Phantom Titan

[thelonegrif]

after seeing the pictures of a forgeworld phantom titan i was curious if anyone had heard anything about its psychic twin the warlock or when the rules for it (the phantom titan) will be released. i can only hope sometime early next year for imperial armour 9 but i was just wondering if anyone else heard anything

[scadugenga]

So far it's just a tantalizing dream. Nothing further has come down the pipe.

[fuzzbuket]

try and get you hands on an old armour cast one ?

[DrLove42]

I aksed about it to the guy at the Forge World open day.

The ohantom titan model will be released end of this year/early next year. The rules for it will probably be downloadable PDF of forge worlds website until Imperial Armour 10, which is all about the Eldar and one other imperium "race" (not mentioned...but rumoured Ordo Xenos), and looking at release this time next year.

As for Warlock they said they might release rules for it, either just using the phantom as one, or a conversion kit for it

As for Imperial Armour 9, expected to be announced at the UK gamesday in september, for a christmas release and will be all about Space Marines.

[thelonegrif]

try and get you hands on an old armour cast one ?

lol i have an old armor cast one im thinking about buying a warlock version i saw on ebay but im uneasy about spending close to 700 on it but the head and 2 weapons are so rare this is the second time i have seen the parts in a 1.5 years and this one is a whole phantom body with the warlock head and the three arms that came with it but still having a warlock would be another jewel to to my massive collection but alas me moving back to the states has drained my cash and i cant afford this one

[daboarder]

lol i have an old armor cast one im thinking about buying a warlock version i saw on ebay but im uneasy about spending close to 700 on it but the head and 2 weapons are so rare this is the second time i have seen the parts in a 1.5 years and this one is a whole phantom body with the warlock head and the three arms that came with it but still having a warlock would be another jewel to to my massive collection but alas me moving back to the states has drained my cash and i cant afford this one

well you only really need one of those kidneys

[thelonegrif]

lol the army needs me to have both though :(

[Lordgimpet]

What!! new phantom where I want pics or links if available:P
I have an armorcast one already with a few options I hope they dont deviate off the original look
though im a little confused as FW stated erlierthis year that the reaver was going to be the bigest thing they do, granted that eldar ar more slimline but they quoted that edlar can expect another superheavy tank
and not much else with no intention of a phantom ever.. oh well time to wait

[Lane]

I'm just a but afraid of what GW will do to the rules for the Phantom.

Although I have not used a Revenant I do not see how they can be equal to a Warhound.
You have to hit an Imperial Titan several times to drop it's void shields before you even have a chance to damage it. Then you have to penetrate it's heavier armor and hope it does not regenerate any shields.
Then you have the difference in weapons. Imperials get lasers with range 90", Eldar get range 60". Oh, but that is balanced by the Revenants ability to move 30" in a turn, brilliant I get to spend a turn moving up to range in which the Imperial gets to shoot me and I can not shoot back. Then you have the wonderful rule where I have to move to get my holofield save, so if I get imobilized I do not get my shields. Then I have a choice, try to kill my enemy before I die or damage control moping to get back some mobility.

I won't even go into the rant on disparity between Turbolaser destructors and Pulsars.

IMHO two rules would balance Eldar and Imperial Titans

Holofield save based on the models previous movement.
Immobilized - no save
1-6" -> 5+ save
7-12 -> 4+ save
13-18" -> 3+ save
> 18" -> 2+ save

This could also be tied to the Agile rule, keep the first three speed/ save bands but get +1 save per D6 extra movement. The jump move could be +1 save (3+) since the speed is offset by being predictable.

Redesign Pulsar based on the old Epic rules with dual fire modes.
Pulsar spread beam 90" S=7 AP3 7" blast, lance
Pulsar focused beam 90" S=D AP1 Multi hit*

Multi hit - if this weapon hits roll 1+d3 damage results

Spread beam is weaker than several Imperial weapons.
Focused beam has about the same average number of hits as a weapon with hvy 3 and it's ability to roll 4 tdamage results is balanced by it's much higher chance of a complete miss.

