Where do we Draw the Line?

[Mr.MoreTanks]

The other day my friend and i played a game of 40k. he passed me his army list and i looked it over to see what variation of Chaos SM i would face off against today.

i looked down and saw plague marines and noise marines all over his troop choices. oh i thought to myself, i wonder when he picked those up?

he started taking out his models, first was a squad of khorne bezerkers, the second was another squad of bezerkers, and so on. i asked him if he had gotten those plague and noise marines that were all but over flowing in his list.

"No, why would i? I'm not gonna go spend a ton of money just to get some different guys."

the game came and went and i tabled him with my guard, but afterwards i thought about it more...

i mean sure GW prices are to be honest, more than a little high, and it was just a pick up game but calling a bezerker a plague marine just really didn't sit right with me. sure a flamer as a melta here and there i get or even a special character or something.

but your entire army, when you have the models for another and you are just too cheap to but the new ones for your new army list, and just not caring or noticing?

where do we say ok you can only proxy to this point in a pick up game?

i can understand wanting to try a list once or twice before i go out and buy $100 in new guys but to keep doing it for months and months, even years? come on

so wat do you guys do? where is the line? clearly in tournaments its very black and white, but in everyday games it gets a little grey

[Leez]

In the sand, on a rainy day.

[BuFFo]

Ah.... You see how editions can change things, right?

For years, Berserkers were the bees knees, and even I had a Berserker Army, but then a new codex comes out, and all the models you bought because of their effectiveness are now abosolete.

It is actually a smart tactic for a gaming company to do this, so that players are inclined to purchase new models.

In the end, I just don't even play chaos anymore. The question then becomes, do you want to let your opponent proxy his army to play a game that he'll enjoy, or do you not want to even have an opponent to play with at all?

( good example of this are the ****s who force Nercon players to not use WBB against sweeping advance, thus, resulting in no one even playing Necrons anymore, or even the turds who won't let people use Kroot Mercs, even after they converted their army and dropped 800 bucks on figures for the army )

Sometimes, you just need to smile and let your opponent and enjoy their army. I mean, that is what the game is about, right?

Now, if you are just getting tired of fighting Plague Marines, that is a different story all together. Make sure you aren't mixing these emotions up.

Also - http://picardartclass.ytmnd.com/

[Bean]

I think there is pretty much no limit on what's acceptable as a proxy. Obviously, you should always be courteous to your opponent--make sure he or she knows what all of your pieces represent and generally try to use things that are of an appropriate size and shape--but it's just a game. Getting pissy about what pieces your opponent chooses to use is not very courteous.

I've played entire games with nothing but paper cutouts and it just doesn't have to make the game less at all.

[BuFFo]

I've played entire games with nothing but paper cutouts and it just doesn't have to make the game less at all.

Agreed!

I have played plenty of games with pennies, bricks and green army men on the table top :)

[CitizenZero]

Its really up to you to determine what you want to put up with. There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to not play against players who use proxies. It's actually rude to not ask your opponent if you can use them before the game even starts...

If somebody wants to proxy a model or two, thats one thing...but other than that, I don't want to play against somebody who proxies their whole army...it's not enjoyable for me.

[Freefall945]

It's this same ol' dividing line in gamer groups again. The people who don't lose any enjoyment playing with and against a bunch of coins and flattened beer cans are part of the "I hate/suck at painting and I am rancid with rage that I can be judged on it in a competition" crowd. People who abhor proxies are part of the aesthetically attached, "I joined this hobby for both halves, so for goodness sake make an effort" crowd. I'm part of the latter. The fewer proxies, the better. Where the line is exactly... that's up to you.

[fuzzbuket]

i suppose its what you want.

if youve spent years nicley modelling and painting an army your opponent shaold at least put in some effort, if EVERYTHING is a proxy counters will be better than models due to if a monolith is proxying a trukk youll still seee it as AV14.... its a psychological thingy

even so what i HATE is unpainted models

id prefer to play painted models in a 553 point game than unpainted in a 2000 point. if it looks better its easier to see dramatcic moments and so forth and have a good time! actualy painted models can be funny too ive modelled up ALL my blood angels in snowy camo, snowy camo claoks in a burnt out urban table :P

[Grabnutz]

It's this same ol' dividing line in gamer groups again. The people who don't lose any enjoyment playing with and against a bunch of coins and flattened beer cans are part of the "I hate/suck at painting and I am rancid with rage that I can be judged on it in a competition" crowd. People who abhor proxies are part of the aesthetically attached, "I joined this hobby for both halves, so for goodness sake make an effort" crowd. I'm part of the latter. The fewer proxies, the better. Where the line is exactly... that's up to you.

And here we go again with the sweeping generalizations, or am I utterly unique in enjoying and painting my figures to a moderate standard and don't mind if people play proxies. Often people will play proxies to try out troop types they don't yet own before selling a kidney for another GW boxed set.

What really get's my goat though is where a player converts and/or paints figures from other manufacturer's ranges and the GW-Strumtruppen pile in calling the army 'illegal' in friendly play. My current CSM army has figures from three different manufacturers in it as well as a Greater Daemon who started out as a small resin statuette of the Buddha. All the figures are identifiable as what they are supposed to be but I'm not GW-legal... boo-bleedin'-hoo :P

[Archon]

My friends and I keep it straight: WYSIWYG rules! If I don´t have any pleagemarines I don´t play them its that simple. No proxys, all models painted.

Okay sometimes we make a little exception. I like to try my traitor-soldiers but the ccs is just primed, i ask if it okay to make a 1K game with them and here we go. The big 30 impmob of my friends army didn´t contian any powerweapon, so okay wo go for it power. Only lillte expections are made and so we have nive and fine games without any bulltoys standing for whatever ist hip today.

If you buy your army strictly for powergaming with and the codex or the gameedi are changing - i don´t care, you don´t have it, simply don´t play it or buy it and paint it. If you like to test it, okay maybe we give it a try, but i if you simply will save your hard earnt money - you´re in the wrong hobbie.

[razcalking]

I'm okay with a player using proxies to try out new units and get a feel for them.

If he decides that this is going to be the long-term setup for his army, however, he should at least change his models to WYSIWYG.

[Aldramelech]

And here we go again with the sweeping generalizations, or am I utterly unique in enjoying and painting my figures to a moderate standard and don't mind if people play proxies. Often people will play proxies to try out troop types they don't yet own before selling a kidney for another GW boxed set.

What really get's my goat though is where a player converts and/or paints figures from other manufacturer's ranges and the GW-Strumtruppen pile in calling the army 'illegal' in friendly play. My current CSM army has figures from three different manufacturers in it as well as a Greater Daemon who started out as a small resin statuette of the Buddha. All the figures are identifiable as what they are supposed to be but I'm not GW-legal... boo-bleedin'-hoo :P

What really gets up my nose is that other companies are starting to think that this is acceptable behaviour.
Battle Front are now as bad if not worse then GW for this. On their forum you cant even mention that fact that there are other manufactorers of 15mm WW2 without being told off. Thats not naming any companies, thats just saying that there are other companies!

Wargaming has always been a mix and match affair. You like some ones infantry but dont like their vehicles, no problem, get some of each. Its always been that way. Now BF behave like they own the copyright to WW2 gaming.

[BuFFo]

It's this same ol' dividing line in gamer groups again. The people who don't lose any enjoyment playing with and against a bunch of coins and flattened beer cans are part of the "I hate/suck at painting and I am rancid with rage that I can be judged on it in a competition" crowd. People who abhor proxies are part of the aesthetically attached, "I joined this hobby for both halves, so for goodness sake make an effort" crowd. I'm part of the latter. The fewer proxies, the better. Where the line is exactly... that's up to you.

When you can form an adult oriented opinion, instead of this teenager angst lash-out, ignorant bias fest, then you can join the big boys in our big boy discussion.

[Nabterayl]

where do we say ok you can only proxy to this point in a pick up game?
Well, as CitizenZero says, we don't draw the line at all. What you need to answer for yourself is where you draw the line. Like Bean and BuFFo, I can still enjoy the game if my opponent is proxying models or even his entire army. Yes, I like Games Workshop's figures, and I like clever conversions - heck, I love that stuff. But I still like playing the game without it.


so wat do you guys do? where is the line?
Well, as I said, you need to decide for yourself. But if you're really just curious where other people's lines are, here's the way I look at it: I want my opponent to have fun. Yes, I want to beat him, but not if he didn't have a good time on the way. If forcing him to play with a list he doesn't want to play with just to avoid him proxying will diminish his fun, I don't want to do that (bearing in mind of course that, as I said, it doesn't prevent me from having fun). I even know some people who like to play the game but not so much that they want to buy an army at all, and I would rather play with a willing opponent than tell him, "No, the price of entry to have fun in this game is several hundred dollars."

[HsojVvad]

The other day my friend and i played a game of 40k. he passed me his army list and i looked it over to see what variation of Chaos SM i would face off against today.

i looked down and saw plague marines and noise marines all over his troop choices. oh i thought to myself, i wonder when he picked those up?

he started taking out his models, first was a squad of khorne bezerkers, the second was another squad of bezerkers, and so on. i asked him if he had gotten those plague and noise marines that were all but over flowing in his list.

"No, why would i? I'm not gonna go spend a ton of money just to get some different guys."

Well first off he should have told you that he was using proxies, not very sportsmanship about it, but then again, did you give him time to explain it to you? Maybe he wanted to get everything out of the box and then explain it to you as he was laying them out.

the game came and went and i tabled him with my guard, but afterwards i thought about it more...

Did you not have fun playing the game? What more do you want? I thought the game was to have fun.

i mean sure GW prices are to be honest, more than a little high, and it was just a pick up game but calling a bezerker a plague marine just really didn't sit right with me. sure a flamer as a melta here and there i get or even a special character or something.

Just a little high? Not everyone is made of money to buy everthing WYSIWYG. Also not everyone has time or like to paint and model as well. He did it once, why should he have to do it agian if he dosn't want to? Also why didn't it sit right with you? What is exactly wrong having a Khorn being used as a plague marine?

but your entire army, when you have the models for another and you are just too cheap to but the new ones for your new army list, and just not caring or noticing?

So no you are resluting to name calling. He is cheap is he? Why don't you give him the money to buy plague marines? If you don't, does that make you cheap then?

where do we say ok you can only proxy to this point in a pick up game?

i can understand wanting to try a list once or twice before i go out and buy $100 in new guys but to keep doing it for months and months, even years? come on

Good for you, you can go out and buy $100 worth of stuff and the time to do it. Do you want a cookie or a sticker because you can do that? Oh better yet, what about the person who donates all their money to charity? Does that make you a selfish son of a ***** because the money you give to GW can be better used to feed the poor, the homeless? I bet if we ask the majority of the people, most will call you a geek, nerd or worse. Maybe they will say why are you so effing stupid to spend $100 on minitures when you can go to the dollar store and buy more for less?

so wat do you guys do? where is the line? clearly in tournaments its very black and white, but in everyday games it gets a little grey

In ever day life we have lives. Not everyone who buys a GW product is in the hobby for painting, converting and playing rules. Not everyone loves WYSIWYG. Not everyone is a rules lawyer.

Yes maybe your fun is taken away form your "standards" but you should never ever tell anyone how to do their hobby, or put your standards on them.

If this really upsets you, never play him again, and find people who have your standards then.

Don't call someone cheap because they will not spend money on GW. Can you tell us for a fact that this person has money out of his yinyang, has so much free time in his life and loves to paint and convert. Since you are painting a picture of this guy, I want all the facts, so I can call him cheap as well then and agree with you.

You are very one sided. You have to understand not everyone has the same intrest in the hobby. Since everyone loves quoting the BRB, please show me the page number where it says that anyone who wants to be into the hobby has to pain, has to put minis together, has to be WYSIWYG, hell even has to shower?

I think there is more things in life than worring about proxies.

Here it is, don't play with anyone who dosn't have the same standards as you. I don't want to hear that I can't find any gamers so I am stuck with them. Beggers can't be choosers. You have to be respectfull of your fellow gamer. As soon as someone says, well it's been years you been using Khorn as a plauge bearer you have to change it. If you know this person for years, then buy him plauge bearers then, other wise you are just cheep, because this would have enhanced your gaming experiance and you didn't do anything to make it better.

[Lerra]

Some of my favorite games have been with crazy proxy armies when we are just goofing around with an army that we would never build. One of my favorite beer-and-pretzels scenarios involves building a list for your opponent to play - the goal is to build the worst possible legal army, and then try to make lemonade out of the lemons your opponent gives you. Obviously this involves heavy proxying, as no one in their right mind would buy Aun'va, piles of Grotesques, 9 Death Cult Assassins, hordes of Nurglings, etc. It makes for a fun game because it's impossible take the game very seriously when you've been given a close-combat Tau army led by Aun'Va.

For casual play, I'm fine with almost any level of proxying, although it's helpful if it's clear which unit is what. A friend who is just starting the game has taken to putting taped little pieces of paper on marines saying "Meltagun" so that it's clear what is what. He runs more meltaguns in his squads than come in the box. I'm not going to make him buy a whole extra box for one meltagun. I see that particular case as more of GW's problem than a problem with my friend.

For tournaments, WYSIWYG is standard, although I don't mind proxies that follow WYSIWYG (like a servo-skull that counts-as a sanctioned psyker in a psyker battle squad).

[CitizenZero]

I think there is more things in life than worring about proxies.This will become my new signature.

[the jeske]

You guys do understand that with counts as being the supported by GW rule one could use stones on bases and the list would still be legal.

[lobster-overlord]

You guys do understand that with counts as being the supported by GW rule one could use stones on bases and the list would still be legal.

Only if those stones were sold to you in a bag marked "Citadel" or "Games Workshop." They still like to enforce the "gotta buy it from us, or make it from one of ours" rule in some situations.

John M.

[Cossack]

How about "You win. Can we play for fun now?"

Just point 'em up the way they look and play them that way.

[Leez]

Only if those stones were sold to you in a bag marked "Citadel" or "Games Workshop." They still like to enforce the "gotta buy it from us, or make it from one of ours" rule in some situations.

John M.

Indeed they do sell such things in their "Citadel Warhammer Basing Kit" product. A person could run one heck of a pet rock theme army.

[Bean]

How about "You win. Can we play for fun now?"

Just point 'em up the way they look and play them that way.

The suggestion that people who proxy are playing to win rather than to have fun seems horribly misguided, to me. My regular army is the one I win with. I try not to spend money on units that aren't going to be effective in a game.

When I proxy, I'm almost always playing an army that I think will be fun or interesting or entertaining. Sometimes even silly. I really never do it to make a more powerful army than the one I have, and I'd be willing to bet that this is a common trend.

It is not reasonable to assume that everyone who is proxying an army is doing so in order to create the most powerful army he or she can imagine.

It is not reasonable to presume that a game without proxies will be more fun than a game with proxies, or that playing with proxies is necessarily not the same as playing for fun.


Imagine a player who has an older army built for an edition which has passed and left the models he owns comprising only armies which are terrible or which he doesn't enjoy playing. Are you really saying that he should be forced to either play an army he doesn't enjoy or purchase a bunch of new stuff to fix it? Should he not be allowed to have fun until he buys a bunch more stuff?

That's patently and obviously absurd. It really is shocking that so many people have taken that stance.

Obviously no one can or should be able to force you to play against proxies. Similarly, you shouldn't feel that you can force others to play with non-proxied models. Both stances, when adopted hard-line, are unreasonable and, frankly, stupid.

In the end, though, it is far more reasonable to play with models and armies you like and let your opponent play with models and armies he likes--whether those models are proxies or not. You might not enjoy it quite as much as playing against a properly modeled and fully painted army, but if you really fail to enjoy it more than not playing at all, you're pretty clearly Doing Something Wrong.

[the jeske]

Only if those stones were sold to you in a bag marked "Citadel" or "Games Workshop." They still like to enforce the "gotta buy it from us, or make it from one of ours" rule in some situations.

John M.

nope that is not what the rules say . own conversion or self sculpts with GW parts or GW only models . I could do a crystal xeno race doing a counts as sm or eldar list and it would not only be fluffy , but also totaly legal.



How about "You win. Can we play for fun now?"
I dont get this part , how is playing to win not fun and how is playing to lose[the other option if your not playing to win] fun. Because somehow am missing your point here.

[Bean]

Hah! It's the Jeske!

Far and away the most entertaining poster on the B&C.

[Aldramelech]

nope that is not what the rules say . own conversion or self sculpts with GW parts or GW only models . I could do a crystal xeno race doing a counts as sm or eldar list and it would not only be fluffy , but also totaly legal.



I dont get this part , how is playing to win not fun and how is playing to lose[the other option if your not playing to win] fun. Because somehow am missing your point here.

Don't be obtuse. You know perfectly well he is describing someone who is playing to win at any cost to the detriment of fun.

Not entertained so far, perhaps B&C is too highbrow for the likes of me?

[Bean]

No, Aldramech, the poster to whom he was responding was actually describing someone who chooses to play with proxies--a decision which doesn't necessarily have much to do with either fun or winning.

Beyond that, both the phrase "win at all costs" and the phrase "to the detriment of fun" are really misused often in this sort of context, and you have definitely misused both in your post.

First off, you have never met nor heard of a player who plays to win at all costs. That is, you've never met or heard of a player who has, just as an example, held his opponent's family hostage in order to convince his opponent to make poor moves and thereby secure a win. The things people like you generally dislike don't even approach playing to win at all costs, which makes that a particularly silly phrase to use when describing them.

Similarly, practically no-one does things to the detriment of fun--at least, not to the detriment of his or her own fun--when playing a game. Winning is fun. Players who play to win generally do so because they find that it is fun to win, and fun to play to win.

Further, it can be perfectly fun to play against someone who is playing to win--even if you, yourself, are not playing to win. If you are failing to have fun against a player who is playing to win, and that is the only reason you are not finding the game fun, that is your fault--not your opponent's.

Usually, what people are really talking about (when they say or write things like you have above) is players who are rude or obnoxious to the detriment of fun, and that is a legitimate concern. It is not, however, tied to playing to win, and it is heavily obfuscated by the phrases you have chosen to use.

Expressing concern over players who "play to win at all costs" or who ruin your fun by trying to win is just silly. There isn't anything wrong with trying to win the game. There is nothing anyone can do within the context of the game which qualifies as 'trying too hard to win,' or 'focusing on winning to the detriment of fun.'

The only time someone can actually be trying so hard to win that it's legitimately detrimental to the fun of the game is when he or she is doing something outside the context of the game--like taking your family hostage, cheating, or being obnoxious--however all such issues are inherently distinct from and deeper than trying too hard to win. When you tie them to the focus on winning, you simultaneously do undeserved harm to people who like to win and foolishly ignore the actual causes of this sort of un-fun behavior--be they poor social skills, a lack of integrity, or an overriding sociopathy.

In short, Jeske's question is actually quite legitimate. How is playing to win not fun?

[Aldramelech]

What he is clearly saying is that the person has deliberately used proxies to make cheating easier, and therefore is willing to win at any cost. So if he says "Fine you win, can we play for fun now?" he is in fact being sarcastic.

The term "Win at any cost" is a common phrase in the English language to describe someone who is willing to cheat to achieve victory. This doesn't mean that when someone says "Micheal Schumacher is willing to win at any cost" they are saying everybody's favorite German is going to Kidnap Mark Webber's family (although I'm sure the thought has crossed his mind).

Don't be bandying words with me you over educated ponse, I ain't intimidated. Could you be any more condescending?

I await your overly long winded reply in an attempt to dig yourself out of the Stupid hole.

[the jeske]

What he is clearly saying is that the person has deliberately used proxies to make cheating easier, and therefore is willing to win at any cost.
but counts as is not cheating . It is a rule that was put to front in 5th ed by GW and fully supported .



The term "Win at any cost" is a common phrase in the English language to describe someone who is willing to cheat to achieve victory.
ok . how is using counts as or unpainted models cheating ??? because the rules for playing only with painted models is only in effect for tournament and even there not for all of them [like HB for example].how does being upainted help "win at all costs" , unless I dont know the whole table is made out of ruins the color of GW plastic.

[Grabnutz]

Guys, guys, guys we are wandering off into the realms of tautology, semi-deliberate misunderstandling and nonsense. Shall we get back to the point?

It seems that some posters here draw the line at anything that isn't, a) GW original, b) painted to an indentifiable standard and c) exactly the figure it is supposed to be - the holy of holies, WYSIWYG.

Others are more relaxed and take a more 'live and let live' approach, like myself and I believe Aldramech.

I am also of the opinion that I am not in a feudal relationship with GW, and am not behoven to them. I am their customer and what I choose to do, or not do with their figures and rules is my decision not theirs - or that of their more 'loyal' fans.

Thus when someone turns up at my table with figures that re not WYSIWYG and are prepared to clearly describe and where necessary remind me of what is proxying for what I am happy to play, because to me having a good game is the thing.

[Aldramelech]

but counts as is not cheating . It is a rule that was put to front in 5th ed by GW and fully supported .


ok . how is using counts as or unpainted models cheating ??? because the rules for playing only with painted models is only in effect for tournament and even there not for all of them [like HB for example].how does being upainted help "win at all costs" , unless I dont know the whole table is made out of ruins the color of GW plastic.

IM not saying it is cheating to use proxies. The oringinal poster is not saying it is cheating using proxies. What the oringinal poster is saying is that it is easier to cheat if your using proxies.
I have neither agreed or disagreed with that statement.

Did IQs drop sharply round here in the last month?

[Kirsten]

I can see both sides with proxies, I don't believe things should be GW models only, if other companies make models you like more, go for it. It is better I think if they are easy to explain, and if they are roughly the same size, different bases for example could make the game harder/easier. Personally I have seen some great dreadknight models somewhere I intend to use for blood knights, if I can find them again. On the other hand I did once play a chaos player whose knights were eldar jetbikes, flamers were assault marines, and a dreadnought was a greater daemon. The guy wasn't a new player, had used these proxies for 18 months and just didn't want to bother buying any models. But I think what bothered me about it was his attitude as much as anything, if he felt he was losing, he would simply remove all his models from the table "the army has committed ritual suicide". Annoying.

And Aldramelech, fix the rest of the post you edited.

[Bean]

What he is clearly saying is that the person has deliberately used proxies to make cheating easier, and therefore is willing to win at any cost. So if he says "Fine you win, can we play for fun now?" he is in fact being sarcastic.

No, actually. Again, you are just flatly incorrect. Neither Cossack (the poster to whom the Jeske responded) nor the OP ever mentioned or alluded to cheating at all. You pretty much just fabricated this out of whole cloth.



I await your overly long winded reply in an attempt to dig yourself out of the Stupid hole.

No need. When my "opponent" in a debate is just rambling about things he's imagined, hurling insults, and not actually addressing any of the issues in question, there's really no point to to continuing. Have a nice day.

[Aldramelech]

No, actually. Again, you are just flatly incorrect. Neither Cossack (the poster to whom the Jeske responded) nor the OP ever mentioned or alluded to cheating at all. You pretty much just fabricated this out of whole cloth.




No need. When my "opponent" in a debate is just rambling about things he's imagined, hurling insults, and not actually addressing any of the issues in question, there's really no point to to continuing. Have a nice day.

Or you could just run off and tell a moderator :D

[eldargal]

With proxies it is all about intent. If someone is using a different army to test whether they like it, fine. If they have an extensive 'counts as; army (FSM, weird xenos, Raging Midgets etc) that is fine. If someone is using SM as Eldar because they don't want to buy a new army, that is not fine. I'm all for encouraging diveristy within the hobby, scratchbuilds, extensive conversions, counts as etc.

[Bean]

Or you could just run off and tell a moderator :D

I generally feel that's a poor recourse, but if you're honestly suggesting that I should report your post, in this case, I'll consider it.

[HsojVvad]

With proxies it is all about intent. If someone is using a different army to test whether they like it, fine. If they have an extensive 'counts as; army (FSM, weird xenos, Raging Midgets etc) that is fine. If someone is using SM as Eldar because they don't want to buy a new army, that is not fine. I'm all for encouraging diveristy within the hobby, scratchbuilds, extensive conversions, counts as etc.

I respect you very much. The part I don't agree with your statement of not wanting to buy a new army. Why is that? When someone says if you want to play a new army you have to buy a new army. That statement is so egotistical and saying it's wrong you shouldn't do that because you wouldn't do that, is making you to be better than someone else.

