The nay sayer of our humble little shop asked this kid what her played his reply was IG. He followed on to tell that he doesn't like to play in the shop cause one of the other locals was kind of a jerk to him about his army being unpainted. Now see this kid he's not older than 12 and a little quirky. He defiantly has an interest in the hobby ,but is afraid to play in the shop cause of what one of the older guys said to him.
These kids are the future of this game I know for a fact that not all of you are going to continue playing till your old and grey. I would encourage these youngsters to come in learn and play what they have and try to guide them to what will work for them. Shunning them from play simply because they have neither the means nor the funds to buy all the models or paints they want and/or need.
On the other hand you have the older guys who just don't have the time and with todays economy understandably the money or like me they spread themselves too thin with too many projects at once.
The guys that are spread too thin with multiple projects are the ones that buy the most mini's in the shortest amount of time and hence they support the creators and help to keep prices lower by keeping the demand with in an acceptable range.The slow going guy that buy a little at a time and paints it before he buys his next box or blister of minis and helping fund the creators and shops to stay open and keep producing.
As for the Elitist ********s they are the kind of people that drive off the newer players and make this seem like an elite club that only a few have the talent for. My message to them if you s*** looks so d*** good show me a golden f***en demon award, you cry about some else's lower standards, but you don't see that they don't have the time or funds to sink into a very time consuming hobby so please leave us that are unpainted or not painted alone and keep "your" standards to yourselves. Its great you have that kind of time on your hands and/or you have the means to come across that kind of money. Remember this though you will not being playing forever and someone will eventually either get fed up with your crap and decide to not play because maybe in his mind all the veteran players fall under the same stereo type. With that being said you may end up causing another veteran player to lose an opponent that he could have some to teach too.
Making people paint there armies just to get into tournaments can greatly limit the playing field to mostly elitist jerks and the few older guys that still play. Opening the door to unpainted armies also opens doors to new talent and new minds At first most new players are generally easier to beat than the veterans, but with every game they are bound to learn something. As well as dig a little deeper and learn a little more about the game to help improve their own skill and tactical prowess. Over time these will be the guys/gals that end up beating you in a game with something you don't expect at all. Another point my mentor is the best apocalypse player i know (though he no longer plays because of a f(r)iend) yet before he lost everything the majority of 25k points worth of chaos was unpainted.
Well I have said my peace.
Grif

[Denzark]

Sh*t me! I can't believe I missed this mammoth biatch fight. So far Mr A has declared teddy from cot, and picked a fight with Scudadenga - be warned - he clearly has 3 nipples and charges a million a shot. Melly is once more deep in combat, and has resulted in her usual final solution - accused someone of using a 'straw man' argument. (Don't worry my dear I know the difference betwen a troll [which I don't rate you as] and an attention ho...;))

Col Gravis and Eldargal are trying to inject some gravitas. Hossvvvjjjadd is yakkin' on as usual and all sorts of people are oozing out of the wood work.

But most worryingly, Buffo seems to be outing Mellississiia as a bloke. Because if anyone posts as an arch female (I see her as a super scarey un-repentant Baader-Meinhof type) its Melly. Buffo, check in and have your gaydar fixed.

Finally, what is amusing is that the GW standard tourney has for many years, been 3 colours and properly based! So CC could have avoided all this by changing the question to: does anybody know any tourneys where painting is compulsory?

Haha I'm retreating to the sofa with some popcorn to watch this one...

PS

What the hell is that KY botty lube doing on Cossack's avatar...?

[thelonegrif]

Haha I'm retreating to the sofa with some popcorn to watch this one...



Mind if i join you with a case of Guiness??

[Cossack]

As for the Elitist ********s they are the kind of people that drive off the newer players

You are wrong.

I know this because of my involvement in the hobby (at many levels) and tell you that the key to 'recruiting' new blood is to game with painted armies.

Because that's what the hobby is about.

And that's what gets players hooked. Otherwise, they can play Magic, Clix, or a computer game. But no....it's the painted figures that sets this hobby apart.

Oh...I failed to make it through your "Wall of Text" but got to the hateful part, so I'm sure I didn't miss anything.

[Cossack]

What the hell is that KY botty lube doing on Cossack's avatar...?

You've never had a chance to use KY, have ya?

[Denzark]

Mind if i join you with a case of Guiness??

No Sir, plenty of room here and I like a drop of the black stuff, I have a litre and a half of bushmills 10 years for afterwards...

[Denzark]

You've never needed to use KY, have ya?

Here, fixed that for you.

Never heard the saying 'No need for KY, Go in Dry!'

[Melissia]

I know this because of my involvement in the hobby (at many levels) and tell you that the key to 'recruiting' new blood is to game with painted armies.