[Lordgimpet]

as with most things it comes down to tactics how to use it effecively.
as for changing the pulsar good idea making more like Epic but not wise as you would have to change
the Scorpion and Vampire also who use the same weapon

Im mixed on the holofields though as i like the smaller option of forcing the oponant to roll a second die taking the lower result, or they could have used the wave serpent field tech. that reduces the incoming STR of a weapon to 8 that be cool

A warhounds shileds can be taken down with smaller fire from other units allowing your lance weapons or D weapons free reign on the armor. after that it has a 2 in 6 chance of getting a shield back per roll on how many structure points it has left, which can be never. as long as we eldar moved in the previous turn
we have a 50% chance of ignoring every incoming hit even if i nudge the model 1 inch forward a turn

I do agree the range of 60 is a bit "Meh" 72 would have been better. but It will be interesting to see what they give a Phantom what would be cool is a formation of a Phantom and 2 Revenants

[SotonShades]

Having played against the Revenant, I can honestly say they aren't a match for a Warhound... They are significantly better!

Admittedly if the Imperial Player gets the first turn, the chance of stopping the Revenant from moving isn't insignificant, but with the number of shots a Warhound can put out I wouldn't worry too much as the Eldar player. If the Revenant gets to move before the warhound can open up... that 4+ save makes it more or less impervious to anything smaller than a Warlord, or maybe a Reaver set up to fire as many shots as possible. The Warhound at least is not a significant threat.

I will agree with you on the range issue, but it is the same for the Eldar at all scales (troops having comparibly shorter ranges compard to imperial troops etc). On the other thand, 60" is still 5 feet, and apart from the largest apocolypse tables, you should be able to get in range after your movement on turn one. If not, keep the thing in reserve, and garauntee it won't be shot until you've moved it.

Finally I would point out the slender nature of the Eldar titans, more so the FW models than the ArmourCast ones. This means that apart from Strength D weapons you really need the hole at the centre of the template to hit them if you want any chance of hurting them at all, and that isn't quite as easy as it sounds with such elogent models, at least not compared to hitting a Warhound. My Warlod is so large that you have to be exceptionally unlucky to miss it at all. Whilest the FW Phantom is larger that the Revenant, it isn't that much bigger and (depending how you build it) could have a similarly miniscule top down profile, limiting the ability to hit it with a blast weapon effectively

[scadugenga]

What!! new phantom where I want pics or links if available:P
I have an armorcast one already with a few options I hope they dont deviate off the original look
though im a little confused as FW stated erlierthis year that the reaver was going to be the bigest thing they do, granted that eldar ar more slimline but they quoted that edlar can expect another superheavy tank
and not much else with no intention of a phantom ever.. oh well time to wait

http://cdn.librarium-online.com/2010/03/fw10-phantom.jpg

FW did a 3-up of one. No idea on a potential release date yet.

[SotonShades]

It wasn't a 3-up... just a sketch model Will Hayes was using to get the proportions correct. FW very rarely do out of scale work as the create the master molds from the original model (often destroying the original in the process).

Even at the Open Day Hayes was working on lower legs, knee joints and knee caps

[thelonegrif]

Well to me then that is good news so we should see one anywhere from christmas to sumer

[Xas]

comparing imperial titans and eldar titans is like comparing apples to oranges.

if the revenant doesnt work in your hands, the playstyle probably doesnt suit you.
if the warhound's shield concearn your pulsar armed revenant you are simply incompetent. Take a squadron of warwalkers or whatnot to lower those two AV12 shields and be done.

then it basically is your 4 destroyer shots, 3 structure points and 4++ save vs his 4 destroyer shots and 3 structure points and bigger footprint (easier to hit).


the only thing I'd change with how the revenant works is to adapt it to the IA:A2 rules of the scorpion. allow it to buy spirit stones (this is HUGHE as right of now a driver stunned is more dangerous than an immobilized result because it takes two immobilized for the titan to be unable to move but the stunned only needs to be rolled one time to shut your holofields down) and make the holofield a simple invul.

[Lordgimpet]

Cheers for the link
looks ok at this stage not a fan of the head though I do like the head near its foot better.
If it is out at the end of the year I know where my bonus is going

[thelonegrif]

well you only really need one of those kidneys

who needs to give up a kidney when your home boy will pick up the tab for you i got my warlock titan

[Lane]

comparing imperial titans and eldar titans is like comparing apples to oranges.

if the revenant doesnt work in your hands, the playstyle probably doesnt suit you.
if the warhound's shield concearn your pulsar armed revenant you are simply incompetent. Take a squadron of warwalkers or whatnot to lower those two AV12 shields and be done.


