Codex Legality?

[Lucidum]

So I am well aware that Warhammer 40,000 is currently in its fifth edition, and thusly all armies either have a 5th edition codex that's currently legal (Space Marines, Tyranids, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Imperial Guard), a 4th edition codex that's legal because it hasn't been updated with a new one yet (Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Eldar, Tau, and Orks) or a waaaaaay out of date 3rd (or 2nd... *coughdarkeldarcough*) edition codex desperately in need of an update (Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Dark Eldar and Necrons). This would imply that books are legal until given a current update. Does this apply to older scenario or battlezone books as well? Are the units and army lists in Codex: Eye of Terror and Codex: Armageddon still legal as they have yet to recieve an update? (and likely never will).

[Nabterayl]

As far as I know, the whole issue of "legality" is actually one of custom. Does the main rulebook ever define under what circumstances a codex or rules supplement is "legal?" I can't recall any such section (though I don't have my rulebook with me, so I could be wrong). "Legal" is shorthand for "what most players in most places would be willing to play against." By which definition ... I have no idea.

[Erasmus of Baal]

I doubt that these specialty expansions would be allowed in tournaments, but of course if your opponent at a local gaming wherever is willing to play it, go for it! I mean, heck, I've heard of people using date rules versions (only I think it was 4th edition Fantasy) and having a blast with it. It's not about competitive play, it's about having fun (for some people, competitive play is the only way to have fun with it).

For myself, I would gladly play against these, even though I would have no idea what I'm doing.

[BuFFo]

There is NO concept of legality for 40k. This is a term created purely by tournament minded gamers to satisfy common ground for 'this or that' reasons.

You have two people. If both agree, then any army list can be played from any edition.

I play with my Harlequin army list from around a decade ago once or twice a year when it suits me. My other friend uses the 3.5 edition Chaos Marine Codex.

[Culven]

This would imply that books are legal until given a current update. Does this apply to older scenario or battlezone books as well? Are the units and army lists in Codex: Eye of Terror and Codex: Armageddon still legal as they have yet to recieve an update? (and likely never will).
Actually, most players tend to think of a codex as "legal" if it is on the list of approved armies for the GW Grand Tournaments. Other than this, it tends to be more of an issue of whether the players are willing to play against the codex. For the most part, players would be expected to use the latest version of the army, so the current Chaos codex would be expected over the 3.5 versioin, the Eldar codex over the Ulthwe strike Force from Eye of Terror, the Ork codex over the Speed Freaks from Armageddon, and so on. This isn't to say that players may not be willing to play agiainst an older version, but it should be mentioned so that the players will know what is permitted by the rules being used.

P.S. The Dark Eldar codex is a third editioin codex, the "Second Edition" stamp on the cover just indicates it is the updated second version of the codex. A true second edition codex couldn't even be used to create a fifth edition compatible army.

[Lerra]

Culven is right on that one. As far as I know, the Necron codex is actually the oldest playable codex in the game right now. The DE update came after the Necron codex.

[Tynskel]

I don't know what the Dark Eldar People are complaining about! Their codex has had an update, which is more than the Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters....

:P

[BuFFo]

I don't know what the Dark Eldar People are complaining about! Their codex has had an update, which is more than the Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters....


P.S. The Dark Eldar codex is a third editioin codex, the "Second Edition" stamp on the cover just indicates it is the updated second version of the codex. A true second edition codex couldn't even be used to create a fifth edition compatible army.

DH and WH had an update by GW a few years back, which reduced the costs of their vehicles to keep them in line with the rest of the armies. You can find the updated rules, I believe in the Imperial Armor 2 update.

If Wh and DH players choose to NOT use those updated vehicle costs, then that is their choice. The updates are 'official' and are there for use. I have used the updates and so have a few DH players I have known for the past 2ish years since their update.

The dark eldar got an 'update' because the original codex didn't even have a vehicle upgrade section! The dark eldar 'update' was not an 'update', but rather an attempt to create a finished codex which was never done in the first place.

So yeah, the dark eldar codex, which came out in 1998, has never actually had a true update. The '2nd edition' codex for the de is just what the original codex was supposed to be. DE has the oldest codex in the game, going back 12 years.