I am not shure if that is your intent, but if I spent a $1000 on GW products only ( I know stupid of me not buying else where) and now I lost my job and have to provide for my family so have no extra money now, and I might want to play something different but I can't afford it, or choose not to spend the money on it because I spent enough money already, that I am tired of playing SM I want to play Eldar now, and I can't because my minis are not Eldar? Are you really serious?

That is a pretty Eliteist attitude. After all we are playing with plastic toy minitures.

You know how foolish that really sounds? We are playing with pieces of over priced plastic, and it's ok to play with a piece of plastic is being represtented as a Space Marine. So it's ok for a piece of plastic to be a SM but it's not ok for that same piece of plastic to be an Eldar, or an Ork or what ever?

Wow. Just Wow. I don't know what else to say now. Grown people telling other gronw people how to play a game or hobby even when the company themselves encourage 'Counts As'.

I really hope this is not how you think. For if it is, I have lost all respect for you and anyone who thinks like you.

It's one thing if you don't want to play agaisnt someone who plays Eldar and is using Space Marines, but it's another to tell that person he has to buy Eldar Minis to play Eldar.

Again, if you don't like playing anyone using proxies, be it for a short time, or for ever, then don't play that person. But please do not tell that person how he should be playing the game, or the "hobby" as people like to say.

It's like collecting hockey cards. If a person buys hockey cards and likes to toss them around, then so be it. You have no right to tell him that he can't do that, because they cost so much money. If that is what he wants so be it, you don't have to trade with him then.

Same as gaming. If the person wants to use SM for Eldar, so be it, you don't have to play him, but you have no right to tell him he can't do it. Basically who is anyone telling someone what he can't and can do in his hobby?

I would love for this convertaion to be done in a public street, not on the interent. This way all the people walking about can see of what we are really arguing about. Just imagine the looks of these people, looking at us arguing over a piece of over priced plastic saying that if it's a SM or an Eldar when to that person it just looks like a plastic doll and why on earth we would be playing with in in the first place.

And we wonder why we are called, geeks or nerds or loosers for playing with overprice plastic toy soldiers. :eek:

[HsojVvad]

I just noticed my sig. I have copied this from someone else, I forget who now, but he is correct. We buy everthing 100% GW and GW even says do what ever we want. So if it's good enough for GW that we do what ever we want with our 100% GW stuff, then it should be good enough with us. :D

[Aldramelech]

I generally feel that's a poor recourse, but if you're honestly suggesting that I should report your post, in this case, I'll consider it.

You knock yourself out mate.

[Bean]

You knock yourself out mate.

How is it that you've become convinced that I want to report you? Don't you think that if I did want to report you, I'd have done it already?

[Aldramelech]

I can see both sides with proxies, I don't believe things should be GW models only, if other companies make models you like more, go for it. It is better I think if they are easy to explain, and if they are roughly the same size, different bases for example could make the game harder/easier. Personally I have seen some great dreadknight models somewhere I intend to use for blood knights, if I can find them again. On the other hand I did once play a chaos player whose knights were eldar jetbikes, flamers were assault marines, and a dreadnought was a greater daemon. The guy wasn't a new player, had used these proxies for 18 months and just didn't want to bother buying any models. But I think what bothered me about it was his attitude as much as anything, if he felt he was losing, he would simply remove all his models from the table "the army has committed ritual suicide". Annoying.

And Aldramelech, fix the rest of the post you edited.

What?

[Aldramelech]

How is it that you've become convinced that I want to report you? Don't you think that if I did want to report you, I'd have done it already?

Oh I think we both know you did that looong before I suggested it........

[Bean]

Oh I think we both know you did that looong before I suggested it........

No, I didn't. Again, you're just making stuff up. Why do that?

[Aldramelech]

Whatever....

[Gotthammer]

I am not shure if that is your intent, but if I spent a $1000 on GW products only ( I know stupid of me not buying else where) and now I lost my job and have to provide for my family so have no extra money now, and I might want to play something different but I can't afford it, or choose not to spend the money on it because I spent enough money already, that I am tired of playing SM I want to play Eldar now, and I can't because my minis are not Eldar? Are you really serious?


Not speaking for EG, but as I agree with her I'll chime in:
That is probably the most ridiculous argument in the world you could have made. We're not talking about someone down on his luck here, we're talking some guy who simply can't be bothered putting down the dosh for his hobby and uses other stuff week in week out.
If I play MtG, I've got to buy the cards to use them - simply saying 'this common is actually a super-deluxe-rare that goes for $500' doesn't really fly. You need the card.
I want a Mustang. I can tell people I drive a Mustang. But I'm not driving a Mustang no matter what.

If I really want to get a Mustang I'll save up for it. If I want the MtG card I'll hunt it down. If I want a new 40k army I'll front the cash. I may play a proxy army to see if I like the playstyle before I spend the money, if that was the main focus for me (or borrow someone elses), but I'll be adding units as I go. That's life; things cost money and 'real life' gets in the way of being able to afford our essentially unneccesary hobby.

Imagine you're a stamp collector: the penny black is the prize in any collection; but of course it costs a lot of money to get it. Eh, just print out a scan and stick it in - same diff, right? Why not just photocopy / print out all your stamps - it's far cheaper that way! Sure the elitist snobs may have a go that it's not real collecting, but it's just over-valued bits of paper we're talking about, so who cares? ;)


In your scenario where I'm some sort of wretched street urchin begging the redshirts 'may I have some more 40k', yes, you have a legitimate reason to lack the new army you want to play. The original position was:
"No, why would i? I'm not gonna go spend a ton of money just to get some different guys."

Completely different attitude and reason for it. Elitist? Maybe, but that's how I feel.

[Aldramelech]

Not speaking for EG, but as I agree with her I'll chime in:
That is probably the most ridiculous argument in the world you could have made. We're not talking about someone down on his luck here, we're talking some guy who simply can't be bothered putting down the dosh for his hobby and uses other stuff week in week out.
If I play MtG, I've got to buy the cards to use them - simply saying 'this common is actually a super-deluxe-rare that goes for $500' doesn't really fly. You need the card.
I want a Mustang. I can tell people I drive a Mustang. But I'm not driving a Mustang no matter what.

If I really want to get a Mustang I'll save up for it. If I want the MtG card I'll hunt it down. If I want a new 40k army I'll front the cash. I may play a proxy army to see if I like the playstyle before I spend the money, if that was the main focus for me (or borrow someone elses), but I'll be adding units as I go. That's life; things cost money and 'real life' gets in the way of being able to afford our essentially unneccesary hobby.

Imagine you're a stamp collector: the penny black is the prize in any collection; but of course it costs a lot of money to get it. Eh, just print out a scan and stick it in - same diff, right? Why not just photocopy / print out all your stamps - it's far cheaper that way! Sure the elitist snobs may have a go that it's not real collecting, but it's just over-valued bits of paper we're talking about, so who cares? ;)


In your scenario where I'm some sort of wretched street urchin begging the redshirts 'may I have some more 40k', yes, you have a legitimate reason to lack the new army you want to play. The original position was:
"No, why would i? I'm not gonna go spend a ton of money just to get some different guys."

Completely different attitude and reason for it. Elitist? Maybe, but that's how I feel.

Agreed.

[scadugenga]

with proxies it is all about intent. If someone is using a different army to test whether they like it, fine. If they have an extensive 'counts as; army (fsm, weird xenos, raging midgets etc) that is fine. If someone is using sm as eldar because they don't want to buy a new army, that is not fine. I'm all for encouraging diveristy within the hobby, scratchbuilds, extensive conversions, counts as etc.

qft

[HsojVvad]

Not speaking for EG, but as I agree with her I'll chime in:
That is probably the most ridiculous argument in the world you could have made. We're not talking about someone down on his luck here, we're talking some guy who simply can't be bothered putting down the dosh for his hobby and uses other stuff week in week out.
If I play MtG, I've got to buy the cards to use them - simply saying 'this common is actually a super-deluxe-rare that goes for $500' doesn't really fly. You need the card.
I want a Mustang. I can tell people I drive a Mustang. But I'm not driving a Mustang no matter what.

If I really want to get a Mustang I'll save up for it. If I want the MtG card I'll hunt it down. If I want a new 40k army I'll front the cash. I may play a proxy army to see if I like the playstyle before I spend the money, if that was the main focus for me (or borrow someone elses), but I'll be adding units as I go. That's life; things cost money and 'real life' gets in the way of being able to afford our essentially unneccesary hobby.

Imagine you're a stamp collector: the penny black is the prize in any collection; but of course it costs a lot of money to get it. Eh, just print out a scan and stick it in - same diff, right? Why not just photocopy / print out all your stamps - it's far cheaper that way! Sure the elitist snobs may have a go that it's not real collecting, but it's just over-valued bits of paper we're talking about, so who cares? ;)


In your scenario where I'm some sort of wretched street urchin begging the redshirts 'may I have some more 40k', yes, you have a legitimate reason to lack the new army you want to play. The original position was:
"No, why would i? I'm not gonna go spend a ton of money just to get some different guys."

Completely different attitude and reason for it. Elitist? Maybe, but that's how I feel.

That is well said and put. The thing I don't understand is, you say the person said "I'm not gonna go spend a ton of money just to get some different guys", so what? He dosn't want to spend the money on it. Is that so bad?

Why does he have to spend the money on it if he wants to play a different army? This is what I do not understand. Why are people so gun ho that an elder has to be an elder, a SM has to be a SM, an ork has to be an ork. As long as everything is said ahead of time, and from reading peoples comments here, I assume are almost experts in GW games, that seeing a mini that is different in no way should make you off your game since most of you seem to be so smart to know what is what.

I just don't get it. Maybe it's because I am not inot the "hobby" as much as most people are in here, and my attitude is pretty laid back. I just don't like when people put thier opnions or ideas on others on what needs to be done.

Does this person really need to spend hundreds of dollars on a new army to play? If so why does he need to do it. For me "counts as" is perfectly fine.

So maybe instead of people just saying "it's wrong" can people explain why it's so wrong that a person dosn't plan on ever buying another army.

Using the same anology, why would a guy with a car want to buy a Mustang if he wants to. If he pretends it's a Mustang, let him. How is it harming you that he is pretending his car is a Mustang? He dosn't want to spend tens of thousands of dollars doing so.

Also, he has spent lots of money on his army. He has spent time building converting and painting his army. So if he wants to start a new army why does he have to start all over again?

Please explain to me why it is so wrong for this person never plans on spending money and buy and build and paint another army. Why is it wrong, I just don't understand.

This reminds me of a time where I almost throttled a GW employee because he told me I couldn't do it because it was't the real model.

I said "what you mean I can't do it, just use your imagination, heck after all you are pretending these SM are SM after all"

I walked out and then came back in raising my voice saying "who the hell are you to tell me, how I can and can not play when I am at home".

So if a person wants to do something, nobody has a right to tell him he is wrong. So what's next? I say you can't use this mini because he dosn't have the proper bullets modelled, or psychic powers modelled so you can't use psychic powers now.

First thing someone will say is that is not in the rules so it dosn't have to be done. There you go, there is no rule in real life telling us how to do our "hobby"

Again if you don't like it, don't play the person. What is so wrong with that? The person has a right to play with counts as armies as the person has a right not to play counts as armies.

So again, why is this person wrong?

[templarboy]

I'll swagger into this one. I prefer to play with people that are flexible. But there are limits. I don't mind proxies or "counts as" for the occasional game. I do mind having to ask every 5 seconds what the heck that unit is or does. It really drives me crazy. I have seen people proxy things because they are cheapskates and don't want to pony up the bucks for 3 uber-units of 10 wraithguard each but using Guardians instead.

The prices of units are a limiting factor in and of themselves. $23 for an Obliterator? Good. Maybe I won't have to face down 9 of them. My opinion-proxy and get crazy with your friends. If I am not your friend and we are playing a pick up game-play what you have and save up for the real models. I have limited play time and prefer to hone my strategies, not ask what the heck that fig is THIS time over and over again. Guess I am an elitest.

[Cossack]

Yeah, I'm an elistist too. The hobby's about playing games with cool looking collections of figures. And I play mine the way they look.

I can hardly keep track of the details of my own army...there's no way I can remember my opponent's proxies.

And yes I play to win - it's about respecting my opponent. I don't care if I win (the troops just go back into the box), but I try. No rule is worth arguing over though.... And when I see a squad with a plasma gun, then I don't worry about bunching up. Then that plasma gun turns into a proxied 'flamer' (how convenient) and poof....there goes my troops to something that I could have easily mitigated if I just saw it as a flamer. Silly me though, I expected it to actually be a plasma gun. But since I don't fuss about winning I just sit there and take it.

Nope, proxying is for powergamers who seem to need a win to feel good. So okay - "You win. Can we play for fun now?" That means lets just play with the troops they way they look.

[aztex3400]

Hmm, this is an interesting thread. I have an extensive "counts as" army. Now that being said, I believe there is a significant difference between proxies and counts as. IMHO proxies are things like a flamer being counted as a melta gun, a missile launcher being counted as a lascannon, etc. A "counts as" model is like the one in my army. A high elf dragon, from the fantasy line, being used as a Trygon.

Theme of the army:
Exodite eldar that have forsaken all tech, but instead rely upon the natural way of things. Basically I use some models from several different armies to make mine, and I use the 'Nid Dex
Examples include:
Darkelf Corsairs as Hormagaunts
Spell singers as Zoenthropes
Gladeguard as Termagaunts
All have been mounted on the correct bases and the height of the model is the same as the original if not higher

So from what a few of the folks on the thread have said that they would not play against my army. This army looks great on the table and is incredibly fun to play. My army list always has both the model on the table and the original names so folks know what everything is and everything has a significantly different look to it so nothing can be confused with something else.

So am I cheating? Of course I'm going to say no,but I built this army because I thought it was a cool concept and have received many compliments on it. I have had it aproved for both Bolscon as well as for the previous astronomicon (sadly I had to miss it due to lifetus interuptus).
As for tourneys WYSIWYG is important, and I whole heartily agree that a flamer needs to be a flamer in that setting. An entire counts as army should be able to be played as well, if they are consistent with the model choice/conversion throughout the entire army.

Now in pickup game in a FLGS proxie to your hearts content, I am still gonna play ya, as long as those flamers stay melta and don't suddenly become flamers in the middle of the game. Tho at some some point I will give ya a little flack, if you are not a least trying to replace them. BTW all in good fun. :)

I hope to see everyone at Bolscon, and I look forward to proving some of naysayers wrong about counts as armies.

[CitizenZero]

If you like to play with proxies, your a cheater.

If you like your opponent to play without proxies, you're an elitist.

Either way, feelings are getting hurt.

I vote that everyone just stop playing all together.

[Freefall945]

When you can form an adult oriented opinion, instead of this teenager angst lash-out, ignorant bias fest, then you can join the big boys in our big boy discussion.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I take tips on forum decorum from you Buffo, as in my comparatively short time here I've noticed your posts are typically either the "swear and flail" or "sneer and brag" varieties.


And here we go again with the sweeping generalizations, or am I utterly unique in enjoying and painting my figures to a moderate standard and don't mind if people play proxies. Often people will play proxies to try out troop types they don't yet own before selling a kidney for another GW boxed set.

Indeed, they are generalizations - I wouldn't consider them -particularly sweeping, but that's a subjective term anyway. They're generalizations because I would submit they are generally true, and it is for this reason that a generalization is a useful rhetorical tool.


I'd like to add, having noted the nose-wrinkling and the beginning of the emergence of terms like "elitist", that it's possible here to severely miss the point. Ultimately, this is a game we all play for fun, and if for some reason the game you have an option to play won't be fun for you, you don't need to play.

As I said earlier, you can generally divide people into two categories - those who care about how the models look, and those who don't. If you're in the former catagory, you have the right to discriminate between potential opponents and shouldn't feel bad for not playing against Bobby Jean and his army of Bart Simpson Key Ring Marines. If you're in the latter group, if you're interested in expanding your potential sparring partners to encompass the former, you may have to bite the bullet, buy the right models and give them a dash of paint. That's the long and short of it.

Suggesting that one has no desire to play games against proxied or unpainted armies and declining to do so is a choice and a right, though perhaps a mildly absurd limitation of opponents at worst.

Suggesting that one has no right to decline to play heavily proxied armies, or that they are some kind of elitist or bad person for doing so, is an entirely different kind of absurd, several orders of magnitude grander.

[chromedog]

There are some kids in my club who do this.

I've seen the same grey plastic SPACE MARINES proxied as necrons, orks, chaos and even tyranids.

My preferences are to NEVER play anyone less than half my age unless they have shown themselves worthy of my attention. Alternatively, if they are unable to go to the bar and buy me a beer, I don't WANT to play them. I joined a wargames club, not a creche, damnit!
If they cheat (common), throw trantrums (sadly, also common) or just be inattentive and lack focus, they don't get to play me.

[Aldramelech]

No, Aldramech, the poster to whom he was responding was actually describing someone who chooses to play with proxies--a decision which doesn't necessarily have much to do with either fun or winning.

Beyond that, both the phrase "win at all costs" and the phrase "to the detriment of fun" are really misused often in this sort of context, and you have definitely misused both in your post.

First off, you have never met nor heard of a player who plays to win at all costs. That is, you've never met or heard of a player who has, just as an example, held his opponent's family hostage in order to convince his opponent to make poor moves and thereby secure a win. The things people like you generally dislike don't even approach playing to win at all costs, which makes that a particularly silly phrase to use when describing them.

Similarly, practically no-one does things to the detriment of fun--at least, not to the detriment of his or her own fun--when playing a game. Winning is fun. Players who play to win generally do so because they find that it is fun to win, and fun to play to win.

Further, it can be perfectly fun to play against someone who is playing to win--even if you, yourself, are not playing to win. If you are failing to have fun against a player who is playing to win, and that is the only reason you are not finding the game fun, that is your fault--not your opponent's.

Usually, what people are really talking about (when they say or write things like you have above) is players who are rude or obnoxious to the detriment of fun, and that is a legitimate concern. It is not, however, tied to playing to win, and it is heavily obfuscated by the phrases you have chosen to use.

Expressing concern over players who "play to win at all costs" or who ruin your fun by trying to win is just silly. There isn't anything wrong with trying to win the game. There is nothing anyone can do within the context of the game which qualifies as 'trying too hard to win,' or 'focusing on winning to the detriment of fun.'

The only time someone can actually be trying so hard to win that it's legitimately detrimental to the fun of the game is when he or she is doing something outside the context of the game--like taking your family hostage, cheating, or being obnoxious--however all such issues are inherently distinct from and deeper than trying too hard to win. When you tie them to the focus on winning, you simultaneously do undeserved harm to people who like to win and foolishly ignore the actual causes of this sort of un-fun behavior--be they poor social skills, a lack of integrity, or an overriding sociopathy.

In short, Jeske's question is actually quite legitimate. How is playing to win not fun?


What he is clearly saying is that the person has deliberately used proxies to make cheating easier, and therefore is willing to win at any cost. So if he says "Fine you win, can we play for fun now?" he is in fact being sarcastic.

The term "Win at any cost" is a common phrase in the English language to describe someone who is willing to cheat to achieve victory. This doesn't mean that when someone says "Micheal Schumacher is willing to win at any cost" they are saying everybody's favorite German is going to Kidnap Mark Webber's family (although I'm sure the thought has crossed his mind).

Don't be bandying words with me you over educated ponse, I ain't intimidated. Could you be any more condescending?

I await your overly long winded reply in an attempt to dig yourself out of the Stupid hole.


No, actually. Again, you are just flatly incorrect. Neither Cossack (the poster to whom the Jeske responded) nor the OP ever mentioned or alluded to cheating at all. You pretty much just fabricated this out of whole cloth.




No need. When my "opponent" in a debate is just rambling about things he's imagined, hurling insults, and not actually addressing any of the issues in question, there's really no point to to continuing. Have a nice day.


Yeah, I'm an elistist too. The hobby's about playing games with cool looking collections of figures. And I play mine the way they look.

I can hardly keep track of the details of my own army...there's no way I can remember my opponent's proxies.

And yes I play to win - it's about respecting my opponent. I don't care if I win (the troops just go back into the box), but I try. No rule is worth arguing over though.... And when I see a squad with a plasma gun, then I don't worry about bunching up. Then that plasma gun turns into a proxied 'flamer' (how convenient) and poof....there goes my troops to something that I could have easily mitigated if I just saw it as a flamer. Silly me though, I expected it to actually be a plasma gun. But since I don't fuss about winning I just sit there and take it.

Nope, proxying is for powergamers who seem to need a win to feel good. So okay - "You win. Can we play for fun now?" That means lets just play with the troops they way they look.

Go on then, try and wriggle your way out of that one. You can apologise by PM if you prefer.

[Bean]

Freefall

While I agree that BuFFo is not a very good role model for internet behavior, he is correct in his assessment of your original post in this thread. It is puerile. You present what could be a reasonable dichotomy, but use language which not only makes it clear that you feel one side is worse than the other, but actually directly insults members of the other side in more than one way. Let's look again at what you actually wrote:



It's this same ol' dividing line in gamer groups again. The people who don't lose any enjoyment playing with and against a bunch of coins and flattened beer cans are part of the "I hate/suck at painting and I am rancid with rage that I can be judged on it in a competition" crowd. People who abhor proxies are part of the aesthetically attached, "I joined this hobby for both halves, so for goodness sake make an effort" crowd. I'm part of the latter. The fewer proxies, the better. Where the line is exactly... that's up to you.

You actually specifically state that everyone who is willing to play "with and against a bunch of coins and flattened bear cans" either hates painting or sucks at painting and is "rancid with rage" about the fact that they can be judged on painting in a competition.

This is immature, inflammatory garbage and it deserves to be called out as such. I am willing to play with coins and flattened beer cans (though I prefer cardboard cutouts because they're more accurately sized). I don't hate or suck at painting. I'm not angry that some competitions judge my painting.

Your generalization is wrong. It is insulting, and it is entirely inappropriate. There is no excuse for it.

Your most recent post puts your point is much more reasonable terms.

Your first post, though--the one to which BuFFo and Grabnutz objected--was trash. Their objections were accurate and legitimate. You just make yourself look bad when you try to defend it by couching a similar position in more reasonable terms. It's good that you have a more reasonable position and that you can express it in a civil and adult fashion, but it doesn't excuse your earlier behavior.

[Bean]

Aldramech

Wiggle out of what?

On page two, Cossack made his first post in this thread. That post was this:


How about "You win. Can we play for fun now?"

Just point 'em up the way they look and play them that way.

On page three, I made my response, which you have quoted above. It's worth noting that the Jeske also made his response on page three.

On page four, I posted this:


No, actually. Again, you are just flatly incorrect. Neither Cossack (the poster to whom the Jeske responded) nor the OP ever mentioned or alluded to cheating at all. You pretty much just fabricated this out of whole cloth.

The second Cossack post you quoted was from page five, well after I made my post.

Cossack didn't mention cheating until after I said that he had not. Prior to my posts, he had not mentioned cheating, and my posts were, therefore, correct. Yours were not.

Again, you are just wrong. You have deliberately misrepresented the facts in order to suggest an erroneous conclusion. You are, in short, still just making stuff up.

I'll accept your appology by private message, if you prefer. ;)


P.S. While you're at it, you probably had better apologize to the community for the other lies you've written in this thread, and to me, specifically, for lying about me (by asserting that I have done things that I haven't done). Honestly, Aldramech, you'd be better off if you just started sticking to the truth instead of trying to make yourself look smart by making stuff up. I can't imagine anyone has much respect for you at this point.

[Aldramelech]

I'll swagger into this one. I prefer to play with people that are flexible. But there are limits. I don't mind proxies or "counts as" for the occasional game. I do mind having to ask every 5 seconds what the heck that unit is or does. It really drives me crazy. I have seen people proxy things because they are cheapskates and don't want to pony up the bucks for 3 uber-units of 10 wraithguard each but using Guardians instead.

The prices of units are a limiting factor in and of themselves. $23 for an Obliterator? Good. Maybe I won't have to face down 9 of them. My opinion-proxy and get crazy with your friends. If I am not your friend and we are playing a pick up game-play what you have and save up for the real models. I have limited play time and prefer to hone my strategies, not ask what the heck that fig is THIS time over and over again. Guess I am an elitest.