That's funny, I can tell you from many years of experience in the hobby that the best way to get someone interested in playing 40k is to get them involved in the lore of the faction they like the most. The "key" to recruiting new players isn't through elitist douchebaggery, it's through appealing to what the new player likes, which only rarely involves painted armies. In fact, seeing a bunch of beautifully painted armies can actually be pretty daunting to a new player, and discourage them.

[scadugenga]

No Sir, plenty of room here and I like a drop of the black stuff, I have a litre and a half of bushmills 10 years for afterwards...

You, sir, are a man after my own heart. Few things better than good Guinness (from the tap, mind, not cans/bottles!) and Bushmill's aged at least 10 years.

Goes down smoothly, that. ;)

[scadugenga]

You've never had a chance to use KY, have ya?

You are disturbingly creepy.

In a bad, bad way.


The problem with barring entrance to painted armies is that this can cause some players to shy away from playing. As well, having such restrictions can cause younger players who most i have seen try to emulate the old more veteran gamers. Case and point a kid came into the soldier one day and he was jumping back and forth between the tables watching The nay sayer of our humble little shop asked this kid what her played his reply was IG.

As much as I'm on the "do what thou will" category re: painting--I'm completely okay with tournaments requiring painted mini's. Mostly because the game is not about tournaments--that's a subset of the community at large.


He followed on to tell that he doesn't like to play in the shop cause one of the other locals was kind of a jerk to him about his army being unpainted. Now see this kid he's not older than 12 and a little quirky. He defiantly has an interest in the hobby ,but is afraid to play in the shop cause of what one of the older guys said to him.

I guess that shoots Cossack's theory in the nether regions. I hope you guys stuck up for the kid. There's no reason to let asshattery continue.


Yeah, I thought about that....driving away the very people who's opinions I'm ultimately hoping to change. But there's only a few of the logical debating types and they are on my ignore list, so no worries!

There, fixed it for ya.

[Chris Copeland]

So CC could have avoided all this by changing the question to: does anybody know any tourneys where painting is compulsory?

To be fair, I did point out that there are no such events 'round these here parts. None. From the hallowed grounds of Battleforge Games in Austin (wherein reside the guys who run BoLS) to the gaming rooms of Dragon's Lair San Antonio (where I play these days since Central Command went under) to the fabulous Alamo GT run by the Alamo Gamers club... I've yet to hear of a tourney wherein three colors and basing were de rigueur... come painted or don't come at all...

One fellow did say that I should try Adepticon in Dallas this year... it fits my bill but it is 6 hours away!

Mostly my Original Post was an out-loud wish for such an event. Craggy old-timers speak in hushed, reverent tones when talking about events like this. They say things like, "Back in the Rogue Trader days we had to make tanks out of deodorant bars, walk to school in the snow, and tourneys required three colors and basing... them was the good ol' days!" Then they take their metamusal and complain about crazy kids these days with their wacky clothes and their "rock & roll"... :)

[scadugenga]

Point one. You didn't just try answer me with half a ton of psychological horse **** did you? Don't bother, I ain't interested. You might go around saying exactly whats on your mind at any given time, but most NORMAL people don't tend to.

Okay--so assertiveness--not normal. Passive-agressive behavior--normal. Got it. I'll stick with being abnormal then, thanks. :)


Point two. Have you read any of Melissia's posts?

Many of them actually. She comes off more frustrated than anything, imo. Warranted? Not really my dept. to say.

However, that's only 1 person. You specifically stated "non-painters."


Point three. My Grandfather served in the US Navy for 30 years starting in 1938. So I'll say what I like about the good old US of A thank you very much smartass.

And your grandfather's service provides exactly what entitlement to you? And what does that have anything to do with my question re: your making a statement of "your messed up country?"


Point 4. Prove it. You cant. Wuss the matter did the big nasty English guy upset you? Never mind, there there.

Easy enough:


Oh, OK, so because people have been using it for years that makes it all perfectly acceptable, glad we cleared that one up. Haven't you lot been calling black people ******s for a couple of hundred years? Guess thats OK too then.....

And actually, given your rather angry post--I imagine somehow you're the one who's undies are in a twist. Wrong side of the bed this morning?

[scadugenga]

One fellow did say that I should try Adepticon in Dallas this year... it fits my bill but it is 6 hours away!



Adepticon is in Chicago.

Well, the western 'burbs of Chicago to be exact. Just remember to bring a coat--there's occasionally still snow on the ground round Adepticon time.

Amusingly, it's on April 1st next year.

[Melissia]

Adepticon is in multiple places. It's primarily based on Canada I think, though.

Or maybe I'm thinking of some other tourney, dunno.

[Chris Copeland]

Adepticon is in Chicago.

