ICs and Infiltrate

[Paradox]

Hi,

Simple question, but likely to be a matter of interpretation for the answer.

If I deploy an IC by themself in my deployment area, and then deploy an infiltrating unit at the approprate time, can I choose the deploy the infiltrating squad such they are in coherency with my IC for them to start the game as a single entity?

I ask this question as the exact wording in question in the IC section the rulebook states:

Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

The wording I question is the 'being deployed'. Is this depoyed a state after all units being deployed are all on the table (which would be a yes for the above) or is it a timing issue, in which case an IC could only be placed in coherency (pre-game) with a unit already deployed prior to the IC during the deployment.

I'd prefer the less restricted (first) interpretation, but was just curious if there is a specific following of this or not, as in the end, i'd just like to know what I can and can't do.

Cheers

[Erasmus of Baal]

If you start the Infiltrators squad with an IC that does not have Infiltrate, then they are not allowed to Infiltrate and deploy normally. (It's kinda weird how they phrase it in the rulebook with the little asterisks, but it makes sense after one or two read-throughs.)

As far as the deployment thing, deployment (as I have always understood it) is the state of the unit as soon as it is on the table--either before the first turn or as soon as it comes on as Reserves. As such, no. It would not be a difficult thing, however, to have the IC join the Infiltrators during the first turn; however, the IC would have to start the first turn more than 2" away from the infiltrating unit (again, not difficult).

[Culven]

Since the rules actually state that the IC would start the game already with the unit, this implies that the IC is not actually part of the unit until the game begins, which would mean that the unit wouldn't lose Infiltrate. However, this is in direct conflict with the IC rules where it refers to an IC joining a Unit where only one of them has Infiltrate and would prevent the combined unit from infiltrating. I think that most players prefer to house-rule the situation such that ICs actually join unit proir to being Deployed. This allows Shrike to join a unit and grant Infiltrate to them, but it also means that an IC would need to join the unit before deploying if the player wants them to be part of the unit when the game starts, but doing so would prevent them from using Infiltrate unless both have the USR. Otherwise, the IC would need to stay over 2" away from the unit until it can move into coherency and join them.

This is really something that players need to address and decide if and how they want to consistantly apply house rules.

[Renegade]

As you have deployed one before the other (well placed on the table), I can see it working fine like that. It depends on the other player, discuss before the game maybe.

I would allow it, but thats just me.

[Melissia]

I'd allow it as well. You're not actually deploying the two at the same time, they're just incidently deploying together.

Think of it this way: a captain tells his Scout Marines to hide in a certain location to monitor enemy movements, and the scouts report in that the enemy's approaching. The captain moves up along with his forces, and joins the scouts so that they can assault the enemy position before combat begins.

There, now you have a fluff justification as well as rules justification.

[thelonegrif]

Talked to my local TO back in mass and a german shop owner both said only if the IC has infiltrate himself other wise no

[Melissia]

Yes, but nobody cares what TOs think unless they're unfortunate enough to play in their tournies. I don't :P

[Paradox]

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. I think some of you got what I meant, while others got confused by the infiltrate issue.

I'm not asking about how the infiltrate USR works with ICs joining. I think that fairly clear, and I have seen discussions on Shrike.

Just to clarify, my question is based on the IC already on the table (in his own legal zone) and then just prior to beginning the game I have a unit of infiltrators (which for this example, could almost go anywhere, say I'm playing daemons). If I so choose to place them, can I just choose to place them near the IC to form a unit prior to first turn.

For all intents and purposes, this example could just as easily be my IC has already on table, and I'm deploying my next infantry unit. Can they be depolyed in coherency with the IC, as he's already been deployed, which brings to question the "being deployed" terminology in the IC joining rules; is it state at the end of all pre-game deployment or is it the timing involved (my first post probably has a better speel on the terminology).

Cheers

[Nabterayl]

I'm with Mel and Renegade. If at the end of the deployment phase an IC happens to be in coherency with an infantry unit, however they got there, the IC must join before the start of the first game turn.

[Culven]

Thanks for the responses. I think some of you got what I meant, while others got confused by the infiltrate issue.
Just to clarify, my question is based on the IC already on the table (in his own legal zone) and then just prior to beginning the game I have a unit of infiltrators (which for this example, could almost go anywhere, say I'm playing daemons). If I so choose to place them, can I just choose to place them near the IC to form a unit prior to first turn.
I understood, but the Infiltrate issue could come into play. The problem is when the IC becomes part of the unit. If you play that the IC joins at the start of the first turn, then there is no problem, unless someone is also trying to use Shrike to grant Infiltrate to a unit that he would need to join before the first turn. The players need to be consistant with when they decide ICs placed during Deploy Forces actually join units. Also, the IC rule about an IC joining a Unit with Infiltrate and the unit losing Infiltrate needs the Shrike-joining logic to make sense instead of the "begin the game already joined" logic. It is an issue of consistancy. If the players allow Shrike to work (i.e. ICs join before hitting the table), then you would need to have the IC join the Infiltrating unit before either is deployed, which would cause the unit to lose Infiltrate. If the players decide that ICs aren't part of the unit until the start of the first turn, then your idea should work since the IC wouldn't join the unit until after the unit deploys as infiltrators, but something like Shrike would no longer work. There is a third option, which is to ignore consistancy and play however the players agree. Personally, I prefer consistant rules.

For all intents and purposes, this example could just as easily be my IC has already on table, and I'm deploying my next infantry unit.
The difference is that during normal Deployment during "Deploy Forces", the units are deployed simultaneously, regardless of the order in which they are placed on the table. The same is true for the units placed when Deploying infiltrators. However, your question was in regard to Deploying a unit which relies upon Infiltrate to be placed at that time and possibly in that particular location, which the unit would lose if the IC were allowed to join the unit before the first turn. So, while this would work for the situation you present, it may cause issues with other units where the player may need/want to have the IC join before the first turn, which gets us back to the examples of Shrike and an IC joining a unit with Infiltrate and the need for the players to define how they want to handle the timing of ICs joining.

[Paradox]

Thanks Culven,

I do agree with your expanded explanation.

Even though the IC would not have left the deployment zone, the fact you have a joined unit that has some potential to be outside the zone after creating a unit would be unfair.

My initial question was just based on deciding that "no, this combat squad (sorry, marine player) would be better in my deployment zone after all", with the mind set that the "infiltrating squad" would be inside my own deployment zone.

But you point out very well how this could be used in this different way, and how it would give an advantage which would be unfair, ie a independent character joined unit which would have gotten some sort of benifit of infiltration (albeit small) while staring with a IC that should have stopped it infiltrating in the first instance.

Thanks for the pointer.

Cheers to all who wrote to the thread.