This is sense from templarboy. If your playing with friends heavy use of proxies is probably OK, against strangers? Not so sure its a good idea. I think that when you meet some one for the first time and play a competative game is this not already by its nature a socialy awkard situation? Why complecate it?


Yeah, I'm an elistist too. The hobby's about playing games with cool looking collections of figures. And I play mine the way they look.

I can hardly keep track of the details of my own army...there's no way I can remember my opponent's proxies.

And yes I play to win - it's about respecting my opponent. I don't care if I win (the troops just go back into the box), but I try. No rule is worth arguing over though.... And when I see a squad with a plasma gun, then I don't worry about bunching up. Then that plasma gun turns into a proxied 'flamer' (how convenient) and poof....there goes my troops to something that I could have easily mitigated if I just saw it as a flamer. Silly me though, I expected it to actually be a plasma gun. But since I don't fuss about winning I just sit there and take it.

Nope, proxying is for powergamers who seem to need a win to feel good. So okay - "You win. Can we play for fun now?" That means lets just play with the troops they way they look.

Slightly harsh, but if you have had lots of experiance of this happening then understandable. There is a big trust issue with proxies and if you know the person you are playing really well then I think this wouldnt be so much of a problem. Playing a pick up game against a complete stranger? Well you gota earn trust.


Hmm, this is an interesting thread. I have an extensive "counts as" army. Now that being said, I believe there is a significant difference between proxies and counts as. IMHO proxies are things like a flamer being counted as a melta gun, a missile launcher being counted as a lascannon, etc. A "counts as" model is like the one in my army. A high elf dragon, from the fantasy line, being used as a Trygon.

Theme of the army:
Exodite eldar that have forsaken all tech, but instead rely upon the natural way of things. Basically I use some models from several different armies to make mine, and I use the 'Nid Dex
Examples include:
Darkelf Corsairs as Hormagaunts
Spell singers as Zoenthropes
Gladeguard as Termagaunts
All have been mounted on the correct bases and the height of the model is the same as the original if not higher

So from what a few of the folks on the thread have said that they would not play against my army. This army looks great on the table and is incredibly fun to play. My army list always has both the model on the table and the original names so folks know what everything is and everything has a significantly different look to it so nothing can be confused with something else.

So am I cheating? Of course I'm going to say no,but I built this army because I thought it was a cool concept and have received many compliments on it. I have had it aproved for both Bolscon as well as for the previous astronomicon (sadly I had to miss it due to lifetus interuptus).
As for tourneys WYSIWYG is important, and I whole heartily agree that a flamer needs to be a flamer in that setting. An entire counts as army should be able to be played as well, if they are consistent with the model choice/conversion throughout the entire army.

Now in pickup game in a FLGS proxie to your hearts content, I am still gonna play ya, as long as those flamers stay melta and don't suddenly become flamers in the middle of the game. Tho at some some point I will give ya a little flack, if you are not a least trying to replace them. BTW all in good fun. :)

I hope to see everyone at Bolscon, and I look forward to proving some of naysayers wrong about counts as armies.

Again this sounds fiine. This is an example of a well thought out "counts as" army where everything is clearly identified, and with limited explanation can be easily understood by your opponant. This is the upside of the situation, people being creative and using their imagination to create fantastic armies. But this is a world away from the "I proxie because Im a cheapskate" crowd.

Id be interested in seeing pictures by the way.


It'll be a cold day in hell before I take tips on forum decorum from you Buffo, as in my comparatively short time here I've noticed your posts are typically either the "swear and flail" or "sneer and brag" varieties.

Tempted as I am.........



Indeed, they are generalizations - I wouldn't consider them -particularly sweeping, but that's a subjective term anyway. They're generalizations because I would submit they are generally true, and it is for this reason that a generalization is a useful rhetorical tool.


I'd like to add, having noted the nose-wrinkling and the beginning of the emergence of terms like "elitist", that it's possible here to severely miss the point. Ultimately, this is a game we all play for fun, and if for some reason the game you have an option to play won't be fun for you, you don't need to play.

As I said earlier, you can generally divide people into two categories - those who care about how the models look, and those who don't. If you're in the former catagory, you have the right to discriminate between potential opponents and shouldn't feel bad for not playing against Bobby Jean and his army of Bart Simpson Key Ring Marines. If you're in the latter group, if you're interested in expanding your potential sparring partners to encompass the former, you may have to bite the bullet, buy the right models and give them a dash of paint. That's the long and short of it.

Suggesting that one has no desire to play games against proxied or unpainted armies and declining to do so is a choice and a right, though perhaps a mildly absurd limitation of opponents at worst.

Suggesting that one has no right to decline to play heavily proxied armies, or that they are some kind of elitist or bad person for doing so, is an entirely different kind of absurd, several orders of magnitude grander.

Agreed.


There are some kids in my club who do this.

I've seen the same grey plastic SPACE MARINES proxied as necrons, orks, chaos and even tyranids.

My preferences are to NEVER play anyone less than half my age unless they have shown themselves worthy of my attention. Alternatively, if they are unable to go to the bar and buy me a beer, I don't WANT to play them. I joined a wargames club, not a creche, damnit!
If they cheat (common), throw trantrums (sadly, also common) or just be inattentive and lack focus, they don't get to play me.

Excellent! That made me chuckle.

[Aldramelech]

Aldramech

Wiggle out of what?

On page two, Cossack made his first post in this thread. That post was this:



On page three, I made my response, which you have quoted above. It's worth noting that the Jeske also made his response on page three.

On page four, I posted this:



The second Cossack post you quoted was from page five, well after I made my post.

Cossack didn't mention cheating until after I said that he had not. Prior to my posts, he had not mentioned cheating, and my posts were, therefore, correct. Yours were not.

Again, you are just wrong. You have deliberately misrepresented the facts in order to suggest an erroneous conclusion. You are, in short, still just making stuff up.

I'll accept your appology by private message, if you prefer. ;)


P.S. While you're at it, you probably had better apologize to the community for the other lies you've written in this thread, and to me, specifically, for lying about me (by asserting that I have done things that I haven't done). Honestly, Aldramech, you'd be better off if you just started sticking to the truth instead of trying to make yourself look smart by making stuff up. I can't imagine anyone has much respect for you at this point.

You were wrong, I was right, Be a man about it.

I pointed out that cossack was clearly alluding to cheating and you waded in saying that he wasn't.

His subsequent post has proved that was exactly what he was saying and all the fancy, long winded and outraged posts in the world do not change that FACT It is that simple.

Apologize? Lies? I think not my actually. You look pretty silly from here right now.

[Freefall945]

Freefall

While I agree that BuFFo is not a very good role model for internet behavior, he is correct in his assessment of your original post in this thread. It is puerile. You present what could be a reasonable dichotomy, but use language which not only makes it clear that you feel one side is worse than the other, but actually directly insults members of the other side in more than one way. Let's look again at what you actually wrote:

You actually specifically state that everyone who is willing to play "with and against a bunch of coins and flattened bear cans" either hates painting or sucks at painting and is "rancid with rage" about the fact that they can be judged on painting in a competition.

This is immature, inflammatory garbage and it deserves to be called out as such. I am willing to play with coins and flattened beer cans (though I prefer cardboard cutouts because they're more accurately sized). I don't hate or suck at painting. I'm not angry that some competitions judge my painting.

Your generalization is wrong. It is insulting, and it is entirely inappropriate. There is no excuse for it.

Your most recent post puts your point is much more reasonable terms.

Your first post, though--the one to which BuFFo and Grabnutz objected--was trash. Their objections were accurate and legitimate. You just make yourself look bad when you try to defend it by couching a similar position in more reasonable terms. It's good that you have a more reasonable position and that you can express it in a civil and adult fashion, but it doesn't excuse your earlier behavior.

Alright, I'm man enough to admit I was inelegant to the point of offensiveness with my initial post, but I defend its premise.

I don't think it's an incorrect generalization. It's just that - generally true, and to varying degrees. The amount one is visually pleased by a warhammer army has direct relationship with how much effort or expense one expects other gamers to put into their armies. It's not true all the time, but as a generalization, I believe it's accurate.

Incidentally, the rancid with rage comment was alluding to an earlier thread on this board concerning whether or not painting was... yeah, you know the one.

I thought it was pretty clear it was hyperbole, but if it wasn't, I am sorry if I offended anyone.

So, are we cool now?

[Bean]

No, Aldra. I was right. I asserted that he hadn't mentioned cheating and that was true. That we went on to mention it later doesn't change that.

Honestly, this is just getting pathetic, Aldra. Quit digging. There's nothing here that can redeem you.

[Bean]

Alright, I'm man enough to admit I was inelegant to the point of offensiveness with my initial post, but I defend its premise.

I don't think it's an incorrect generalization. It's just that - generally true, and to varying degrees. The amount one is visually pleased by a warhammer army has direct relationship with how much effort or expense one expects other gamers to put into their armies. It's not true all the time, but as a generalization, I believe it's accurate.

Incidentally, the rancid with rage comment was alluding to an earlier thread on this board concerning whether or not painting was... yeah, you know the one.

I thought it was pretty clear it was hyperbole, but if it wasn't, I am sorry if I offended anyone.

So, are we cool now?

I accept your apology and accept that you were exaggerating rather than trying to be offensive. We're cool.

I don't think I agree, though, that it's an accurate generalization. As I said, I proxy armies frequently, and I neither hate painting nor am bad at it. I don't think that painting scores are unacceptable. There are about four other people I play with routinely, and all of them are fine with proxies. Two like painting and are better at it than I am. Two don't like painting and are worse at it than I am. They are similarly split on painting scores at tournaments.

There are three of us that are good at painting and two of us that like it.
Three of us who are alright with painting scores at tournaments, one who's ambivalent, and one who thinks they're inappropriate.
None of the five of us mind proxies.

My data set is pretty limited, but it fails to correlate with your generalization. What sort of data do you have that supports it?

Also, I find a great deal of pleasure in a well-painted army, but I don't expect others to put any particular amount of effort at all into their armies. Again, I don't have much data, but the data I do have contradicts your generalization.

[Aldramelech]

No, Aldra. I was right. I asserted that he hadn't mentioned cheating and that was true. That we went on to mention it later doesn't change that.

Honestly, this is just getting pathetic, Aldra. Quit digging. There's nothing here that can redeem you.

No, I correctly interpreted what he was saying in his oringinal post and you did not.

It was quite clear what he was saying but you chose to assert that was not the meaning of what was being said by trying to be clever and acting like a lawyer, and you were wrong. Now your making yourself look even more foolish by trying to wriggle out of it with "Bull**** baffles brains"

Feel free to hand up that shovel in your hand, your deep enough now.

[Bean]

Never mind, Aldra. Trying to talk to you is like trying to talk to a brick wall.

I'm done with you.

[Freefall945]

I suppose our experiences with gamers simply differ. Naturally I have no accurate poll to draw upon here, so this is all anecdotes and hypothesis, but if I were forced to guess based on my experience with proxies, playing people who proxy, and playing people who highly detail their armies visually... well, I've already stated my position.

My standard gaming circle is a mix of painters and non-painters. I'll try to remember to ask them what they think about painting scores specifically, but I feel I may have tainted the sample.

Two of my friends who were dedicated non-painters are nonetheless very pro-paint, because one day in a fit of enthusiasm I volunteered to paint one's army and then, when it beat my own personal army in the painting section of a local tournament, the second friend impressed upon me a similar favor. Those little scarlet Tau glare up at me even now, demanding highlights.

I remain confident however, that if you polled, a standard group of gamers, you'd find a distinct correlation like the one I've suggested. Not that is is really important or helpful in any way.

[Bean]

Fair. Until I see that poll, though, I think I'm going to reject your generalization and the conclusions you might draw from it. =P

[Freefall945]

Also worth noting that I'm not -entirely- against proxies. Whenever the retro-bug bites my group, a surprised group of Eldar find themselves grubbing through the ruins of Mordheim looking for witches to burn.

Those ruins, however, are cardboard boxes, stacks of books, or incongruously present wrecks of Aquila landers and Imperial Shrines. And these things all detract from my experience in the game.

Convenient as proxies are, they are not, can not be, as enjoyable as the legitimate models, painted and posed on corresponding terrain. That's just how I am, and people like me are, wired.







And now I want to play Mordheim.

[Aldramelech]

Never mind, Aldra. Trying to talk to you is like trying to talk to a brick wall. A brick wall which is also, apparently, a compulsive liar.

I'm done with you. It's not even worth reading the garbage you apparently consider to be communication, at this point.

Thats it is it? Thats all you got now, meaningless insults?

[the jeske]

This is the upside of the situation, people being creative and using their imagination to create fantastic armies. But this is a world away from the "I proxie because Im a cheapskate" crowd.
yes of course because when you use a Wood elfs army as nids in w40k it is being creative [0_0 round bases] and when you use space marines to play BAs your being cheap ... totaly makes sense.

[Jwolf]

I'm so tired of reading people being progressively more insulting to each other. Read what you've written, and if you wouldn't talk that way to your grandmother in front of 100 strangers, consider rewriting your post to be more civil.

Both of you actually have reasonable points to make, but the trash talk and foolish posturing in your posts so heavily outweighs the message that you end up both looking like namecalling jerks instead.

[Grabnutz]

My preferences are to NEVER play anyone less than half my age unless they have shown themselves worthy of my attention. Alternatively, if they are unable to go to the bar and buy me a beer, I don't WANT to play them. I joined a wargames club, not a creche, damnit!

I just love this quote and it immediately made me shoot over to your profile to check your age - unfortunately it wasn't public :)

You see if I applied your rule I wouldn't be able to play anyone under 26, and that would also rule out interacting with 80% of all GW Store Managers :D

I have founded a couple of wargames clubs in my time and each had a lively junior section. They were noisy, argumentative and liable to get into all sorts of scrapes, but we didn't mind. They are the future of the hobby and we don't help them then GW will and turn them into tiny GW Sturmtruppen.

[Aldramelech]

yes of course because when you use a Wood elfs army as nids in w40k it is being creative [0_0 round bases] and when you use space marines to play BAs your being cheap ... totaly makes sense.

Nope, not exactly. Im talking about when some one takes alot of time to think carefully about what they want to do and spend even longer making that a reality. Head on over to Painting and Modeling and look at Miteyheroes "Adeptus Mechancius (counts-as Space Marines)" for a good example of what I mean.

[Renegade]

Well, I will admit I get iffy with proxy and counts as at times. The line is what you are comfortable with. I would have no problem with the OPs situatation, but I would really feal comfortable if it got to a counter etc situation time and again.

As has already been said, its a personal thing that will be different per player, and GW does encourage "counts as" these days.

[Melissia]

Proxying is okay if the models are relatively similar. If I had a choice between a proxied army and a non-proxied army, though, I'd take the latter without hesitation.

But you MUST tell me what each item is before game, and have it written down so you don't change your mind.

[HsojVvad]

Are we not proxing a piece of over priced plastic as a SM? We are proxing as soon as you take out your SM as a SM and putting it on the table. So for anyone saying proxing is no good is doing it them selves.

If you ask a "normal person" who dosn't play any miniture games, and show them a Space Marine mini, would they know a difference between a Tau, Necron or SM? NO to that person it's all the same. It's a plastic toy proxing to be a SM.

So in the end as soon as you start playing a game of 40K you are proxing.

[the jeske]

Im talking about when some one takes alot of time to think carefully about what they want to do and spend even longer making that a reality.
what does time spent on painting/converting an army has to do anything with playing the game . I could buy a studio painted army [or rather beg my wife to paint my csm] , does it make my army more special or better working then a counts as one . How does a master class painted army make it less easy to cheat then one that is table top or even unpainted ? If someone wants to spend hours painting an army or covnerting it [I acutaly do sculpt stuff because I hate the way csm helmets look like] its is his own choice . The proces of plaing w40k the table top game has nothing to do with paiting or converting . If someone wants others to notice how his models look like then he should enter a modeling or converting competition.

[templarboy]

Are we not proxing a piece of over priced plastic as a SM? We are proxing as soon as you take out your SM as a SM and putting it on the table. So for anyone saying proxing is no good is doing it them selves.

If you ask a "normal person" who dosn't play any miniture games, and show them a Space Marine mini, would they know a difference between a Tau, Necron or SM? NO to that person it's all the same. It's a plastic toy proxing to be a SM.

So in the end as soon as you start playing a game of 40K you are proxing.This really is an absurd extreme and isn't furthering your point. By this standard, unless you plan on making a life-sized space marine suit and heading out to find some orks, you are using proxies.

Here is an example of what a pain proxying can be: During a game, my having to ask what in the world that or this model is over and over can tip off my opponent to my strategies and intents. That is unacceptable to me. I shouldn't have to remember every little detail of my opponents army. I should be focused on mine. Can you imagine the confusion that would insue during a big Apoc game?

I have been into table top wargaming since about 1979. I have painted 15mm Napoleonic troops to the idiot extreme of portraying accurate uniform colours for each company and regiment. WYSIWYG is important to me. It always has been. I don't use meltabombs because I can't figure out a way to model them without making it look stupid. If I can't model it, I won't use it. Period. My new Eldar Army is being built sans Warlocks on Jet Bikes. I can't make them look good so I won't use them. Eliteist, aren't I?

Look, it all comes down to why someone is proxying really. I just can't agree with the idea that people proxy because they are being creative or are poor. I see them more as bandwagon jumpers. How many proxy/counts as Blood Angel armies are ya'll seeing? I am seeing quite a few. When the new codex comes out and is, of course,unbalanced, everyone wants to play the new kick butt list. How many proxy Necron armies do you see? Dark Eldar? Dark Angels? I think not. If I had a bunch of DA, I myself would probably use the generic SM list.

Bottom line-I want to play the game that I bought into. I don't want to pit my lovingly assembled and painted army against a tool with bunch of bottle caps and a, usually, non-serious, or crappy attitude. You can assemble a very respectable army on a budget. Please at least make an attempt.:rolleyes:

[Melissia]

This really is an absurd extremeActually, I kinda see his point.

Space Marines are, technically speaking, about twice as tall as a Tau... the models are the same height, however.

[thelonegrif]

im sorry guys but im with freefall archon fuzz bucket and everyone else against proxies on this i bought 11 jetbike 2 farseers and 15 warlock models just to make a 11 man jetbike farseer and retinue i buy harles just for the kisses for my shadow seers if i make a list and think it will do well i will sit at my desk and paint after work till 2am only to get go to formation tired as crap and repeat the next day so i can play WYSIWYG and be as my mentor calls it "pretty" (he had about 13 grand or 25k worth of points worth of chaos and titans most of them unpainted but his APOC record was 15-0-0 and i could never beat him in a normal 2k pts game before he retired after he retired what was left of his stuff went to me for a grand as his chaos was lost to the four winds by a former friend and one of my former mentors)
but i digress another tale for another time
if you cant afford a whole sqd box go find a store that does this 2 of the GW stores here in germany do a bits sale every once in a while and my shop near boston the owner does have a lot of bits that for the most part he will give to you or you can do what i did with my grav tanks serpents vypers and war walkers and magnatize them a pack of 100 rare earth magnets is only $10 and they will work with just just about any model if you have the patients skill and vision to do it

[Grabnutz]

Hi thelonegrif,

I admire both your dedication and your ability to splash the cash to get exactly what you want. But what if you don't have the cash to stump up to GW (or their resellers) for such perfection? What if you have a family to support, but would still like to enjoy your hobby? What if you just don't have the time to spend painting until 2am etc.?

There are a lot of absurd extremes being taken here, mostly as rhetorical tricks. The truth is that many gamers use proxies because they have to in order to explore and enjoy GW's ever expanding and more complex games universe.

For example my CSM's include a lot of converted Havoc miniatures (a short-lived range of plastic SF figures). They were half the price or less than GW's output, but I have taken the time to paint them up and in the case of my plague marines apply copious amounts of green stuff. Most of my vehicles are card scratchbuilds that look pretty similar to the originals. In all about 50% of my CSM infantry and 10% of the vehicles are kosher GW.

The fact is that I am a father of three and work full time so I simply don't have the money to spend on GW's stuff.

So which of you here would play against my CSM's?

Come on sound off - this is your chance to declare where you stand without a lot of circular arguments. Until you answer then there is little point in continuing this discussion is there?

[Hyperion]

Are we not proxing a piece of over priced plastic as a SM? We are proxing as soon as you take out your SM as a SM and putting it on the table. So for anyone saying proxing is no good is doing it them selves.

If you ask a "normal person" who dosn't play any miniture games, and show them a Space Marine mini, would they know a difference between a Tau, Necron or SM? NO to that person it's all the same. It's a plastic toy proxing to be a SM.

So in the end as soon as you start playing a game of 40K you are proxing.

Yes, but it is nice to have a shared frame of reference; after all, the whole point of models looking different is that they act in different ways within the game. If we are proxying, we are doing so to a consensual format which helps the flow of the game... Think of chess being proxied by a checkers set... The point of wysiwyg is that you shouldn't have to ask what a particular model is capable of.

That said, I have no real problem with proxies per se as I use them myself, although in my case I have permanent proxies such as death corp engineers used as stormtroopers or AT-43 figures re-jigged as ogryns: I use these because I like the models and for no other reason. For my own enjoyent of the game I would prefer painted models and proxies that are fairly logical but since I don't do pugs I guess I can be particular.

[BlacknightIII]

One of my friends uses proxy armies very often but he is sensible about it. He has all models of one type count as one thing and if someone has an upgrade he points out who it is and how to tell him apart from the rest of the models. He plays Chaos marines most of his proxied units are the more expensive metal ones. His tanks are what they are. He actually owns the Rhinos and landraiders.

[thelonegrif]

So which of you here would play against my CSM's?

Come on sound off - this is your chance to declare where you stand without a lot of circular arguments. Until you answer then there is little point in continuing this discussion is there?

Honestly i would play against you simply for the fact that you are a new mind to pit myself against i only apply this ridged set of rules to myself simply because i am something a fanatic and if i did it to all my opponents i would have less people to play against especially the younger crowd who will someday direct where this game goes (mostly adults who live upper-middle class and are single or don't have children) i understand whats its like to be married and have a hobby that if you let it it will consume your soul and being a soldier i make a piss poor amount of money the only reason i was able to buy over 10 grand worth of models in under a year was a year in iraq and i played the money market while i was down range being married being over seas i see it as both a blessing and a curse while i love her dearly i wont have her put down her career where if she left for 3 years then try to come back after she probably wouldn't get her job back and ya im not gonna get into the sappy stuff however i am able to stay up till 2 am get up at 6 am and work till 5pm and produce some finely painted models because that is what i choose to do with my time and energy however my wife always comes first in all matters and my hobbies never come before her or what we need for the necessities
ultimately it boils down to how much are you willing to risk and sacrifice for your hobby

[HsojVvad]

So now it comes down to WYSIWYG is it? What about me? I don't know WYSIWYG when it comes to anything in 40K. So you telling me, because I have to play you, it has to be WYSIWYG and you will not tell me what mini is what and what each mini does?

[thelonegrif]

honestly i prefer it but my desire for a the challenge of a new opponent out weighs my desire for perfection so i would play you and i would let you proxy

[Hyperion]

So now it comes down to WYSIWYG is it? What about me? I don't know WYSIWYG when it comes to anything in 40K. So you telling me, because I have to play you, it has to be WYSIWYG and you will not tell me what mini is what and what each mini does?

Nobody is going to tell you you can't ask, at least they shouldn't, the idea is that with a bit of familiarity you shouldn't need to ask because a meltagun will look like a meltagun and be on the model etc. And if you don't know what a meltagun looks like I'd suggest now is as good a time as any to go look it up. Where I get riled with proxies is when the same models represent vastly different things in consecutive games. To take an example, SM representing slightly different SM is ok (if a bit faddish) but SM representing varying genii of 'nids is unfair and confusing especially if last week they were necrons or something else entirely. Incidentally, if you don't know wysiwyg and you are using proxies, how the hell do you expect me to figure out what you got? Also, as I said, I don't do pickup games and I was merely expressing a preference. If you had to play me, however that scenario came to be, I'd probably have convereted and painted most of your army for you and run you through my codex so you knew what the bloody models were...

http://www.battlefield40k.com/gallery/files/3/4/meltagun_r5.jpg I'll even get you started

[Freefall945]

Alright, time to collate some data for the purpose of clarity and quelling curiosities.