Well, the western 'burbs of Chicago to be exact. Just remember to bring a coat--there's occasionally still snow on the ground round Adepticon time.

Amusingly, it's on April 1st next year.


Sorry... I meant Astronomi-con Dallas...

[scadugenga]

Sorry... I meant Astronomi-con Dallas...

Gotcha.

[Shavnir]

One fellow did say that I should try Adepticon in Dallas this year... it fits my bill but it is 6 hours away!


Chicago's a bit more than 6 hours away. Besides Astronomi-con allowed unpainted minis (thus spawning the "don't want to play in a tournament to play against unpainted crap" line I mentioned earlier). My question for you is this : Knowing there's someone that would dismiss all non-painted armies as "unpainted crap" (his words, not mine) would you still want to go to the tournament?

EDIT : Christ how do I keep sniping this thread.

[HsojVvad]

@ Cossack, I just noticed your Avatar. That is so funny. Thanks for the laugh, you do have a sence of humour my friend. LOL

[Cossack]

Here, fixed that for you.

Never heard the saying 'No need for KY, Go in Dry!'

I did that ONCE....

[thelonegrif]

No Sir, plenty of room here and I like a drop of the black stuff, I have a litre and a half of bushmills 10 years for afterwards...

Nice I'll make sure to bring my no name reserve I picked up in my travels to the Emerald Isle

[Cossack]

Wait a minute...you're changing the rules!

[Aldramelech]

Okay--so assertiveness--not normal. Passive-agressive behavior--normal. Got it. I'll stick with being abnormal then, thanks. :)

Look at the big brains on scadugenga! More horse ****. Are you Dr. Niles Crane? Why cant you speak English you over educated Ponce.



Many of them actually. She comes off more frustrated than anything, imo. Warranted? Not really my dept. to say.

However, that's only 1 person. You specifically stated "non-painters."

Err well theres you.......



And your grandfather's service provides exactly what entitlement to you? And what does that have anything to do with my question re: your making a statement of "your messed up country?"

My Grandfather fought for the right for people the world over to say what they like, not for people the world over to say what they like as long as it doesn't criticize the USA. Heres a thought, My Mother is a US citizen which means I'm automatically entitled to US citizenship, maybe I can move in next door to you and shout at you across the garden fence every morning "Morning Ponce".

If you don't think your country is seriously messed up, then you need to get yourself some of that professional help that you're obviously so fond of Fraser.



Easy enough:

That was an example of how it is not OK to call people names. How exactly does that constitute calling you a racist? Obviously not that bright are you? Well those better colleges are expensive I suppose.



And actually, given your rather angry post--I imagine somehow you're the one who's undies are in a twist. Wrong side of the bed this morning?

I'm not angry, I'm quite enjoying taking the piss out of you and watching your pompous righteous indignation pour out all over your bib.

[Aldramelech]

The problem with barring entrance to painted armies is that this can cause some players to shy away from playing. As well, having such restrictions can cause younger players who most i have seen try to emulate the old more veteran gamers. Case and point a kid came into the soldier one day and he was jumping back and forth between the tables watching The nay sayer of our humble little shop asked this kid what her played his reply was IG. He followed on to tell that he doesn't like to play in the shop cause one of the other locals was kind of a jerk to him about his army being unpainted. Now see this kid he's not older than 12 and a little quirky. He defiantly has an interest in the hobby ,but is afraid to play in the shop cause of what one of the older guys said to him.
These kids are the future of this game I know for a fact that not all of you are going to continue playing till your old and grey. I would encourage these youngsters to come in learn and play what they have and try to guide them to what will work for them. Shunning them from play simply because they have neither the means nor the funds to buy all the models or paints they want and/or need.
On the other hand you have the older guys who just don't have the time and with todays economy understandably the money or like me they spread themselves too thin with too many projects at once.
The guys that are spread too thin with multiple projects are the ones that buy the most mini's in the shortest amount of time and hence they support the creators and help to keep prices lower by keeping the demand with in an acceptable range.The slow going guy that buy a little at a time and paints it before he buys his next box or blister of minis and helping fund the creators and shops to stay open and keep producing.
As for the Elitist ********s they are the kind of people that drive off the newer players and make this seem like an elite club that only a few have the talent for. My message to them if you s*** looks so d*** good show me a golden f***en demon award, you cry about some else's lower standards, but you don't see that they don't have the time or funds to sink into a very time consuming hobby so please leave us that are unpainted or not painted alone and keep "your" standards to yourselves. Its great you have that kind of time on your hands and/or you have the means to come across that kind of money. Remember this though you will not being playing forever and someone will eventually either get fed up with your crap and decide to not play because maybe in his mind all the veteran players fall under the same stereo type. With that being said you may end up causing another veteran player to lose an opponent that he could have some to teach too.
Making people paint there armies just to get into tournaments can greatly limit the playing field to mostly elitist jerks and the few older guys that still play. Opening the door to unpainted armies also opens doors to new talent and new minds At first most new players are generally easier to beat than the veterans, but with every game they are bound to learn something. As well as dig a little deeper and learn a little more about the game to help improve their own skill and tactical prowess. Over time these will be the guys/gals that end up beating you in a game with something you don't expect at all. Another point my mentor is the best apocalypse player i know (though he no longer plays because of a f(r)iend) yet before he lost everything the majority of 25k points worth of chaos was unpainted.
Well I have said my peace.
Grif

I would say you've had quite enough Guiness already tonight my friend. Once again Drinking + Internet, never a good thing.

