Eldar Night Spinner's Doomweaver vs. Necrons--WBB Questions

[EldarBlue]

I encountered the following rule questions during a recent game playing the new Night Spinner with Doomweaver against a Necron opponent.

In the game (a standard mission), the Necron player went first.

On my second turn, I "laid down" 3 of his squad of 10 Immortals with the direct effects of hits from the Doomweaver. So, the unit is now under the effect of the monofilament web for its next movement. As he begins his 3rd turn, he makes his WBB rolls for the affected models in that unit. 1 is successful and is brought back to life. Two fail their WBB rolls. He announces that he will be "teleporting" that unit through the Monolith, so they will be entitled to their re-roll of their failed WBB roll. Of course, since the unit is subject to the effects from the Doomweaver, the discussion ensues:

1. Does the act of "phasing out" and "reemerging" from the Monolith portal count as "movement" for the purposes of the requirement to take a dangerous terrain test from the Doomweaver web? In the end, we agreed that it does and would equally apply to Necrons moved via the "Veil of Darkness" or any other models who may have a similar ability to move through teleporting (e.g. Eldar Warp Spiders) or with the ability to leave the board and be placed in reserve mid-game (e.g. Eldar Swooping Hawks with Skyleap).

2. Based upon an affirmative answer to question 1, do the 2 models who failed their start-of-turn WBB roll and are still "laid down" have to be included in the dangerous terrain test? In the end, we did NOT include them. Only the "standing" models in the unit took the test. 1 failed, leaving unaffected Immortals at the start of the teleportation through the Monolith. We agreed that the Immortal failing the dangerous terrain test would be "laid down" at the site of the unit's starting location and would not received a WBB roll until the next turn for the Necron player. (In retrospect, I can't remember the exact logic for that decision.)

3. Upon disembarking from the Monolith, the WBB re-rolls brought 1 of the 2 models who had previously failed their start-of-turn WBB rolls back to life. So, a total of eight Immortals emerged from the Monolith in the end.


I would welcome the thoughts of more experienced players on how to apply the rules and the specifications of the new Doomweaver in this situation.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Herald of Nurgle]

I call shenanigans.

[Culven]

I don't think that Teleporting would count as Movement, since they are not following any of the rules for Movement (maximum distance, Difficult Terrain and so on).

[Drew da Destroya]

I don't think the Necron who failed the dangerous terrain test is allowed a WBB next turn, but I may be wrong. Don't attacks that ignore armor prevent WBB? Or is that just in CC?

Otherwise... I'd say your rulings make sense. Teleporting is a kind of movement, especially if you consider they have to move in order to disembark through that Monolith portal thing.

[JamesP]

From my perspective as a Necron player...

For question one, I would say that teleporting does count as movement for the purposes of triggering a dangerous terrain test for the Doomweaver web.

There is no exemption listed in the rules for the Doomweaver regarding skimmers, jump infantry, jet bikes or more unusual forms of movement such as a Swooping Hawk Sky Leap or the various forms of Necron teleportation, so I think you guys had it right.

Question two: I'd say that the lying down models would not be affected by the dangerous terrain test.

But if the dangerous terrain test killed all nearby Immortals (and there was no nearby Tomb Spyder and another unit of Immortals on the battlefield), then the lying down Immortals would be removed as they would be no longer eligible for a WBB roll. So they could be indirectly affected but your opponent would have had to fail a lot of dangerous terrain rolls.

Generally models laid down because of WBB can't be affected by anything unless something happens to make the lying down models no longer eligible for WBB. They're dead - sort of - and can't be killed again. But if something happens to remove the criteria that allow them to make a WBB roll, normally by killing all nearby Necrons of the same type, the lying down models are removed.

I hope that makes sense!

[Divergent Reality]

Teleporting through the Monolith's portal is made at any time during the movement phase. If the Monolith and unit did not move before the teleportation the unit can still move, shoot and assault as normal after exiting the portal. The unit does not need to move after the teleport. The Monolith's portal is outside the normal movement convention. I would give you the Veil of Darkness causing the dangerous terrain test.

