What's up with the Tyranid FAQ? (NOT Spirit Leech Discussion)

[Tynskel]

What's up with the Tyranid FAQ?

Nevermind the Doom of Malantai--- we all knew they were going to rule on that in some fashion.


But:

1)Psychic Scream not effecting units in transports (ie Psykers)
2) Shadows of the Warp not effecting units in transports (ie Psykers)
3) No more IC in Drop Spores! I know that this was abused--- but limiting this to just the Warriors would have been a better solution. They got rid of the Drop Spore Army as an option by doing this. You now have to take some sort of flying creature.


What makes me angry is that Tyranids have a tough enough time with Armor as is. And now they nerf the ability to stop DEADLY units that can hide in armor.

JotWW 1) can freely attack your MC--- AND freely stop your psychic powers that would attempt to open the can.

Psyker Battle Squads can cast their INSTANT DEATH WEAPON at Warriors, and the warriors have no way to negate that power now.

Poop in a Box!

[Melissia]

Shouldn't this be in tactics or general, rahter than Rules?

This isn't a rules discussion, it's just whining about how to deal with rules.

[eriochrome]

What's up with the Tyranid FAQ?

Nevermind the Doom of Malantai--- we all knew they were going to rule on that in some fashion.


But:

1)Psychic Scream not effecting units in transports (ie Psykers)
2) Shadows of the Warp not effecting units in transports (ie Psykers)
3) No more IC in Drop Spores! I know that this was abused--- but limiting this to just the Warriors would have been a better solution. They got rid of the Drop Spore Army as an option by doing this. You now have to take some sort of flying creature.


What makes me angry is that Tyranids have a tough enough time with Armor as is. And now they nerf the ability to stop DEADLY units that can hide in armor.

JotWW 1) can freely attack your MC--- AND freely stop your psychic powers that would attempt to open the can.

Psyker Battle Squads can cast their INSTANT DEATH WEAPON at Warriors, and the warriors have no way to negate that power now.

Poop in a Box!

1.) I believe that Psychic Scream is a psychic power and by BRB FAQ rule cannot affect units inside transports. Only psychic powers cast from inside from inside the transport by an attached psycher can.

2.) This was done to be consistant with the Spirit Leech ruling since they both have the same mechanic for determining who is affected (measure distance) and neither are psychic powers by rule. They were lazy and instead of rewritting the Leech rule to say it does not work they just claimed it did not. Ofcourse in a consistant world this would also mean that psychic hoods cannot target psychers in transports but good luck getting anyone to play that way.

3.) Pods are not transports in the traditional sense(they are not vehicles where the transport rules are written) so none of the transport rules apply so they just went the way of RAW since there are no rules for placing ICs with the units. It is a fine RAW decision but does make many of the drop units pretty worthless since they cannot take synapse with them.

[Tynskel]

Shouldn't this be in tactics or general, rahter than Rules?

This isn't a rules discussion, it's just whining about how to deal with rules.

This isn't whining about how to deal with rule... it is whining about the rules. And, I am not talking about tactics either--- I am talking about how the vehicle rules are completely inconsistent!

[Melissia]

This isn't whining about how to deal with rule... it is whining about the rules. And, I am not talking about tactics either--- I am talking about how the vehicle rules are completely inconsistent!

In that case-- just deal with it.

You think I enjoy having to use overpriced rhinos, overpriced special/heavy weapons, overpriced razorback clones with fewer options, assault troops without assault weapons, overpriced troops choice clones with even more overpricd special weapons that have to take a mandatory overpriced vehicle, assault-based HQs with a low WS stat, and expensive and jump units which while useful are fragile and expensive? And let's not forget priests which have no equipment at all to start off with (not even armor of any kind) while costing the same as a terminator, ludicrously expensive arco-flagellants, hilariously bad Repentia, and expensive and fragile Penitent Engines. Tyranids have it damned good compared to this army. And even Sisters have it good compared to Grey Knights.

Hell, Orks are in a worse situation than Tyranids, they have effectively one ranged anti-tank units worth taking-- an expensive (fifteen points each) elites choice that requires large numbers in order to be effective (because of random shot numbers and BS2), while only being able to fire at a single target at any given time, and it isn't even effective against AV14. The only real solution to AV14 is to assault, and Orks can only really do damage to most vehicles with a single model in most of their squads-- and to AV14 all around, only with a single character choice in the army can reliably damage it after the first assault phase. Nob squads can do anti-tank in an assault, but they're extremely expensive and in order to penetrate armor at any reasonable rate they need to cost at least 45 points each, and they need a transport or warbikes in order to actually reach their target before they're wiped out bringing their cost to even more lulzworthy levels.

Yes, Tyranids have it a bit rough against the top three armies right now-- Guard, BA, and SW-- but this thread you made where you're just crying about how you have it soooooooooooooo bad is just pathetic.

[Harriegh Haemonculus]

Dang, someone is wearing their leather panties rather tight this morning

[Melissia]

Dang, someone is wearing their leather panties rather tight this morning

That would be rather bad, considering I'm allergic to leather :P

[Aldramelech]

That would be rather bad, considering I'm allergic to leather :P

Well thats not very Cowgirl is it? :D

[Melissia]

There's no leather touching the skin in cowgirl clothes I've worn.

But then, you're probably thinking that idiotic "rhinestone cowboy" look that lame-*** no-talent country singers popularized...

[Nabterayl]

Ofcourse in a consistant world this would also mean that psychic hoods cannot target psychers in transports but good luck getting anyone to play that way.
That's certainly how I intend to play, and I have a feeling my group will go along with me. That's the point of treating FAQs as "unofficial" - it gives you the intellectual latitude to apply their principles consistently, as opposed to the "well my FAQ doesn't say that" nonsense.

