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Torcano

06-28-2010, 08:05 AM

So, the way this will work ideally is that we all put our heads together and come up with a fair, balanced formation.

In reality, I will take your opinions and make a hideously unbalanced formation. ;)

Anyways, I actually would love to have a balanced Harlequin formation. To this end, we WILL make one. Also, props to Buffo for inspiring this project.

To start off, my initial idea is thus: the most important part(s) of this formation are also the coolest: the Great Harlequin and Solitaire. The formation will be called "Harlequin Troupe", and represents one of the deadliest forces in the universe. These two characters will also have to have rules created (well, resurrected), and I am thinking that the main benefit of the Formation would be access to them.

I am going to continually update this post with our rules as they progress, as well as posting the update at the end of the thread for convenience. Hopefully, people are cooperative and this doesn't attract trolls.

Feel free to give any idea you may have, from the name of the formation to..well anything.

Current Rules

Harlequin War Troupe

Requirements:

X+ Harlequin Troupes

Special Rules:

Lordgimpet

06-28-2010, 08:29 AM

hehe Ive been thinking of a similar idea, as I have about 60 harlequins on foot plus 10 on jetbikes
with the intent on using in Apoc

I have Gav Thorpes 3rd ed beta floating around when I find it or if some one beats me to it I can post the solitare and great harlequin stats he came up with

for a special rule I was bouncing in my head was if every squad included a shadow seer thier Veil of tiers could combine to do something bigger call it say for lack of time Prismatic overload which aside from the normal Veil of Tears, forces the oponent to re-roll any to hit rolls he makes with his/her units that are within 24 of any of the units in the formation they don't have to be targeting the formation even. negating any benifits like twin linked etc to boot.

lol probably sounds a little weak but it gets the ball rolling

another one I was toying with was making them deep strike, but have a rule like skyleap where then can warp out at any time to re appear some where else on the next turn but roll a D6 each time they come back and on a 1 one of the units decides not to come back (such is their fickle nature) but don't count as a casulty

also we could add jetbike upgrades as a unit option also

Torcano

06-28-2010, 12:43 PM

Yeah that Veil of Tears idea is the sort of thing I envision too. Yours is an interesting concept and is something we could definately build on. It made me think about Veil of Tears being a base ability more directly, and my immediate thought was something like: for 1 turn all enemies(non-eldar? non-harlequins?) must use the Night Fighting (I forget, is VoT the exact same?) rules.

Anyway I didn't fully understand what you meant, do you mean hits on allied units within 24"? Or enemies shooting from within 24" of any part of the formation must reroll hits? I think only the former makes sense, as the normal Veil is negated once inside its range and it doesn't seem fair to take away its weakness.

--

Another focus of mine is coming up with a special ability to represent the combined power of the Death Jesters in a similar fashion. My initial ideas for this are some sort of combined ranged attack (WM players have a laugh) and/or a fear/morale based ability.

---

I think for this formation to really be worthwhile at all players must have a model to represent both the Solitaire and Great Harlequin. As custom characters their cost would be a part of the formation cost, rather then added as models. Of course this formation will have a cost more like a Super-heavy/Gargantuan combined with a formation. That is depending on if the stats we make for those 2 characters warrant a similar points cost.

For the characters it would seem apt to have two very different roles. I feel it makes sense that the Solitaire is a lone death-dealing machine (think Mephiston^10), with suitably crazy stats to have an visible impact on an Apoc. game with Titans and such. The Great Harlequin then would be more of a support character, having several passive buffs and possibly active buffs (i.e. used once per game, lasts one turn). He could also be the source-point for a Formation SR or two, with his death causing loss of one or several abilities or SRs, or possibly even dissolving the formation.

Thoughts/Questions/Comments/Ideas?

Silver Drakes Legion

06-28-2010, 03:49 PM

Harlequins have always been my favorite fluff since I started 40k.