[Col.Gravis]

Making people paint there armies just to get into tournaments can greatly limit the playing field to mostly elitist jerks and the few older guys that still play.

Epic fail. You need to get out and play at a few events which require painting before you make such a damning and sweeping statement.

[Chris Copeland]

Chicago's a bit more than 6 hours away. Besides Astronomi-con allowed unpainted minis (thus spawning the "don't want to play in a tournament to play against unpainted crap" line I mentioned earlier). My question for you is this : Knowing there's someone that would dismiss all non-painted armies as "unpainted crap" (his words, not mine) would you still want to go to the tournament?

EDIT : Christ how do I keep sniping this thread.

I was just looking at http://www.astronomi-con.com and their rules indicate that it would be just my bag: painted armies only.

Now onto your question... "Knowing there's someone that would dismiss all non-painted armies as "unpainted crap" (his words, not mine) would you still want to go to the tournament?" Hmmmm... just knowing that there might be a player there with that attitude wouldn't stop me from playing, I think. There will ALWAYS be someone somewhere that holds attitudes that I just don't agree with. However, that doesn't stop me from soldiering on and trying to be the cheery, polite person I want to be...

I've never been to a tourney that had the "come painted or don't come at all" requirement clearly stated in the rules. I think it would be an amazing spectacle to see! I love to see fully painted armies clashing. So, I don't think I'd let another person's attitude deter me from enjoying myself. After all, most of the regular tourneys I play are usually filled with folks who are far more focused on the tactics (to the exclusion of painting... tactics-snobs as opposed to painting-snobs, if you will) than I am and I don't let their uber-competetiveness bring me down.

Chris

[scadugenga]

I'm not angry, I'm quite enjoying taking the piss out of you and watching your pompous righteous indignation pour out all over your bib.

Ah, personal attacks and namecalling!

How very adult of you, Aldy. Well, I guess that exhausts any rational discussion options left, eh?

[Aldramelech]

Ah, personal attacks and namecalling!

How very adult of you, Aldy. Well, I guess that exhausts any rational discussion options left, eh?

Ohhh your no fun at all.....

[Cossack]

Astronomi-con Dallas (http://mysite.verizon.net/krista.smith/Astronomicon.htm)

[Chris Copeland]

Cossak, I looked at your pics from Astronomi-con Dallas and all I can say is that I wish that I'd been there! Wow! Your orks look great (as do most of the armies you fought against)! I especially liked the grot cannon crew!

If it happens in Dallas again next year I am DEFINITELY driving there!

I wish I was going to BoLSCon which is happening in my own back yard... unfortunately, I'll be out of town...

Cheers...

[thelonegrif]

I would say you've had quite enough Guiness already tonight my friend. Once again Drinking + Internet, never a good thing.

the army will turn you into an alcoholic im just another statistic

[Shavnir]

Astronomi-con Dallas (http://mysite.verizon.net/krista.smith/Astronomicon.htm)

I just don't get why they called it a tournament, but that's just me.

[DarkLink]

I just don't get why they called it a tournament, but that's just me.

Well, they did play some games there:rolleyes:

But really, a 40k con would be a better term for events like this.

[Chris Copeland]

Well, they did play some games there:rolleyes:

But really, a 40k con would be a better term for events like this.

I'd say that it is clearly a tournament. It has a different ruleset than Steamroller or 'Ard Boyz, but it is still a tournament.

When I think of a convention I think of a big hall with lots of tables with merchandise on them, authors signing stuff, and lectures or workshops on this topic or that in conference rooms hither and yon.

[DarkLink]

Oh, yeah, there was definitely a tournament there. A tournament, by definition, is "One or more competitions held at a single venue and concentrated into a relatively short time interval", as defined by wikipedia.

The overall event, however, was much more than just a tournament. Large sections of the event were dedicated to not-tournament stuff, like painting and things like that.

Thus, convention is a more appropriate term, really.

[MVBrandt]

There are a LOT of tournaments with painted only, plenty of which are pretty competitive ...

http://novaopen.com

/whistles and walks away