Reasons people have submitted for Proxying are as follows (if you don't see one you can think of, feel free to point them out):

1. You Require More Vespene Gas - Not enough money: Some players may be economically impeded from purchasing the right number or type of models to play their desired army (or perhaps any army).

2. Half-Time, Change Sides - Not enough time: Some players may not have enough time to remodel an existing army, or model a new army, and so feel justified in using what proxies are available to them to save time.

3. The Meh Factor - No desire to do any different: Some players simply don't see any value in using a more accurate model, and get zero additional jollies from a game against a painted, appropriate foe.

Feel free to add 4's, 5's and 6's.



Correspondingly, I'd like to suggest for each of these points...

1. Not enough money: If you actually don't have the money for the hobby, I doubt anyone will begrudge you playing with proxies. Keep an eye out for bargains, make up a GW wishlist for your friends to look over at Christmas... Or keep doing what you're doing, securing in the knowledge that you should not feel morally compelled to mortgage your house again to satisfy my need for visually appealing miniatures. That's all. Sorry bro/sis.

2. Not enough time: This one I don't buy. If you have time to PLAY 40k, you probably have time to do the practical hobby element of the game too. You can squeeze in time for an apocalypse game here and there, but you can't find time to put together some spess marines to replace your Orks who have for so long masqueraded as blood angels? If you are so busy you can't squeeze that in ever, I think you should probably... I don't know, quit the hobby altogether, as clearly the world needs every minute of your time it can ever wrap its tendrils around, Mister President! No; I'm betting this reason should really be part of number 3.

3. No desire to do any different: Can't do anything about this. If you really don't get anything at all out of the visuals of this hobby, then... Okay, I guess. There appear to be lots of people of that persuasion, and plenty of opponents who are willing to forgive proxying. But they are not obliged to overlook it, and they may choose to play with you less, or not at all, if they end up staring down the same lego Marneus Calgar every two weeks.

[DarkLink]

Alright, time to collate some data for the purpose of clarity and quelling curiosities.

Reasons people have submitted for Proxying are as follows (if you don't see one you can think of, feel free to point them out):

1. You Require More Vespene Gas - Not enough money: Some players may be economically impeded from purchasing the right number or type of models to play their desired army (or perhaps any army).

2. Half-Time, Change Sides - Not enough time: Some players may not have enough time to remodel an existing army, or model a new army, and so feel justified in using what proxies are available to them to save time.

3. The Meh Factor - No desire to do any different: Some players simply don't see any value in using a more accurate model, and get zero additional jollies from a game against a painted, appropriate foe.

Feel free to add 4's, 5's and 6's.


4)Experimentation - Want to try out new units without having to spend $50 and a hour assembling on a unit you may never use again.

[Freefall945]

4)Experimentation - Want to try out new units without having to spend $50 and a hour assembling on a unit you may never use again.

Excellent! A good point.

Again, I doubt anyone has any problem with people trying out a unit in a few games of experimentation. Havn't we all draw up out most recent 1500 or 1750 or 2000 point list, run it against a friend, and THEN started picking up the models?

When a person starts proxying that list ad nauseum however, we cycle back to number 3.

[Cossack]

I pointed out that cossack was clearly alluding to cheating and you waded in saying that he wasn't..

For the record, I'm not referring to cheating. "Cheating" with proxies would be pointing up a missile launcher as a missile launcher, but shooting it as a lascannon. 'Proxy' would be pointing up a missile launcher as a lascannon and shooting it as a lascannon.

It's definitely not 'cheating'. My example was a plasma gun/flamer proxy. I play Orks and it's disappointing when that happens because if I knew it was a flamer then I could have spread my boyz out. But if I am required to REMEMBER that it's a flamer, then you're asking me to do something for your army that I don't even do to mine! (remember proxies)

And it's typical when players find they are facing orks that their plasma guns become flamers. If I brought out marines, they'd be pointed up as plasma guns again. So it's a bit of power gaming because it must be important to win.

[Melissia]

Then isn't it your own damn fault for not making sure which item was proxied for what before you move?

Yes, your opponent needs to be forthright, but if they are truthful about what they are proxying as what, it's your own damn fault if you screw up because of something like that.

[Mauglum.]

Hi all.
IMO proxies are fine if BOTH players can identify what is what throught the game.We usualy use lists and if need be number the bases just to be sure.

As you may have different opinions on what is aceptable .Just discuss it before you play.
If both players are happy with the level of proxy -WSYWIG , have fun!

TTFN

[TSINI]

to the OP, i think your point was more specifically about pick up games, than gaming in general and of course, the other player should have asked if he could proxy some plague marines with khorne berserkers.

theres no need for any line to be drawn - you don;t turn up to a game expecting to be able to proxy everything. proxying by nature is "play testing" rather than "gaming"

obviously if you're friends and have come to expect this kind of thing, it's a different matter, but in a pick up game against a stranger - its still polite to ask - when you don't have the models - you can't really field them in a pick up game without your opponents permission. and if you are allowed to proxy - so must they be able to, because they too might not have the "awesome unit" that they wanted to field, but now with proxying allowed, they suddenly can!

[erwos]

Proxying is okay if the models are relatively similar. If I had a choice between a proxied army and a non-proxied army, though, I'd take the latter without hesitation.

But you MUST tell me what each item is before game, and have it written down so you don't change your mind.
Agreed. If you want your Basilisk (the only one on the board) to be a Medusa this game, that's acceptable, as they look similar (really, barrel length is the only difference). But when your busted Rhino hull turns into a Manticore, I've got some issues with that. Ditto for "all of my IG HW squads have some other weapon than what they're modeled with." The concept that the responsibility is completely on me to magically remember what something is when it looks NOTHING like what it's modeled as is lame and NOT fun. That, to me, is the problem of heavy proxying outside of anything but between-good-friends games to experiment - you're having more fun at my own expense. That's not something a player with good sportsmanship does, especially at pick-up games.

And you _definitely_ do not get to pull this "I show you my army list at the end, we play secret until then" stuff when you're doing more than trivial proxying. It's on the table for me to see, up front and all the time, even if that's not usually how the group plays. That's to keep me informed and you honest. :)

I have sympathy for lack of money, but like most hobbies, some investment is going to be required to participate. If you don't have the model, _don't field it on a regular basis_. I spent more than a dozen years playing this way, and while it was frustrating, it did give me the proper impetus to actually buy those models when I did have the cash.

[Cossack]

I agree with erwos. And there's really no reason for it unless a player just has to win. Otherwise, why would you do it? Players say they want to 'try out' units....why? Only if you just have to win games to be happy.

For my part, I'm trying to have fun too and it can be a bit frustrating to bring an army that is limited to exactly what is in my collections (and PAINTED) vs. somebody who tailors his army to fight mine by proxying figures (and sometimes trying to glue something together right before the game...what's up with that?).

[erwos]

(and sometimes trying to glue something together right before the game...what's up with that?).
Let me repost something I put on DD about this very subject:

I had a particularly problematic pick-up game of 40k recently with an IG player who:
1. Proxied a Medusa as a broken Rhino (and, in retrospect, fired it indirectly illegally!!!)
2. Proxied a Manticore as a Basilisk.
3. Had 20+ legs on a base as guardsmen. He did this _right before the game_, in the sense that I actually had to wait 10 minutes for him to do it.
4. Proxied every single one of his heavy weapons (as far as I could tell).
5. Had a command squad which had an astropath and and I think a master of the fleet, but not modeled as such.
6. Didn't even have enough guardsmen models to represent all the ones in his transports.
7. And, of course, almost nothing was painted.
8. Actually refused to show me his army list because he "wanted to play secret". This is the one I should not have accepted, looking back.

I, on the other hand, had a WYISWYG Iron Warriors army that was fully painted. I had one proxy terminator (different weapon loadout) because one of the terminators broke in transport, which, honestly, I think is a fair proxy if there ever was one. (Note to self: pack superglue next time!)

[Aldramelech]

Let me repost something I put on DD about this very subject:

I had a particularly problematic pick-up game of 40k recently with an IG player who:
1. Proxied a Medusa as a broken Rhino (and, in retrospect, fired it indirectly illegally!!!)
2. Proxied a Manticore as a Basilisk.
3. Had 20+ legs on a base as guardsmen. He did this _right before the game_, in the sense that I actually had to wait 10 minutes for him to do it.
4. Proxied every single one of his heavy weapons (as far as I could tell).
5. Had a command squad which had an astropath and and I think a master of the fleet, but not modeled as such.
6. Didn't even have enough guardsmen models to represent all the ones in his transports.
7. And, of course, almost nothing was painted.
8. Actually refused to show me his army list because he "wanted to play secret". This is the one I should not have accepted, looking back.

I, on the other hand, had a WYISWYG Iron Warriors army that was fully painted. I had one proxy terminator (different weapon loadout) because one of the terminators broke in transport, which, honestly, I think is a fair proxy if there ever was one. (Note to self: pack superglue next time!)

Should have borowed his glue, sounds like he had plenty! lol

[erwos]

Should have borowed his glue, sounds like he had plenty! lol
Believe it or not, I did think of that. Unfortunately, it was that glue for plastics, whereas my CSM terminator was the old 2E version made of metal. Wouldn't stick!

[Aldramelech]

Believe it or not, I did think of that. Unfortunately, it was that glue for plastics, whereas my CSM terminator was the old 2E version made of metal. Wouldn't stick!

Ahhh, Zhis would be zhe lore of zhe sod, no? :)

[BlindGunn]

I'll skip the comments made already and just add my own thoughts here.

I think Proxying has it place and is justifiable for certain reasons (testing new armies/units/weapons being most popular I've seen). I don't think I've ever had anyone proxy more than a unit and a couple of vehicles at a time though. Never the entire army of Eldar made of Space Marines.

I've had the experience of someone using the "Old-Coke-Can-as-a-Model" once - very bad form as I'm addicted to Coca-Cola. I kept confusing it with my drink and tried to drink from it multiple times...

So I definitely lean towards "using proxies is ok, but not ANYTHING can be a proxy" sort of person. I need to be able to identify it at a glance to be able to allow a proxy - even if it's just a piece of paper saying "Space Marine with Flamer". An actual model is better, but I've been tolerant in the past.

The real problem I have with Proxies is when the person stops realizing that they ARE Proxies.

My very first Warhammer tournament (3rd edition I think), very first game, and the opponent I fought had countless archers in his Empire Army. All of them Halfling Archers (legal way back then), but NOT ONE Halfling Model! IN a WYSIWYG tournament! He had humans, High Elves, Skeletons, etc - but no Halflings!

Since then, I have seen people bring to WYSIWYG touraments:
- Wesley Crusher Action Figure with a cardboard axe taped to his hand to be used as a "Giant"
- Beautifully painted Hive Tyrant, with (ripped) paper wings taped to the back
- Various Tonka Toys and other manufacturers as assorted vehicles with a GW weapon taped onto it
- multiple incidents of correct models with wrong weapons

So I've adopted the attitude of encouraging players who use proxies to test, then build/create/adapt ASAP. Some of my own Blood Claws have had their hand weapons modified at least twice now - each time due to codex changes, since 2nd Edition 40k.

It's not that I hate Proxies, but rather that it becomes a bad habit sometimes and people will try and take it too far - even up into tournament settings. At that point, they become angry and/or disillusioned with the hobby because they'll get kicked out or loose any chance of placing well in the tournament (some tournaments have allowed proxies as long as their opponents don't mind, others have let them play - just without the offending model(s)).

For those people who can't afford "more models", I'm sympathetic and (having too many bits in my Bits Box) I've supplied a few parts and models to people who need to make modifications. I've handed out sprues and even the occassional kit, as gift or trade. I've seen other gamers paint Beserkers into Plague Marines, then Back again. I've even seen some beautiful custom builds of vehicles where, yes, it started as a Tonka Toy, but by the time it was done, it LOOKED GOOD and deserved to be on the table!

I think that's the key - encouraging effort into making the right changes and helping those who need assistance so people want to fight your army.

For those people who don't ever want to be bothered getting the proper models, I may play them once in a while. If they persist, I suppose I would feel cheated as all the effort I put into making the correct units and others I have helped feels like a wasted effort. But I don't recall ever getting that feeling with anyone. Everyone I've ever played on a semi-regular basis has updated their army models to match their lists. Some of them just take longer due to "real life" commitments than others.

Has anyone out there who plays met up with anyone with proxies who has refused to update their models ever?

[HsojVvad]

Nobody is going to tell you you can't ask, at least they shouldn't, the idea is that with a bit of familiarity you shouldn't need to ask because a meltagun will look like a meltagun and be on the model etc. And if you don't know what a meltagun looks like I'd suggest now is as good a time as any to go look it up. Where I get riled with proxies is when the same models represent vastly different things in consecutive games. To take an example, SM representing slightly different SM is ok (if a bit faddish) but SM representing varying genii of 'nids is unfair and confusing especially if last week they were necrons or something else entirely. Incidentally, if you don't know wysiwyg and you are using proxies, how the hell do you expect me to figure out what you got? Also, as I said, I don't do pickup games and I was merely expressing a preference. If you had to play me, however that scenario came to be, I'd probably have convereted and painted most of your army for you and run you through my codex so you knew what the bloody models were...

http://www.battlefield40k.com/gallery/files/3/4/meltagun_r5.jpg I'll even get you started

Thanks, so that is what a melta looks like eh?

I can see where you are coming from, but it goes both ways. If I am allowed to ask since I don't know WYSIWYG, wouldn't it just be the same to re-ask what that proxy unit is again?

Also seeing a SM as a SM one game then seeing that same SM as an Elder the next game and then seeing that SM as an Ork the next game can be confusing? I thought most people here are really smart and this would be a moot point. If you are told before the game what is what, and then ask again if you forget, (like me, I never remember what is what :D) it shouldn't make a difference.

If you know what every thing in 40K is WYSIWYG, then you have played the game enough and an SM being an Elder one game and then an Ork in another game shouldn't make a difference now because you already know what is what.

I can understand you will enjoy it more if you play an Elder you want it to look like an Elder instead of a SM. If that is the case, just say it. I can fully understand, and I believe most people can understand that too. That is your enjoyment and you have a right not to play me then. But I also have a right to play my SM anyway I seem to choose. If I want them as DE then they are DE. I just say the DE stole the SM equipment and using them. They just use the rules from codex DE that's all.

But I do see and understand where you are coming from. :)

[HsojVvad]

theres no need for any line to be drawn - you don;t turn up to a game expecting to be able to proxy everything. proxying by nature is "play testing" rather than "gaming"


Not to pick on you, but who are you to say that? GW says proxing is perfectly fine.

Who are you to say proxying is "play testing" rather than "gaming"?

I have played a few games with proxies and it was gaming, not play testing.

So I have to say this statement is quite false.

[MVBrandt]

The other day my friend and i played a game of 40k.

This should answer your own question.

If you can only tolerate playing people with fully painted wysiwyg armies, play only in tournaments that require it.

[Xas]

everyone can draw the line wherever they want.

if you dont like your oponent proxying or playing with unpainted/unbased figures it is ok to simply not play against them.

it is as ok if you are just playing with paper-circles and print outs of tank-squares.


whatever suits you is what you should strive to find in your close gaming group.


personally I find a fully and well painted 100% WYSIWYG army to be the most enjoying to play with and against.

still a good 95% of my games include many unpainted/proxy miniatures (also used by myself) as it definatelly isnt fun to clean and paint something you are only useing once in a while (as long as it isn a beatifull titan :) ).

what I hate is when people proxy without telling you and you find out mid game that a falcon is supposed to be a fireprism or a flamer is supposed to be a meltagun. that prolly is the only thing that can make me angry in terms of proxy (not telling beforehand).

so keep peace and just make shure both you and your oponent have the same understanding.

[HsojVvad]

what I hate is when people proxy without telling you and you find out mid game that a falcon is supposed to be a fireprism or a flamer is supposed to be a meltagun. that prolly is the only thing that can make me angry in terms of proxy (not telling beforehand).

so keep peace and just make shure both you and your oponent have the same understanding.

If this is the case, this should never ever be allowed. I am shure it is strongly considered good sportsmanship or encouraged in the BRB that you see your opponents list before the game even starts, so there is no excuse for shock in the game.

A flamer should never ever at the begining of the game be a melta gun and then mid game become a las gun or what ever. What you have in your list is what you play with.

I don't understand something, when you guys play games, don't you see the other persons list before the start of the game? I thought this was a must, so we don't have these magical transporting weapons and units being turned into something else.

[BlindGunn]

I don't understand something, when you guys play games, don't you see the other persons list before the start of the game? I thought this was a must, so we don't have these magical transporting weapons and units being turned into something else.
I usually play without checking over my opponent's list. I like the "surprise" it gives me - a little "Fog of War". Most of the time I play, my opponents don't ask to see my list either, so I don't know if it's a "house rule" or just a general preference around here. So, looking for Specific weapons, combos and such - no - I don't usually check.

We do usually specify what units are in certain transports by placing a model from the unit on the Transport or verbally telling out opponents in advance before or as they are deployed.

It seems to be fairly common here.

The only times I've really discussed lists in advance is if we're unsure about certain rules and want to make sure we're in agreement before the game starts, or if someone wants me to bring a specific character/unit/list so they can practice (usually in prep for a tournament).

BUT - it's a preference, not a ruling.

[DarkLink]

I don't understand something, when you guys play games, don't you see the other persons list before the start of the game? I thought this was a must, so we don't have these magical transporting weapons and units being turned into something else.

I trust the people I play with, so I usually don't bother. We sometimes don't even write down lists, other than adding up points costs and the like.

[Hyperion]

Thanks, so that is what a melta looks like eh?

I can see where you are coming from, but it goes both ways. If I am allowed to ask since I don't know WYSIWYG, wouldn't it just be the same to re-ask what that proxy unit is again?

Also seeing a SM as a SM one game then seeing that same SM as an Elder the next game and then seeing that SM as an Ork the next game can be confusing? I thought most people here are really smart and this would be a moot point. If you are told before the game what is what, and then ask again if you forget, (like me, I never remember what is what :D) it shouldn't make a difference.

If you know what every thing in 40K is WYSIWYG, then you have played the game enough and an SM being an Elder one game and then an Ork in another game shouldn't make a difference now because you already know what is what.

I can understand you will enjoy it more if you play an Elder you want it to look like an Elder instead of a SM. If that is the case, just say it. I can fully understand, and I believe most people can understand that too. That is your enjoyment and you have a right not to play me then. But I also have a right to play my SM anyway I seem to choose. If I want them as DE then they are DE. I just say the DE stole the SM equipment and using them. They just use the rules from codex DE that's all.

But I do see and understand where you are coming from. :)

I was just messing with you a bit there. To be honest, you could wrap yourself in tinfoil and proxy a titan if you wanted... I do feel it breaks the atmosphere but that's purely as in my group wargames are a sort of extended roleplaying where we like the story aspect...

[Grabnutz]

With regards to lists in our group we all produce them, but more for our own reference than our opponents.

Generally before the game starts we describe what we are bringing and make damn sure our opponent knows if we are proxying something and which model it is. If we are unsure what the opponent has in a unit we ask and get a full answer.

Simple good manners really.

[Grabnutz]

Another reason for proxying... having to fight with more points than you have.

Not all of us have the money to have 2,500 points of troops (much to GW's chagrin no doubt) in each army we possess. So occasionally I will put an army on the table in which the balance is proxied.

As I don't play tournaments this isn't generally an issue, and I always use proxies that are recognizable as what they are representing.

For example I have fielded a Tau force with very good card figures to expand the battleline, and Imperial Guard. The card figures look exactly like what they are proxying.

Given the increasing costs of running GW armies - especially their crass attempts to make us buy more miniatures by adding rules supplements (Apocalypse and Spearhead to name but two) , and my simple inability to keep up, I shall probably be adding more card figures and vehicles.

My friends don't mind, so it's not a problem. Would you find it a problem if I turned up to play you with 1,500 points of GW plastic and another 500 pts of card models?

[Aldramelech]

Another reason for proxying... having to fight with more points than you have.

Not all of us have the money to have 2,500 points of troops (much to GW's chagrin no doubt) in each army we possess. So occasionally I will put an army on the table in which the balance is proxied.

As I don't play tournaments this isn't generally an issue, and I always use proxies that are recognizable as what they are representing.

For example I have fielded a Tau force with very good card figures to expand the battleline, and Imperial Guard. The card figures look exactly like what they are proxying.

Given the increasing costs of running GW armies - especially their crass attempts to make us buy more miniatures by adding rules supplements (Apocalypse and Spearhead to name but two) , and my simple inability to keep up, I shall probably be adding more card figures and vehicles.

My friends don't mind, so it's not a problem. Would you find it a problem if I turned up to play you with 1,500 points of GW plastic and another 500 pts of card models?

Yes.

But as I have already said, my club only plays with painted figures. We have as group decided that a certain standard is required. There are a couple of reasons for this.

1/ This is what we all enjoy
2/ We have as a group decided that we will promote raising standards in the hobby. We are old school wargamers and in our area there are plenty of other clubs where this is acceptable, so if thats your thing thats where you go.

I myself am married and have a child. I earn a modest income and my wife who works with blind disabled children earns even less. I also work fairly long hours and shifts. So I don't have massive amounts of money to spend or loads of time to paint and yet I will turn out a fully painted army once or twice a year.

I make shrewd purchases on Ebay or at bring and buys at local shows. This keeps costs down. If I cant afford something like the new 8th WFB rules then I save up or wait for Christmas.

With regards to painting I make the time. I will paint for an hour a day, sometimes I do more, sometimes none at all. You would be surprised what you can achieve with that little. Like I said, at least one army a year and sometimes two.

Nothing will be played with until it is finished. This is an incentive to finish. I believe in exercising this kind of self control is no bad thing either. Have a plan and stick to it.

In my personal opinion, and it is my personal opinion, there is far too much instant gratification in the hobby as a whole, with people fliting between this army and that at the drop of a hat. If people spent more time on their armies they'd give them a bit more thought and wouldn't need to try out new things they cant afford every five minutes. Again, my personal opinion, and one that I usually keep to myself.

This the environment I game in. If I was to leave that environment and go along to my local GW to play (I do sometimes but very, very rarely) then I can not expect to impose those standards on anybody else or whine about it. So to a certain extent I think you have to tailor your attitude to your environment.

[erwos]

My friends don't mind, so it's not a problem. Would you find it a problem if I turned up to play you with 1,500 points of GW plastic and another 500 pts of card models?
This is something of "it depends". If this was the first time you did it and the card models were low in number (eg, vehicles), I'd probably let it slide. But if you made a habit of it, no, I'd tell you to field the 1500 points you have, and I'll cut down my list to 1500 points (or pull out my 1500 point list).

[Chris Copeland]

There is one more kind of proxy model that deserves attention: the one that you stick into the force that is made by another company, fits the bill, and you use because it is just a better model.

To be fair, this comes up more often in Fantasy Battles than it does in 40K. There are several companies out there putting out better fantasy models than GW (I'm looking at you Reaper). I know a lot of players who cheerfully replace their GW special characters with more characterful minis by Reaper and other companies.

If I come across any such minis that would supplement my Tyranid army I will happily do the same in 40K... I'll make sure they are kitted properly, painted, and as WYSIWYG as possible... but I won't think twice about customizing my army with non-GW models. There are too many great minis out there!

Outside of playing in a Tourney that has GW prize support (and I TOTALLY understand that they'd want you to only play with GW minis if they are putting up the prizes) I can't see that using such proxies would ever be a problem.

In San Antonio we have two Indy GT events per year: the Alamo GT and the Alamo 40K GT... at both events the organizers make it clear that no particular company's models are required (i.e. feel free to proxy in other minis from other companies). GW isn't footing the bill for the Alamo GTs so that seems right to me.

The kind of proxies I don't like: non models. I once saw a guy put a soda can on a table and call it a carnifex... that's over the line in my book. Cheers...

[Freefall945]

Another reason for proxying... having to fight with more points than you have.


Absolutely. Sometimes this comes up, and in a game between friends, I doubt anyone would begrudge a touch of proxy.

Personally, I'm inclined to dodge it whenever I can, however. If I need to fill out my army with more points, I'll use whatever is available. I have 30 rangers floating around from when Alaitoc was my thing; they occasionally get air time when someone wants a game over the 2000 points of Eldar I have in my take-all-comers list.