I think a cool rule would be Masters of the Webway say instead of outflanking have 4 or 6 different Eldar gate shaped objects scattered around the map. Make placing the "gates" similar to a Deepstrike without mishaps and has to be on the board before the game (so you can't place them exactly next to an objective) and can scatter 2D6 from each place you wanted to place them. Make it so you cannot place any two gates within 36" of each other.
Roll a D6 to decide which gate they appear at. They deploy like coming from a table edge only Vyper sized vehicles can come through the gates. Say a 1 opponent decides where to place, 2-5 are wherever you # the gates, and 6 you decide. The rolling to see gives a randomness making it not broken but still good.

Maybe a kill point that counts for three if achieved.
Like "Whim of the Laughing God" randomly choose an opponents character he possesses a powerful Eldar artifact crystal telling where hidden gates of the Webway are in the galaxy that are to close for comfort to the Black Library in the complicated Webway. He must be killed before the end of the battle and never have the chance to realize the potential within. A troop master or higher rank must then bring the crystal back to a Webway portal for safe keeping to get the objective points

Lordgimpet

06-29-2010, 04:15 AM

Torcano

07-09-2010, 03:06 PM

Firstly, I am changing the name of the formation to include Masque, the name of a multi-Troupe Harlequin unit.

Well, to be honest Lordgimpet I think those stats will only be a rough base point at best. Compared to 5th edition powerhouse -think Mephiston- they simply don't match up. Now add some special rules and the like and that is what we are looking for.

In essence, I both characters to have a visible impact on an Apoc game, and be the focal point of come cinematic confrontations. Based on the little we have so far, I think the main features of this formation should be:

1) the 'Masters of the Webway' ability - in some fashion allowing the formation to be held in a special individual reserve, and deployed as a whole precisely at the time of players' choosing.

This is one part of Harlequins that is prevalent in the fluff, and is easy to represent in 40k. However, personally I'd prefer if it IS linked to pre-deployed "Webway Gates" that may be destroyed by the enemy. The owning player always chooses which and places them pre-battle, but the enemy may eliminate some altogether.

Also, since a player might be controlling onlythis formation, this rule must be completely optional. Perhaps a possibility would be: if not held in Reserve, the entire formation may have enhanced versions of outflanking/Scouts.

2) Great Harlequin as nexus of formation-wide buffs - the GH will be the source of several buffs for the entire Masque, meaning if he is slain they will lose them. To complement this, rather than being a killing-machine, the GH's stats will be more defensive in nature (although able to match up against most foes)

My initial thoughts for buffs include the following:
-Leadership/morale enhancement (i.e. Stubborn, Fearless, etc)
-stats buff (probably WS, A, S, or T- the latter two representing the GH's inspiration fueling power/resilience. Altho
-FNP, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, or other Special Rule

3) Solitaire as the killing machine - since the Soli is now going to be only seen in Apocalypse, he will need to be suitably insanely powerly. I would not be satisfied unless he is capable of taking down the craziest 40k as to offer, hopefully even Titans in the right situation. Also *Remember*: The Solitaire technically is not a member of the Masque/Troupe, and fights completely independently. (Well, I imagine most people will field him alongside the formation or in/around it in any case)

Initial stats (yes, I made the most ridiculous stats I could think of. Hey, i am bored at work)

WS: 10 BS: 8 S: 6(10) T: 6(8) W: 5 I: 10 A: 6 Ld: n/a Sv: 2+(INV)

Wargear: Wraithswords (dual), Garb of Slaanesh, Flip-Belt, Vibro Triskele,

Wraithswords: These mythic weapons are stored in a respoitory in the Black Library, and their number is less than 20 pairs. They are always wielded in pairs. Microseconds before the blade strikes a target, its length is consumed in a line of pure warp energy, cutting through void shields even with ease. Wraithswords always strike at: S10 against infantry, Destructor against vehicles. They ignore all saves and enemy non-character infantry are removed from play if wounded.

