GW Tournament - a Mail Order Troll's perspective...

[Denzark]

Hey all

I thought you might like to know the following - I have decided it is newsworthy, particularly because I feel I have gained a small insight to the corporation...

Anyway, you may be aware that the format of the GW GT - Throne of Skulls - has changed from a straight up, wins, rounds to final (and wild card for painting) to the following, ably described by Mr Miteyheroes in an earlier post in the discussions section:

Basically, you play 5 games. Each win gives you 3 points, draw gives you 1, loss gives you 0.
At the end of the whole tournament you pick one army that was your favourite to play against (combining painting & sportsmanship & so on), and give that army a Favourite Army vote. You get 1 point if you get 1 Favourite Army vote, 3 points if you get 2 Favourite Army votes and 5 points if you get 3+ Favourite Army votes.

At the end of (say) the 40k Throne of Skulls they give a prize to the best SM player, the best BA player, etc etc etc. Then the player that has beated their army's average score by the most wins the overall prize. So the overall winner is NOT the player that gets the most points, but the player that gets the most points whilst playing with the codex that is weakest (or that only n00bs play)?



So, today, I phoned MO to purchase a ticket. They haven't actually been released yet, but i took the liberty of asking the troll why there was a format change. The answer, which he caveated as his opinion, was that the previous format invited WAAC, cheese, spam, and internet lists. He then said that this was felt to be disadvantageous to people who just wanted to play games and not worry about deathstar type lists.

He quoted the possibility of a 16 y.o who may be new to the hobby, saving his hard earned £55 to enter, getting his starter army marmalised by a beard with a hardcore list. He proceeded to say that 'this wasn't what GW was about' and that the new format allowed you to turn up and play with your favourite army, and have a chance of winning by tactics and not just list selection.

I then said 'OK, but surely the battlefields events are for the fluffy turn up gamers, and the GT does what it says on the tin - ie is for competitive players.' He then proceeded to say there were plenty of tournaments out there with money prize support for the competitive players to get their teeth into, but GW preferrred their version to rerpresent their philosophy - its a hobby not a competitive cut throat event. He also said the events would be increased to up to 4 a year (depending on how this goes - this is one reason why I have included this as news.) and they would be self contained - no coming back afterwards for a final round.

Interestingly the 'favourite army' votes can cover all apsects of soft score - painting, fluff, theme, sportsmanship.

Hope this is of interest to someone.

[Melissia]

Pardon me, but this isn't a use of "troll" I recognize... mind defining how you're using it? Because the way I know "troll" makes that sentence come to a rather radically different meaning than the context seems to provide...

[Denzark]

Certainly madam. Historically, GW in UK white dwarf, used to refer to the employees who ran the Mail Order, as 'The Mail Order Trolls'.

A euphimism possibly in less usage than 'Redshirts' but not meant as an insult.

[Melissia]

Mn, redshirt would probably be better. Troll is a very negative term, both in past and present, except in a few very specialized dialects....

[HsojVvad]

At first I thought the new format was horrible. Now I hear an explanation for it, I am starting to like it. I hate the win at all costs mentality alot of people put into thier army.

I really like this explanation. I think it's for the best. There are already many tournements for "cut throats" or what ever you want to call it. It's good for newbie virgins to be playing a tourney and not worry about win at all costs or what not. Will it work? Who knows, I guess this Tourney will see what happens.

[Melissia]

So basically we should expect Necrons to win overall?

[CitizenZero]

Mn, redshirt would probably be better. Troll is a very negative term, both in past and present, except in a few very specialized dialects....The term "Mail Order Troll" has been around for a long long time in GW. I would say that in the very specialized dialect of "things Games Workshop" it gets a pass. Plus, a redshirt is somebody who works in a retail location...totally different.

[Aldramelech]

The term "Mail Order Troll" has been around for a long long time in GW. I would say that in the very specialized dialect of "things Games Workshop" it gets a pass. Plus, a redshirt is somebody who works in a retail location...totally different.

Agreed. As far as Im aware they are still called this. This predates common useage of the internet and the meaning of it now.

You cant describe them as red shirts as they are not red shirts.

Any GW fan over a certain age in this country will always use this.

[Gotthammer]

Mn, redshirt would probably be better. Troll is a very negative term, both in past and present, except in a few very specialized dialects....