[DarkLink]

This isn't whining about how to deal with rule... it is whining about the rules. And, I am not talking about tactics either--- I am talking about how the vehicle rules are completely inconsistent!

GW is more concerned with balance than consistency, though you can debate whether or not all this is balanced or not.

And I think that whining about the rules goes into the General section:p

[Aldramelech]

There's no leather touching the skin in cowgirl clothes I've worn.

But then, you're probably thinking that idiotic "rhinestone cowboy" look that lame-*** no-talent country singers popularized...

Dont break my heart, my achey breaky heart, I just dont think it'l understand.........:D

[DaveLL]

2) Shadows of the Warp not effecting units in transports (ie Psykers)
This ruling just strikes me as a bad idea. Even if it's consistent, etc., it makes a new (and not likely to be updated within the next few years) codex worse against builds that already didn't really need the help.
Not that I have a stake in it either way; I don't run 'nids, vehicles, or psykers. But librarians in metal boxes don't really need extra protection. (It also makes no sense from a fluff standpoint, realistically. What, are the walls of the rhino/LR imbued with materials that make the hive mind forget that anybody's inside?)
I'm also somewhat baffled by the spod ruling, as I wasn't aware of any actual reason to keep primes out of spods. As far as I can tell, the rules seemed pretty vague on the matter, it is allowed in other armies, and I wasn't aware of it actually being problematic with 'nids. How abusive could it possibly be to include a Prime in a spod? It's not as if they're really undercosted...

[Angelofblades]

This isn't whining about how to deal with rule... it is whining about the rules. And, I am not talking about tactics either--- I am talking about how the vehicle rules are completely inconsistent!

Right, vehicle rules for a non-vehicle unit. You're right on the money there bud, truly, what were GW thinking ?! consistency right ? Applying vehicles rules to a non-vehicle unit....What was the rear armor on a mycetic spore again? Oh wait, since it's immobile, does that mean I can blow off it's weapons?

/sarcasm

[Tynskel]

That would be rather bad, considering I'm allergic to leather :P

Maybe that's why you are so pouty.

[Tynskel]

Right, vehicle rules for a non-vehicle unit. You're right on the money there bud, truly, what were GW thinking ?! consistency right ? Applying vehicles rules to a non-vehicle unit....What was the rear armor on a mycetic spore again? Oh wait, since it's immobile, does that mean I can blow off it's weapons?

/sarcasm

dedicated transport rules have NOTHING to do with the vehicle rules. Read the section! it is a tiny little sidebar. Then go to the reserves section: you just assign the characters to the transport. The vehicle rules, in no way, interfere with the dedicated transport rules.

[Angelofblades]

dedicated transport rules have NOTHING to do with the vehicle rules. Read the section! it is a tiny little sidebar. Then go to the reserves section: you just assign the characters to the transport. The vehicle rules, in no way, interfere with the dedicated transport rules.


I'm sorry, were you referring to this one?

Page 67


DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force orginazation chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty Space Marine Land Raider).


Hrmm.. I think this does it for me right here:



...allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit.

Did you say something about it having nothing to do with vehicles?

[Tynskel]

U got me there.

However,

The mechanic is the same-- deploy within 2". You can't shake n' stun the occupants, because they get out the instant the pod drops.

Does it matter that the Spore Pod Carries 20 models/ or one Monsterous Creature? And, what does this have to do with not allowing IC joining squads in a dedicated transport (which the codex does label the Spore Pod as a Dedicated Transport).

I just find the ruling very odd. I know it is probably to cut down on Primes being attached to Zoans or Gaunts. But seriously? Not being able to attach to spodding warriors?

[Tynskel]

This ruling just strikes me as a bad idea. Even if it's consistent, etc., it makes a new (and not likely to be updated within the next few years) codex worse against builds that already didn't really need the help.
Not that I have a stake in it either way; I don't run 'nids, vehicles, or psykers. But librarians in metal boxes don't really need extra protection. (It also makes no sense from a fluff standpoint, realistically. What, are the walls of the rhino/LR imbued with materials that make the hive mind forget that anybody's inside?)
I'm also somewhat baffled by the spod ruling, as I wasn't aware of any actual reason to keep primes out of spods. As far as I can tell, the rules seemed pretty vague on the matter, it is allowed in other armies, and I wasn't aware of it actually being problematic with 'nids. How abusive could it possibly be to include a Prime in a spod? It's not as if they're really undercosted...



Well, Primes in Guant sqauds has been abused--- but limiting them to warriors wouldn't have been wrong--- they are supposed to be with warriors.

As for the other comment, completely agree. Guard armies do not need help.

[aztex3400]

Here is my take on this. If they can affect me then I can affect them.
Ok, the units inside of a vehicle are allowed to fire from firing ports. thats fine, but no P-Hoods can be used then, as they are not using a weapon. P-shooting cool, nothing else, no sang priests aura, no KFF, nothing else unless its a P-Shooting attack.
This is because they are not on the board and nothing can affect them. Therefore, they can affect nothing.

See sane and consistent ruling.

Geez, this new ruling really chaps my hide. such a non-fluff ruling as I have eve rheard.
Oh and BTW, my sister was a real cowgirl and she did have leather that did touch her skin.

[SeattleDV8]

Nice try,but you failed, even with the sarcasm.
BRB FAQ

"Q. Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a
transport vehicle?
A. Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is
still worked out from the vehicle’s fire points
(this will count as one model shooting through
that fire point if the power is used in the
Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight
and has a range or an area of effect that is
normally measured from the model using it, these
are measured from the vehicle’s hull, as
explained in the Embarking section on page 66."