Garb of Slaanesh: The black garb of a Solitaire is used to perform the role of Slaanesh, and has none of the refractive qualities of the normal holo-suits. It is unknown for sure how, but legend tells how the Laughing God managed to flay the back of Slaanesh, and from it made the first Garb. Ever since, the halllowed robes have blessed their wearer's with a near impenetrable holy (unholy?) ward. Grants a 2+ Inv save and +2 Toughness.

Flip-Belt: Same as regular Harlequin device. However, the Solitaire is infused with powers beyond any other Eldar, without the Belt one could still perform much of the same acrobatics. As such, a Solitaire makes much more effective and efficient use of their's. Grants +2" to movement. Ignores all terrain except Impassable. Grants Hit & Run special rule.

Vibro Triskele: *in progress*

Special Rules: Solitaire, Void Soul, Fleet,

Solitaire: may never join a unit under any circumstances nor be joined by any unit (including boarding a transport), may assault 12" instead of 6", never affected by instant death or similar abilities

Void Soul: Never takes Ld tests, unaffected by psychic powers, psykers unable to use powers when within 18", enemies within 18" are -2 Ld.

Blinding Speed: Always strikes in initiative order. At end of enemy Movement phase, if unengaged the Solitaire may make a free 6" move. At end of either assault phase, for every enemy in base contact the Solitaire may attack them once (on top of regular attacks).

Blitz: The Solitaire's primary form of attack is a devastating charge at breakneck speed through enemy ranks. You may choose to use this ability when you declare your assault (choose first).
-for every inch over 6" (but less than 12") that the Solitaire charges an attack is gained in the assault
-if the assault is won and the combat is disengaged for any reason (enemy unit destroyed for example), the Solitaire may elect to continue the Blitz and assault *one* more enemy unit within 6".

Lordgimpet

07-10-2010, 10:26 AM

good idea on the name.
those are 3rd ed beta, i put them there as a starter to give us a ballpark to work from nothing more
yes mepheston stats are quite high he has some drawbacks that can make him die easly which is a trade off to high stats. staying on topic though when i get time ill add the wargear list also and it has some neat thing like rime blades and tanglefoot grenades. but im going to go through your ideas and chew over it abit and get back to ya

Lordgimpet

07-18-2010, 11:54 PM

Ok having time to read this and think it over some and add more input
ill get my negative part done first, My interpretation of apoc formations are aside from super heavies and aircraft and other large units unsuitable for regular 40K, are unit formations that are historical ones from campaigns, or represent larger deployment units a particular race will employ in larger campaigns. So I tend to keep that in mind when developing custom rules etc making sure they fit with lore/theme and play style of what im making it for, but that is just me as anyone can just give a guy 10 to all stats and make him immune to everything and can kill on a 2+. I know that not what your doing but I hope you understand where im coming from.

Ok moving on

1) the 'Masters of the Webway' ability - in some fashion allowing the formation to be held in a special individual reserve, and deployed as a whole precisely at the time of players' choosing.

This is one part of Harlequins that is prevalent in the fluff, and is easy to represent in 40k. However, personally I'd prefer if it IS linked to pre-deployed "Webway Gates" that may be destroyed by the enemy. The owning player always chooses which and places them pre-battle, but the enemy may eliminate some altogether.

Also, since a player might be controlling only this formation, this rule must be completely optional. Perhaps a possibility would be: if not held in Reserve, the entire formation may have enhanced versions of outflanking/Scouts.

A suggestion could be to use Mimes give these close to the same deployment rules as dark eldar mandrakes eg X number of mime models are individually placed anywhere on the battle field no closer than 12 of an enemy unit, cannot be targeted or harmed nor can they attack but can move the normal 6, in essence it just represents where the mime could be. In subsequent turns the controlling player can deep strike any number of harlequins units within 6 of the Mime no rolls needed or can remove any number of harlequin units within 6 placing back into reserve if doing so removes the mime model that was used but can harlequins units can re enter from another mime the following turn. once mimes are removed they are out of the game.

fluff wise Mimes are harlequins scouts and assassins and are the first to arrive before the rest of the troupe. eldar are also hand picked by the solitaire to become mimes.