[Mystery.Shadow]

I need to be able to identify it at a glance to be able to allow a proxy - even if it's just a piece of paper saying "Space Marine with Flamer".

How about this?

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Apocalypse/01010639.JPG.html

Does this count as WYSIWYG?

[HsojVvad]

Well I wanted to play Tyranids, but since my wife and son wanted Orks, I bought an Ork battleforce. Well since loosing my job, and money is a problem, I wanted to use the Ork Trukk as a Tevrigon and all the Orknids it spits out would be the Orks but "count's as Gaunts". I would be using the bikes then as Hive guard since it was long and skinny.

Sometimes you got to do with what you have and make do with what you got. We can still have a fun game playing. I even made up some fluf for as to why it is.

But from what I see, some people wouldn't have fun, and I would be ok if you wouldn't game with me. But do not dare berate me and tell me how this game is suppose to be played. Once you say how the game is supposed to be played, you better prove it, and we all know you can't prove it. You can't quote nothing, you can't show no page numbers or anything like that.

[BlindGunn]

How about this?

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Apocalypse/01010639.JPG.html

Does this count as WYSIWYG?
As a friendly game, trying out new things, sure. :D

At a tournament setting - no! :mad:

(Sadly, I'm blind enough I can't read the writing on the Falcon - I assume it's legible?) :confused:

[Grabnutz]

In my personal opinion, and it is my personal opinion, there is far too much instant gratification in the hobby as a whole, with people fliting between this army and that at the drop of a hat. If people spent more time on their armies they'd give them a bit more thought and wouldn't need to try out new things they cant afford every five minutes. Again, my personal opinion, and one that I usually keep to myself.

Instant gratification in a hobby where even a small but playable force is going to cost you in excess of £100? Personally I come from a generation where the watchwords were 'make do and mend'.

Thus I will continue to have to field armies that may well have a few proxies from time to time to either make up the points or to let me try things before I buy them.

There again the very poor rule control at GW means that what is a reasonable unit to buy in one edition becomes a crock of sherbet in the next, necessitating more purchases. Another reason to proxy.

[Grabnutz]

There is one more kind of proxy model that deserves attention: the one that you stick into the force that is made by another company, fits the bill, and you use because it is just a better model.

I couldn't agree more Chris, especially since the plastic moulding company Renedra began offering sub-contract mould making and production for independent sculptors at a reasonable cost. So now we have new companies like Mantic Games and Wargames Factory pouring out top class product at prices that must be making GW management scream with despair.

And don't forget our old faithfuls like EM-4. I recently purchased 150 (that is one hundred and fifty folks) plastic 28mm fantasy dwarves in three poses (Big Axe, Spear and Crossbow) for, wait for it, £22.50. Sure they ain't state of the art, but they are honest clean sculpts that take paint very well. Added to the dwarves I got in the Skull Pass box and a few metals I have hanging around and I can field 2,500 points for three-fourths of beggar all.

They also do plastic orcs, and a variety of plastic SF figures for equally silly prices.

So unless you intend to spend your life on the GW tournament scene you can get by a hell of a lot cheaper if your friends don't mind you proxying with non-GW but WYSIWYG figures.

I shall now turn myself into the Inquisition on a charge of copyright heresy...:D

[Kirsten]

Using other companies is always good, Rackham in particular do some beautiful models, I made a slaanesh and a nurgle daemon prince out of a couple of their models. By and large however personally I prefer GW's design style to other companies I have seen so far, which does leave me a little scuppered if a race's troops are poor (looking at you high elves) as I cannot find suitable alternatives. If you see an alternative that you like more, go for it. You can't claim they are better though, it is too subjective. GW have cornered the table top market for a good reason. I can understand them not wanting other people's models in their own tournaments, but otherwise there is nothing wrong with it, I bet many GW game designers play other systems too and appreciate the skills involved.

[Aldramelech]

I couldn't agree more Chris, especially since the plastic moulding company Renedra began offering sub-contract mould making and production for independent sculptors at a reasonable cost. So now we have new companies like Mantic Games and Wargames Factory pouring out top class product at prices that must be making GW management scream with despair.

And don't forget our old faithfuls like EM-4. I recently purchased 150 (that is one hundred and fifty folks) plastic 28mm fantasy dwarves in three poses (Big Axe, Spear and Crossbow) for, wait for it, £22.50. Sure they ain't state of the art, but they are honest clean sculpts that take paint very well. Added to the dwarves I got in the Skull Pass box and a few metals I have hanging around and I can field 2,500 points for three-fourths of beggar all.

They also do plastic orcs, and a variety of plastic SF figures for equally silly prices.

So unless you intend to spend your life on the GW tournament scene you can get by a hell of a lot cheaper if your friends don't mind you proxying with non-GW but WYSIWYG figures.

I shall now turn myself into the Inquisition on a charge of copyright heresy...:D

I also agree with this. Nowt wrong in using non GW, lots to choose from. But that is not Proxing.

I have no problems with other manufactorers as long as the model is what it is supposed to be.

[Chris Copeland]

Hmmmm? How is that not proxying? It is there very definition of proxying: this one model stands in as a proxy for another model.

I recently saw a "Bag O' Chthulu" for sale at my local game shop. I keep thinking they'd make cool Zoanthropes. I may well buy 'em, base 'em, and play with them as Zoanthropes just because I think the models are cool... if I do so I'll be "proxying."

Cheers.

[Aldramelech]

Hmmmm? How is that not proxying? It is there very definition of proxying: this one model stands in as a proxy for another model.

I recently saw a "Bag O' Chthulu" for sale at my local game shop. I keep thinking they'd make cool Zoanthropes. I may well buy 'em, base 'em, and play with them as Zoanthropes just because I think the models are cool... if I do so I'll be "proxying."

Cheers.

Noooo, if you buy a dwarf, its a dwarf no matter who made it, If you then say this dwarf is a Space Marine, then its proxied.

[Freefall945]

Lil' bit of semantics here, but in essense Aldra is right.

The issue of Proxying, atleast the one that is being described in this thread's now quite lengthly discussion, is specifically the use of an inappropriate model to represent a unit in game, where as the kind of proxying that you are talking about Chris is the use of an external range's model, which is nonetheless appropriate, to represent a unit in game.

I doubt many players would have an enormous amount of problem with you using your El Cheapo dwarf models in most cases, or the Cthuloid Zoanthropes as long as they look the part. If you wanted to use dwarves to proxy a zoanthrope, or zoanthropes to proxy dwarves, then we'd have problems, brother.

Technically you might be correct that your kind of model use is proxying, but it's certainly not what most people mean when they are saying the word.

[erwos]

So long as they clearly represent what they represent, I would strongly encourage folks to use whatever miniatures ranges they want.

For instance, I was planning on using the new Wargames Factory shock troopers for the infantry of my traitor IG company - they look way more the part than what GW makes, their weapons look vaguely like shotguns, and they're cheaper to boot. I'll have to buy some meltaguns and such from GW directly to keep them WYSIWYG, but they're such a better option that it's hard to just ignore them. (Plus, it helps the competition, which is always a good thing.)

Will I be able to use them in an official GW tournament? Well, no. But it is extremely difficult for me to envision any reasonable opponent in a pick-up game objecting to them simply because they're not from GW.

[lordbubonicus]

I make shrewd purchases on Ebay or at bring and buys at local shows. This keeps costs down. If I cant afford something like the new 8th WFB rules then I save up or wait for Christmas.

So do I. However, this does mean that sometimes, for example when I wish to try out a unit that I have yet to save up for, I need to proxy something instead.


In my personal opinion, and it is my personal opinion, there is far too much instant gratification in the hobby as a whole, with people fliting between this army and that at the drop of a hat. If people spent more time on their armies they'd give them a bit more thought and wouldn't need to try out new things they cant afford every five minutes. Again, my personal opinion, and one that I usually keep to myself.

This seems to be to be a bit of a black and white statement, and assumes that people who proxy only do so because they have short attention spans and only want to play 'the new shiny army'. However, what happens if, like me, you play two armies exclusively for a long time, spending a lot of time on them and putting some thought into them? Coupled with my smallish collection (see my first point) this means that I occasionally fancy a change of pace and wish to try something new. Since my playgroup is small, it doesn't contain every army. IN fact it contains a lot of overlap in armies. Therefore I can't always borrow what I wish to try out, and must proxy. After playing the same two armies for many years, I get a bit bored.

It seems to me that your points are somewhat contradictory. You seem to be irritated with people who try out things that they can't afford, yet also talk about keeping costs down. Surely if you do the latter, then the former situation must arise at some point, particularly for those of us whose income is not particularly large?

Having said all of this, I do only play with my friends, not at GW stores. So the issue of proxying is one that we just tend to deal with by discussing what's in the lists at the start of the game. After all, the point, for us, is to have some fun.

[Aldramelech]

Like I said, my opinion. I didnt imagine for a second it would be a popular one, but thats what I think.

If I want to try something new then I do it at home, on paper and roll some dice. I think about situations and test it out, then I purchase on the strength of that.

Im not saying its the right way or the wrong way, but it is my way.

[Mr.MoreTanks]

One thing to note, I understand that not everyone has the time or money to keep buying all the new stuff that comes out, and yes i have had lots of fun in proxy games but that doesnt make me cheap when I expect someone to get the correct models when they have been proxing for like 4 years, or at least guys armed with the right weapons. I understand that the point is to have fun, especially during pick up games, but is it fun whne you just proxy whatever you want and have your opponent use only what models he/she actually has available to them? Just some food for thought.

[Melissia]

Indeed, one should hold the same standard to oneself...

[Hyperion]

So long as they clearly represent what they represent, I would strongly encourage folks to use whatever miniatures ranges they want.

For instance, I was planning on using the new Wargames Factory shock troopers for the infantry of my traitor IG company - they look way more the part than what GW makes, their weapons look vaguely like shotguns, and they're cheaper to boot. I'll have to buy some meltaguns and such from GW directly to keep them WYSIWYG, but they're such a better option that it's hard to just ignore them. (Plus, it helps the competition, which is always a good thing.)

Will I be able to use them in an official GW tournament? Well, no. But it is extremely difficult for me to envision any reasonable opponent in a pick-up game objecting to them simply because they're not from GW.

Those are not half bad!

[MarshalAdamar]

Everyone is different but I think that if you got into a hobby about building and painting miniatures then you should freakin paint them.

When GW promotes Warhammer they don’t say it’s a great strategy table top game where you proxy official models with snack foods and you can but we do not recommend that you actually paint them. So when you decided to get into the hobby its not like you didn’t know what it was all about.

It might take a while to paint your army because we all have lives outside Warhammer, but I think everyone seems to have a little more fun when playing against a fully painted army. (Maybe not, but it seems that way)

I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who said, “Really? A fully painted and based army? Don’t you have an unpainted; proxy heavy army with you? I just can’t get into all those painted models”

And let’s be honest neither have you.

I've seen super cool things like a grot killing a terminator in close combat, but I feel that had that not happened with two beautifully painted minis it would have lost a little something. Picture the battle in progress… Then imagine someone saying

“OH MAN! My penny (counts as a grot) just killed your 40mm base (counts as a terminator)! THAT’S HILARIOUS!!

It really does just lose something.

I think there is a middle ground, I don’t mind proxies; I even LIKE some. I have a friend who has pig iron models that he uses as Inquisitorial Storm troopers and they look awesome! He also has some really cool ultraforge daemons that are just great! So Proxies are not necessarily a bad thing.

And if someone wants to try out a unit before buying it or converting it that perfectly fine. But at some point please buy and or convert and PAINT the frickin model.

And for those nay sayer’s who proclaim, “It’s my hobby and no one can tell me how to do it”

That is true, but in the real world it still sucks to have to play against people who bring a sack of pennies to play a freaking game of Warhammer

I think the point of the game is have fun above all else, so if you and your buddies all hate painting GREAT, then play each other and have a great time. If you and your buddies like using potato chips to proxy cavalry GREAT have fun. BUT if you want to play in the world at large, please, for the love of all that is good, paint your mini’s. Even badly painted mini’s are better than bare plastic minis.

[Melissia]

Everyone is different but I think that if you got into a hobby about building and painting miniatures then you should freakin paint them.

That's funny, I Didn't get into a hobby about building and painting miniatures.

I got into a hobby about an army of laser-toting conscripts with tanks fighting off wave after wave of green-skinned mushroom-men techno-barbarians.

[Old_Paladin]

Everyone is different but I think that if you got into a hobby about building and painting miniatures then you should freakin paint them.

Even badly painted mini’s are better than bare plastic minis.

I have to say that I got into this hobby because of the great stories; the gameplay is just a weak extention of fluff.

I have problems with people that only seem so focus on a single aspect of the hobby and then try to force that opinion on others; whether it's the people that only think playing and winning matter to the people that demand everyone paints. It's a HOBBY! Everything counts. If you want to be an artist or golden demon winner, to a gamer that tries to take 'ard boyz; that's fine, but differen't people enjoy different things, so just let them enjoy what they want.
Would you mock someone that enjoyed chess but only has a dollar store set; and say that they don't count as a chess hobbiest until they get an engraved crystal or other beautifully crafted set? Or would you liked to be mocked if you spent $700 on a set that you found stunning, but you aren't a very good player?


For your last point... well, I guess you haven't seen poor painting then.
I've seen plenty of armies that would look a LOT better if they just stayed grey or silver (with the nice details still visable). But they still have every right to play.

[razcalking]

That's funny, I Didn't get into a hobby about building and painting miniatures.

I got into a hobby about an army of laser-toting conscripts with tanks fighting off wave after wave of green-skinned mushroom-men techno-barbarians.

Were they all grey?

[the jeske]

Would you mock someone that enjoyed chess but only has a dollar store set; and say that they don't count as a chess hobbiest until they get an engraved crystal or other beautifully crafted set?
yes. chess makes good money . If they go to tournaments and dont have a good set , they are either noobs , bad players or both at the same time.


Or would you liked to be mocked if you spent $700 on a set that you found stunning, but you aren't a very good player?
nope if you have enough money to buy a 700 bucks set you are either a very good player or rich and no one ever talks bad about rich people at tournaments .

[Melissia]

Or maybe they just have better things to spend their money on.

I dunno, food?

[BlacknightIII]

Or perhaps they are like me and have a habit or dropping and chipping the crystal pieces and decided to stick with a 20 dollar wooden one.

[HsojVvad]

oops, wrong thread.

[scadugenga]

Um...wasn't the painting vs. nonpainting argument...that way?

I thought this was all about crazy/crappy proxies and stuff?

[Aldramelech]

Um...wasn't the painting vs. nonpainting argument...that way?

I thought this was all about crazy/crappy proxies and stuff?

Agreed. The war of the brush is taking place elsewhere.

[HsojVvad]

:o oops, reading so many pages back and forth, I forgot wich one I was in. Sorry.

[Freefall945]

Um...wasn't the painting vs. nonpainting argument...that way?

I thought this was all about crazy/crappy proxies and stuff?

To be fair, I made a bridging comment, rudely postulating that the issues were extremely similar in substance and supporters.

[Melissia]

Which they are.

[Aldramelech]

Which they are.

But how many threads do we need so people can argue about painted figures? I feel one is quite enough.

[Freefall945]

But how many threads do we need so people can argue about painted figures? I feel one is quite enough.

Apparently, it's not!

[Gotthammer]

Indeed, how many threads? Where do we draw the line on that?

We should have a thread to work it out.

[Daemonette666]

No you are not alone.I do not mind if an opponent proxies miniatures, or even if they are only undercoated. Just as long as they have identified what is what, and preferably use something that is close to what it should be.

I also do not mind if an opponent uses an old army, such as the Kroot mercenaries, as long as they go through the rules for them. In friendly games at home, if my opponent agrees, I use my BOLS Mini-Dex 5th edition Adeptus Arbites based army.

It is fun to play games with something new now and then, as long as you both agree it is just a fun game. Wiin or lose, I hate games where a player winges loudly that they were cheated by the gaming gods because the dice rolled badly throws dice or their miniatures on the floor etc, or if your opponent gloats about their win, and not just to you, but to everyone.

I know someone who plays at the Sydney City GW Battle Bunker who does this every time he wins, and I ignore him when he tries to tell me how he beat someone in his last game. Yes, before you mention it, I have told him I do not like him telling me his stories, or even want to play against him while he continues to do this.

But that is diverging from the main thread, It is up to you and your opponent what the house rules or club rules are. Most people agree, that trying out a new troop type, or even an entirely new army and using proxies for them is OK as long as they actually go out and buy the miniatures for the unit or army after that, and stop proxying other models for them, and make it clearl exactly what each model represents. In other words, no nasty surprises - " Oh, he has a Multi-Melta on him, didn't I tell you?".

Might I suggest to your friend that it might be a good opportunity for him/her to try their hand at converting. Green stuff, and a new paint job can change a Khorne Berserker into a Plague Marine. It could be a project you both could work on. maybe challenge yourselves to converting up some of your old units that are not as much anymore into something you want to use in your army.

Just remember, have fun, keep it friendly, and of course "Slaanesh Rules"

[MarshalAdamar]

That's funny, I Didn't get into a hobby about building and painting miniatures.

I got into a hobby about an army of laser-toting conscripts with tanks fighting off wave after wave of green-skinned mushroom-men techno-barbarians.

Then you did not pay any attention to the fact that the hobby is based around models that you have to assemble, and the fact that the company that makes this hobby has its own freaking paints and brushes.

hmmmmm

REALLY?@! You thought it was weird that there were all these paints and brushes and washes and primer cans in the Warhammer 40k area? All these books from GW on how to paint their miniatures, all these guides on what paint schemes went with which armies, war bands and craft worlds? It escaped notice that all these PAINTING accoutrements were from freaking GW?

OK

I’m never going to tell someone that they HAVE to do anything. But to try and pretend that painting is just something that snobby elitist pigs do so they can look down their noses at other hobbyist is starting to grate on my nerves.

[MarshalAdamar]

I have to say that I got into this hobby because of the great stories; the game play is just a weak extension of fluff.

I have problems with people that only seem so focus on a single aspect of the hobby and then try to force that opinion on others; whether it's the people that only think playing and winning matter to the people that demand everyone paints. It's a HOBBY! Everything counts. If you want to be an artist or golden demon winner, to a gamer that tries to take 'ard boyz; that's fine, but different people enjoy different things, so just let them enjoy what they want.
Would you mock someone that enjoyed chess but only has a dollar store set; and say that they don't count as a chess hobbyist until they get an engraved crystal or other beautifully crafted set? Or would you liked to be mocked if you spent $700 on a set that you found stunning, but you aren't a very good player?


For your last point... well, I guess you haven't seen poor painting then.
I've seen plenty of armies that would look a LOT better if they just stayed grey or silver (with the nice details still visible). But they still have every right to play.

To the first point, if you only like the fluff then why play the table top game. There are plenty of books full of fluff. If playing the game is not important to you then why play?

I'm assuming that you are talking about your personal preference of fluff over game play.

But we've gotten off topic so I won't rant on.

In short I have no problem with being friends with or playing with people who have non painting or poorly painted armies (not everyone is a good painter) and not everyone who likes to paint and thinks it’s an important part of the hobby is an elitist snob.

[MarshalAdamar]

And finally to Melissia, I apologize if I was a bit snarky.

[Aldramelech]

Then you did not pay any attention to the fact that the hobby is based around models that you have to assemble, and the fact that the company that makes this hobby has its own freaking paints and brushes.

hmmmmm

REALLY?@! You thought it was weird that there were all these paints and brushes and washes and primer cans in the Warhammer 40k area? All these books from GW on how to paint their miniatures, all these guides on what paint schemes went with which armies, war bands and craft worlds? It escaped notice that all these PAINTING accoutrements were from freaking GW?

OK

I’m never going to tell someone that they HAVE to do anything. But to try and pretend that painting is just something that snobby elitist pigs do so they can look down their noses at other hobbyist is starting to grate on my nerves.

Is he right? He's not wrong..........

[DarkLink]

I’m never going to tell someone that they HAVE to do anything. But to try and pretend that painting is just something that snobby elitist pigs do so they can look down their noses at other hobbyist is starting to grate on my nerves.

Forcing someone to paint is only something that snobby elitist pigs. Enjoying painting does not make someone a snobby, elitist pig. Acting rude and condescending to anyone who doesn't paint does. No one has claimed anything but that as far as I can tell.


Is he right? He's not wrong..........

He did miss the point, though.

[Melissia]

Then you did not pay any attention to the factWhat fact?

Yes, GW sells miniatures, and paintbrushes, and templates, and paints and whatever. You don't need any of that to enjoy the 40k hobby-- or are you going to tell me that I can't properly enjoy the 40k hobby unless I buy one of THEIR laser pointers? OH NO, HOW DARE YOU NOT BUY THE NECRON CODEX, GW SELLS IT YOU MUST BUY! Trying to claim that painting is the only aspect of the hobby that matters to everyone is stupid, and also stupid, and then some more stupid for good measure.

[Cossack]

I'm perfectly willing to fight a two-front war. It's up to y'all though.

I would like an agreement that "Yes, the miniatures should be painted" if that's possible.

[Melissia]

I'm perfectly willing to fight a two-front war. It's up to y'all though.

I would like an agreement that "Yes, the miniatures should be painted" if that's possible.
And I'd like an agreement that you should stop being an elitist. I don't care if the miniatures are painted.

What matters is the attitude of my opponent.

[HsojVvad]

I'm perfectly willing to fight a two-front war. It's up to y'all though.

I would like an agreement that "Yes, the miniatures should be painted" if that's possible.

Yes I can agree with you, that miniatures should be painted if possible.

But for what ever reason, laziness, no time, don't like to paint, too busy what ever, it is not mandatory to have your minis painted.

I can agree with you Cossack, can you agree with me that its not mandatory to do so, but would be nice if it were though.

[Kirsten]

Then you did not pay any attention to the fact that the hobby is based around models that you have to assemble, and the fact that the company that makes this hobby has its own freaking paints and brushes.


Not necessarily, the hobby isn't based around anything, you do what you want with it, to whatever extent you want. It is like saying that the game is based around maths, maths is what enables play, it doesn't have to be the sole purpose of the game. Likewise painting your figures can make the battles more dramatic and more immersive, but it doesn't mean the battles are about painting. People can take whatever they want from the game, they might only like assembling and/or painting models and not playing at all, they might hate the assembly and painting and buy figures purely for gaming. The player who loves the fluff might game expressly to create new fluff, to enact battles and seek secrets, to build story driven missions and reenactments. Nobody can tell anyone else what the hobby is about, because it isn't about any one thing. Which is why this argument is going to go round and round like it was written by M C Escher.

[Rusty Nail]

I'm perfectly willing to fight a two-front war. It's up to y'all though.

I would like an agreement that "Yes, the miniatures should be painted" if that's possible.

How about "Yes, miniatures should be painted if you want to"?

Oh and Kirsten you are a genius, you've said pretty much what I wanted to say using less than 20% of the words I was going to use - thank you for saving me the time and effort.

Tom

[Cossack]

What if I decided that points limits were just a "guideline" and not that important to me? What's an extra 100-200 points or whatever? (In my opinion it's cheating) My point if sticking to the point value is important to my opponent, I should respect it and stick to it myself.

[MarshalAdamar]

What fact?

Yes, GW sells miniatures, and paintbrushes, and templates, and paints and whatever. You don't need any of that to enjoy the 40k hobby-- or are you going to tell me that I can't properly enjoy the 40k hobby unless I buy one of THEIR laser pointers? OH NO, HOW DARE YOU NOT BUY THE NECRON CODEX, GW SELLS IT YOU MUST BUY! Trying to claim that painting is the only aspect of the hobby that matters to everyone is stupid, and also stupid, and then some more stupid for good measure.

Really?? Your position is that you do not need dice or Templates, Tape measure or even a rule book to enjoy War hammer 40K as a hobby?

I’m not saying you can’t ENJOY the 40k hobby with out a GW tape measure, I’m saying you can PLAY war hammer 40k with out A tape measure let alone enjoy it.

I submit that if you think you can ENJOY the War hammer 40K hobby with out any of those things, I submit that you are not really IN the War hammer 40K hobby.