[Tynskel]

Nice try,but you failed, even with the sarcasm.
BRB FAQ

"Q. Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a
transport vehicle?
A. Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is
still worked out from the vehicle’s fire points
(this will count as one model shooting through
that fire point if the power is used in the
Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight
and has a range or an area of effect that is
normally measured from the model using it, these
are measured from the vehicle’s hull, as
explained in the Embarking section on page 66."

too bad my shadows of the warp cannot stop this! Nor my Psychic Scream!

I think this shows us that Daemons and Tyranids could use some vehicles. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

[SeattleDV8]

Indeed, sad but true.

[HsojVvad]

Anyone really surprised by this? Has any rules ever go against SM or Imperial players? It does seem that GW favours the Imperial players.

Lets see, Elder unflavourable, Chaos Unflavourable. All colour or should I say chapters or Hive worlds GONE. SM on the other hand have their colourfull chatpers to play with. It just looks Non Imperial players get dulled down, or neutered rules.

Am I wrong here?

[murrburger]

I don't really miss the Craftworld Eldar book. Literally every army in that book was as cheap as hell. (I've played Eldar since 2nd)

The old Chaos book was a nightmare. Iron Warriors were the most popular army, anyways.

I don't really know what you're talking about here, Space Marines lost their traits and all that chapter approved crap, and Guard lost their doctrines. Besides, what's the problem with using your imagination? Do you really need a fourth HS slot to play IW, or rules for Chem Inhalers?

I don't know why you're complaining about rules. If you like Nids, play Nids. If you care about how awful and horrible their rules are more than you like them, sell them and find another army.

[Tynskel]

I don't really miss the Craftworld Eldar book. Literally every army in that book was as cheap as hell. (I've played Eldar since 2nd)

The old Chaos book was a nightmare. Iron Warriors were the most popular army, anyways.

I don't really know what you're talking about here, Space Marines lost their traits and all that chapter approved crap, and Guard lost their doctrines. Besides, what's the problem with using your imagination? Do you really need a fourth HS slot to play IW, or rules for Chem Inhalers?

I don't know why you're complaining about rules. If you like Nids, play Nids. If you care about how awful and horrible their rules are more than you like them, sell them and find another army.

No way, I am not selling my models--- I have tons of 2nd Edition models I have been using since the 90's!

[Melissia]

Anyone really surprised by this? Has any rules ever go against SM or Imperial players? It does seem that GW favours the Imperial players.

See the third edition Imperial codices, which are sitting in limbo.

[HsojVvad]

See the third edition Imperial codices, which are sitting in limbo.

LOL, wich ones The paper version or the PDF version? LMFAO.

Serisoulsy, yes I know what you mean.

[BuFFo]

Anyone really surprised by this? Has any rules ever go against SM or Imperial players? It does seem that GW favours the Imperial players.

Lets see, Elder unflavourable, Chaos Unflavourable. All colour or should I say chapters or Hive worlds GONE. SM on the other hand have their colourfull chatpers to play with. It just looks Non Imperial players get dulled down, or neutered rules.

Am I wrong here?

Eldar Reserve bonuses stack while the IG bonuses do not.

:)

[the jeske]

only because the debuff was killing demon armies giving them a cumulative -2 on entry of second wave , what coupled with mystics ment IG more or less killed demons as a viable army . + SM were whining about their pod armies too.

last time I saw GW change something for the non imperials , was when they made that stupid faq in 4th ed saying that synaps saves you from ID if the weapon is double str , but not when its more then double str.

[Renegade]

The crying over this faq is nothing more than those that had chosen to misrepresent the rules, and built lists and advised others falsely on these misrepresentations.

The is it really all Tyranid and BA players that are crying, or is it the vocal majority that use the webs?

Its done and the rules are now clear. (SitW was a bit of a naff one though)

[the jeske]

dude no one cares about the doom ruling . everyone knew it was stupid , but the way it was writen it did work on transported units. Your not going to tell me that , before the FAQ you stoped your nid opponents from using shadown of the warp on transported psykers or stoped warrior primes from joining warriors in pods ? or that you made people roll cover from mawlocks[not that anyone played those] , doom etc.


also there are BA that dont like their FAQ ?? damn they must realy like DC tycho and libby dreads.

[Renegade]

Libby dread s aye, and see DC Tycho as just not worth taking anymore.

I have always read it as SL not working RAW (and yes, some Nid players have been crying about it on the webs), though SitW is one that I would say that GW were harsh on. Some of those things, like Spores, were just assumed to work in away that it seems GW see's as incorrect, or not as they inteneded. The Spore is not a vehicle after all. GW has put the FAQ up, no more assumptions. There was a potential RAW argument for them working as GW has decided in the first place.

I don't think that GW perposely "nurfs" any one of its armies, but it does try and create rues for how they "evision" them, and rule for that vision.

I tend to play in a group of others that have been in the game for a while, so rule debates are cleared up quickly before the game and often don't come up at all.

[HsojVvad]

I don't think that GW perposely "nurfs" any one of its armies, but it does try and create rues for how they "evision" them, and rule for that vision.


Ah, I take it you didn't see the DA codex then. That was done on purpose. :p

but because of the SM out lash and crying, it was changed when it was time to update the SM codex. :eek:

[Renegade]

Ah, I take it you didn't see the DA codex then. That was done on purpose. :p

but because of the SM out lash and crying, it was changed when it was time to update the SM codex. :eek:

And you hear them SM players complain about everything after C:SM. All of the 5ed codices are much better than balanced with each other than 4ed codices were, C:DA and C:CSM were a thorough kick in the nuts when C:Daemons is considered and design going all over the place.

As far as I see it, GW looks as xenos being... well xenos. None of what they have should be that close to the Human armies, so SitW is not the same as a Psy Hood, and Spores should not be considered living Drop pods. Send in more things to eat Mech, hell even the DoM can do that, it is a zoan after all, and your big guys are getting cover from little guys.