2) Great Harlequin as nexus of formation-wide buffs - the GH will be the source of several buffs for the entire Masque, meaning if he is slain they will lose them. To complement this, rather than being a killing-machine, the GH's stats will be more defensive in nature (although able to match up against most foes)

My initial thoughts for buffs include the following:
-Leadership/morale enhancement (i.e. Stubborn, Fearless, etc)
-stats buff (probably WS, A, S, or T- the latter two representing the GH's inspiration fuelling power/resilience. Altho
-FNP, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, or other Special Rule

This one still has me scratching my head, fluff-wise the GH is just the troupe leader often called the troupe master, great harlequins or high avatar. that being said we could assume that the troupe leader in each unit decide which one of them is the formation leader thus the GH. but stat wise in theory he is no better than a standard troupe leader.
a formation buff is a good idea that is lost should he fall.
some ideas for this I thought of could be, Dispersed formation: coherency is increased to 4 while the GH is alive. and or dance of death: when a Harlequin unit takes casualties from shooting or close combat the controlling player can not only remove models from the affected unit but may also substitute the casualties from any of the units in the formation within 6 of the effected unit.
example. say unit A is in CC and unit B is unengaged nearby and unit A takes 5 casualties your could remove 5 models from unit A or 5 from B or a mix of both. another option to this is only casualties removed on the targeted unit count towards calculating the winner of the combat.
perhaps that while the GH is alive the formation gains preferred enemy
or negates units gaining the benefit of furious charge and counter attack against formation units

these all could be represented as the harlequins dancing about and with their holosuits the enemy is though aware to have hit something has the impression his attacks are meaningless or to that effect.

3) Solitaire as the killing machine - since the Soli is now going to be only seen in Apocalypse, he will need to be suitably insanely powerly. I would not be satisfied unless he is capable of taking down the craziest 40k as to offer, hopefully even Titans in the right situation. Also *Remember*: The Solitaire technically is not a member of the Masque/Troupe, and fights completely independently. (Well, I imagine most people will field him alongside the formation or in/around it in any case)

Initial stats (yes, I made the most ridiculous stats I could think of. Hey, I am bored at work)
WS: 10 BS: 8 S: 6(10) T: 6(8) W: 5 I: 10 A: 6 Ld: n/a Sv: 2+(INV)
Wargear: Wraithswords (dual), Garb of Slaanesh, Flip-Belt, Vibro Triskele,

hmm ok I think having the solitaire this broken and over the top is not needed and any smart opponent would refuse you to use the formation. as far as powerful individuals go, I think what they released of Angron would be about the limit as far as stats. and he was a primarch blessed with demonhood even still has a retinue of up to 12 blood Thirsters the thought of a lone space elf clown and giving him a severe backhand is a little much IMHO, stats don't need to be high to be powerful. Mepheston is just shock and awe, most players have issues with him as they fail their own morale checks before the game starts as they stress on how to deal with him or what he could do to their force and in a apoc. game with so much D weapons and large blasts going around Meph wont stand a chance, even in regular games he dies more than you think, it comes down to how he is used just like every other unit in the game. anyway back on topic.

ok wraith swords I don't see the point of giving him str of 6 if these weapons increase it to 10 again
is a little extreme in they way they do damage to I feel. an alternative could be.