[Melissia]

f those players choose to NOT use those updated vehicle costs, then that is their choice.
Tournaments quite frequently don't allow for the use of these rules.

[BuFFo]

Tournaments quite frequently don't allow for the use of these rules.

I agree... Tourneys are full of doofs.

For most players, though, the updates are perfectly fine to use.

[Melissia]

Indeed. I allow IA to for the most part extent (I don't play against fliers or superheavies, as a personal choice-- that, I like top see reserved for Apocalypse).

[BuFFo]

Indeed. I allow IA to for the most part extent (I don't play against fliers or superheavies, as a personal choice-- that, I like top see reserved for Apocalypse).

Do you use the updated vehicle costs, or do you stick with what is in your codex?

[Melissia]

I use the updated vehicle costs most of the time... the extra ~125 points it garners me helps me kit my squads out to try and ensure the army can stand up to fifth edition armies.

[HsojVvad]

Where are these "updated rules" for DH and WH? I thought IA was an ask first permission to use.

[Melissia]

It is. Most people tend to grant permission in my experience, at least for the IA FAQ which updated the Rhinos to be 35 points, free smoke and searchlights, and two can fire out of it.

[Lerra]

My local group does not allow IA because they think it makes WH/DH "more powerful than they ought to be". At one point, someone commented that 35-point rhinos and 55-point chimeras were overpowered. IA rules are put on par with homebrew rules.

A lot of people dislike IA because it changes the balance of the game, but from what I've seen, all it does it boost old codices and give people more options. A local tournament has been allowing IA for over a year, and in the last 6-8 months, none of the winners have brought IA units. The only ones who use the IA rules are people with old codices, people who like playing themed lists or people who have fun playing with a particular IA toy, even if it's overpriced.

For the Gladiator tournament at Adepticon, IA was allowed, but I believe that the lower-priced rhinos and chimeras were specifically disallowed. I don't understand the logic behind that.

It's really a shame that the non-flyer, non-apocalypse IA units aren't tournament legal everywhere. It would be a good venue for updating old codices or adding fun, playable lists like the Lost and the Damned, Elysian Drop Troops, Kroot Mercs, AdMech, Ordos Xenos, etc.

[BuFFo]

Where are these "updated rules" for DH and WH? I thought IA was an ask first permission to use.

Basically, everything is permission based in 40k.

I don't play Space Wolves anymore because I am sick and tired of playing them, frankly.

If you read the Imperial Armor books, in the foward you are told that the IA books should be used with codices regardless of the codex or if the unit appears in the book or not.

What we basically get is this; a set of rules that SHOULD be used without an opponents permission in a game where everything is opponents permission.

Does that even make sense?

Just download the free Imperial Armor 2 Update from Forge World and use the new points for your vehicles. I think this update is 4 years old actually.

If you care about legality, well, don't. Some tourneys allow FW while others don't. Some people allow FW in friendly games, while others don't. So do what YOU want to do and don't worry about what other people do :P

Goes to show you how much FW knows about the future of GW when, for the past 4 years, their units have been either included into newer Codices and/or their IA units are priced accordingly.

People don't give 'modern' FW enough credit :P

Years ago I used to be against FW, but I learned the errors of my way. Like Melissa said, if it ain't a Super Heavy or a Flyer, it is fine by me.

[the jeske]

A lot of people dislike IA because it changes the balance of the game, but from what I've seen, all it does it boost old codices and give people more option
ever played against someone who said ok to IA rules , doesnt use them himself[no book no models] against a meq[BA best for that] with lucius patern drop pods?

[Nabterayl]

ever played against someone who said ok to IA rules , doesnt use them himself[no book no models] against a meq[BA best for that] with lucius patern drop pods?
That'd be me, yeah. Lucius pods are nasty but not the end of the world. In fact, I like fighting IA-enabled drop pod armies, because they fill in some of the major deficiencies in the all-drop pod world.

[chromedog]

Just download the free Imperial Armor 2 Update from Forge World and use the new points for your vehicles. I think this update is 4 years old actually.


Nope. Just almost a year old. August last year. Mind you, BOTH vol1 and Vol2 'updates' were updated SEVERAL times before that (in the month or two from first release) due to C&P errors that crept in.