[the jeske]

Some of those things, like Spores, were just assumed to work in away that it seems GW see's as incorrect, or not as they inteneded. The Spore is not a vehicle after all.
but if the FAQ is not about actual rules or how they writen them , but about intended game play , then why create a difference between a nid pod and meq pod ? that makes just as much sense as ... damn I just realised I wanted to write same gear with different rules <_<. OK FAQ makes sense , nids not meq , so nids changed in places meq players may not liked it . + some arbitary changes that make no sense game play or army power lvl wise.



I don't think that GW perposely "nurfs" any one of its armies, but it does try and create rues for how they "evision" them, and rule for that vision.
the way they "evinsion" stuff makes it impossible for nids win any major event and as the difference between casual lists and tournaments lists is that the casual ones dont have the obligatory 5 colors on them , makes it realy sucky to play nids. specialy as nid players already have "fun" with playing with a codex centered around small squads and MC in a mecha edition , that buffs troops. I would understand the FAQ , the way it was made , if nids were too dominant . Or if they were a collectors army like WH/DH , but this is forcing people to play more meq and more IG and making lists look even more the same .



I tend to play in a group of others that have been in the game for a while, so rule debates are cleared up quickly before the game and often don't come up at all.
it is the same here . only making rulings as judge or when you make national FAQ/tournament rulings hard when half the FAQ are made with RAW in mind and the other half with RAI.



Send in more things to eat Mech, hell even the DoM can do that, it is a zoan after all, and your big guys are getting cover from little guys.
good luck with A moving 200 guants within the 8 min time limit without any errors[which may end up with a DQ] B enough table space to actualy get them move anywhere . C IG and SP drop one and a half MC a turn with or without cover anyway , so good luck with the walking part. D welcome to w40k where 50% of armies can take whirlwinds . E good luck with blowing up mecha when hoods/rune staffs/runes of warding stop half of your zoans everytime , before any cover save , penetration roll etc. Wonder how meq players would like the idea of meltas working 50% of time.

[Melissia]

It's a difference between a 'nid pod, a biological organism, and a drop pod, a mechanical construct.

Frankly I agree that they should allow HQ independent characters to attach to squads in 'nid pods. And if an opponent asks, I'll probably let them play that way as a house rule.

[BuFFo]

It's a difference between a 'nid pod, a biological organism, and a drop pod, a mechanical construct.

Frankly I agree that they should allow HQ independent characters to attach to squads in 'nid pods. And if an opponent asks, I'll probably let them play that way as a house rule.

So....

You'll let your opponent play with a 'house rule' because you feel that GWs 'house rule' has more authority?

A nid player in my local game store sticks ICs in Spore Pods regardless of what his opponent says, and only plays people who 'let' his SotW affect psykers in vehicles. To force a house rule on him is rather stupid. The only thing he follows is the Errata for Tyranids.

[Melissia]

No, I play a houserule because I feel the houserule is more fun.

I'd ask why this isn't obvious, but then given whom I'm talking to I suppose a lack of comprehension of the idea of "fun" is to be expected.

[Renegade]

Buffo, BT have a single buff that makes them fun to use, and it's 150 points. Other than than they are paying through the nose for everthing else, have zero psy defense without allying, little long range fire power and rely on getting in to cc to win games, and people onsider them a higher-mid or mid tier army. I really can't see what nid players are complaining about, adapt and stop trying to play them as a marine list, play them as Nids.

Hell, if you really want I will ask a mate of mine to right up the cheesiest list he can for them, and I have seen this guy lose on only a few occasions (he doesn't do tourneys as he doesn't like the pressure.)

I have no real sympathy, you have played at least one edition so you should know how it rocks, this kind of thing has been done before.

[BuFFo]

No, I play a houserule because I feel the houserule is more fun.

I'd ask why this isn't obvious, but then given whom I'm talking to I suppose a lack of comprehension of the idea of "fun" is to be expected.

Oh, you took me off ignore finally?

Here I thought my little boy was all grown up and mature, but then I actually read your response...

Yup... You are still incapable of an adult conversation without childishly insulting people. Shame tom since I respected what your first sentence said, and agreed with.

You were almost there... Almost... :(


Buffo, BT have a single buff that makes them fun to use, and it's 150 points. Other than than they are paying through the nose for everthing else, have zero psy defense without allying, little long range fire power and rely on getting in to cc to win games, and people onsider them a higher-mid or mid tier army. I really can't see what nid players are complaining about, adapt and stop trying to play them as a marine list, play them as Nids.

Hell, if you really want I will ask a mate of mine to right up the cheesiest list he can for them, and I have seen this guy lose on only a few occasions (he doesn't do tourneys as he doesn't like the pressure.)

I have no real sympathy, you have played at least one edition so you should know how it rocks, this kind of thing has been done before.

I do see your point, but I never ever compare codices with each other. That is just wrong because you'll never get any where. Arguments between codices never end, and are most of the time, circular.

What I do is make sure rulings are consistent, if that makes any sense. For every other book, GW plays RAW, but with the 'Nids, GWs house rules play RAI. It just blows my mind.

[Bean]

Oh, you took me off ignore finally?

Here I thought my little boy was all grown up and mature, but then I actually read your response...

Yup... You are still incapable of an adult conversation without childishly insulting people. Shame tom since I respected what your first sentence said, and agreed with.

You were almost there... Almost... :(

On the other hand, BuFFo, you should be happy that someone's keeping you company in your sandbox. I mean, if everyone around here were a mature adult, there wouldn't be anyone to whom you could relate. =P

[Renegade]

What I do is make sure rulings are consistent, if that makes any sense. What edition did that happen in? I personally can't think of one where GW was consistent. If it not rules, then its design that goes wonky. I would rather GW stuck to there design philosophy throughout this edition, even if that means that some rules rulings are going to be iffy.