I figure that the entire unit filament coating and all is pulled through the portal. Much in the same way that flayed ones pulled through the portal keep their fleshy accouterments.

Once the unit exits the portal, if they choose to move again they will take the effects of the Doomweaver.

The Necrons will be allowed a We'll be Back roll the weapon. Doomweaver's monofilament whatnots are neither double the model's toughness nor a close combat attack that ignores their armor saves.

[EldarBlue]

Thanks to all for your thoughts. I appreciate any others who have other ideas.

[mthoward91]

I encountered the following rule questions during a recent game playing the new Night Spinner with Doomweaver against a Necron opponent.

In the game (a standard mission), the Necron player went first.

On my second turn, I "laid down" 3 of his squad of 10 Immortals with the direct effects of hits from the Doomweaver. So, the unit is now under the effect of the monofilament web for its next movement. As he begins his 3rd turn, he makes his WBB rolls for the affected models in that unit. 1 is successful and is brought back to life. Two fail their WBB rolls. He announces that he will be "teleporting" that unit through the Monolith, so they will be entitled to their re-roll of their failed WBB roll. Of course, since the unit is subject to the effects from the Doomweaver, the discussion ensues:

1. Does the act of "phasing out" and "reemerging" from the Monolith portal count as "movement" for the purposes of the requirement to take a dangerous terrain test from the Doomweaver web? In the end, we agreed that it does and would equally apply to Necrons moved via the "Veil of Darkness" or any other models who may have a similar ability to move through teleporting (e.g. Eldar Warp Spiders) or with the ability to leave the board and be placed in reserve mid-game (e.g. Eldar Swooping Hawks with Skyleap).

2. Based upon an affirmative answer to question 1, do the 2 models who failed their start-of-turn WBB roll and are still "laid down" have to be included in the dangerous terrain test? In the end, we did NOT include them. Only the "standing" models in the unit took the test. 1 failed, leaving unaffected Immortals at the start of the teleportation through the Monolith. We agreed that the Immortal failing the dangerous terrain test would be "laid down" at the site of the unit's starting location and would not received a WBB roll until the next turn for the Necron player. (In retrospect, I can't remember the exact logic for that decision.)

3. Upon disembarking from the Monolith, the WBB re-rolls brought 1 of the 2 models who had previously failed their start-of-turn WBB rolls back to life. So, a total of eight Immortals emerged from the Monolith in the end.


I would welcome the thoughts of more experienced players on how to apply the rules and the specifications of the new Doomweaver in this situation.

Thanks in advance for any help.

I was EldarBlue's opponent in this game. The only thing he left out of discription is the fact that attached to this unit of Immortals was a Destroyer Lord with a Res Orb. That is why in question 2 I got a WBB roll for the failed dangerous terrain test. If the unit didn't have the access to the Res Orb, I agree that he would have died to the failed dangerous terrain test and would have been removed from the playing field.

Other than that, the discription of the events are exactly as he described. So, thanks to everyone who's responded. The Doomweaver is a new and interesting weapon for the Eldar. It does a great job of slowing down any assaults, and I think would be very effective against really swarmy, ie, Nid, Orc, IG. It's also the first pie plate for Eldar, so that's something that they have been sorely missing.

[Nabterayl]

I agree with Divergent Reality's position as well.

[MaxKool]

Sory to necro, It showed up on my list as new for some reason..

U get WBB from failed dangerous terrain tests as the test dosnt fall under EITHER of the 2 things that negate WBB.

Double Toughness shooting and CC attacks that ignore armor.
A Dangerous terrain test is NEITHER of these so a WBB roll is allowed.

[Tynskel]

I agree with Divergent Reality's position as well.

If you use the portal, you count as disembarking--p.21 Necrons. That is a type of movement. If you are going to state that they 'taking the filiment with them', then you would be making the roll right as they emerge from the portal.