Well it basically was just a piss-take on the mail order crew being a bunch of eedjits.
I always liked the crazy cartoons they had in the back pages of the old WD of the trolls (stone trolls to be precise) struggling with the phones and packages, shame they got rid of them for more 'serious' art.


Funnily enough Conflict here in Aus was originally developed for newer players with smaller armies to have a place to game, but gradually all the hardcore players started getting into it so they're looking for something to replace that so new players aren't being stomped on all the time.
I wish we had Games Days here.

[HsojVvad]

Wow Melissia is wrong for once. So it seems troll was used correctly. ;)

[Melissia]

Wow Melissia is wrong for once. So it seems troll was used correctly. ;)

Don't be a douche, I asked what exactly he meant by the term and he obliged. That's not "wrong".

[miteyheroes]

I remember phoning GW Mail Order about a decade ago, and all the lines were busy. There was a recorded message that said "Sorry but we's busy at da moment. A bunch ov squigz has escaped an all da trolls are chasin dem", followed by lots of growling and screaming. GW was a very different company...

But yes, this new tournament system is fascinating. I can see why the serious players are annoyed, especially as before the £55 covered the costs of the heat AND the final if you qualified, but I do quite like it.

As I said in the other thread, the big challenge is finding an army that will be rubbish in the hands of many/most players, but that you can wield well. I'm still saying Space Marines are the best choice (they've got good players and can be a strong list but also they're the army with the most n00bs).

[Melissia]

Grey Knights and Necrons is what I'd say. Both of them can still win games, you just have to play them right and not go for thematic armies...

[lobster-overlord]

Troll Boss Bob's Bargain Basement was a great thing of the past. Troll Boss Bob was the manager of the US Mail order team in Baltimore in the mid/late 90's. THey used to take all the damaged/returned product and sell it at a discount. The old purple boxes of stealers for $2.99, Warriors from a pallet that got crushed coming across the pond for $5 a box, Old One Eyes on the same pallet $5. Ended up with a 4,000 poitn army for $50.

I miss the trolls...

[BuFFo]

Pardon me, but this isn't a use of "troll" I recognize... mind defining how you're using it? Because the way I know "troll" makes that sentence come to a rather radically different meaning than the context seems to provide...

In our Hobby, "troll" is actually a good thing. The meaning has been lost since the prevalence of the net in 40k a decade ago.


People that worked for the mail order section of GW back then were called "trolls". Mail Order Trolls.

Troll in 40k = Good

Troll in the intertubes = Bad

It is a badge of honor in our Hobby.

[hungryghosts]

The Mail Order Troll is one of the few links back to GW's far more humorous past, when they released games like "Oi! Dat's Me Leg!" and "Trollz in da Pantry". It has been used consistently for decades without much confusion, especially to those who used to receive GW's Troll Magazine.

I think that if we can manage to handle the difference between Dwarf Beardy and Power-Gamer Beardy, we can handle the concept of a positive connotation for Troll. Hell, we even managed to figure out that Beardy=Cheesy with a whole ocean in the way.

[Melissia]

I asked what he meant, tha'ts all. Friggin' overreacting douchebags.

[synack]

I asked what he meant, tha'ts all. Friggin' overreacting douchebags.

Go sit under the bridge about it

[CitizenZero]

I asked what he meant, tha'ts all. Friggin' overreacting douchebags.

No...in fact that isn't "all" because you asked, then responded with this:


Mn, redshirt would probably be better. Troll is a very negative term, both in past and present, except in a few very specialized dialects....Now somehow, through your logic the people who are posting in this thread are "Friggin' overreacting douchebags." When really, most of them are just imparting stories they are fond of about a time passed, without even referencing you.

I don't know what irony means, but this is certainly as good a time as ever to look it up.

[Melissia]

I don't know what irony meansI can tell. Read the post above mine which I was responding to. Condescension is certainly rather douchey.

[miteyheroes]

The Mail Order Troll is one of the few links back to GW's far more humorous past, when they released games like "Oi! Dat's Me Leg!" and "Trollz in da Pantry". It has been used consistently for decades without much confusion, especially to those who used to receive GW's Troll Magazine.

Troll magazine was the black-and-white folded-over-A4 one, right? Filled with conversion kits and that sort of thing. Wonderful publication.