I can see lash and talons making it in to more Nid lists, as well as a few... whatever those burrowing buggers are called. Basically,more of the big things and nasty things.

Some of this crying all over the webs does seem a bit OTT, but then I have never used any kind of psycker, or Nids, so what do I know.

[BuFFo]

On the other hand, BuFFo, you should be happy that someone's keeping you company in your sandbox. I mean, if everyone around here were a mature adult, there wouldn't be anyone to whom you could relate. =P

Try harder please.

At least Melissa has style.

[the jeske]

whatever those burrowing buggers are called
you get cover from the borrowing . it kills less people then a vindicator , comes random due to reservs and dies like a prime while not costing less+ it does nothing against nid main problem which is anti tank.


I can see lash and talons making it in to more Nid lists

on what models ? warriors that just lost their unit leaders or are nids to suppose to slogg warriors across the tables? Because I dont see IG runing ogryns in some brutal hth build[ogryns + raiders supported by vets in chimers , which block los to ogryns so they dont get ID] and they can use t4 3w units better then nids.



I really can't see what nid players are complaining about, adapt and stop trying to play them as a marine list, play them as Nids.
could you post a sample 1500 nid tournament list that works ? and doesnt have very bad match ups with mecha or meq lists? also if you play BT you know that your dex is in the future [and in the mean time you can counts as with SW/BA codex sm etc] , the next nid codex comes in 6th ed.

[Renegade]

you get cover from the borrowing . it kills less people then a vindicator , comes random due to reservs and dies like a prime while not costing less+ it does nothing against nid main problem which is anti tank.

Its an MC is it not! And yeah, I know a lot about random elements. Have it come up under any vehicle formation and that formation is lost.


on what models ? warriors that just lost their unit leaders or are nids to suppose to slogg warriors across the tables? Because I dont see IG runing ogryns in some brutal hth build[ogryns + raiders supported by vets in chimers , which block los to ogryns so they dont get ID] and they can use t4 3w units better then nids.

And I am yet to see a mech build that lasts long in my area. Spore units like Fex's in stead of lil gribblies, and don't Spores count as a MC in there own right?


could you post a sample 1500 nid tournament list that works ? and doesnt have very bad match ups with mecha or meq lists? also if you play BT you know that your dex is in the future [and in the mean time you can counts as with SW/BA codex sm etc] , the next nid codex comes in 6th ed. Fine, I'll get my friend to do a list and send it to ya. As for that last bit, not a chance, I would collect those armies if I had wanted to play them, they are not BT! You may as well Melissa to use Scouts in the Smurf dex as 'counts as' sisters.

[the jeske]

Have it come up under any vehicle formation and that formation is lost.
have you seen the str it has and the blast template is not ordynance it doesnt roll 2d6 on penetration.



Fine, I'll get my friend to do a list and send it to ya.
thank you very much.

[Tynskel]

have you seen the str it has and the blast template is not ordynance it doesnt roll 2d6 on penetration.



thank you very much.

The Mawloc can be one of the most destructive units in the game. It, however, requires some planning. If the Mawloc deepstrikes, and the models cannot physically move out of the way, they are removed! A couple of spore pods with Gaunts: surround the opponent, then have the Mawloc come up the middle. Most likely, they cannot get out of the way! Nevermind the Str6 Ap2 large blast. "Any models that cannot be moved out of the way are destroyed." p. 51 C:T.

Bwahahahahh!

This is something that I saw the Mawloc could do from day 1. However, everyone thought the model couldn't deep strike into units, but that's been resolved now.

Soooomething in the Tyranid FAQ was good news for Tyranid Players.

This guy makes it hard for people to castle. What's even better, a Mystic'd Inquisitor cannot shoot until AFTER the Mawloc has arrived and done its damage. Hurray!

[the jeske]

A couple of spore pods with Gaunts: surround the opponent, then have the Mawloc come up the middle
nice plan considering pod get ID and mawlocks have a random entry . what if the pods dont come and the mawlock does ? what if the pods come and then the mawlock does not come ? An army cant be build around the idea [well it can , but it will never be tier 1] if I get turn one and my opponent stands there for a turn doing nothing . Not to mention the fact that the guants my just simple get counter charged and be dead.



This is something that I saw the Mawloc could do from day 1
and ? most armies are mecha , eldar and tau have skimer transports and tanks , every army out there has one turn to move away from pod+mawlock set up , unless they all drop on the same turn. again the chance of getting 2-3 pods and a mawlock on the same turn , on regular bases would mean one needs 3 mawlocks and around 9 pod units , impossible to do in normal games.



What's even better, a Mystic'd Inquisitor cannot shoot until AFTER the Mawloc has arrived and done its damage
but it can help kill the pods and you have to roll for mawlocks entry last , because if you roll for it as first reserv roll the pod circle with guants isnt there and your opponent move away.


This guy makes it hard for people to castle.
aside for IG[and they nerf reservs , so a mawlock build is already a bad idea] what armies do that ? tau dont play static gunline and all other armies are mecha .

[Angelofblades]

The Mawloc can be one of the most destructive units in the game. It, however, requires some planning. If the Mawloc deepstrikes, and the models cannot physically move out of the way, they are removed! A couple of spore pods with Gaunts: surround the opponent, then have the Mawloc come up the middle. Most likely, they cannot get out of the way! Nevermind the Str6 Ap2 large blast. "Any models that cannot be moved out of the way are destroyed." p. 51 C:T.

Bwahahahahh!



I'm sorry, my army went full reserve, and you went first. The normal way you beat a DS army hasn't changed. Go mecha and go in full reserve. What do you DS against then? A Mawloc can't burrow the turn it arrives, and what does one do for pods that don't have anything to scatter against?

[Tynskel]

you plan ahead a little bit more.