Riveblades
Fitted to the back of the hand or worn as a glove, a Riveblade is covered in a shimmering energy field which can punch through the thickest armour. In the hands of a Solitaire a set of Riveblades can be used to behead or disembowel the target
with a single sweep. A Solitaire with Riveblades ignores normal armour saves in an assault. There is an additional effect against target’s with multiple wounds. If such a model is wounded with a roll of a 6 the Riveblades have penetrated deep into their body and they are killed outright (unless the model has an invulnerable saving throw which is passed). basically pair power weapons with the rending rule
Neuro-disruptor
A neuro-disruptor uses intricate psycho crystalline circuitry to emit a wave of particles that disrupt the brain’s neural pathways, turning the target into a drooling imbecile or killing them outright. The Neuro-disruptor uses the flame template and is fired like any other flame weapon. However, do not roll to wound as normal. The neuro-disruptor has a Strength of 8, but rather than using the targets’ Toughness values, their Leadership is used. Other than this, the To Wound chart is used as normal. For example, a Leadership 9 model is wounded on a 5+. A roll of a 1 always fails to inflict a wound. If a Neuro-disruptor template touches a vehicle, roll a D3 on the vehicle damage table as the crew’s brains are partially protected by the vehicle’s armour (there is no need for an armour penetration roll). The Neuro-disruptor has the following profile: Rng: Flame S: (8) AP: 1 Assault 1

Instead of flipbelts maybe a skill like 3rd ed banshees had acrobatic.
at the start of each round the solitaire is in CC he can be repositioned to be in base to base with any model involved in the combat. handy for getting close to those IC and onto preferred targets.

Solitaire: may never join a unit under any circumstances nor be joined by any unit (including boarding a transport), may assault 12" instead of 6", never affected by instant death or similar abilities
this is not needed at all just don't make him an IC so thus he is a unit on his own like Meph, also you gave a high Toughness but then make him immune to instant death. personally I feel like all eldar in keeping his toughness to 3 as this is a base weakness the race has as a whole.

voidsoul im happy with if you drop the part where psykers can use powers within 18 as he is not a culexus assassin (or however its spelled) also dropping the -2 leadership from here and applying it elsewhere.

I'd drop blinding speed and blitz and keep it as per the one I posted previously to keep it simple and neat
your suggestions can make a CC round drag out way to long should the dice and model placement be favourable and apoc. game is long enough as it is just give him grenades to deal with the initiative problem.

Garb of slaanesh: this seems like a item for a named solitaire rather than regular ones as there are more than one Solitaire in the universe. to keep it in theme try using
A domino field, or D-field as it is commonly known, creates an even more
complex distortion pattern than a normal Harlequin holo-suit, shattering the wearer’s image into a cloud of blindingly bright shards of multi-coloured light. A model wearing a D-field gets a 4+ cover save, just like a holo-suit. In addition, any
enemy attacking the model in close combat always needs a roll of a six to hit, regardless of the models’ comparative weapon skills. If the enemy has a fixed to hit roll which is not affected by Weapon Skill (Khârn the Betrayer, for example) then roll a D6. On a roll of 1-3 they are affected by the d-field and need sixes, on a 4-6 they are unaffected and use their normal to hit roll.

Dread Mask
The Dread mask contains a psychic pickup which detects the worst fears of the
wearer’s opponent and amplifies them ten-fold, sending them running in terror.
Any unit losing an assault against a Solitaire with a Dread mask must take
their morale check on 1D6 more than usual (normally 3D6 instead of 2D6).
Obviously the Dread mask has no effect against units which do not have to take
morale checks. in addition any enemy within 12 of the solitaire suffers -2 to leadership

with the combination of wargear and skills the Sloitaire need not have uber stats and still be a solid force
either way its coming together slowly

Torcano

07-22-2010, 12:56 PM

Ok well to start off, I should have been a bit more clear I think on exactly what I intended. I just sort of typed up the stats/abilities/etc based on purely my initial thoughts. Rather than actually trying to make the rules balanced or anything like that, I was purely brainstorming. There is no point in even considering the balance of various things this early before any plans have been made, in my opinion at least.

Anyways I just want to be sure you know I'm not an utter fool, as it might appear if these ideas were something my refined, finished product. ;)

---

1) Love your idea about Mimes, and its funny after my last post I was researching and realized I had completely forgotten to mention them! To be sure, you mean that basically the X number of Mimes are basically DS points that can move and allow "perfect" deep striking (and reserving).