It’s a war-game first and foremost for that you need those things (most of them) so if you show up with a box of packing peanuts to proxy your dark elder army who’s codex you don’t have to measure distance with a pack of hot dogs I’d say your on a different planet than the rest of us in the hobby.

Side, note. Yes if you plan on playing Necrons I would say you have to have their codex or I might call mulligan.

And for the record I never said that painting was the only aspect of the hobby.

Why does it seem that everyone who gnashes their teeth rends some sack cloth over in the “I don’t want to paint” camp is the person saying that fluff or collecting bare plastic models is the only aspect of the hobby?

I don’t think I’ve found anyone on here who has said that painting is the only aspect of the hobby. Indeed most of us have said that all the parts are good, fluff, painting, war gaming (some of us use with non GW tape measures) But for the Fluff crowd we’re accused of only liking painting.

??

But to get into a hobby that is quite clearly about assembling, modeling, painting and war gamming then try and say that you don’t need glue, tape measures, paint or rule books to enjoy the hobby…

Well that’s just patently ridiculous.

I have nothing against your hobby but if your statement is true you and I just are not in the same hobby.

[MarshalAdamar]

Yes I can agree with you, that miniatures should be painted if possible.

But for what ever reason, laziness, no time, don't like to paint, too busy what ever, it is not mandatory to have your minis painted.

I can agree with you Cossack, can you agree with me that its not mandatory to do so, but would be nice if it were though.

I believe that is all the majority of people who like painting have said.

Most of use would like it if our opponents painted their minis. Most of use would encourage others to paint their minis but if you just can't and you still want to play thats ok, we can still play a game and have fun.

[Cossack]

No, I can't agree that painting is optional. I'd prefer that players using unpainted figures feel that, in the back of their mind, they really should get around to painting those figures.

It's interesting that when a game store or tourney REQUIRES painted figures, players that were 'too busy' to paint seem to find time.

[scadugenga]

What if I decided that points limits were just a "guideline" and not that important to me? What's an extra 100-200 points or whatever? (In my opinion it's cheating) My point if sticking to the point value is important to my opponent, I should respect it and stick to it myself.

Armies based on points are a decided rule of the game.

Show me, with citations, where exactly it says the game requires painted mini's. Or that the game requires GW mini's.

I can tell you straight away that my Rogue Trader rulebook makes no such assumption. In fact, quite the opposite, as they provide counters for gameplay use.

Wait....wait..I know, I'm bringing logic and facts into a painting/proxy argument...bad scadugenga, no biscuit!

[Kirsten]

Oh and Kirsten you are a genius, you've said pretty much what I wanted to say using less than 20% of the words I was going to use - thank you for saving me the time and effort.

Tom

My pleasure


It’s a war-game first and foremost

Why does it seem that everyone who gnashes their teeth rends some sack cloth over in the “I don’t want to paint” camp is the person saying that fluff or collecting bare plastic models is the only aspect of the hobby?


No, it is a hobby first and foremost. Plenty of people involved in GW never play a game in their lives.

Nobody in 'I don't want to paint' camp has suggested that bare plastic is the only way, everyone on this side has said it is a way, and a perfectly valid one.


No, I can't agree that painting is optional.

Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, your agreement or lack of does not alter the truth.

[MarshalAdamar]

Armies based on points are a decided rule of the game.

Show me, with citations, where exactly it says the game requires painted mini's. Or that the game requires GW mini's.

I can tell you straight away that my Rogue Trader rulebook makes no such assumption. In fact, quite the opposite, as they provide counters for gameplay use.

Wait....wait..I know, I'm bringing logic and facts into a painting/proxy argument...bad scadugenga, no biscuit!

You are also bringing a way out of print game system into the discussion. If rouge trader had counters or rules for counters then cool, use them. But what people are discussing here is no rouge trader we're talking about the current WH40k game.

Othewise, my hungry, hungry hippo game makes no such assumptions either (and though I did not paint them they are painted, each a different color no less)

But then again we're not talking hungry river horses here either.

On a side note, since you’re bad and you're not get that biscuit… can I have it?

Soooooo Hungry (lilke my hippos)

[Kirsten]

rouge trader

I think rouge trader is a very different game, and illegal in most countries :p

[MarshalAdamar]

[QUOTE=Kirsten;86777]
No, it is a hobby first and foremost. Plenty of people involved in GW never play a game in their lives./QUOTE]


?? Who are these people, the only people I know who don't play the game are people who are not in the hobby...

Thats like saying that you don't scuba dive, I don't like the water, I'm not certified and I don't want to be, I don't have time to learn but I LOVE those flippers, those are awesome! I have 9 pairs of flippers.

No one is going to agree that you are in or even like the hobby scuba diving. You certainly can collect flippers. Which I guess makes you a flipper collector not a scuba diver. And the fact of the matter is that no matter how much you say its YOUR hobby, its just not because you don't do it and you don't like anything that makes suba diving well... scuba diving.

Just because you collect models from the GW range, that is not the warhamer 40k hobby. And saying it is doesn't make it so.

I totally respect your right to collect whatever you want in any way you want to paint it not at all. But lets not confuse collecting something with an entire hobby.

If I collected running shoes I would not be someone who can claim that one of my hobbies is running.

[HsojVvad]

No, I can't agree that painting is optional. I'd prefer that players using unpainted figures feel that, in the back of their mind, they really should get around to painting those figures.

It's interesting that when a game store or tourney REQUIRES painted figures, players that were 'too busy' to paint seem to find time.

Well you are wrong my friend then if you say painting is no optional. Yours is an opnion, but not the way.

Since you are saying painting is a requirement. I think you need to loose some weight so you are not a burden on the health care. You can't even stand up for a game and have to sit down. Loose some weight man. How can I enjoy a game with someone sitting down all the time? Also wearing a hat? Come on, where is your manners. Havn't anyone told you, that you can't wear a hat indoors?

Geez I can't even lie. Unlike you I can't mean what I say, but I hope you see where I am coming from. You can't tell people that you have to paint. Otherwise you have people out there, who say you should be loosing weight because you are a burden on the health care system. I am surprised you have such a high standard for gaming, that you have to sit down when you game, and you are pretty ignorant, because you are you let your friend wear a hat indoors. That is a no-no.Wearing a hat indoors is rude.

I can see you will not change your mind, you are to stubborn. There is having an opnion and acknowlladge someones elses debate, but you don't even acknowladge our opnions. Some of us agreed with you, about having painted mins, but this is not about painted minis anymore. This is about telling people what they have to do.

So if people are suppose to paint their minis, then you need to loose weight and not sit down all the time when you have a game.

All you keep saying is you are right. Take a step back and see if you can be wrong. I have taken that step back and rethought my stance, and came to agree yes it would be nice to play with a fully painted army, but it's not manditory to do wo.

Having a discussion against a wall will not accomplish anything. I see talking to you my friend, you are the wall. It will not accomplish anything trying to talk to you because you still keep labeling people without the facts. I have now stooped to your level and I don't like it. Time for me to stop commenting to you from now on.

The way you talk, is bigoted, and rascist. It's a shame, you were a nice guy at first, but I see your true colours now. If this is how strongly you feel about unpainted armies and you have such a low view on people who do this, what do you think about others then?

Again, just look in the mirror. You are not much of a good looking perosn. You are overweight. I can say this because I am the same as well. But at least I do not think myself above other people and I am better than them.

I will say it. You are better than me. You are a better geek than me. You are a better looser than me.

It's a shame, I thought I would have had a good time with you for a game and company as a person. But I can see I am not worthy enough for you. Because of that, you think you are better than me, fine, think that. I will not waste any more time responding to you. I would say I feel so sorry for you, but you are to pathectic to be felt sorry for you.

You are too arogant, pig head, stubborn, bigoted rascist person, and I do not want to play with you either now.

Time for me not to bother responding to anything you say. I find anything you have to say has no meaning at all now.

[MarshalAdamar]

Well you are wrong my friend then if you say painting is no optional. Yours is an opnion, but not the way.

Since you are saying painting is a requirement. I think you need to loose some weight so you are not a burden on the health care. You can't even stand up for a game and have to sit down. Loose some weight man. How can I enjoy a game with someone sitting down all the time? Also wearing a hat? Come on, where is your manners. Havn't anyone told you, that you can't wear a hat indoors?

Geez I can't even lie. Unlike you I can't mean what I say, but I hope you see where I am coming from. You can't tell people that you have to paint. Otherwise you have people out there, who say you should be loosing weight because you are a burden on the health care system. I am surprised you have such a high standard for gaming, that you have to sit down when you game, and you are pretty ignorant, because you are you let your friend wear a hat indoors. That is a no-no.Wearing a hat indoors is rude.

I can see you will not change your mind, you are to stubborn. There is having an opnion and acknowlladge someones elses debate, but you don't even acknowladge our opnions. Some of us agreed with you, about having painted mins, but this is not about painted minis anymore. This is about telling people what they have to do.

So if people are suppose to paint their minis, then you need to loose weight and not sit down all the time when you have a game.

All you keep saying is you are right. Take a step back and see if you can be wrong. I have taken that step back and rethought my stance, and came to agree yes it would be nice to play with a fully painted army, but it's not manditory to do wo.

Having a discussion against a wall will not accomplish anything. I see talking to you my friend, you are the wall. It will not accomplish anything trying to talk to you because you still keep labeling people without the facts. I have now stooped to your level and I don't like it. Time for me to stop commenting to you from now on.

The way you talk, is bigoted, and rascist. It's a shame, you were a nice guy at first, but I see your true colours now. If this is how strongly you feel about unpainted armies and you have such a low view on people who do this, what do you think about others then?

Again, just look in the mirror. You are not much of a good looking perosn. You are overweight. I can say this because I am the same as well. But at least I do not think myself above other people and I am better than them.

I will say it. You are better than me. You are a better geek than me. You are a better looser than me.

It's a shame, I thought I would have had a good time with you for a game and company as a person. But I can see I am not worthy enough for you. Because of that, you think you are better than me, fine, think that. I will not waste any more time responding to you. I would say I feel so sorry for you, but you are to pathectic to be felt sorry for you.

You are too arogant, pig head, stubborn, bigoted rascist person, and I do not want to play with you either now.

Time for me not to bother responding to anything you say. I find anything you have to say has no meaning at all now.

WOW, I just have to comment on this one and come do the defense of Cossack here.

First, you claimed that “The way you talk, is bigoted, and racist” If you could please back that up with something resembling a fact that would be great.

If not I respectfully ask that you bathe in petroleum jelly and set yourself on fire.

That was so far out of bounds I don’t know where to start to rant. First, your argument makes no sense what so ever. From painted minis are not part of the game our rambling tour guide of stupidity takes us to the town of “loose some weight so you are not a burden on the health care.” Then down South to the next stop on the idiot express; the rolling hills of “Havn’t anyone told you, that you can’t wear a hat indoors?”

Those are both quotes from you…

They must not battle to the death in a cage match of lamest associations ever.

But you go on and ramble (to someone who has not yet posted to your comment) that during your delusional rant you have decided that this person is not listening to you as you type and cannot be talked to and this is a waste of your time.

I submit that the only time wasted is the time used up posting your idiotic rant when you could have been rendering animal fat to cover yourself in before you set fire to your hair.

When you start calling people bigots and racists its gets under my skin, I have not seen any one on this board come anywhere near a label like that; and that you would shows that you either need to grow up considerably or that you wear your football helmet when riding to school.

Here endeth the rant.

[Melissia]

Really?? Your position is that you do not need dice or Templates, Tape measure or even a rule book to enjoy War hammer 40K as a hobby?


Yes. (Fwww.fantasyflightgames.com)

It is. (http://www.blacklibrary.com/)

[DarkLink]

First, you claimed that “The way you talk, is bigoted, and racist” If you could please back that up with something resembling a fact that would be great.

I guess the logic behind it is similar, in that both a racist and a hobby stalinist (heh, I like that term) are arbitrarily biased against those who are different from them in one form or another, without any particularly good reasons. But yeah, I don't think they really fit on the same scale.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% opposed to Cossack's 'everyone should paint because I say so' attitude. But I don't have a problem with him personally, nor do I have any good reason to. He just has an opinion that I am ideologically opposed to.

[scadugenga]

You are also bringing a way out of print game system into the discussion. If rouge trader had counters or rules for counters then cool, use them. But what people are discussing here is no rouge trader we're talking about the current WH40k game.

Othewise, my hungry, hungry hippo game makes not such assumptions either (and though I did not paint them they are painted, each a different color no less)

But then again we're not talking hungry river horses here either.

On a side note, since you’re bad and you're not get that biscuit… can I have it?

Soooooo Hungry (lilke my hippos)

What I brought to the discussion was the original intentions as compared to the current rules set. It's the same game. (You know, when the game mattered more than the minis.) However, even in the 5th edition rules on pages vi-vii, it states that you need 1) an opponent 2) battlefield, 3) two armies. That's it. It says nowhere that you need two painted armies. ;) Nor does it even say that the armies need to be of GW origins.

But...this is still waay off topic to what the OP was addressing. The painting melee rages that way...http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=86587&posted=1#post86587

And yeah, have the biscuit. Just means more sit-ups anyways. ;P

[MarshalAdamar]

Yes. (Fwww.fantasyflightgames.com)

I do. (http://www.blacklibrary.com/)

I totally support your right to see the world as it isn't and be happy.

But that statement is wrong. And that’s not something I say much. Its sort of like saying I don't need a foot ball, two teams or any of the rules of football to take my tennis racket and go play a game of football.

You can't; just like you can't play chess with out using the rules of chess and have a chess board and all the pieces.

You could SAY you were playing chess with your invisible friends on the invisible chess board with your house rules of non chess, absolutely. But sadly its not chess you’re playing.

So dance to the beat of your own drum, cool. Tell me that you can play a game with established rules with out those rules and I'll just tell you that you're not playing the same game.

Just because I call sky diving water ballet does not make it so.

It’s like something out of the 4 year old rules for life book. It is so ‘cause I said so!

And you just smile and pat them on their precious little heads and say, yes dear it’s so… And as you close the door to the play room, you smile and nod knowingly to your significant other; because if your kid doesn’t not grow out of that you’ll have to institutionalize them.

So all I can say is "yes dear it's so"

[Melissia]

But that statement is wrong.

Nope. The "40k hobby" is more than just wargaming, and only a ignorant would claim that's all it is.

If you want to try and tell me that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch aren't part of the hobby, you will NEVER succeed in making that argument because YOU are wrong. And then of course there's Dawn of War 1 and 2, and soon there will be Space Marine as well, and the 40k MMO.

The "40k hobby" is more than just your skewed, limited view of it. For that matter, these licensed works are much more profitable than GW's own products, so they are a huge boon to the hobby.

[MarshalAdamar]

What I brought to the discussion was the original intentions as compared to the current rules set. It's the same game. (You know, when the game mattered more than the minis.) However, even in the 5th edition rules on pages vi-vii, it states that you need 1) an opponent 2) battlefield, 3) two armies. That's it. It says nowhere that you need two painted armies. ;) Nor does it even say that the armies need to be of GW origins.

But...this is still waay off topic to what the OP was addressing. The painting melee rages that way...http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=86587&posted=1#post86587

And yeah, have the biscuit. Just means more sit-ups anyways. ;P

Point taken, I can see what you're saying based on the origins of the game. But I think that it’s moved very deliberately in the direction of painting and converting as a big part of the hobby.

But I will concede the point about playing the game, there is no "rule" written that says you have to have painted minis or even GW minis for friendly games. This I suspect that GW puts in there simply because there is no way to enforce it in friendly games.

But the official GW tourney rules certainly make not bones about having to have all minis 50.0000001% GW So I think they would if they could make it a rule to play with GW mini's only.

(Not that I agree with that, I don't) but I think GW would do it if they could.

See there, I can be reasonable; you presented me with the rule book entry and solid information and did not once call me a douche bag

I will accept your biscuit with grace and thank you kindly for it.

[Cossack]

*Standing applause for Marshal Adamar*

[MarshalAdamar]

I guess the logic behind it is similar, in that both a racist and a hobby stalinist (heh, I like that term) are arbitrarily biased against those who are different from them in one form or another, without any particularly good reasons. But yeah, I don't think they really fit on the same scale.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% opposed to Cossack's 'everyone should paint because I say so' attitude. But I don't have a problem with him personally, nor do I have any good reason to. He just has an opinion that I am ideologically opposed to.

To make the statement "You are like some hobby Stalinist" which I do like Kudos to you, I'll have use that one, that'is cool. Hobby "German politcal party of the 1940's" (stupid filter) whatever. Its draws a comparison between ideologies

But IF I said Darklink the post you made shows me that you are bigot and a racist!

I feel you would be offended, deeply offended. Our football helmet wearing poster was not making so eloquent a comparison but trying to say that if I think you should paint your minis for the betterment of man kind I'm a racist and or a bigot.

First of all that’s just stupid because I have no idea what race you are, so I could be hating on my own master race and not know it and that would cause a paradox of hatred that could unravel the fabric of reality.

But I digress.

Your point is well made but I don't believe that McDouche was working on that level.

I HAD to work the word douche into at least one post tonight.

[scadugenga]

I totally support your right to see the world as it isn't and be happy.

But that statement is wrong. And that’s not something I say much. Its sort of like saying I don't need a foot ball, two teams or any of the rules of football to take my tennis racket and go play a game of football.

You can't; just like you can't play chess with out using the rules of chess and have a chess board and all the pieces.

You could SAY you were playing chess with your invisible friends on the invisible chess board with your house rules of non chess, absolutely. But sadly its not chess you’re playing.

So dance to the beat of your own drum, cool. Tell me that you can play a game with established rules with out those rules and I'll just tell you that you're not playing the same game.

Just because I call sky diving water ballet does not make it so.

It’s like something out of the 4 year old rules for life book. It is so ‘cause I said so!

And you just smile and pat them on their precious little heads and say, yes dear it’s so… And as you close the door to the play room, you smile and nod knowingly to your significant other; because if your kid doesn’t not grow out of that you’ll have to institutionalize them.

So all I can say is "yes dear it's so"

Dude, you're getting out of line on this. Melissia has a point, one that you completely overlooked re: the 40k hobby because you're zoned in on 40k the miniatures wargame. (Which, honestly, is something that's very easy to do. I'm just as guilty of that as the next person.)

40k has completely eclipsed it's origins of table top toy soldiers. There are videogames, vassal clients, movies, books, cosplay (shudder) roleplaying games, and boardgames that have zero to do with painting miniatures for the table top. I also know people (like my wife) that have zero interest in playing toy soldiers, but enjoy painting them.* That's also part of the hobby. (*Okay, it may just be that she enjoys spending time with me, since she's about as non-gamer as you can get. Outside of Wii Sports/Sports Resort, Tetris & Ms. Pacman, that is.)

Be that as it may--lets avoid personal attacks, neh?


Point taken, I can see what you're saying based on the origins of the game. But I think that it’s moved very deliberately in the direction of painting and converting as a big part of the hobby.

But I will concede the point about playing the game, there is no "rule" written that says you have to have painted minis or even GW minis for friendly games. This I suspect that GW puts in there simply because there is no way to enforce it in friendly games.

But the official GW tourney rules certainly make not bones about having to have all minis 50.0000001% GW So I think they would if they could make it a rule to play with GW mini's only.

(Not that I agree with that, I don't) but I think GW would do it if they could.

See there, I can be reasonable; you presented me with the rule book entry and solid information and did not once call me a douche bag

GW Tourneys are a whole 'nother bag entirely. It's their playground then, and you play by their rules. :)

I try to avoid personal attacks/name calling. It's usually counter-productive. Though there are some people that really do push buttons. :)

[Aldramelech]

Well you are wrong my friend then if you say painting is no optional. Yours is an opnion, but not the way.

Since you are saying painting is a requirement. I think you need to loose some weight so you are not a burden on the health care. You can't even stand up for a game and have to sit down. Loose some weight man. How can I enjoy a game with someone sitting down all the time? Also wearing a hat? Come on, where is your manners. Havn't anyone told you, that you can't wear a hat indoors?

Geez I can't even lie. Unlike you I can't mean what I say, but I hope you see where I am coming from. You can't tell people that you have to paint. Otherwise you have people out there, who say you should be loosing weight because you are a burden on the health care system. I am surprised you have such a high standard for gaming, that you have to sit down when you game, and you are pretty ignorant, because you are you let your friend wear a hat indoors. That is a no-no.Wearing a hat indoors is rude.

I can see you will not change your mind, you are to stubborn. There is having an opnion and acknowlladge someones elses debate, but you don't even acknowladge our opnions. Some of us agreed with you, about having painted mins, but this is not about painted minis anymore. This is about telling people what they have to do.

So if people are suppose to paint their minis, then you need to loose weight and not sit down all the time when you have a game.

All you keep saying is you are right. Take a step back and see if you can be wrong. I have taken that step back and rethought my stance, and came to agree yes it would be nice to play with a fully painted army, but it's not manditory to do wo.

Having a discussion against a wall will not accomplish anything. I see talking to you my friend, you are the wall. It will not accomplish anything trying to talk to you because you still keep labeling people without the facts. I have now stooped to your level and I don't like it. Time for me to stop commenting to you from now on.

The way you talk, is bigoted, and rascist. It's a shame, you were a nice guy at first, but I see your true colours now. If this is how strongly you feel about unpainted armies and you have such a low view on people who do this, what do you think about others then?

Again, just look in the mirror. You are not much of a good looking perosn. You are overweight. I can say this because I am the same as well. But at least I do not think myself above other people and I am better than them.

I will say it. You are better than me. You are a better geek than me. You are a better looser than me.

It's a shame, I thought I would have had a good time with you for a game and company as a person. But I can see I am not worthy enough for you. Because of that, you think you are better than me, fine, think that. I will not waste any more time responding to you. I would say I feel so sorry for you, but you are to pathectic to be felt sorry for you.

You are too arogant, pig head, stubborn, bigoted rascist person, and I do not want to play with you either now.

Time for me not to bother responding to anything you say. I find anything you have to say has no meaning at all now.

How are you getting on my tits? Well posts like that for starters. Drinking and the internet do not mix son.

[Freefall945]

Good grief! Is it as clear to everyone else as it is to me? A few things.

1. It is incredibly obvious that the latest blast of conflict in this threat is entirely semantic. There is no dictionary definition of "The Warhammer 40k Hobby". It doesn't necessarily include painting, or computer games. It doesn't necessarily exclude rat juggling, or writhing on one's back in a searing pool of tar. All we can do is try to make a reasonable call on what someone is talking about when they talk about the 40k hobby, and if we are wrong about what they mean, we just go... "Oh, he means just the miniatures bit", or "Clearly, she has not experienced the glee of playing 40k whilst enjoying searing tar". That's it! No one wins! There is no such thing as The Warhammer 40,000 hobby! There are hobbies, things you do for the satisfaction of doing them and not for any kind of profit, and there is Warhammer 40,000, which is a wargame with miniatures which encourages painting, has spin off computer games, and apparently a self-flagellation fan base. So... you know, chill.


2. What the hell? Racist and bigot? Who brought this crap in here? Who was so inflamed about proxies that they extrapolated their opponent must also commit hate crimes? For goodness sake. I would almost prefer actual racial insults to this. All hell might break loose but it would have a reason for doing so. Crying racist wolf is the quickest way to smear our perfectly fine corner of the internet in the bubbling mess that engulfs the rest of it. Check your rhetoric. Be clear, even be firm, but don't spit in the eye of everyone scrolling down this topic with this kind of arm flailing foolishness.

3. Remember that no one is forcing anyone to do anything! No one is "forcing" anyone to paint armies, and more than anyone is forced to strip their models to the grey. There is no force here. Some of us are acting like someone is going to run out and jam a resolution through the UN that dictates in international law that playing with Grey Marines is a warcrime. They're not! This is the internet! Nothing will issue forth from here that will impact your life in any way!

Just... disagree like adults, and try not to overstate. Or this happens.

[MarshalAdamar]

Nope. The "40k hobby" is more than just war gaming, and only a ignorant would claim that's all it is.

If you want to try and tell me that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch aren't part of the hobby, you will NEVER succeed in making that argument because YOU are wrong. And then of course there's Dawn of War 1 and 2, and soon there will be Space Marine as well, and the 40k MMO.

The "40k hobby" is more than just your skewed, limited view of it. For that matter, these licensed works are much more profitable than GW's own products, so they are a huge boon to the hobby.