1) Tyrant offers +1 to reserver rolls.
2) the Mawloc can start on the board and Burrow, auto come-in the next turn.

It doesn't take very many pods to make this work-- pods take up a lot of space, and have to Drop Pod scatter rules-- When pulling a maneuver like this off, the pods are reliable, I do it all the time with Marines. The pods almost never scatter, there's no room for them to scatter. The Mawloc can scatter, unless it is terrible, it won't matter much.

~700 points of an army-- Which 50% (1850 points) deep striking in an army is not uncommon. Couple of guants +pods and Mawloc. Very easily not basing the army around the idea. The advantage is that you can be flexible-- respond to your opponent's deployment.


In no way am I suggesting taking 3 Mawlocs. This is just a tactic. You do not design your army around a tactic, you design your tactics around your army. The Mawloc, like a Trygon, has diminishing returns after taking 1-- it is better to take one, and leave open the possibility of flexibility.

[Renegade]

I'm sorry, my army went full reserve, and you went first. The normal way you beat a DS army hasn't changed. Go mecha and go in full reserve. What do you DS against then? A Mawloc can't burrow the turn it arrives, and what does one do for pods that don't have anything to scatter against?

Then you take all the objectives, or best defensive positions, first turn. That makes you a horrible obstacle to move.

No plan is fool proof, but it helps if your not the fool. (meant this generally, no offence)

[gannam]

I finally made the decision to put the nids back on the shelf for competitive play. I will let others try and work against GW to make this army a good one. I am building a space wolves army so I can bask in the sun.

The nids are extremely good in objective based games, but really fail in kill point and victory point missions. Almost every tournament, I found this to be true.

Good luck to all you xeno players out there. I am tired of throwing my money away with little chance to win any swag for my efforts.

[Melissia]

Godddamn quitter...

Come ON! The 'Nid codex is in the top five codices in 40k right now... yes, one can argue they're at the bottom of the top five, but they're still there. Here I am still using C:WH competitively despite all its myriad flaws-- and they are legion-- and you are dropping the 'nid codex in all its power and glory just because of a few setbacks? Nevermind those people that use Grey Knights and Necron armies competitively and still manage to win regularly ...

[BuFFo]

I finally made the decision to put the nids back on the shelf for competitive play. I will let others try and work against GW to make this army a good one. I am building a space wolves army so I can bask in the sun.

The nids are extremely good in objective based games, but really fail in kill point and victory point missions. Almost every tournament, I found this to be true.

Good luck to all you xeno players out there. I am tired of throwing my money away with little chance to win any swag for my efforts.

Nid player in Central Florida got first place in the 'Ard Boyz semi round. He ran next to no monstrous creatures and mainly ran Gargoyles. Second was Double Lash Chaos and Third was IG Mech.

Take your skirt off, pick your balls up off the floor, and man up!!! :eek:

[gannam]

You two are the biggest forum trolls on this site. The rest of us are actually out there playing. I have won tournaments with nids, but it required a boatload of luck, and some very bad moves by the opponent.

Part of being a competitor means understanding what the trends are and maximizing your opportunities.

A great player can win "some" of the time with nids. An average player can win often with IG, BA, and SW.

I don't think that there is any debate in the community regarding that.

[Melissia]

[some idiocy edited out]

Part of being a competitor means understanding what the trends are and maximizing your opportunities.

A great player can win "some" of the time with nids. An average player can win often with IG, BA, and SW.

I don't think that there is any debate in the community regarding that.A REAL competitive gamer will work out a way to win with any army.

[Angelofblades]

you plan ahead a little bit more.

1) Tyrant offers +1 to reserver rolls.
2) the Mawloc can start on the board and Burrow, auto come-in the next turn.

It doesn't take very many pods to make this work-- pods take up a lot of space, and have to Drop Pod scatter rules-- When pulling a maneuver like this off, the pods are reliable, I do it all the time with Marines. The pods almost never scatter, there's no room for them to scatter. The Mawloc can scatter, unless it is terrible, it won't matter much.

~700 points of an army-- Which 50% (1850 points) deep striking in an army is not uncommon. Couple of guants +pods and Mawloc. Very easily not basing the army around the idea. The advantage is that you can be flexible-- respond to your opponent's deployment.


In no way am I suggesting taking 3 Mawlocs. This is just a tactic. You do not design your army around a tactic, you design your tactics around your army. The Mawloc, like a Trygon, has diminishing returns after taking 1-- it is better to take one, and leave open the possibility of flexibility.

Did you not understand the implications of letting a podding Tyranid player go first, and the opponent go second, full reserves? Then you want to throw in the +1 reserve roll Tyrant and start the Mawloc on the board on turn 1??! I'm sorry, but you're just not thinking far ahead here.

Reserves, as you should know, don't start getting rolled for until Turn 2. If the tyranid player starts first, this means that the Tyranids all end up showing up at the top of the turn, with nothing to fight against, hell the Mawloc pop out and goes "SURPRISE!" with no one to surprise. That is what it means to go second, full reserve. Then, when it's the opponent's turn, he rolls for his stuff, typically, half the army appears and is able to move, shoot and possibly assault anything that got too close. Typically, if the Tyranid player is relying on those Mawlocs, well ,they get shot the hell up, with no defense, because they can't exit the turn they arrive. It isn't hard to kdraw 6 wounds out of one model if you focus fire, especially when you get to pick and choose where you come from, along your board edge. For example, I run Flesh Tearers (BA), very mechanized, with the great ability to be played as a Turn 2 full reserve army. There's no way a Tyranid list can use Mawlocs or DS'ing units effectively against me, even more so with the FAQ.




Then you take all the objectives, or best defensive positions, first turn. That makes you a horrible obstacle to move.