But now that you mention them being assassins, I have another idea. How about you can choose to activate any one, during any movement phase. Then you may select any enemy HQ model within X inches for an "assassination" attempt.

Not sure on what that would be exactly, but I envision some sort of Roll-off/test or perhaps a sort of Challenge (similar to Fantasy) ? With the effects determined by results, possibly ranging from death/removed from play to X wounds?

2) I sort of confused things for everyone I think. To clarify:

-a Harlequin force is called a Masque, and is made up of troupes as well as specialists like Mimes, Death Jesters, etc.
-Masques are led by Great Harlequins, however the term "High Avatar" is used as well
-Troupes are lead by "Avatars", more commonly known as Troupe Leaders/Masters. Due to the lack of true Harlequin forces though, the term Great Harlequin has become used for this as well, technically incorrectly.

Why wouldn't the GH have better stats than a regular squad leader? SM Captains/Chapter Masters definately have better stats than Sergeants. And this isn't even a regular army's commander, its the leader of a Super Elite Super Rare Army that is only going to be used rarely in Apoc games. To get to the point, I really feel that someone going through the trouble of building this army to use it maybe bi- or tri-monthly at the very very most - in all likelihood a handful of times a year - should get some really cool characters to use. :D

And the most important reason to have him be the source of buffs is as a weakness. Yes, I feel that a powerful formation/army like this should have some sort of inherent weakness. And it fits the fluff perfectly!

Your buff ideas are very interesting, but a couple minor points. I'm not sure if the Coherency thing is such a good idea in Apoc, for the simple reason that the board could be clustered with hundreds of models and I'm not sure it would be feasible. That being said, I really like the idea and it would be extremely useful against the pieplates raining down on them!

Dance of Death, whatever happens we need to use that name for sure. This idea is cool, and my quibble with it is that it might be a bit too micromanagement intensive for Apoc. Not sure how it would really play out, but it seems very time consuming. But the combat res thing is very, very cool.

Not sure about it, but perhaps I will do some testing on how time consuming it is. If it can be done quickly and without "extra' time being lost, I'd say let's use it.

I also just though of an alternate idea for DoD.....FNP on a 5+. Thoughts? Too much?

Building on the idea about losing CA and FC:

Unstoppable Assault: When a unit from the formation assaults an enemy unit, the following happens:
-enemy loses effects of all cover and defensive grenades
-enemy loses effects of all Special Rules/Wargear that activates when assaulted (i.e. Counter-Attack)

Regardless, I think that a few buffs like Stubborn, possibly Pref. Enemy, and DoD or the Unstoppable Assault would be suitable. Especially since simply killing the GH eliminates them.

3) I really didn't expect to be discussing balance at this point, simply putting forth ideas about the general direction of the project. I really thought I was clear on this. But you still asked about 10 times why I did this or that! :confused:

This isn't a balance discussion yet. I am brainstorming. There is no need to tell me the stats are unbalanced.

Also, one big problem I think here. You are making rules for 40k. This isn't FOR 40k. It's for Apoc ONLY.

To make it easy to understand, this guy should have DOUBLE the effect on an Apoc game that Meph would.

For example, you say that the Wraith Swords are crazy. Well, they are in essence C'tan Phase Swords, something that exists already. The Destructor thing is just so he can kill superheavies, which is one of the primary goals and something that can be accomplished in other ways if you think D is over the top.

The Garb of Slaanesh - I never said it was unique at all. The Solitaire's purpose is to play Slaanesh in their performances, it is simply a fluffy name like Frost Blade. The little fluff I wrote was specific to the "first" one ever made. I actually was thinking that they would use something like a D field perhaps combined with psychic shrouding or something.

---- I will finish this post later, at work currently. And please keep in mind ALL stats written are purely speculative and just ideas.