As I stated I have not had a chance to use the Revenant in a game. We have rolled out combat one on one and the Warhound has the advantage there.

Sure if you add other units to the mix the balance changes. But If Eldar take War Walkers Imperials can take Sentinels w/ HK missiles, or Heavy Weapon teams or LR Terminus.

I will admit that Three Revenant will rip a Warlord apart where a Phantom seems to be at a disadvantage one on one.

[Denzark]

Anyone wanting to get ahead of the game and secure an Armorcast Phantom, so you can play with BoLS rules until IA9 comes out?

PM me, we can come to some mutually beneficial agreement. (You get more resin goodness, I get greenbacks)

[Daemonette666]

http://cdn.librarium-online.com/2010/03/fw10-phantom.jpg

FW did a 3-up of one. No idea on a potential release date yet.
Nice pic. My mate in Darwin NT Australia has both the epicast Phantom and Warlock titans, and I think 2 Forgeworld Revenant titans. Are there any plans to make the head and weapons for the Warlock Titan as well?

[DrLove42]

They said they was considering it. And theres likely to be rules for the warlock in IA10 with the phantom for anyone who converts it before they get the bits out

[Blackhat]

I will admit that Three Revenant will rip a Warlord apart where a Phantom seems to be at a disadvantage one on one.

As I understand it, the Phantom titan was never supposed to be the equal of a Warlord, instead being somewhere in between a Warlord and a Reaver titan.

Someone who knows Epic would probably be able to expound on this better, though.

[Defenestratus]

Having actually performed an in-game test of a warlord (Imperator) versus a Phantom I can tell you that the phantom dies instantly to a warlord.

Against a reaver, my phantom will win hands down.

The Eldar just don't have anything "that big" to handle an Imperator. I'm doing something to fix that though. I've taken a wraithlord sprue to a 3d scanning/prototyping facility. They do a lot of work for the auto industry in fabricating scale models of concept cars.

I've gotten the wraithlord sprues "digitized" and am currently piecing together the way I want the mega-wraithlord to look. When I'm done. I'll take the component files to the prototyping printer, have them printed out.... epoxy casted and then I'll do the assembly. Looking at a model that will stand (probably crouch) about 4.5' tall. Approximately the size of my friend's Imperator. I'll need advice on rules for it. Looking at around 8000 pts probably.

http://velocitysailing.com/images/warmaster.jpg

Thats Kyle telling me what he thinks of my idea.

[Lane]

The Warlord and Imperator are two very different Titans. The Imperator is the 4k pt monstrosity that people think needs to be 4 ft tall. The Warlord, based on proportions of the epic models would be 20"-28" tall and is only 2500 pts.

[Defenestratus]

In that case, I don't know then how a Warlord and a Phantom match up.

I know that in a 1 on 1, it really depends on the way the phantom's saves roll to determine success against a Reaver. Most of the time the phantom wins.

[Duke]

The phant is supposed to be the eldar answer to a warlord, the only thing that can challenge the imperator (totally different from an warlord) would be the ork great gargant IIRC. I saw a phant at bolscon and it was 1.5 - 2 times bigger than a reaver

Duke

[scadugenga]

I've gotten the wraithlord sprues "digitized" and am currently piecing together the way I want the mega-wraithlord to look. When I'm done. I'll take the component files to the prototyping printer, have them printed out.... epoxy casted and then I'll do the assembly. Looking at a model that will stand (probably crouch) about 4.5' tall. Approximately the size of my friend's Imperator. I'll need advice on rules for it. Looking at around 8000 pts probably.


That's a brilliant idea!

What would the cost be for something like that?

[Duke]

I also would like to know how much it would cost to buy one from you! Seriously (Assuming its actual awesomeness = Perceived awesomeness)

Duke

[carrotcolossus]

Redesign Pulsar based on the old Epic rules with dual fire modes.
Pulsar spread beam 90" S=7 AP3 7" blast, lance
Pulsar focused beam 90" S=D AP1 Multi hit*

Multi hit - if this weapon hits roll 1+d3 damage results

Spread beam is weaker than several Imperial weapons.
Focused beam has about the same average number of hits as a weapon with hvy 3 and it's ability to roll 4 tdamage results is balanced by it's much higher chance of a complete miss.