HMMM, I can see the point you’re trying to make. I was making reference to only the war gaming aspect of War hammer and War hammer 40K, perhaps too focused to fully see what your point was.

In my defense though this discussion started out over proxy models and painting, and I submit that whether you play any or all of the aforementioned games it has no bearing on whether painting is part of the hobby. I would submit that if you got the models you're in the "war gaming" part of the "hobby"

But I digress again.

I will concede with gracious abandon that you are correct, that if you like the War hammer or 40k "realms" you may indeed be sheltered in the umbrella of the entire "hobby" But I would submit that if you only play Dawn of war, you might be a video gamer, rather than a 40K hobbyist. But that depends on the individual more than the game.

I would also say that my view is not skewed, for the discussion at hand it was focused on what everyone was discussing, and limited to the salient point.

But none the less you are correct in you’re over arching point that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch and give it to you with no hard feelings.

I can’t hate on anyone that plays killer nuns.

I offer my hand in friendship and hope that you can accept my apologies if I was too personal with some of my comments, I do not intend to offend (except for that guy that called Cossack a bigot, that still irks me)

[Evil-Termite]

I draw a sort of slanted line. If you are worse than me, I will allow more proxies. If you are about my skill level, I will allow 1 or 2 but they better not be upgrading a rhino to a vindicator. If you are better than me, you better be all the way WYSIWYG and ALL of your models better be built and not broken.

There is another sliding scale for me. If I'm desperate to get a game in, you can proxy more models. If I've already played 6 games this month, then I'm more choosy.

And now for the firm line I draw always.
What ever you are using for a proxy, we play the model as it is. If I can see it, I can shoot at it. If you miss the charge because you proxied a land raider as a rhino and can't run all the way around it... too bad. If your skimmer is 1/2" off the ground, your guys can't shoot under it. If it's 4" off the ground, my plasma will pierce your infantry armor with no cover saves.

[Cossack]

That's an interesting point about 'allow'....

My gaming philosophy is this: You play your army, and I'll play mine.

That means YOU move your troops using whatever rules you feel are appropriate. YOU shoot at what you think you can hit. YOU roll dice however you want and reroll cocked dice if YOU think it's the thing to do.

Then on my turn I'll play my army using the rules as I understand them.

Nobody plays my army for me. Nobody tells me what I can or cannot have in my army list. Nobody tells me I can't do something that I think the rules allow me to do. And I extend the same courtesy to my opponents.

And guess what - it's always a great game, always a nail biter, and I take photos and write a battle report so we can enjoy it afterwards.

I have other gaming philosophies, but they're not related to actual gameplay...except maybe the one where if I sit my butt in a chair on one side of the table and win the die roll to choose sides, I ALWAYS choose the side I'm sitting on.

[scadugenga]

I offer my hand in friendship and hope that you can accept my apologies if I was too personal with some of my comments, I do not intend to offend

Goodonya.

If people were more willing to embrace differences there'd be a lot less drama and quasi-hooliganism. ;)

You ever end up in the chi-town area, drop a line and the first drink's on me.

[MarshalAdamar]

Goodonya.

If people were more willing to embrace differences there'd be a lot less drama and quasi-hooliganism. ;)

You ever end up in the chi-town area, drop a line and the first drink's on me.

I just might take you up on that!

I live in Indianapolis so I'm not too far away and some day I would like to see an honest to goodness GW Store. I hear there is one up there.

:D

[scadugenga]

I just might take you up on that!

I live in Indianapolis so I'm not too far away and some day I would like to see an honest to goodness GW Store. I hear there is one up there.

:D

Ah, and if only I'd be going to Gencon this year...

There is the Battle Bunker--and while not nearly as good as it used to be (staffing cuts, crappy closing time and removal of all non--40k/WFB/LotR stuff) it's still pretty impressive for a games store.

Just don't ever try to order FW from them. It's a nightmare. :)

[HsojVvad]

I guess the logic behind it is similar, in that both a racist and a hobby stalinist (heh, I like that term) are arbitrarily biased against those who are different from them in one form or another, without any particularly good reasons. But yeah, I don't think they really fit on the same scale.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% opposed to Cossack's 'everyone should paint because I say so' attitude. But I don't have a problem with him personally, nor do I have any good reason to. He just has an opinion that I am ideologically opposed to.

Darklink hit it on the nail. he is arbitarily biased agasint those who are different from him in one form or another without any particualarly good reason.

I am sorry, there are a few people who stated, they have no time. The only time they have is to game, so that is what they do. Cossacks answer is, bascially calling them a liar, lazy and what ever else he has said.

He dosn't take anyones opinon, and when good rebutals come in he dosn't refute them, just says they are wrong. Than again, he started the name calling first. Calling peoople lazy. Sol what is the difference from calling people lazy and what I said? Really?

Then again, I really went overboard on purpose to show how he acts. What he says is no differnet than what I have said. So to make shure I understand you clearly, what did I say so bad, that Cossack hasn't himslef have said?

No back to reading the last 2 pages.

[HsojVvad]

Just to clarify the racist part. We can agree, when we thing of rascism, it is the colour of the persons skin. Well there is alot of racsim when it's the same colour of a persons skin.

Aslo in racsim, one type of group always thinks they are better than the other group, be it if you have purple colour skin and you think you are better than someone who is green colour skin. The purple colours skin person, thinks he is better than the green colour skin person. They put them down and say insults to them.

Well Cossack has been doing this. So what is the difference between a purple colour skin and calling the green skinned person lazy. What is the difference of a person to call a non painted person lazy for not painting? He is labeling non painting people. He dosn't know their lives or stories and keeps insiting they are lazy no matter what. That is no different tha saying certian ethnic groups are lazy as well. So if saying a certian ethnic group is lazy is rascit, then saying non painted minis group is racsit as well.

I have even quoted Cossack as to why people think he is an *******. No rebutal from him. He thinks he is right now matter what. That is bigotted to a group. But once he first started calling names, that is racist. He didn't do it just once, but over and over again.

So yes, what I have said, is over the top, but just wanted to show how it is. So it's ok for Cossack to call somene lazy, for not painting, but I can't call him lazy because he sits down? It's ok for Cossack to to put down non painting people character because they don't paint, and I can't call him fat because he eats to much and dosn't excerise?

What's the difference? We are both doing the same thing. He puts people down I am putting him down. He puts people down for the choices they make, I put him down for the choices he makes. So what is wrong that I actually did?

[Melissia]

Quite a few people that you're talking to aren't going to pay attention, HsojVvad. They've ignored Cossack's blatant and unashamed trolling, his casually tossing insults, his statements of flat out superiority. Of course you're going to like someone if you act as if all their negative aspects don't exist. It's like if a blatant KKK member came along and people ignored his affiliations and tried to get to know him as a person-- then somehow got offended when anyone dared call him out on his beliefs. People suck like that, and then they wonder why I'm always in a bad mood.

Yes, I am talking from experience here.

[Aldramelech]

Just to clarify the racist part. We can agree, when we thing of rascism, it is the colour of the persons skin. Well there is alot of racsim when it's the same colour of a persons skin.

Aslo in racsim, one type of group always thinks they are better than the other group, be it if you have purple colour skin and you think you are better than someone who is green colour skin. The purple colours skin person, thinks he is better than the green colour skin person. They put them down and say insults to them.

Well Cossack has been doing this. So what is the difference between a purple colour skin and calling the green skinned person lazy. What is the difference of a person to call a non painted person lazy for not painting? He is labeling non painting people. He dosn't know their lives or stories and keeps insiting they are lazy no matter what. That is no different tha saying certian ethnic groups are lazy as well. So if saying a certian ethnic group is lazy is rascit, then saying non painted minis group is racsit as well.

I have even quoted Cossack as to why people think he is an *******. No rebutal from him. He thinks he is right now matter what. That is bigotted to a group. But once he first started calling names, that is racist. He didn't do it just once, but over and over again.

So yes, what I have said, is over the top, but just wanted to show how it is. So it's ok for Cossack to call somene lazy, for not painting, but I can't call him lazy because he sits down? It's ok for Cossack to to put down non painting people character because they don't paint, and I can't call him fat because he eats to much and dosn't excerise?

What's the difference? We are both doing the same thing. He puts people down I am putting him down. He puts people down for the choices they make, I put him down for the choices he makes. So what is wrong that I actually did?

What? Do you actually believe that? Jesus...................

A racist is a person who discriminates against someone because of their race. Full Stop. Its got **** all to do with anything else.

Still getting on my tits.......

P.S. ISpell is free you know.

[Rusty Nail]

HsojVvad go and look up the definition of Racist in a good dictionary, (as a clue Aldramelech is right), and then go and look at Bigot, come back if you need any more help as I'm assuming English isn't your first language.

[Cossack]

"If you don't paint your miniatures, you're a racist bigot."

Hmm....somehow that isn't really the same message.

[Chris Copeland]

It seems to me that there are prejudices and preferences that are acceptable and some that aren't. For instance, being a painting-snob or a tactics-snob (I have my tongue firmly in cheek as I use these terms) are acceptable prejudices. That is probably because, in the grand scheme of things, they are pretty meaningless positions. Racism, on the other hand, is a completely unacceptable prejudice.

Racism is like cancer... it must be fought and confronted at every turn. My question is this: why are we even discussing racism in a forum about liking-or-not-liking-playing-with-painted-toy-soldier?

I haven't heard anyone express any racism. Have I missed something? Doesn't it cheapen the term racism (which is a true evil) by equating it with paintbrush-based snobbery?

So, to sum up: minor prejudices like thinking soccer is a REALLY boring game, being a painting snob, being a tactics-elitist, refusing to see Bruce Willis movies, refusing to buy your child Transformers because you just don't like 'em, and hating Dr. Pepper (blech)... all of these things are minor prejudices and preferences that are acceptable because they just don't matter. Racism is hurtful and evil and is therefore unacceptable. Simple, really...

[Hyperion]

It seems to me that there are prejudices and preferences that are acceptable and some that aren't. For instance, being a painting-snob or a tactics-snob (I have my tongue firmly in cheek as I use these terms) are acceptable prejudices. That is probably because, in the grand scheme of things, they are pretty meaningless positions. Racism, on the other hand, is a completely unacceptable prejudice.

Racism is like cancer... it must be fought and confronted at every turn. My question is this: why are we even discussing racism in a forum about liking-or-not-liking-playing-with-painted-toy-soldier?

I haven't heard anyone express any racism. Have I missed something? Doesn't it cheapen the term racism (which is a true evil) by equating it with paintbrush-based snobbery?

So, to sum up: minor prejudices like thinking soccer is a REALLY boring game, being a painting snob, being a tactics-elitist, refusing to see Bruce Willis movies, refusing to buy your child Transformers because you just don't like 'em, and hating Dr. Pepper (blech)... all of these things are minor prejudices and preferences that are acceptable because they just don't matter. Racism is hurtful and evil and is therefore unacceptable. Simple, really...

A fair point mate, although it sounds a bit relativistic. After all, my prejudices will always be a bigger deal to other people than to me: it's inherent in the nature of prejudice. Just a thought though on the issue of cultural relativism... here in blighty it is almost certain that holding normal core beliefs such as that spousal abuse is never acceptable can net you accusations of racism if you try to suggest that a bloke from some vibrant cultural background should not feel as free to beat his wife as he did back home. To me, it isn't racist to hold standards, it's racist to have different standards for different races.

However, to get back to the point, persons of colour (ie we who paint) are obviously more evolved and sophisticated than you black / white (delete as applicable) primer mud people; at least you can sneer at the troglodyte shiny grey pastic scum though...

[HsojVvad]

Quite a few people that you're talking to aren't going to pay attention, HsojVvad. They've ignored Cossack's blatant and unashamed trolling, his casually tossing insults, his statements of flat out superiority. Of course you're going to like someone if you act as if all their negative aspects don't exist. It's like if a blatant KKK member came along and people ignored his affiliations and tried to get to know him as a person-- then somehow got offended when anyone dared call him out on his beliefs. People suck like that, and then they wonder why I'm always in a bad mood.

Yes, I am talking from experience here.

So true, I will not bother anymore.


What? Do you actually believe that? Jesus...................

A racist is a person who discriminates against someone because of their race. Full Stop. Its got **** all to do with anything else.

Still getting on my tits.......

P.S. ISpell is free you know.

What about sexual orientation? You can be a racsit agasint your own race, it can also be about sexual orientation not just race.


It seems to me that there are prejudices and preferences that are acceptable and some that aren't. For instance, being a painting-snob or a tactics-snob (I have my tongue firmly in cheek as I use these terms) are acceptable prejudices. That is probably because, in the grand scheme of things, they are pretty meaningless positions. Racism, on the other hand, is a completely unacceptable prejudice.

Racism is like cancer... it must be fought and confronted at every turn. My question is this: why are we even discussing racism in a forum about liking-or-not-liking-playing-with-painted-toy-soldier?

I haven't heard anyone express any racism. Have I missed something? Doesn't it cheapen the term racism (which is a true evil) by equating it with paintbrush-based snobbery?

So, to sum up: minor prejudices like thinking soccer is a REALLY boring game, being a painting snob, being a tactics-elitist, refusing to see Bruce Willis movies, refusing to buy your child Transformers because you just don't like 'em, and hating Dr. Pepper (blech)... all of these things are minor prejudices and preferences that are acceptable because they just don't matter. Racism is hurtful and evil and is therefore unacceptable. Simple, really...

So it's not racsit to call people who don't paint lazy, but if we call Mexicans lazy that is racsit? What's the difference, you are still calling to groups of people lazy.

I don't mean what I said, but it is really pretty outrageous what Cossack was saying so i tried to do the same. I just wunder why it's ok to call strangers who don't paint, lazy, and it's not racist but if someone says something about another nationality or race, it's racsit to call them lazy.

As Chris said, racsism is a cancer and needs to be erradicated. So it's ok to label some people something and not others? Racism will never go away then. But back onto unpainted minis.

[eldargal]

This has shot right past Silly and into the Absurd now.:rolleyes:

[Faultie]

This has shot right past Silly and into the Absurd now.:rolleyes:
Yeah...I'm quite sure we're all done here.

At least, those of us that aren't racists are!

[Chris Copeland]

Move along... move along... nothing to see here, folks...

[Kirsten]

[QUOTE=Kirsten;86777]
No, it is a hobby first and foremost. Plenty of people involved in GW never play a game in their lives./QUOTE]


?? Who are these people, the only people I know who don't play the game are people who are not in the hobby...

it is frequently mentioned in the likes of White Dwarf that there are plenty of hobbyists who never play games. Whether you have met them or not has no bearing on the matter.


Dude, you're getting out of line on this. Melissia has a point, one that you completely overlooked re: the 40k hobby because you're zoned in on 40k the miniatures wargame. (Which, honestly, is something that's very easy to do. I'm just as guilty of that as the next person.)

40k has completely eclipsed it's origins of table top toy soldiers. There are videogames, vassal clients, movies, books, cosplay (shudder) roleplaying games, and boardgames that have zero to do with painting miniatures for the table top. I also know people (like my wife) that have zero interest in playing toy soldiers, but enjoy painting them.* That's also part of the hobby. (*Okay, it may just be that she enjoys spending time with me, since she's about as non-gamer as you can get. Outside of Wii Sports/Sports Resort, Tetris & Ms. Pacman, that is.)

Exactly this


This has shot right past Silly and into the Absurd now.:rolleyes:

Certainly quite something. It seems it is impossible for a debate to occur here with certain people making wild insults and claiming to be absolutely unquestionably right in their specific view. Better off just sticking to the painting and modelling side of things I think, especially as the moderators are doing nothing.

[HsojVvad]

I just find this a bit ironic eh? All through High School I was never good enough, because I was too much of a loser. I wasn't good enough for the jocks, but wasn't good enough for the nerds and geeks because I wans't smart enough.

So now I am an adult, and playing games that are not really society acceptable, and I am still not good enough? I just don't get it. I am shure most of us in 40K or who like to play with minitures were shunned from most in school. We were not jock enough or what ever.

Now those people have to pretend they are the Jocks of the Miniture Hobby world now?

Pathetic, just pathetic. We get picked on in school, and now some of us have to do it to others all grown up.

Wasn't it bad enough being school being told how to look or how to act or what to do, now others have to do it when we are all grown up?

Shamefull.

[L192837465]

5 pages and you are all still arguing. You're a bunch of damned fools.

Here, I'll break this into the most straightforward and generic form for all of you idgits still arguing about how someone else plays with their toys.

Proxy and play your army how you think the game dictates. Please note, I used the term "your". Not "their", not "all", not any other word. Focus on your own ***king army and stop judging people on how they choose to spend their money or time proxying (or not) and/or painting (or not). Who cares. Really. Who cares.

If someone told you you were driving wrong and that you needed to drive with a certain tire or whatever because THEY say it's better or more fun for them, would you give in?

If I asked "hey, the world would be an awesome place if you cut off your left leg below the knee so I can cram it down your throat!", would you? Of course not.

Stop acting like you're all the dictators of a god-***med game. That's like telling a kid "you're playing with your dolls wrong."

Idiots.

[Melissia]

It seems to me that there are prejudices and preferences that are acceptable and some that aren't. For instance, being a painting-snob or a tactics-snob (I have my tongue firmly in cheek as I use these terms) are acceptable prejudices.

Being an elitist **** is not acceptable.

[Aldramelech]

So true, I will not bother anymore.



What about sexual orientation? You can be a racsit agasint your own race, it can also be about sexual orientation not just race.



So it's not racsit to call people who don't paint lazy, but if we call Mexicans lazy that is racsit? What's the difference, you are still calling to groups of people lazy.

I don't mean what I said, but it is really pretty outrageous what Cossack was saying so i tried to do the same. I just wunder why it's ok to call strangers who don't paint, lazy, and it's not racist but if someone says something about another nationality or race, it's racsit to call them lazy.

As Chris said, racsism is a cancer and needs to be erradicated. So it's ok to label some people something and not others? Racism will never go away then. But back onto unpainted minis.

When you have something against Gay people, that is Discrimination, not racism. Gays are not a race.

When you say "All people who dont paint are Lazy" that is not racism either, you have not specified a race of people to attach it to. At worst you could call it discrimination.

If you say "All Mexicans are Lazy" that is not racism either, The people of Mexico are not a race, they are a nation. So again this would be descrimination.

If you were to say "All Asian people smell" that is racism. You have singled out a race of people and made an untrue generalization.

Racism and Racist are very, very strong words that if used incorrectly can cause huge offense.

English does not seem to be your first language so, on this occasion I guess allowences need to be made. But now this has been properly explained you need to be very careful throwing that word around.

[Hyperion]

I just find this a bit ironic eh? All through High School I was never good enough, because I was too much of a loser. I wasn't good enough for the jocks, but wasn't good enough for the nerds and geeks because I wans't smart enough.

So now I am an adult, and playing games that are not really society acceptable, and I am still not good enough? I just don't get it. I am shure most of us in 40K or who like to play with minitures were shunned from most in school. We were not jock enough or what ever.

Now those people have to pretend they are the Jocks of the Miniture Hobby world now?

Pathetic, just pathetic. We get picked on in school, and now some of us have to do it to others all grown up.

Wasn't it bad enough being school being told how to look or how to act or what to do, now others have to do it when we are all grown up?

Shamefull.

Who says you were never good enough? I don't want to get too personal mate, but you need to rethink this... so what if you didn't fit a convenient label at school. Where I was there were jockier jocks, geekier geeks and generally far more poplular kids. So what? I'm not at school anymore. You need to stop seeing this in terms of validation and start looking at how society works: do you honestly think adults dont have people telling them how to look act or behave? Are you being serious!? I've been in uniform for the last decade and guess what: that's what I get every single day. EVERY DAY mate: there's a regulation body devoted to inspecting how I act or behave. That's what being grown up is like, if you want a job or to interact with other people. As for social interaction, there are rules for that too; maybe more open to debate but rules nontheless. You go drinking with me you will buy a round like everyone else if you're in the round or you wont get invited back. You go to a wedding and you will apply the dress code or you won't get in. You come paintballing with us, you will call my wife 'Sarge' or she will shoot you in the nuts... This is not picking on you: it's YOU making the effort to fit in with the group you want to socialise with.

[Aldramelech]

Who says you were never good enough? I don't want to get too personal mate, but you need to rethink this... so what if you didn't fit a convenient label at school. Where I was there were jockier jocks, geekier geeks and generally far more poplular kids. So what? I'm not at school anymore. You need to stop seeing this in terms of validation and start looking at how society works: do you honestly think adults dont have people telling them how to look act or behave? Are you being serious!? I've been in uniform for the last decade and guess what: that's what I get every single day. EVERY DAY mate: there's a regulation body devoted to inspecting how I act or behave. That's what being grown up is like, if you want a job or to interact with other people. As for social interaction, there are rules for that too; maybe more open to debate but rules nontheless. You go drinking with me you will buy a round like everyone else if you're in the round or you wont get invited back. You go to a wedding and you will apply the dress code or you won't get in. You come paintballing with us, you will call my wife 'Sarge' or she will shoot you in the nuts... This is not picking on you: it's YOU making the effort to fit in with the group you want to socialise with.

Excellent! (Especiallly the bit about the wife):D

[Hyperion]

Being an elitist **** is not acceptable.


But Melissia, you strike me as being quite the elitist yourself. I know I am, I just dont see the problem with it. Not a **** though. I'm not suggesting you're a **** :rolleyes:

[Hyperion]

Excellent! (Especiallly the bit about the wife):D

Five foot nothing of unrestrained fury, her weapons are viloence, sarcasm and that expression women use when you do something stupid but you have no idea what it was...

[HsojVvad]

When you have something against Gay people, that is Discrimination, not racism. Gays are not a race.

When you say "All people who dont paint are Lazy" that is not racism either, you have not specified a race of people to attach it to. At worst you could call it discrimination.

If you say "All Mexicans are Lazy" that is not racism either, The people of Mexico are not a race, they are a nation. So again this would be descrimination.

If you were to say "All Asian people smell" that is racism. You have singled out a race of people and made an untrue generalization.

Racism and Racist are very, very strong words that if used incorrectly can cause huge offense.

English does not seem to be your first language so, on this occasion I guess allowences need to be made. But now this has been properly explained you need to be very careful throwing that word around.

What you say is true, but there is alot of groups who say this is racsist and not just discrimination, so that is why I said what I said. But I believe I took it too far and for that I am sorry.

I should have thought it out more instead of being angered so fast from trolling posts. I shall learn, we are human after all. We make mistakes.

English is my first and only language. Sadly I rush in without thinking and I make myself a fool from time to time. Then again, I don't claim to be an english scholar either, so when I write, it dons't come out as how I want it.

@ Hyperion I understand what you mean. Again, english is was my weakest subject at school, so when I try to write it out, it dosn't come clear enough. What I ment to say how some of us, got picked on in school and we use to complain about it, now do the same thing but in their hobby.

I dont need to feel any validation or anythign like that. I just don't like someone telling someone else on how to do something. That is what this has come down to. Not painted or unpainted minis, but someone telling someone else what they have to do in their own home, when the said person will never be there.

Me and my son, had a game of 40K yesterday. We had a blast. We had lots of unpainted minis. While they are slowly, and I mean slowly getting painted, who has the right to tell me and my son that we can't play with our unpainted minis?

Nobody has a right to tell anyone how or what to do. But some people keep insisting that they have a right to tell others what and how to do it.

[Melissia]

But Melissia, you strike me as being quite the elitist yourself. I know I am, I just dont see the problem with it. Not a **** though. I'm not suggesting you're a **** :rolleyes:
Elitism is defined, roughly, as "the attitude that society should be governed by an elite group of individuals" (Princeton). Basically, an elitist believes that an "elite" group of individuals should tell everyone how to do everything else, and quite frequently believe THEY are amongst that group and therefor can tell everyone what to do.

I am not an elitist. This kind of attitude is especially stupid and obnoxious in a hobby atmosphere, where the purpose of the hobby is to enjoy yourself and have fun. But instead we get jerkasses like Cossack saying "if you aren't into painting, get out of the hobby" and calling anyone who has unfinished models lazy. Thus elitism-- he's constantly attempting (And failing) to make arguments that he has some kind of authority in the hobby, too, making it even dumber.

No, he and others like him have no authority, they're just random jerks on the internet.