Oh, one of the classic GW Boardgames as this year's October Mystery Release? Trollz in da Pantry, perhaps? That'd be ace! I remember it was released before I joined the hobby, but an older cousin of mine had a copy and jealously guarded it...

[CitizenZero]

I can tell.I'm glad you can tell my point, because I clearly cited who I was speaking/referring to. If I would have put a post up without actually responding to anyone in particular, except for a nebulous pluralized "douchebags" it may have been a bit more difficult to understand. That is of course, is only if the "I can tell." line wasn't being condescending...because as we all know

Condescension is certainly rather douchey.I am looking up irony now though, next time I should be able to identify it...

[Melissia]

Huh, hadn't ever heard of Trolls in the Pantry. Wonder if I can find info on how to play it...


[snip]"I can tell" was sarcastic.

[Col.Gravis]

Troll magazine was the black-and-white folded-over-A4 one, right? Filled with conversion kits and that sort of thing. Wonderful publication.


Thats the one, sadly missed back when GW had more of a sense of humour.

[MVBrandt]

Grey Knights and Necrons is what I'd say. Both of them can still win games, you just have to play them right and not go for thematic armies...

This line is one of the briefest ways to effectively point out why the new format is antithetical to their intent.

Some new kid 16 year old with his imperial guard battleforce is going to be the LOWEST SCORING GUARD PLAYER THERE, while some hardcore beardy cheeseball with a tweaked out DH list is going to waltz home with the prize.

So ******* stupid.

[Melissia]

Dude, even a "tweaked out DH list" is going to be pretty lame compared to an even semi-decent IG list anyway.

[TheBitzBarn]

I asked what he meant, tha'ts all. Friggin' overreacting douchebags.

Talk about over reacting Most people are not even talking about you anymore. They seems to be a thread that has been hijack about memories of the past. Douchebag seems strong for this as it would be assumed that a such a knowledgeable poster as you would know" Mail Order Troll", of course there is another assumption in there!

[MVBrandt]

Dude, even a "tweaked out DH list" is going to be pretty lame compared to an even semi-decent IG list anyway.

Semi-true, but largely irrelevant to the point.

[Jwolf]

I'm interested in the ToS format largely because it is different and I'm interested to see if my theory about it is correct.

My theory, by the way, is that many of the same people who win tournaments now will do well in the ToS format. This theory is based on my opinion that strong, adaptive players tend to win tournaments more often than netlisting powergamers.

Also any format that encourages people to play some different army lists from different codices is at least going to make the field potentially more interesting, which is a good thing.

I do want to be clear - the ToS format is not at all going to find out who the best player, even for that event, was. But almost no tournaments can make that claim (and most that do shouldn't). Even those who have a theoretically Swiss outcome can only get to a pure result with binary scoring, which I don't use (as binary scoring has a lot of granularity issues that I think take away from the overall accuracy of the results). The ToS involves a bit more metagaming than I'd prefer, but the rules are out for everyone to participate in that game, so it is a level (if wierd) playingfield.

[Revarien]

I asked what he meant, tha'ts all.....

I was confused too :(

[Aldramelech]

Always a pleasure to enlighten and educate :)

[Gotthammer]

Huh, hadn't ever heard of Trolls in the Pantry. Wonder if I can find info on how to play it...

Board Game Geek (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5688/trolls-in-the-pantry) has some info on it, though not much.

[Denzark]

I'm interested in the ToS format largely because it is different and I'm interested to see if my theory about it is correct.

My theory, by the way, is that many of the same people who win tournaments now will do well in the ToS format. This theory is based on my opinion that strong, adaptive players tend to win tournaments more often than netlisting powergamers.

Also any format that encourages people to play some different army lists from different codices is at least going to make the field potentially more interesting, which is a good thing.

I do want to be clear - the ToS format is not at all going to find out who the best player, even for that event, was. But almost no tournaments can make that claim (and most that do shouldn't). Even those who have a theoretically Swiss outcome can only get to a pure result with binary scoring, which I don't use (as binary scoring has a lot of granularity issues that I think take away from the overall accuracy of the results). The ToS involves a bit more metagaming than I'd prefer, but the rules are out for everyone to participate in that game, so it is a level (if wierd) playingfield.

THe TOS format will probably still see winners go to some sort of power lister in each army type - due to the weighting of points. For winning games, you get 3 points each. If by some miracle you were voted favourite player by all opponents you played, you would still only get an average of one extra point per game.