Yeah, except its a destructor so basically if you hit something, you automatically score 1+d3 results with a +2 to the damage table because of AP1 and D. You could kill a warhound in a single hit. That's way too powerful.

[carrotcolossus]

The phant is supposed to be the eldar answer to a warlord, the only thing that can challenge the imperator (totally different from an warlord) would be the ork great gargant IIRC. I saw a phant at bolscon and it was 1.5 - 2 times bigger than a reaver

Duke

Great Gargants are the only thing that can take on a Imperator and have a chance of winning. In Epic, they could win if they could make use of their TCCW. At range though, the Imperator would slay a GG.

[Duke]

I love the whole idea of a Titan close combat weapon...the only thing better Than a power fist is a giant one! BUILDING KICK!

Duke

[Bigred]

In Epic, the Phantom's titan CCW contained a battery of shuriken cannons in the knuckles so it wasn't totally useless outside of assault. But boy oh boy did the Imperials go down fast if they ever let a Phantom with a CCW get in close. It wasn't even fair...

[Lane]

Originally Posted by Me
Redesign Pulsar based on the old Epic rules with dual fire modes.
Pulsar spread beam 90" S=7 AP3 7" blast, lance
Pulsar focused beam 90" S=D AP1 Multi hit*

Multi hit - if this weapon hits roll 1+d3 damage results


Yeah, except its a destructor so basically if you hit something, you automatically score 1+d3 results with a +2 to the damage table because of AP1 and D. You could kill a warhound in a single hit. That's way too powerful.

It's not as powerful as it looks.

First: Against Titans the focused beam has about the same average number of hits (2) as a Turbolaser Destructor. Hard to calculate exactly since the TL-D uses blast. The balancing factor is that the Pulsar would miss 33% of the time. Against vehicles it is a bit more effective, blasts are more likely to scatter off a tank than a Titan.

Second: AFAIK there is nothing in the Vehicle Damage Table that gives +1 for Destructor Weapons, nor does the Superheavy Damage table list a +1 for AP1. Giving the Pulsar focused beam AP1 may be overkill but so is firing any multi shot Destructor weapon at a tank.

The same mechanics would work for the Revenant Pulsar, just lower it to D3 hits.

[Lane]

I've gotten the wraithlord sprues "digitized" and am currently piecing together the way I want the mega-wraithlord to look. When I'm done. I'll take the component files to the prototyping printer, have them printed out.... epoxy casted and then I'll do the assembly. Looking at a model that will stand (probably crouch) about 4.5' tall. Approximately the size of my friend's Imperator.

I don't know much about the pricing on large RP prints but for a 12" figure printed at 600 dpi resolition it's about $1000.

[eldargal]

I emailed Forge World to see if there was still anychance of the Phantom Titan reaching us by Christmas/New Year as we were originally told back at GD Baltimore. Received this response:

Hi,
The Phantom titan will not be released before Christmas as it is not yet finished. When we make a new titan, it usually take 12-18 months to make and then go up to order. At the moment all we can say is that it will be released at some point next year.


Thanks,
Simon Kirkham
Forge World



Oh well. Must admit I thought the 'Phantom Titan' by Christmas seemed a tad ambitious when they only had the basic mock ups ready back in July or whenever it was. Still, a pity, I had put money aside on the off chance it would be ready.

[Gir]

Originally Posted by Me
Redesign Pulsar based on the old Epic rules with dual fire modes.
Pulsar spread beam 90" S=7 AP3 7" blast, lance
Pulsar focused beam 90" S=D AP1 Multi hit*

Multi hit - if this weapon hits roll 1+d3 damage results



It's not as powerful as it looks.

First: Against Titans the focused beam has about the same average number of hits (2) as a Turbolaser Destructor. Hard to calculate exactly since the TL-D uses blast. The balancing factor is that the Pulsar would miss 33% of the time. Against vehicles it is a bit more effective, blasts are more likely to scatter off a tank than a Titan.

Second: AFAIK there is nothing in the Vehicle Damage Table that gives +1 for Destructor Weapons, nor does the Superheavy Damage table list a +1 for AP1. Giving the Pulsar focused beam AP1 may be overkill but so is firing any multi shot Destructor weapon at a tank.

The same mechanics would work for the Revenant Pulsar, just lower it to D3 hits.

Two things:

First, the average result of 1D3+1 is 3, not 2.