No plan is fool proof, but it helps if your not the fool. (meant this generally, no offence)

That's the trap. Take the defensive position, give vindicators a target to fire at, create a battle line to give assault unit to focus and hit. That the problem with Tyranids, they play offensively, not defensively, they're not IG. It's a medium range assault army at it's very core. Notice much long range? Warp Lance is 18" for a reason, Hive Guard wield 24" ranged weapons for a reason. Everything in the Tyranid codex points towards a medium ranged assault army and you want to play it defensively? Talk about being made to play to your weakness.

Who needs to push tyranids off an objective, when you can last turn contest? All you have to do is take one, contest the rest, it's really not that hard.


A REAL competitive gamer will work out a way to win with any army.


I'd love to hear your thoughts on applying this to Necrons, a DH army or Non-Death Raven DA army.

It's one thing to be a competitive gamer, it's another to be using a severly handicapped army.

[Tynskel]

Uh... I said, plan ahead.
Which means, do not design your army around a tactic, design your tactics around your army.

50% of your army in reserves is not uncommon in 40k.

If your opponent fully reserves, and you aka tyranid player, have first turn, you can control when the Mawloc enters the game. Nevermind your pods. You can have the Mawloc start on the board, burrow on turn 2, and enter automatically turn 3. Your opponent cannot stop this, because they cannot get any shots in unless they have an ability to enter the game earlier than turn 2. The nice thing about 20 man squads of gaunts is that if they are in cover, they take a while to kill. it will be easy to position them close to your opponent's board edge and not worry about them dying off. There is a lot of flexibility in an army that has 50% to reserves.


Blah blah Blah. You can use your head, not some tricks, is what I am saying. Understand how the army works.



Now that I think about---- I take offense for gannam's comment that Buffo n' Melissa are the biggest trolls.

Damnity, I am the biggest troll on this forum!

RoaR!

[gannam]

Now that I think about---- I take offense for gannam's comment that Buffo n' Melissa are the biggest trolls.

Damnity, I am the biggest troll on this forum!

RoaR!

Melissa's posts: 3184
Buffo's posts: 1320
Tynskel's posts: 1024

You'd both better get to work, cause Melissa obviously has no job, or a damn good one.

[Melissia]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on applying this to [...] a DH army
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

Wasn't me, but it certainly shows a good application of it.

[Angelofblades]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

Wasn't me, but it certainly shows a good application of it.

Umm,, but those aren't your thoughts...

Additionaly, that Tactica is 3 years old, 5th ed has been out since 2008. Clearly, that tactica is outdated, of which, the OP himself states that the post is clearly out of date and not in line with the current rules of 5th ed.

So you reference an outdated tactica, for an outdated army as a response on how to play it competitively in this edition...


Nice.

[gannam]

Look, I understand both Buffo's and Mellisa's points that you can overcome any obstacle, but why should you?

I want to win, and I am going to take the path of least resistance to get there. I will dust off my nids in 6th edition and see how they fare.

[Melissia]

but why should you?

Because you like the army.

[Renegade]

It really says something when your choosing an army just on how easy it is to win with.
If your going WAAC then I hope to never have to play against you, as your one of the people I have no sympathy for and hope whatever army you choose GW nurf it, even if I play it to!

[thelonegrif]

If your just looking for easy wins your playing the wrong game dude. Don't look at it as a handicap look at it as a new challenge for you to overcome. Every army in this game has its shortcomings you should probably take the time to torrent in PDFs of the codices you don't have and learn them. Or if you prefer the legal way buy them.

[DarkLink]

Melissa's posts: 3184
Buffo's posts: 1320
Tynskel's posts: 1024

You'd both better get to work, cause Melissa obviously has no job, or a damn good one.

Or she's a college student. You have to do something completely mindless to kill time when you're not in class to give your brain a break. Posting on internet forums definitely qualifies.

[Melissia]

Seeing as it certainly doesn't use any brainpower to argue with these guys.

Not compared to biochem, calculus, C#, and so on.

[Tynskel]

Look, I understand both Buffo's and Mellisa's points that you can overcome any obstacle, but why should you?

I want to win, and I am going to take the path of least resistance to get there. I will dust off my nids in 6th edition and see how they fare.

Hmmmmm....


want to win.

Ya know, this is a challenging game, however, there are flaws. One, it is based on a D6. The dice gods can just hate you sometimes.

A better game to play, if you want to WIN all the time, would be Magic. Hell, you can make a living playing Magic.



I went through a phase of winning--- I was undefeated in my area for almost a full year. Played every weekend. Been there, done that. Not so great.

What's the best thing about warhammer?

Scenarios, story telling, and making models. Winning is such a minor part of the entire HOBBY-game.

[the jeske]

Scenarios, story telling, and making models. Winning is such a minor part of the entire HOBBY-game.
dont know been gaming for more then 25 years now . always played to win , I think I can count the number of people with story armies on two hands I ever played against and I played through whole europe .

I played a NM water warrior build [well played everything NM , but it was what worked best] till IG and SW/BA came out. after that it didnt make sense to play them army. 0 chance to win and am not playing 2 dps/pm/zerker/oblit unless am forced to do it by my team. Same with nids . 5th started , dex build around MC [elite and FA choice] true LoS kills the army as a viable one. new dex cames out . testing the living hell out of it . I wanted to play something that is not space marines [and I always liked nids] , non of the builds measure up to what SW or IG can do . Am not going to play for 4-5 years getting my *** handed to me [but then again we have to pay for the tables we play on so I probably have a different perspective here] , by even more armies each new dex . no thank you.
SM can adapt , I can see that , lots of flexabilty in the list and it doesnt realy matter with counts as in full effact if you play ultra khan or ultra vulkan . I cant counts as nids with anything[without carring a whole box of models , when my opponents tell me to replace stuff to check LoS] . I could play IG , but we already have 2 IG in our team and the chance of a mirror match would be too big.