[dragoon161523]

Teleporting through the Monolith's portal is made at any time during the movement phase. If the Monolith and unit did not move before the teleportation the unit can still move, shoot and assault as normal after exiting the portal. The unit does not need to move after the teleport. The Monolith's portal is outside the normal movement convention. I would give you the Veil of Darkness causing the dangerous terrain test.

I figure that the entire unit filament coating and all is pulled through the portal. Much in the same way that flayed ones pulled through the portal keep their fleshy accouterments.

Once the unit exits the portal, if they choose to move again they will take the effects of the Doomweaver.

The Necrons will be allowed a We'll be Back roll the weapon. Doomweaver's monofilament whatnots are neither double the model's toughness nor a close combat attack that ignores their armor saves.

You know I'm not sure how the phase out would effect the web. By the rules of the monolith the models phase out, meaning nothing comes with them but them.

However to keep the game friendly I would suggest let them use the portal but if they move afterwards they are subject to the web. As theirs no FAQ, trying to catch them in the web is the same as a dark eldar player trying to gain extra victory points for making them slaves.....they can't.

Necrons have WBB not Feel no pain, so only close combat weapons that ignore saves or attacks at double their toughness negate their WBB rolls, the doomweaver satisfies neither of these so they get their rolls.

[mulkers]

I was EldarBlue's opponent in this game. The only thing he left out of discription is the fact that attached to this unit of Immortals was a Destroyer Lord with a Res Orb. That is why in question 2 I got a WBB roll for the failed dangerous terrain test. If the unit didn't have the access to the Res Orb, I agree that he would have died to the failed dangerous terrain test and would have been removed from the playing field.

Other than that, the discription of the events are exactly as he described. So, thanks to everyone who's responded. The Doomweaver is a new and interesting weapon for the Eldar. It does a great job of slowing down any assaults, and I think would be very effective against really swarmy, ie, Nid, Orc, IG. It's also the first pie plate for Eldar, so that's something that they have been sorely missing.

Models that fail a dangerous terrain test fo not get WBB, same as sweeping advance, as the WBB is not being taken against a wound, the model is being removed from the table.

One of a very few specific circumstances where even with a res orb, the model cannot make a WBB roll

[Archon Charybdis]

Models that fail a dangerous terrain test fo not get WBB, same as sweeping advance, as the WBB is not being taken against a wound, the model is being removed from the table.

I'm AFB so you'll need to look up the page yourself, but Dangerous Terrain tests do not remove the model from the table. They very specifically inflict a wound with no armor or cover saves allowed, which means you can even take invulnerable saves. It actually presents some very interesting imagery like Terminators using their Storm Shield to surf across a lava flow.

[mulkers]

I'm AFB so you'll need to look up the page yourself, but Dangerous Terrain tests do not remove the model from the table. They very specifically inflict a wound with no armor or cover saves allowed, which means you can even take invulnerable saves. It actually presents some very interesting imagery like Terminators using their Storm Shield to surf across a lava flow.

Here are the quotes;

pg 14 of BRB : Dangerous Terrain, "On the roll of a 1, the model suffers a wound, with no armour or cover save allowed."

This would support your claim, however, the consensus between most gaming groups is that, like SA, failed dangerous terrain tests do not allow a WBB, which may very well be incorrect.

Thankyou

[chromedog]

Well, WBB IS denied by wounds that do not allow ARMOUR saves - and DT tests do deny them.

I can totally see terminators surfing a lava flow on a Storm shield though. Cowabunga!

[Sam]

Well, WBB IS denied by wounds that do not allow ARMOUR saves - and DT tests do deny them.

I can totally see terminators surfing a lava flow on a Storm shield though. Cowabunga!

WBB is ignored by wounds that do not allow armour saves if and only if said wounds were caused by close combat attacks.

"A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save or any weapon whose Strength is twice the Toughness of the Necron concerned." Codex: Necrons, p. 13