[Chris Copeland]

Being an elitist **** is not acceptable.

I'd agree that being a prick isn't acceptable. There are plenty of normal ways where people indulge in bits of elitism. For instance: I think that NHL hockey is better than AHL hockey. I see it as superior and am happy to say so. Given a choice between tickets to an AHL game and an NHL game I'll take the NHL game. I'll also choose wine over beer, classical over punk, and impressionist over cartoons... all forms of elitism to be sure.

I don't buy this "all things are of equal value" thinking because it doesn't match real life. What I don't do is go about being a prick about it.

My most recent point in this thread was that some prejudices are acceptable because they don't matter much and are not comparable to prejudices that aren't acceptable such as sexism, racism, homophobia, regionalism, etc...

I think that we can agree that being jerks towards folks who enjoy the hobby in different ways that us is unacceptable...

I will continue to look down my nose when I compare punk rock and classical music... but I'll never be a jerk about it... I certainly won't make anyone listen to classical music...

I'd also like to say that I think the jerks in the OP were being exactly that: jerks...

[Melissia]

That is a logically fallacious argument: Just because racism is unacceptable does not mean that being an elitist in other areas is acceptable.

No, they are BOTH unacceptable.

[Hyperion]

@ Hyperion I understand what you mean. Again, english is was my weakest subject at school, so when I try to write it out, it dosn't come clear enough. What I ment to say how some of us, got picked on in school and we use to complain about it, now do the same thing but in their hobby.

I dont need to feel any validation or anythign like that. I just don't like someone telling someone else on how to do something. That is what this has come down to. Not painted or unpainted minis, but someone telling someone else what they have to do in their own home, when the said person will never be there.

Me and my son, had a game of 40K yesterday. We had a blast. We had lots of unpainted minis. While they are slowly, and I mean slowly getting painted, who has the right to tell me and my son that we can't play with our unpainted minis?

Nobody has a right to tell anyone how or what to do. But some people keep insisting that they have a right to tell others what and how to do it.

Well said mate. Which is kind of the point. When I play with my son (who is six) he is allowed to use various extra help (such as roboraptor who is invincible) to retake all or any moves shooting etc and generally to do pretty much as he pleases. As he gets older I will hold him closer to the rules so that should he wish to he can play other people in the manner that they would wish to play the game. There is a season for all things and to paraphrase, this is a hobby with many rooms...
However, I reiterate: people do in fact have a right to tell you what to do, as you do to them, or to put it another way to negotiate when you and they intend to interact (as in playing a game). Ofc if you don't want to play, you don't have to play by the rules. This is just my opinion, hardly a rule...

[Hyperion]

Elitism is defined, roughly, as "the attitude that society should be governed by an elite group of individuals" (Princeton). Basically, an elitist believes that an "elite" group of individuals should tell everyone how to do everything else, and quite frequently believe THEY are amongst that group and therefor can tell everyone what to do.

I am not an elitist. This kind of attitude is especially stupid and obnoxious in a hobby atmosphere, where the purpose of the hobby is to enjoy yourself and have fun. But instead we get jerkasses like Cossack saying "if you aren't into painting, get out of the hobby" and calling anyone who has unfinished models lazy. Thus elitism-- he's constantly attempting (And failing) to make arguments that he has some kind of authority in the hobby, too, making it even dumber.

No, he and others like him have no authority, they're just random jerks on the internet.

Yeah, but it is extended to mean people who appreciate things that the common man (supposedly) would find too complex or difficult to enjoy. I like classical music... you play Sisters ;)

"In politics, the terms are often used to describe people as out of touch with the 'Average Joe'. The implication is that the alleged elitist person or group thinks they are better than everyone else, and therefore put themselves before others. It could be seen as a synonym for snob"

[Melissia]

And yet, I don't consider myself BETTER than someone who likes Ultramarines.

[Chris Copeland]

That is a logically fallacious argument: Just because racism is unacceptable does not mean that being an elitist in other areas is acceptable.

No, they are BOTH unacceptable.

No. There are different levels of unacceptability in this world. I can make out quite well in the real world thinking and saying that classical music is better than punk rock and that impressionist painters' works are superior to the work of cartoonists. That kind of elitism is innocuous... Racism and bigotry aren't acceptable...

Like I said: the unacceptable bit is being a jerk about any of it. The works of the impressionists will be remembered and honored long after everyone has forgotten who Charles Schultze is... That's just the way it is... Elitist? Sure. Acceptable? Sure...

[Melissia]

No. There are different levels of unacceptability in this world.

And yet they are still all unacceptable.

Arrogant douchebaggery is still arrogant douchebaggery whether or not you're arrogant about your race, gender, sexuality, religion, or the fact that your army of little plastic and metal men is painted better than someone else's.

[Hyperion]

And yet, I don't consider myself BETTER than someone who likes Ultramarines.

I know that... I was kidding! That's the whole point of the general misuse of elitism, like racism it's a finger that gets pointed out of context. Social commentators would say to the average joe in blue power armour 'Look at her, Ultramarines not good enough for her? She don't like the things you like therefore she is elitist.' Why, I believe that's why we have the Eton educated Cameron riding around on a bike... :eek:

[Chris Copeland]

And yet they are still all unacceptable.

Arrogant douchebaggery is still arrogant douchebaggery whether or not you're arrogant about your race, gender, sexuality, religion, or the fact that your army of little plastic and metal men is painted better than someone else's.

To be clear: do you contend that we must hold the works of the impressionists in the same esteem as modern day cartoonists? To you, is having the opinion that one of those art forms is superior to the other "arrogant douche-baggery"?

Do you hold that all points of view are equally valid?

[Melissia]

Yes, I WOULD, and I am an artist myself (though not a painter by heart). I've practiced chiaroscuro shading, I've done impressionist paintings, I've drawn lifelike, life sized portraits, even pottery and glazing. I wouldn't argue that any of these forms are better than the other.

They are two completely different forms of art and need to be judged on entirely different levels of quality. Sequential art appeals on a different level than impressionist art, and requires an entirely different set of talents-- and more than just visual art, it requires the art of storytelling. One could actually argue that sequential art (including comics) therefor require MORE talent than impressionist works do, because you are drawing from more than just the visual medium in order to accomplish your goal. Would I argue that? No, just that I would say that they require different talents in different areas.

And don't give me that "history remembers" bull****. History remembers the victors, not the best. And I defy you to try and get the average person to name a single artist from the impressionist movement, or even to identify what exactly that movement IS. Impressionism isn't remembered except by just a few in the art world. Yet Superman and Batman have ingrained themselves in our culture. It's amusing that you seriously try to claim that this form of art is really victorious in the annals of history when they have been all but forgotten by anyone outside of the art world.

Am I saying that this makes it worse than sequential art? No. I am merely providing a counter-argument to your claim.

[CitizenZero]

Nope. The "40k hobby" is more than just wargaming, and only a ignorant would claim that's all it is.

If you want to try and tell me that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch aren't part of the hobby, you will NEVER succeed in making that argument because YOU are wrong. And then of course there's Dawn of War 1 and 2, and soon there will be Space Marine as well, and the 40k MMO.

The "40k hobby" is more than just your skewed, limited view of it. For that matter, these licensed works are much more profitable than GW's own products, so they are a huge boon to the hobby.If fishing is my hobby do I have to accept that fishing video games, sushi, or the card game Go Fish are all part of my hobby? Ooh...what about Fishing Monopoly?

[Melissia]

If fishing is my hobby do I have to accept that fishing video games, sushi, or the card game Go Fish are all part of my hobby? Ooh...what about Fishing Monopoly?
Strawman arguments are failure arguments.

[Chris Copeland]

Then we are down to an "agree to disagree" moment. I do not honor all points of view as being equal. I think that Impressionism is a higher form of art than cartooning, classical music is a higher form of art than rap, that assembled minis are better than unassembled minis and painted minis are better still...

What I won't do is be rude about it like the guys in the OP...

Cheers... Chris

[Melissia]

I agree, not all opinions are equal. Some are grounded in fact, and others are wholly illogical.

I never said everything is equal.

[CitizenZero]

So it's not racsit to call people who don't paint lazy, but if we call Mexicans lazy that is racsit? What's the difference, you are still calling to groups of people lazy.

I don't mean what I said, but it is really pretty outrageous what Cossack was saying so i tried to do the same. I just wunder why it's ok to call strangers who don't paint, lazy, and it's not racist but if someone says something about another nationality or race, it's racsit to call them lazy.

As Chris said, racsism is a cancer and needs to be erradicated. So it's ok to label some people something and not others? Racism will never go away then. But back onto unpainted minis.

NO. YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. Calling people lazy is NOT the same as racism, because at the end of the day they are interpreting your ACTIONS. People who are racist don't take actions into account, they judge you based on a factor which is outside of your control...in this case, RACE. So even though somebody who calls you lazy because you don't paint may be WRONG, in the same manner that some calls all Mexicans lazy is WRONG...it's not the ACTUALLY the same.


I just find this a bit ironic eh? All through High School I was never good enough, because I was too much of a loser. I wasn't good enough for the jocks, but wasn't good enough for the nerds and geeks because I wans't smart enough.

So now I am an adult, and playing games that are not really society acceptable, and I am still not good enough? I just don't get it. I am shure most of us in 40K or who like to play with minitures were shunned from most in school. We were not jock enough or what ever.

Now those people have to pretend they are the Jocks of the Miniture Hobby world now?

Pathetic, just pathetic. We get picked on in school, and now some of us have to do it to others all grown up.

Wasn't it bad enough being school being told how to look or how to act or what to do, now others have to do it when we are all grown up?

Shamefull.
Please spare us...YES, I was picked on in high school...but I got over it and now I am an adult. Which means I can make my own decisions, have my own opinions, and do the things I want...which include picking who I choose to play my little toy men with. No need for melodrama...


And yet they are still all unacceptable.

Arrogant douchebaggery is still arrogant douchebaggery whether or not you're arrogant about your race, gender, sexuality, religion, or the fact that your army of little plastic and metal men is painted better than someone else's.Yes, arrogant douchbaggery is the same as arrogant douchebaggery... ingenious! However, me thinking that my little plastic men are painted better than somebody else's is NOT the same as racism. You seem intelligent, so I am going to assume that you don't honestly believe they are and are merely comparing them to win your fun little internet argument. I am going to refrain from explaining the difference to you.

Can you do me a favor though and start a counter in your signature line that says how many times you say the word "douche" or any iteration thereof? I would find that hilarious and awesome.

[CitizenZero]

Strawman arguments are failure arguments.I guess, I could have put it that way...but would you have LEARNED anything then?

You contend that if I enjoy the hobby of the Warhammer 40k miniature wargame, that I need to sign up for the beta of the 40k MMO? Why? Because it shares a LICENSE?

I kinda like the movie Avatar, I don't wanna buy the toys...

[Melissia]

Yes, arrogant douchbaggery is the same as arrogant douchebaggery... ingenious! However, me thinking that my little plastic men are painted better than somebody else's is NOT the same as racism. You seem intelligent, so I am going to assume that you don't honestly believe they are and are merely comparing them to win your fun little internet argument...so I am going to refrain from explaining the difference to you.

Can you do me a favor though and start a counter in your signature line that says how many times you say the word "douche" or any iteration thereof? I would find that hilarious and awesome.

And yet it remains elitism, and therefor reprehensible regardless of what one is elitist about. Do I find racism-- being elitist about one's race-- reprehensible? Or gender, or sexuality, or religion? Yes, very much so. Do I find elitism in a hobby environment reprehensible? Yes. Does it matter to this argument which one I find more reprehensible? No.


As for the lats part, lol. I should totally do that... but I'm really too lazy.



You contend that if I enjoy the hobby of the Warhammer 40k miniature wargame, that I need to sign up for the beta of the 40k MMO? Why? Because it shares a LICENSE?Do not put words into my posts that aren't there. Read the post itself, not a strawman of it. Did I say that you have to enjoy every aspect of a hobby? No? Then shutup :p

[Melissia]

[delete: double post]

[CitizenZero]

Arrogant douchebaggery is still arrogant douchebaggery whether or not you're arrogant about your race, gender, sexuality, religion, or the fact that your army of little plastic and metal men is painted better than someone else's.


I never said everything is equal.Never say never. :P

[Melissia]

Never say never. :PYou are making less and less sense the more you post.

Are you drunk?

[Aldramelech]

Five foot nothing of unrestrained fury, her weapons are viloence, sarcasm and that expression women use when you do something stupid but you have no idea what it was...

I think we are both the victims of bigamy, we're married to the same woman!

[CitizenZero]

Nope. The "40k hobby" is more than just wargaming, and only a ignorant would claim that's all it is.

If you want to try and tell me that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch aren't part of the hobby, you will NEVER succeed in making that argument because YOU are wrong. And then of course there's Dawn of War 1 and 2, and soon there will be Space Marine as well, and the 40k MMO.

The "40k hobby" is more than just your skewed, limited view of it. For that matter, these licensed works are much more profitable than GW's own products, so they are a huge boon to the hobby.Besides a license, how is the video game Space Marine and the 40k MMO related to the hobby? Because they share a storyline?

If my hobby is reading, and I love LoTR...do I have to accept the LoTR Wargame as part of my hobby?

There is a reason GW doesn't carry video games in their Hobby Centers. It isn't what they DO...GW is NOT a video game manufacturer or merchant...you're playing 6 degrees of separation with the hobby, and failing, to try and ultimately prove a point that is of no consequence anyhow.

Because as a HOBBYIST I get to CHOOSE what MY hobby is. Just like you do, and just like the person you write this response to...so we can define THE HOBBY as whatever we want.

[Melissia]

[snip]

*eyeroll* You're still making no sense.

I said the 40k hobby includes more than just the wargaming aspect. If you're not into the other aspects, that does not change the fact that they're still aspects of the 40k hobby. One can be into 40k without ever having touched a miniature or a paintbrush. One can be into 40k without ever having opened a codex, or read a BL book. One doesn't have to know that Orks reproduce by spores to like 40k, and one doesn't have to enjoy painting to like 40k. You can be into 40k just for the laughs, or maybe you're into it for the roleplaying. Or maybe not.

These are all aspects of the hobby. You do not enjoy all of them? Good for you, or whatever. That doesn't change the fact that they remain aspects of the hobby.

[CitizenZero]

You are making less and less sense the more you post.

Are you drunk?Nope. Not drunk yet...I can usually tell I'm there when your posts actually BEGIN to make sense.

Good times.

[CitizenZero]

*eyeroll* You're still making no sense.

I said the 40k hobby includes more than just the wargaming aspect. If you're not into the other aspects, that does not change the fact that they're still aspects of the 40k hobby. One can be into 40k without ever having touched a miniature or a paintbrush.I agree with your last sentence, and therefore your ACTUAL point. I have seen many a Dawn of War player converted into a hobbyist because of the common ground.

However, the two are not the same HOBBY. They share just that...a common ground.

What I was actually at odds with, is the way you can suggest that somebody else's concept of THE HOBBY is WRONG...which could come off to some people as very elitist. Which we all know is reprehensible.

[Melissia]

However, the two are not the same HOBBY. They share just that...a common ground.

Yes they are. The 40k hobby is a sort of umbrella term for the various hobbies connected to 40k-- wargaming, painting, collecting, roleplaying, computer/console games, and so on. If you want to be more specific you'd say "40k wargaming"-- just saying "wargaming" doesn't indicate you're actually playing 40k at all, and just saying "40k" doesn't mean you're into wargaming at all. Just the same, if you were into reading Tolkien's works, would you say "I like reading", or would you say "I like reading fantasy novels." Or maybe you'd be even MORE specific and say "I like reading J.R.R. Tolkien's works."? I think the latter would be much more clear about your preferences, don't you?

I know several who are into 40k for only the lore and roleplaying. I roleplay once a week with them in a Dark Heresy game, which has been going on for over a year. GW licensed FFG to produce Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch -- would you say that they are not into 40k because they do not collect miniatures?

You would be hilariously wrong.

[CitizenZero]

Yes they are. The 40k hobby is a sort of umbrella term for the various hobbies connected to 40k-- wargaming, painting, collecting, roleplaying, computer/console games, and so on. If you want to be more specific you'd say "40k wargaming"-- just saying "wargaming" doesn't indicate you're actually playing 40k at all, and just saying "40k" doesn't mean you're into wargaming at all. Just the same, if you were into reading Tolkien's works, would you say "I like reading", or would you say "I like reading fantasy novels." Or maybe you'd be even MORE specific and say "I like reading J.R.R. Tolkien's works."? I think the latter would be much more clear about your preferences, don't you?
First off, "The 40k Hobby" is NOT an accepted umbrella term for the various hobbies associated with it...you made that term up.

You COULD say that "40k" is an umbrella term, that contains various hobbies within.

Of course saying "wargaming" doesn't indicate you play 40k. You're making up points so that you can refute them.

I've conceded that "liking 40k" doesn't mean you are into wargaming.

The rest of your post goes off into the realm of strange...where you just state things that are obvious, without actually supporting your argument that the "The 40k Hobby" is a term that means what you want it to mean.

By the definition of "hobby" it is wrong, and by the GW definition of "The Hobby" it is wrong...

[Melissia]

Oh cut the bull**** CitizenZero. YOU don't accept the term, but "the 40k hobby" has been used countless times, and not just by me (google gives it ~47,600 results). Most of the time people say it intending to say the 40k wargaming hobby, but the fact remains that it doesn't have to refer to just that one aspect because there are other aspects of the 40k hobby.

Deal with it.

[scadugenga]

This has shot right past Silly and into the Absurd now.:rolleyes:

Agreed.

[scadugenga]

I think we are both the victims of bigamy, we're married to the same woman!

Sweet Christ, have I found something in common with Aldramelech? ;)

I also have a tiny petite wife (5'3") who is about as fierce as they come. My favorite stories often start out "and then she ran down this purse-snatcher, slammed him up against the car and lectured him..."

She may be "delicate like a flower" on the outside...but she's 100% semtex on the inside, with teflon-coated elbows.

[CitizenZero]

Oh cut the bull**** CitizenZero. YOU don't accept the term, but "the 40k hobby" has been used countless times, and not just by me (google gives it ~47,600 results). Most of the time people say it intending to say the 40k wargaming hobby, but the fact remains that it doesn't have to refer to just that one aspect because there are other aspects of the 40k hobby.

Deal with it.I got 428,000 results...I'll start at the top and let you know when I get to Dawn of War. "Fishing hobby" has 4,360,000 can you start going through those and let me know when you find a single page that supports my theory that Fishing Monopoly should be included in the overall hobby? I mean, there has to be ONE out of those...

[Melissia]

I got 428,000 results...I'll start at the top and let you know when I get to Dawn of War. "Fishing hobby" has 4,360,000 can you start going through those and let me know when you find a single page that supports my theory that Fishing Monopoly should be included in the overall hobby? I mean, there has to be ONE out of those...

Try "the 40k hobby" in quotes. Not putting quotes around them searches for "the", "40", and "hobby".

[CitizenZero]

Try "the 40k hobby" in quotes. Not putting quotes around them searches for "the", "40", and "hobby".Thanks, that narrows it down...I was already 8 pages in...

I never knew that Google searches were such a good way to find factual information cited by qualified people that agree with me...but I wish there was a way to ignore the thousands upon thousands that don't.

:/

[Melissia]

Lol. You said that "the 40k hobby" wasn't an accepted term. I provided evidence to the contrary. All those people there in the search? They don't agree with your assertion apparently, as they used the term.

As for my assertion that 40k is more than just tabletop gaming, that's a matter of fact rather than just opinion. I have provided many examples to support this already...

[Cossack]

Games Workshop doesn't get to define what the hobby of miniatures wargaming is about. This hobby existed long before them and certainly includes much more than their harem of games.

[CitizenZero]

Yes they are. The 40k hobby is a sort of umbrella term for the various hobbies connected to 40k-- wargaming, painting, collecting, roleplaying, computer/console games, and so on.


First off, "The 40k Hobby" is NOT an accepted umbrella term for the various hobbies associated with it...you made that term up.

The rest of your post goes off into the realm of strange...where you just state things that are obvious, without actually supporting your argument that the "The 40k Hobby" is a term that means what you want it to mean.

By the definition of "hobby" it is wrong, and by the GW definition of "The Hobby" it is wrong...


Lol. You said that "the 40k hobby" wasn't an accepted term. I provided evidence to the contrary. All those people there in the search? They don't agree with your assertion apparently, as they used the term.Actually, I said it doesn't mean what YOU want it to mean.

As for my assertion that 40k is more than just tabletop gaming, that's a matter of fact rather than just opinion. I have provided many examples to support this already...Come come now, I have already stated...more than once...that I feel as though there are other elements to "40k."

Which doesn't change the fact that your definition for the term "The 40k Hobby" is inaccurate.

You're posts are structured thusly:
Step 1: Make false claim.
Step 2: Refute a point nobody brought up.
Step 3: Bring up a point that nobody has refuted.
Step 4: State that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, and claim some nebulous "victory"

In reality, everyone knows how this ends...you know that you're wrong, you won't admit it in an attempt to save face, and then eventually you will just ignore the thread altogether and stop posting. Pretending like it never even happened.

Then, when a new thread is open regarding a similar topic...repeat the process.

[CitizenZero]

Games Workshop doesn't get to define what the hobby of miniatures wargaming is about. This hobby existed long before them and certainly includes much more than their harem of games.True, but they get to define what the Games Workshop Hobby is about...as much as you or I get to define it for ourselves...

[Melissia]

some ridiculous crap
My argument has remained consistent: there is more to the 40k hobby than wargaming, collecting, and painting. These three are merely the aspects most associated with it, but they are not the ONLY ones. I have stated this numerous times, repeatedly, in multiple ways, but you have proven too intellectually incompetent to understand, or you just willfully misunderstand because you dislike me. Either way, just shutup already. This argument's already dragged on so ****ing long...

Also, use "your" for that sentence. "You're" is a contraction of "you are", and "you are posts are structured thusly" sounds rather silly.

[CitizenZero]

My argument has remained consistent: there is more to the 40k hobby than wargaming, collecting, and painting. These three are merely the aspects most associated with it, but they are not the ONLY ones. I have stated this numerous times, repeatedly, in multiple ways, but you have proven too intellectually incompetent to understand, or you just willfully misunderstand because you dislike me. Either way, just shutup already. This argument's already dragged on so ****ing long...

Also, use "your" for that sentence. "You're" is a contraction of "you are", and "you are posts are structured thusly" sounds rather silly.I'm honestly surprised that you went on so long without resorting to name calling and the good old internet standby of pointing out spelling/grammatical errors. Kudos.

Is the fact that I don't consider Dawn of War to be an aspect of my particular hobby upsetting to you? Perhaps it's the fact that you are (you're, your) finally realizing that you're becoming the elitist in this situation? You see, I am ok with you defining YOU'RE hobby...not ok with you pretending that I am (I'm) not allowed to define mine.

You don't get to just decide what "The 40k Hobby" means...because what you are actually talking about is "A 40k Hobby"

You won't read this anyway I imagine...somewhere I suppose I said something of the douchiest of douchebaggy proportions...which hints at the response I ACTUALLY expect at this point.

[Cossack]

Take a look at this guy....


http://mysite.verizon.net/krista.smith/davidjones.JPG


He's disabled, can't see well, and his hand shakes so bad he can barely sign a check. He has to scoop his dice up in a box. But look at his army.....

100% painted.

He went with large models because he can't handle normal 'man sized' figures. The jetbikes are painted yellow with dots on the wings so he can tell the units apart. He made simple conversions to show the cannons, as the jetbikes are glued directly to the stands and the cannon attachment got in the way.

He cares enough to put effort into the hobby.

[CitizenZero]

He cares enough to put effort into the hobby.I played a game against a blind guy once, his army was painted...which is neither her nor there. :)

You see, I am ok with you defining YOU'RE hobby...not ok with you pretending that I am (I'm) not allowed to define mine.

You don't get to just decide what "The 40k Hobby" means...because what you are actually talking about is "A 40k Hobby"

So yeah, you're wrong too Cossack.

[Cossack]

I'm not wrong. There's a reason GW sells paint with "Their hobby"....

The figures are supposed to be painted. You might choose not to, but that doesn't change the fact that the hobby is about playing wargames with painted figures.

You're aware that there's other games where you don't need to paint, right?