Which means, do not design your army around a tactic, design your tactics around your army.
that is interesting . because the top tier IG and SW builds play the game the other way .
nids can play breeder[doesnt work, because of the way the codex made nids suck in hth] can try shoty[doesnt work , as they have problems with shoting against even non shoty builds] or they can try something in between . all those armies have huge problems with anti tank and a transport poping and the way now they can do nothing about psychic powers it puts them at even a bigger disadventage against the top builds.
Or do you mean tailoring armies to opponents? because we dont do that we play always with the same tournament builds , tailoring makes little sense as no army can out tailor IG .



A REAL competitive gamer will work out a way to win with any army.
only the chance to win with nids is drasticly lower then a chance to win with SW or IG or normal sm.



Nid player in Central Florida got first place in the 'Ard Boyz semi round. He ran next to no monstrous creatures and mainly ran Gargoyles. Second was Double Lash Chaos and Third was IG Mech.

Take your skirt off, pick your balls up off the floor, and man up!!!
welcome to main land europe where games are played at 1.5 and not 2.5 like ard Boyz . try playing a succesful breeder or pure swarm against IG or SW at 1.5 without nefing your abilty to play against skimers builds or normal meq.

[Tynskel]

So,

Since this is wonderfully on topic?

What's up with the Tyranid Prime not being able to fit into the pods... not even with their same type.....

[DarkLink]

Especially considering that carnifex's can fit in a spore, I'd imagine a prime should be able to.

[Nabterayl]

Gotta admit, I just don't understand the primes-in-spores answer. I see nothing in the codex to suggest that there's even a question to answer.

[sebi81]

a fluffy reason for this may be, that the spores are not something like a vehicle the tyranids enter on their bioships to fly in them to the ground. as far as i understand the spores are the "egg" the tyranids are born in and directly get popped out of the ships. so it makes sense that no IC can enter the spore.

[Renegade]

Well I think The Jesk may change his mind that a good list can't be built. (no putting it on the webs unless you change it to how you plan to use it!)

[the jeske]

its 1850 . nearest 1850 tournaments are played in germany two in moscow , a few in Poland and czech rep but they have bad prize support so not realy worth driving there. But thanks anyway.

[Renegade]

its 1850 Switch out the Venom cannot for something called a "Strangle thorn"? and one 'thrope brood for 'gaunts of some kind for 1500 points. Though that could be something that is only effective in the local meta game.

[Xas]

the problem with nids, winning, WAAC and likeing the army lies in a core concept of the army:

(allmost) no ranged anti-tank and very vulnerabel (compared to their points costs) melee anti-tank.


The last codex balanced this out by haveing the innert ability to allmost ignore any AT weapons the enemy paid expensive points for. with that "headstart" you could either swarm up so far that enemy heavy tanks couldnt do any real damage to your overal strategy and/or buy more of your ineffective (compared to points cost) but resilent anti-tank platforms. back then your main problems were transports as you had zero weapons that were cost-effective against cheapo rhinos and chimaeras.

With the new dex the transport problem has been fixed. Hiveguard destroy anything AV12 or below as brutal as possible at a healthy distance. Ranged anti-tank got more effective but more vulnerable (compared to points cost) basically reverting the issue of the last dex. at same time nids (as the only infantry-only based army in all of 40k!) lost the feat that anti-tank weapons are next to useless thanks to instant death and the fact that all your anti-vehicle weapons have an innert weakness against anti-vehicle weapons themselfes (zoans get ID, hiveguard get their t6 made useless, t-fex get both their t6 and expensive 2+ save made useless).

the key poblem is that all the reliable stuff is sitting in the elites section and squad maximums are very limited (enough to get the job done but not enough to make them resilent enough).


all of this means that nids still can win (and their brutal efficiency against non-vehicles mean that if you can open the cans you already won) and are far from bad. in my eyes the E5 nid codex is one of the best dexes out there and total dominance is only prohibited by the current metagame of mecha. it somehow is what the eldar are supposed to be: deadly in the hands of a mastermind but powerless in the hand of a fool. I'd go so far as to say that in a vacuum no-holds environment only a few dexes (Eldar and IG mostly, definatelly no MEQ dex) could compete against them if both the list and the player AND the synergy between player and list were of top tier.

BUT this mirror-edge gameplay is not what I see as "fun". At first it means you must not make any mistakes starting with list building and ending after the end of turn 7. This is an issue that doesnt have to be an issue if you like to strife for perfection and like to push yourself.
The issue that is the more important one is that your oponent will definatelly not have fun. 80-90% of your game will be to make all his plans fail. starting from busting his transports before they can do their job, layer-screening your army so in the end your monsters get a cover save from something as low as a gaunt or a ripper, makeing shure his s8 weapons cannot do much harm to your heavy infantry (the bane of meltaguns is their 12" range and more so the "imagined" 6" effective range that many players have burnt into their minds) and preventing maneuvring in general to supress last-turn grabs and what not.

If you are both a mastermind and still dont care for your oponent's fun Nids will make you happy.

I rather play IG or SM, have the levity to stuff a meltagun in allmost any squad I want and therefore can loose many of them without worrying. In return I know that only my vehicles (and maybe terminators and heros who are stupid enough to run around alone) have to fear hostile meltaguns.

As a Nid player I think the doom was a bad idea from day one. SitW should affect psykers in transports and you should be allowed to dedicate one unit per trygon to stay in reserve to come the turn after him from his tunnel instead of the current rules but sadly I'm no GW designer so all I can do is talk to my pals and make stuff clear before the game. In that aspect GW did a great job with the DOOM as I can get much appreciationf or my houserules if I promise not to use that lil bugger :)