Second: According to page 199 of Apocalypse, a Strength D shot is at +1. According to page 103 of Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2 (The apocalypse ruleset updated for 5th edition is in this book), both AP1 and D hits add +1. What you have essentially created is a weapon that is 3 Heavy railguns, you know, the main gun on a Tau Manta.

[Defenestratus]

I hope they release better pictures of the FW phantom - because the ones I saw - I like my armorcast one better.

[Gotthammer]

Thanks for the info EG, my bank balance is very greatful, even if I am not so much.

[SotonShades]

I hope they release better pictures of the FW phantom - because the ones I saw - I like my armorcast one better.

Given the state it was in at Games Day UK this year, I'd be willing to say that most of the pictures you may have seen of the FW are of the sketch model Will Hayes did to work out the proportions of the minal model more than the detail. If I remember correctly, he has so far only gotten as far as sculpting (but not fully finishing) the titan below the waist. This first draft of the sculpt looked so much nicer than the sketch model, and with detail still to do on it. By the time it comes round to being finished, I'm sure it will look much nicer than it does now, and better than the armorcast ones too, based on how the FW and Armorcast revenants look.

The same thing happenned with the Lord of Change Greater Deamon of Tzeentch. Daniel Cockersell's early work on it didn't seem to stand up to the metal GW Lord of Change, but every time I saw bits of it it got better and better until he got to the finish. It just seems to be the way the FW designers work.

[eldargal]

SotonShades is correct, the pictures we have seen so far are of a relatively undetailed mock up, far, far from the finished product.

[Defenestratus]

I think my complaint about it was that it basically looked like a taller revenant. I don't want that. I want something totally unique. Plus with a decent/good paint job, the Phantom looks pretty stunning on the table.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_W-OLykJh4lc/TEXrFiuECRI/AAAAAAAALcI/mGhbE6kAXMY/s640/100_2312.JPG

[SotonShades]

I agree with you on that point. I imagine that when we get round to the detail, it will have been made to be different enough from the Revenant. I still want it to look similarly fragile which is what I always felt was wrong about the armorcast model, though as you said and have shown, with a good paintjob they can still be stunning.

[Lane]

Two things:

First, the average result of 1D3+1 is 3, not 2.


Yes the average of D3+1 is 3, but multiply by 2/3 for BS4 and you get 2.




Second: According to page 199 of Apocalypse, a Strength D shot is at +1. According to page 103 of Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2 (The apocalypse ruleset updated for 5th edition is in this book), both AP1 and D hits add +1. What you have essentially created is a weapon that is 3 Heavy railguns, you know, the main gun on a Tau Manta.

Sorry I did not have IAA 2 available at the time.
IMHO it is good that AP1 affects super heavies and D affects normal vehicles but they should not stack.

It would be nice if GW, not forgeworld, would do a 5th Ed update for Apocalypse.

[DrLove42]

I enjoy +1 for D and AP1...fire prism template combination on the data sheet...so i auto penetrate and chain reaction on a 4+? Don't mind if i do?

[Defenestratus]

I was about to say - the sunstorm formation allows for Str D and AP1.

Its really ubar.

[Duke]

Sun storm is one of the many reasons my elder are effectively banned from appoc games at my flgs.

Duke

[eldargal]

Because the Eldar codex is just soo overpowered in general.:p A couple of decent datasheets hardly make up for the fact that most of our weaponry is overpriced and useless.

[Gir]

Yes the average of D3+1 is 3, but multiply by 2/3 for BS4 and you get 2.

You should probably make that clearer in your post.





Sorry I did not have IAA 2 available at the time.
IMHO it is good that AP1 affects super heavies and D affects normal vehicles but they should not stack.

It would be nice if GW, not forgeworld, would do a 5th Ed update for Apocalypse.

The update is very minor, and just clarifies rules exactly as you would expect, eg: Flyers get a 4+ cover save instead of have the hit downgraded to glancing.

[DrLove42]

Was about to say there were some healthy DE data sheets on Gw...but they've all mysteriously vanished

I'd imagine letting raiders counts as fliers on turn 1, with dark lances than can ignore power fields on titans would be a little mean....


The update is very minor, and just clarifies rules exactly as you would expect, eg: Flyers get a 4+ cover save instead of have the hit downgraded to glancing.

This is the reason Eldar fliers are now ridiculously overpirced...all fliers now get the same save as us, except against the Hydra....