My club allows the use of older codices (nothing older than 3rd ed unless we are playing older rules) on odd weekends. Hell, we're mostly sticking to 7th ed fantasy for the time being (read: The next year or so) as there are no WHFB tourneys they go to in that time frame.

[Lerra]

ever played against someone who said ok to IA rules , doesnt use them himself[no book no models] against a meq[BA best for that] with lucius patern drop pods?

Actually, yes. I played against a list with 5 Lucius Pattern Drop Pods once, and it's powerful but easy to counter (kind of like most drop pod armies). I saw a lot of Lucius Pattern Drop Pods at Adepticon, too, but none of those players made it into the top 10. It's a pretty decent counter to Leafblower, but with all the mystics and melta, it didn't perform very well.

I haven't seen Lucius Pattern matched with the new BA codex, though.

[Melissia]

It's not as scary as people think.

But then what do I know? I run an army which often has 8+ meltaguns and three exorcists.

[BuFFo]

Nope. Just almost a year old. August last year. Mind you, BOTH vol1 and Vol2 'updates' were updated SEVERAL times before that (in the month or two from first release) due to C&P errors that crept in...

The IA 2 update has been up since at least 2008 :p

[chromedog]

Mine says otherwise.
YMMV.

Like I said, they were revised several times (vol2 was revised 3 times).

[BuFFo]

Mine says otherwise.
YMMV.

Like I said, they were revised several times (vol2 was revised 3 times).

Where are you even finding the date?

I am looking on my Imperial Armor 2 Update and cannot find a copyright anywhere on the darned thing! I am just going by memory, which, can be a shoddy thing.

[david5th]

Where are you even finding the date?

I am looking on my Imperial Armor 2 Update and cannot find a copyright anywhere on the darned thing! I am just going by memory, which, can be a shoddy thing.

if it's IA Apocalyspe 2 it says on page 2

" First published in Great Britain in 2009 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS.

[the jeske]

Actually, yes. I played against a list with 5 Lucius Pattern Drop Pods once, and it's powerful but easy to counter (kind of like most drop pod armies). I saw a lot of Lucius Pattern Drop Pods at Adepticon, too, but none of those players made it into the top 10. It's a pretty decent counter to Leafblower, but with all the mystics and melta, it didn't perform very well.
I always forget about how US tournaments are different point played. Have you played against a Lucius drop dread army that went first in euroland at 1500 pts played ? It has no hard counter other then mystics and for armies that dont have them , it is 50% dead army on turn 1 if they get turn one . you can steam roll a tournament just because you get lucky on 3 starting rolls.
Yes when you play 2k or 2.5k it is differnt because the number of dreads/pods is too small to destroy enough of the opposing army , but not everyone plays at those points.



I haven't seen Lucius Pattern matched with the new BA codex, though.
sternguard 10 man with meltas that combat squads to pop transports . one 10 man one 5 man . 2x5minmal naked scout units [your going for an alfa strike build] . dreads or DC dreads[if you got with grim and DC in troops to spam them] in lucius pods. . first turn land open three transports [considering the shot from dreads and the 9 combis from sternguard]. charge with blood claws , even if you dont wipe out 10 man squads they are dead next turn[so you cant shot them and you have to do something to the sternguard] .

[DarkLink]

There is NO concept of legality for 40k. This is a term created purely by tournament minded gamers to satisfy common ground for 'this or that' reasons.

Well, I'd say it's a term created by people who are too lazy to want to make up their own houserules, and just want a third party to tell them what to do. They are very common.

At least tournament and other competitive players have the excuse of wanting solid, well defined rules that they don't have to patch up themselves for the purposes of their competition.

[BuFFo]

At least tournament and other competitive players have the excuse of wanting solid, well defined rules that they don't have to patch up themselves for the purposes of their competition.

I agree! They should get out of any GW related table top game then, since this will never happen as these games will never be tournament based.

[Melissia]

... which is why they create their own FAQs and precedents, therefor slowly making the game into a tournament-level game.


(duh)

[chromedog]

if it's IA Apocalyspe 2 it says on page 2

" First published in Great Britain in 2009 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS.

The pdfs have it embedded in the file. Under document properties. Mine says 'last modified 05/09/2009 2:20:48PM.'. Which is the date and time of the 'publishing' of it to pdf.