What will be interesting is the Overall winner merely needs the highest mark above average for his army type - therefore a '2nd tier' army who may have had a couple of lucky wins/draws and some favourite army marks, could succeed if the latest uber-codex produces consistent high marks.

PS Jwolf what do you mean by swiss format and binary scoring?

[Melissia]

Board Game Geek (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5688/trolls-in-the-pantry) has some info on it, though not much.

Hah! The description alone is hilarious. GW does not write like that anymore, unfortunately :(

[Aldramelech]

THe TOS format will probably still see winners go to some sort of power lister in each army type - due to the weighting of points. For winning games, you get 3 points each. If by some miracle you were voted favourite player by all opponents you played, you would still only get an average of one extra point per game.

What will be interesting is the Overall winner merely needs the highest mark above average for his army type - therefore a '2nd tier' army who may have had a couple of lucky wins/draws and some favourite army marks, could succeed if the latest uber-codex produces consistent high marks.

PS Jwolf what do you mean by swiss format and binary scoring?


A Swiss tournament goes for a predetermined number of rounds, with all of the players taking part in each round. In each round two players compete head-to-head. All players participate in the entire tournament – none are eliminated. The winner (and top places) of the tournament is based on the final scores of the players. The final score is based on the number of points they accumulated for each round. In some competitions, one point is awarded to the winner of a round; in others, a number of points can be earned each round.

The principle of a Swiss tournament is that each player will be pitted against another player who has done as well (or poorly) as him or herself. For the first round, players are paired either according to some pattern or randomly (according to common practice in that type of game or sport). For subsequent rounds, players are sorted according to their cumulative scores and players are assigned opponents that have the same or similar score to that point. One proviso is that the same players never oppose each other twice. There may be adjustments made to the natural order. For instance, in chess the pairings may be changed to equalize the number of times a player has been White and Black.

[Denzark]

welll well, every day is a school day!

[Cossack]

Hopefully the hyper-competitive types will be driven away from 40K completely!

[hungryghosts]

It was a good magazine, some issues even offered limited release items not available elsewhere (like the dual-purpose Eldar Epic Tanks / Dark Eldar BFG Ships), lots of pages of the older models for whatever new ranges were also being released, or for Specialist Games not promoted in WD.

They don't show up on ebay very often, but don't cost very much when they do. There were 80 issues released from 1998 to October 2004.

[Lord Anubis]

Troll Boss Bob's Bargain Basement was a great thing of the past. Troll Boss Bob was the manager of the US Mail order team in Baltimore in the mid/late 90's. THey used to take all the damaged/returned product and sell it at a discount. The old purple boxes of stealers for $2.99, Warriors from a pallet that got crushed coming across the pond for $5 a box, Old One Eyes on the same pallet $5. Ended up with a 4,000 poitn army for $50.

I miss the trolls...

Awwww... The Bargain Basement used to be my homepage, just to make sure I'd never miss anything good. Once got two land radiers and a trio of Basilisks for something like $65.

They were the golden years, indeed... :)

[david5th]

And the Sesame Street word of the day is...Douchebag.

[sergentzimm]

Is there an official page with this information on it about the tourny? I couldnt find it on the website.

[miteyheroes]

Is there an official page with this information on it about the tourny? I couldnt find it on the website.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/articleCategory.jsp?communityArticleCatId=2200004&articleCatId=2200004&catId=&section=community

[Dark_Templar]

Agreed. As far as Im aware they are still called this. This predates common useage of the internet and the meaning of it now.

You cant describe them as red shirts as they are not red shirts.

Any GW fan over a certain age in this country will always use this.

I live in Australia and it was clear what you were referring to. Melissia just needs to stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

*puts on asbestos body suit*

[Little Brother]

I liked this thread because it was really 3 threads in one. Tournaments, reminiscing about the good old days and the douche/irony/condescension conversation.

Very entertaining.

I think what many people fail to realise is that on these forums your tone of voice, facial expression, body language, and mood do not come across, when you type. The reader then puts attaches their own interpretation, depending on their mood, speech patterns and writing style.

I was once accused of being of being slightly condescending on here. My actual intent at the time was to come across as very angry about about anothers rudeness. But because I didn't swear or make comments about his relationship with his mother (as someone later did about me) etc, my message was lost.